Still detaching and embracing my new normal

[MamaG]

Old thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2950700&page=1

At almost 2 years in since BD1, 1 year since H moved out, I'm living my new life. Loving my new life is on the horizon; I can see it. After all, I have sooo much going for me. So many blessings.

I hope this helps. I do understand how difficult it is to let go. The more you can look for meaning in your actions versus asking why your H is doing his will help.

YES, it does. In the last message you sent, the line that stood out the most was:

I wouldn't say he's being charming... more so that is that he's trying to do the same dance. You have always been there. You have always chosen him first. He is losing it that - and whether or not he still loves you - it's uncomfortable for HIM. Therefore he will find ways to keep the dance going.

The reason is because it would be a 180 for you. It would be a 180 in the dynamic of your relationship. I'm not saying to say anything back to him. In fact - I wouldn't say anything at all in regards to his whining about work. Again - I really think this is more about him trying to make sure the old dynamic is in play versus anything else.

After reading your answer, I considered canceling today's visit to change the water filter or to apply your feedback. I chose to test my ability to follow your guidance. I chose to show H a new dance - no dance! And, in less than 30 minutes, H was back on the road.

180 #1: H arrived and as usual, pulled into the garage and came right in. Instead of yelling down a cheery, "Hi" as I typically would, I kept quiet.

180 #2: I walked down the stairs with a cup of coffee and Dog1. Well is downstairs anyway so no need to come into main home.

180 #3: I guided H right into the room where well is. There's no reason to stare into each other's eyes today to the point of discomfort. Valeska told me to change the dance!
H: Where is tool1 that I leave here?
M: Where it belongs.
H: I don't use it for anything else so it stays here.
M: I'll go get it.

H gets into the repair.

H: Where is tool2?
M: Where it belongs.
H: H reminisces and says a funny of something that happened years ago. I didn't laugh and caught myself being cold (versus detached). I mustered a warm response with a subtle chuckle and he returned to the job at hand. I didn't engage down memory lane as he attempted.
H: Did you know that this was my first hammer?
M: Yes, perhaps you should take it with you.
H: No. (He very quickly responded and his demeanor seemed to change. It was almost like, H realized something was off.)

H finished the repair and handed me the tools.

H: Alright, is there anything else you need done?
M: Nope. I'll flush the pipes out. Thank you.

180 #4: Reluctantly, H puts his coat back on and attempts to gaze into my eyes again. I don't reciprocate; I thank him and open a path for him to leave.

H: What's wrong?
M: Nothing - insert confused look on my face.
H: Are you sure?
M: Yes (said with certainty)

I re-open the path for him to go and he notices. H appears confused and disappointed. We aren't dancing, but H continues to try.

H: Like my new jacket? I thrifted it.
M: Didn't notice it. It looks like one you had before.
H: Yes, it reminds me of one your sister gave me 20 years ago.
M: I guess my sister gives good gifts.

H finally sees that he's overstayed his welcome but instead of leaving, pulls out a chair and proceeds to pet Dog1. WOW, H isn't accepting the hints coming his way.

Learning....H really tests my boundaries and it really does require will power and consistency. I am determined to not dance today! Still, no monster from him. Just what appears to be confusion.

180 #5: H is limping - almost seems exaggerated for me to notice and comment. H looks back for me. I was looking the other way and didn't comment on his pains.

And another attempt to engage thrown my way....

H: Did the garage door spring break?
M: What do you mean?
H: I noticed that you have a box of a spring in the garage.
M: Yes, in the summer.
H: Did you have company x repair it?
M: No. I bought one and had it replaced. (I didn't mention who; he didn't ask. On the heels of our convo this week where a number of repairs were talked about being fixed by my man friend, his face says it all. My guess - and I know I could be wrong - H thinks there may be someone else in my life and fixing 'his' stuff.)
H: Oh

I again, guide H to the garage and am sure to bring tool1 and tool2 out with me so that there aren't sticky fingers.

H: I finally got my license. Can't believe they let me drive without it for 3 weeks.
M: That's good. (I was confused as earlier this week, H asked if his license came to the house yet. Not sure if a change of address was done or not. Who knows?! Oh the confusion.)

180 #6: H is walking slowly and waiting for me to engage. Exaggerating the limp again. I followed him and opened the garage bay for him. If H wasn't sure that he overstayed his welcome, he does now. Oh his face.

180 #7: No warm hug good-bye today.

H: Alright, I'll go run my errands now. Insert huff.
M: Sounds good. Have a good weekend.

I walked back into the house and closed the door before he was even in his vehicle. I listened for his vehicle door and then the garage door to be sure H didn't have time to take anything.

MamaG2.0 is being introduced.

[Valeska19]

MG,
This was a really good interaction on your part. As you said, not cold... but accepting of the situation at hand.


Expect your H to double down on not losing the dance. What this looks like depends on your H. Sometimes it's in the form of anger spew. Sometimes it's in the form that playing the victim hard. Other times it could be in the form of reaching out or being helpful. You know your husband best so try to predict his hand and when he plays his cards... be ready to have a counter.

The hard thing in this stage is to remember that your H is human. Humans have complex emotions. Sometimes LBSers can't comprehend how a WAS could "want out" and still "struggle to let go" But it's very common... in fact... almost every WAS shows some sign of struggle. For you - don't confuse that for positive interaction. You are only recently detached - it's too early in the game for that.

For now - this is about him. Not only until he has lost everything, sat with all of his feelings, worked through his sh!t, that he can have the emotional capacity to say "Is this what I truly want in life". He will then decide whether to let you go or decide to participate in the new dance you created.

You allow him to have that journey. Should you chose - you can watch from a distance. But know that it's still some time off (if ever) and things will strangely feel worse before they feel better.

Again really good job with the conversation. It is so hard to be distanced from the person we love....

... and yet we constantly need to remember to honor their choices.

I got very used to saying that to my X. It pissed her off alot... but it didn't make it any less true.

Happy Holidays MG!

[MamaG]

A short 4 hours after H left, I rec'd a text. As far as I can tell, H hasn't doubled down as Valeska points out. I've got my eyes open though.

I will say that I suspect H is moving through the tunnel. H has dipped a toe or two into depression and may be further along than I thought. Time will tell. I will stay the course and remain detached until outreaches are meaningful. Superficial conversations are of no interest to me.

H: How's the water? (What a strange question to reach out to ask. I presume anchor checking as the dance didn't go quite as he planned.)
M: It's fine. Thx (responded the following day)
H: I'm glad (responded immediately after receiving my text)

And that was the last of our conversation. No Merry Christmas message was sent by either of us.

Talked D through her anxiety and she eventually made it to Christmas dinner. She wanted to go to see a couple family members but could do without a visit with others. After some conversation, she fessed that she was worried that H hadn't gotten her a gift and she didn't know how she'd cope. There's that 'fear' again. I need to work with her on this....as I've been helped here. TY DnJ for the great insight a few weeks back that I can share with D.

In the end, she seemed to have had a great time and only mentioned a couple things that really upset her. I couldn't explain one of them - perhaps you can help me. Basically, about 10 years ago, we bought our dog a collar with sea turtles on it. Admittedly, I don't think it's a great looking collar but here's what interesting. D said that H's dog is wearing the same exact collar. I don't even know how he could've come across it 10 years later. For this reason, she thought H had taken it from the house to put on his dog. Knowing that it's a duplicate, she felt better that it wasn't sticky fingers. Yet, she is now more perplexed about why he'd buy the same exact collar....with sea turtles.

Even stranger to me (and I didn't say this to D) is that his first tattoo while in MLC was one of a large sea turtle with a saying, "If not in this life, in the next". Could his subconscious have attracted him to the sea turtles 10 years ago....and they still have meaning to him? He also bought sea turtle puzzle to put together earlier this year. I'm so confused. Dogs and sea turtles just keep surfacing. Any explanation for what would move him to get a replica of our dog's collar?

H is visiting S tomorrow - after 7 months at his new place, H will see S's apartment for the first time.
And, H called D the day after Christmas to invite her to his place to get her gift that he forgot to take to dinner. As you can imagine, she was crushed especially since she feared that he wouldn't remember her! H isn't winning but I must say that at least there is effort now. She missed his call but texted back later in the day asking him to come to her place instead since he hasn't seen her apartment either. We'll see how this plays out.

D and I baked on the 23rd as we always do. Mom requested that we make a yule log and so we obliged. It was perfect!! We also spent a few hours at mom's to help her prepare for the 24th.

I had a great Christmas Eve and Christmas day (and am hopeful you all did as well). I celebrated all day on the 24th with my family. Lots of food and laughs. The entire family went to mass as we do every year. We took up the entire church pew. It warmed my heart. My babies woke up here for Santa on Christmas morning and then I hosted the usual breakfast for my family.

H's sister expressed disappointment through D that she didn't get invited to come for breakfast - she expressed the same disappointment last year too. I'm just not ready for that and so I kept the invite to only my family. No regrets.

D and I enjoyed our once a year 16 bean and ham soup. She loves that I make it with the leftover Christmas ham every year. It warmed the insides on a cold winter day.

Had the kids, BF and GF over for homemade lasagna and the requested garlic bread today. I can make a mean lasagna if I must say so myself. Yet, they insisted on a bowl of the soup before digging into the lasagna. Kids took the leftovers to indulge later this week.

I'll be exchanging gifts with several folks over the next couple days. And, I'm looking forward to lunch with a friend before returning to work. Yes, work is on the horizon. yuck.

I rec'd an invite from H's aunt for NY's day. Still haven't decided on whether to go or not. Invites from his family continue coming my way. I'm really considering popping in to see everyone I've called family for 30 years. We'll see if D is open to going with me.

Wishing everyone a healthy and joyful 2025. And, thank you all for listening, reading, commenting, coaching. We'll get through this together and come out better people.

[Valeska19]

A short 4 hours after H left, I rec'd a text. As far as I can tell, H hasn't doubled down as Valeska points out. I've got my eyes open though.

I will say that I suspect H is moving through the tunnel. H has dipped a toe or two into depression and may be further along than I thought. Time will tell. I will stay the course and remain detached until outreaches are meaningful. Superficial conversations are of no interest to me.

H: How's the water? (What a strange question to reach out to ask. I presume anchor checking as the dance didn't go quite as he planned.)
M: It's fine. Thx (responded the following day)
H: I'm glad (responded immediately after receiving my text)

Really good detached answer here. Next step would be to not answer at all. It's not his concern and not worth a reply. You two are no longer teammates in this life.

And that was the last of our conversation. No Merry Christmas message was sent by either of us.

I have been there so I empathize will all the feelings that came up with that. It's a hard step to detachment that doesn't feel great. But good work managing the hard!

Talked D through her anxiety and she eventually made it to Christmas dinner. She wanted to go to see a couple family members but could do without a visit with others. After some conversation, she fessed that she was worried that H hadn't gotten her a gift and she didn't know how she'd cope. There's that 'fear' again. I need to work with her on this....as I've been helped here. TY DnJ for the great insight a few weeks back that I can share with D.

In the end, she seemed to have had a great time and only mentioned a couple things that really upset her. I couldn't explain one of them - perhaps you can help me. Basically, about 10 years ago, we bought our dog a collar with sea turtles on it. Admittedly, I don't think it's a great looking collar but here's what interesting. D said that H's dog is wearing the same exact collar. I don't even know how he could've come across it 10 years later. For this reason, she thought H had taken it from the house to put on his dog. Knowing that it's a duplicate, she felt better that it wasn't sticky fingers. Yet, she is now more perplexed about why he'd buy the same exact collar....with sea turtles.

Even stranger to me (and I didn't say this to D) is that his first tattoo while in MLC was one of a large sea turtle with a saying, "If not in this life, in the next". Could his subconscious have attracted him to the sea turtles 10 years ago....and they still have meaning to him? He also bought sea turtle puzzle to put together earlier this year. I'm so confused. Dogs and sea turtles just keep surfacing. Any explanation for what would move him to get a replica of our dog's collar?

I think the answer you give to her is the same you need to give yourself. That you understand how confusing this all is but the truth is that you have no idea what has meaning in your H's life and looking at dog tags for "signs" is what we call a cheeseless tunnel.

If he got it because there is no emotional attachment - it changes nothing.
If he does get it because it has meaning to him - it changes nothing.

Trying to understand why someone does something doesn't make it better. Even when there's an answer. It's a very natural thing to do in the beginning but staying there leads to long term affects. We stay in the past versus living in the present. It prevents progress, acceptance, and forgiveness.

Again... this is about getting comfortable with the BOTH AND sentences. He can miss his family AND still move forward with the D. I know it's hard. It has to be almost a daily practice.

H's sister expressed disappointment through D that she didn't get invited to come for breakfast - she expressed the same disappointment last year too. I'm just not ready for that and so I kept the invite to only my family. No regrets.

Good for you. Divorce affects the whole family. You can be kind and enforce your boundaries.

I rec'd an invite from H's aunt for NY's day. Still haven't decided on whether to go or not. Invites from his family continue coming my way. I'm really considering popping in to see everyone I've called family for 30 years. We'll see if D is open to going with me.

My question to you is why? I could understand if your D was initiating the visit and needed support.. but why not try and push yourself for a new tradition?

I got along great with my X's family so it was hard losing them w/ the marriage. But outside of a funeral, I kept my distance. You can still be kind when you see them... but staying in their lives, is in turn staying in his life. A 180 would be to try and let go of it all. Painful.. but surrendering to the truth.

Wishing everyone a healthy and joyful 2025. And, thank you all for listening, reading, commenting, coaching. We'll get through this together and come out better people.

Happy New Year MG! You've made some really hard progress this year. You got this.

[MamaG]

I spent the last 36 hours in solitude. Feeling. Thinking. Healing. And even some ruminating. I’m emotionally drained.

D called in the midst of my 36 hours. Regretfully, I shared that H has been talking with another woman. It was over the phone as we just were talking. Her words said she was fine, but her actions said she needed to go. I told her it wasn’t her fault and that H and I love her very much. This shouldn’t come between her and her parents. This is between H and I.

In that conversation, I also learned that she’s known about the sailing trip that he’s going on since June. Apparently it’s a 15 day trip with a large group. Certainly this has contributed to further emotions, as I’m pretty sure OW is going.

D asked me to tell S. And now I try to figure this out.

With gratitude, I declined New Year’s invite.

I’m trying. I’m really trying to do the right thing. It just hurts and I know you all know so I can share in this space.

[Caligirl]

MamaG

Today would be the day to get out and GAL .

Try not to focus on this sailing trip . You are causing yourself unnecessary pain . While they are deep in this there is nothing you can do but save yourself . You are doing good . I agree with declining new years . My famous line for a very long time when my children mentioned things about H was “ oh that’s nice “. About a year ago one of the children said to me . Daddy just wants to live his life and you should just let him . This was after him running a muck for a few weeks and just being flat out vulgar to me . Same response “oh that nice “. Knowing me I probably booked another trip alone away with the kids after they said it . One of the hardest things about any of this is the children . Innocent in the entire process . Just keep loving on them .

I understand the regret of a child whether adult or younger being told of an A. One of my younger ones was there when I got the letter . I had told H we would talk about it when the kids were not around and he just wasn’t having that . Oh it was not pleasant . H then decided to tell all the children still no idea why . Guess he figured the little one would talk so might as well , which she did. Keep your focus on your relationship with your children . Good idea telling her it’s between you and H .

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

No Merry Christmas message was sent by either of us.

That’s a difficult step. Well done!

Letting go H. Not reaching out. Giving him to God.

You are detaching and healing! Keep doing so with kindness and compassion; with a soft squishy heart. Better, not bitter. (((Hugs)))

In the end, [D] seemed to have had a great time and only mentioned a couple things that really upset her. I couldn't explain one of them - perhaps you can help me. Basically, about 10 years ago, we bought our dog a collar with sea turtles on it. Admittedly, I don't think it's a great looking collar but here's what interesting. D said that H's dog is wearing the same exact collar. I don't even know how he could've come across it 10 years later. For this reason, she thought H had taken it from the house to put on his dog. Knowing that it's a duplicate, she felt better that it wasn't sticky fingers. Yet, she is now more perplexed about why he'd buy the same exact collar....with sea turtles.

Even stranger to me (and I didn't say this to D) is that his first tattoo while in MLC was one of a large sea turtle with a saying, "If not in this life, in the next". Could his subconscious have attracted him to the sea turtles 10 years ago....and they still have meaning to him? He also bought sea turtle puzzle to put together earlier this year. I'm so confused. Dogs and sea turtles just keep surfacing. Any explanation for what would move him to get a replica of our dog's collar?

I’m glad to see D worked through her fear and anxiety and made it to Christmas supper.

The exact same dog collar is interesting. As is, the sea turtle tattoo and puzzle.

A crisis is subconsciously driven from unrealized and unreconciled past trauma(s). The MLCer “typically” unknowingly and unwittingly recreates the events. They need to grow up from when they were emotionally stunted.

Unfortunately this is a crisis. Emotionally driven well beyond logic and reason. The MLcer cannot simply be reached or talked down, they are well beyond that. They are consumed. The crisis must, and will, run its course.

They often recreate their torment. With various bits and pieces as remembered, or misremembered, from their often childhood lexicon and viewpoint. The AP being a surrogate parent or authority figure to rebel against and grow up from. And all that time travel. Living, reliving, their past. Over and over.

They recreate their past torments. While running from their ceaseless torments of the past. It’s a witch’s brew. Not well designed for healthy healing nor stability. Alas, that is a crisis, and illustrates the significant past trauma they struggle with.

Some, few, do grow up. Discovering and facing their pains. Others languish in their crafted hellscape. Running, returning, running; stuck in a loop.

Is the dog collar significant? Likely so. How? I don’t know. Every crisis is individual. Like every person is individual. H sought out a rescue dog a couple of months ago, and an exact replica collar. A crisis has all kinds of weird stuff and behaviours. Chalk this up to recreating/reliving while also running. It’s H’s attempts at trying to sort his stuff out. (Gosh, it’s so good we aren’t along for that ride.)



It’s sounds like your festive season was full of yummy foods and goodies! Just wonderful! A full as I am, I still would love to taste the 16 bean and ham soup.

With gratitude, I declined New Year’s invite.

I agree with you. It’s H’s family. As much as you are, have been, friends for decades, it’s his family.

I got along great with my extended family. However, divorce has many causalities. It was best I stepped away. It’s her family.

D called in the midst of my 36 hours. Regretfully, I shared that H has been talking with another woman. It was over the phone as we just were talking. Her words said she was fine, but her actions said she needed to go. I told her it wasn’t her fault and that H and I love her very much. This shouldn’t come between her and her parents. This is between H and I.

In that conversation, I also learned that she’s known about the sailing trip that he’s going on since June. Apparently it’s a 15 day trip with a large group. Certainly this has contributed to further emotions, as I’m pretty sure OW is going.

It is difficult. Dad tells one kid something, maybe the other something else. No one knows what to share or who to tell or what to do.

Some advice (which worked for me):

Continue to be honest and stick to the facts, when stuff comes up. Let the kids form their own feelings and opinions. You can discuss those, if/when they bring them up.

Tell the kids it’s ok not to share stuff with you. It’s ok to know stuff about Dad and not tell you. Tell them, you are ok with it. However, if they are having troubles or problems or need/want to discuss anything with you, they can! No matter what! Whatever the topic. Dad stuff included.

I’m trying. I’m really trying to do the right thing. It just hurts and I know you all know so I can share in this space.

Good.

Doing the right thing often has times of doing the wrong thing. Funny thing, even the wrong thing usually ends up part of the right thing when you: Own your mistakes. Talk about them. Grow from them.

It’s part of being their living example. Part of leading. The future is uncharted, of course you’re going to make the odd incorrect, less than perfect, turn. It’s that wonderful tapestry of life.

D asked me to tell S. And now I try to figure this out.

I suspect S knows more than he’s told you.

Might want to ask D why she feels son needs to know. Why she feels it has to come from you. Perhaps daughter and son need some form of “it’s ok to talk to each other” from you. It’s odd uncharted territory for them too.

All my best!

D

[MamaG]

DnJ, Valeska, Caligirl, Grok and others, I find it bittersweet that you've gained such deep insight into midlife crises. While I'm truly sorry that you've had to navigate this difficult path, your journey has become a source of wisdom and comfort for so many of us. Your responses, filled with compassion, understanding and 2x4s, offer me a lifeline of hope, reassurance and direction. The kindness in your words is deeply felt and cherished. Thank you for being such a blessing. Let's see what 2025 has in store for us.

Also, you cannot expect H to tell you stuff first, or not to tell the kids, or friends, or whomever.

Yes, it would be nice if H would speak to you first. Of course, if he would/did he wouldn’t be where he is.

While posted on RegretfulLA's thread, these words helped me realize that H doesn't share things with me like he did. H would communicate with me numerous times a day and in various methods - enmeshment level sharing. It was often about work and tasks...little emotion. I knew every step he took to the point of when he went to the bathroom. We were in constant communication (until we weren't). My kids knowing about the sailing trip in June set something off in me a few days ago....the awareness that H no longer shares with me (sometimes I feel slow to learn as clearly H not sharing is obvious). But, the reality hit me that H doesn't run for the phone to tell me all that transpires in his life. The good, the bad and the ugly things that transpire. I know this is MLC behavior and clearly I know we aren't talking much. Yet these words brought to light what I was feeling and didn't realize it at the time. Forget the fact that H may not have told me for a variety of reasons. I realize that while I clearly wish H wasn't going on this trip with OW, if it was a guy trip that he shared with me about, I'd be so happy for him. I'm shaking my head. Sometimes I wonder why I love H so much. Reality: I'm no longer the person H chooses. It hurt. I was in a near panic attack with the awareness and pain. More healing....

The best you can do - lead by example. Be the strong stable parent.

I've been giving this a lot of thought. S is so much like H. Can talk for hours about superficial things. Dives deep into work and feels such satisfaction from his accolades. It's so rare that feelings come through in discussions. Emotions are rare.

I brought this to his attention about a month ago. In short, I told him that I wish I had raised him a bit differently. Immediately, S took offense and asked what was wrong with him that he needs changing. (Criticism, even perceived criticism, is not well rec'd by dismissive avoidants.) I clarified that I wish that we talked more about his feelings/emotions through the years bc suppressing feelings isn't healthy. I told S I wish I knew more about how he feels about things. S was receptive when I said, "I wish he was born with a manual on how to raise a child." We laughed and S agreed that I did the best I could and started to talk me through what I great job I did. It was a beautiful moment but we haven't talked feelings since then. If I share my feelings, S is receptive to listening. Doesn't expand though. How do I get him to open up without making it look like that's what I'm doing? Or do I come clean (again) and talk through the possibility of generational behavior that he may pick up?

Continue to be honest and stick to the facts, when stuff comes up. Let the kids form their own feelings and opinions. You can discuss those, if/when they bring them up.

With S, nothing comes up. Strong barrier here that I'd like to soften so I can help. I also realize that I can only control me. Trying to strike a balance so as to not give up on S, all the while questioning if it's the 'fixer' in me that can't let go. Thoughts? I thought I could throw in some comments on this when gently letting him know about OW.

A crisis is subconsciously driven from unrealized and unreconciled past trauma(s). The MLCer “typically” unknowingly and unwittingly recreates the events. They need to grow up from when they were emotionally stunted.

Unfortunately this is a crisis. Emotionally driven well beyond logic and reason. The MLcer cannot simply be reached or talked down, they are well beyond that. They are consumed. The crisis must, and will, run its course.

They often recreate their torment. With various bits and pieces as remembered, or misremembered, from their often childhood lexicon and viewpoint. The AP being a surrogate parent or authority figure to rebel against and grow up from. And all that time travel. Living, reliving, their past. Over and over.

They recreate their past torments. While running from their ceaseless torments of the past. It’s a witch’s brew. Not well designed for healthy healing nor stability. Alas, that is a crisis, and illustrates the significant past trauma they struggle with.

Some, few, do grow up. Discovering and facing their pains. Others languish in their crafted hellscape. Running, returning, running; stuck in a loop.

Good reminder. Good grounding.

"The AP being a surrogate parent or authority figure to rebel against and grow up from. "
Can you elaborate on how this may take place? What may be said as a way to grow? What may transpire that H grows from? What could it look like in their interactions.

Today would be the day to get out and GAL .

Thank you for saying this. I immediately jumped off the couch and GAL'd. I got myself an hour massage, visited with mom/dad, talked with a GF, went for a cupping session and followed it up with acupuncture to address anxiety/stress/sleep issues. It was a great day! Your friendly reminder got me out of a rut.

My famous line for a very long time when my children mentioned things about H was “ oh that’s nice “.

I need to adopt this approach. Sometimes, I'm so curious though. Curiosity doesn't always end well.

Off to making a veggie platter for tonight's visit with GF. Several of us are ringing in the new year with Chinese food and some games.

Love and hugs to all!

[Valeska19]

DnJ, Valeska, Caligirl, Grok and others, I find it bittersweet that you've gained such deep insight into midlife crises. While I'm truly sorry that you've had to navigate this difficult path, your journey has become a source of wisdom and comfort for so many of us. Your responses, filled with compassion, understanding and 2x4s, offer me a lifeline of hope, reassurance and direction. The kindness in your words is deeply felt and cherished. Thank you for being such a blessing. Let's see what 2025 has in store for us.

No problem. My BD happened when I was 28 so not quite a MLC situation - but I find almost all divorces have a similar flow. At 42 - I'm so detached from the situation its like looking at a storybook. I remember that there was tremendous pain, but no longer really feel any of it. I wish other parts of my life were that easy...lol

I've been giving this a lot of thought. S is so much like H. Can talk for hours about superficial things. Dives deep into work and feels such satisfaction from his accolades. It's so rare that feelings come through in discussions. Emotions are rare.

I brought this to his attention about a month ago. In short, I told him that I wish I had raised him a bit differently. Immediately, S took offense and asked what was wrong with him that he needs changing. (Criticism, even perceived criticism, is not well rec'd by dismissive avoidants.) I clarified that I wish that we talked more about his feelings/emotions through the years bc suppressing feelings isn't healthy. I told S I wish I knew more about how he feels about things. S was receptive when I said, "I wish he was born with a manual on how to raise a child." We laughed and S agreed that I did the best I could and started to talk me through what I great job I did. It was a beautiful moment but we haven't talked feelings since then. If I share my feelings, S is receptive to listening. Doesn't expand though. How do I get him to open up without making it look like that's what I'm doing? Or do I come clean (again) and talk through the possibility of generational behavior that he may pick up?.

Unfortunately you can't. You have to learn to accept him for who he is. Of course - you can always leave the door open for him to chat, be receptive to when he opens up. But otherwise - stay silent. Let him come to you. I am working on this alot in 2025. With my friends, colleagues. This is the year of silence for me. If they want/ready for the help - they will ask. I have faith in my character and trust they know I am here for them.

With S, nothing comes up. Strong barrier here that I'd like to soften so I can help. I also realize that I can only control me. Trying to strike a balance so as to not give up on S, all the while questioning if it's the 'fixer' in me that can't let go. Thoughts? I thought I could throw in some comments on this when gently letting him know about OW.

I am going to say this as someone who is NOT a parent... but honestly... I'm not sure it's your place to. I keep coming back to the fact that he is grown. They both are. You slipped telling your D (your words not mine), don't repeat it by telling S.

I agree with DNJ though - if she needs to tell him for support so they can go through it together with sibling love - support it.

Secrets are no fun. They can be very very destructive.

[MamaG]

So no text from H last night to wish a happy new year to me. Unlike last year, he did text the kids. Yay!!!

Today I get a very superficial text without any happy new year wishes.

H: I need to grab a couple of clothes from the house.

Suggestions on my response?:
I packed up your belongings in the summer; please make sure to take everything you need. The only day I can this week is Friday at 6.

[Valeska19]

So no text from H last night to wish a happy new year to me. Unlike last year, he did text the kids. Yay!!!

Glad he texted the kids. Trust me when I say it would hurt either way.

Today I get a very superficial text without any happy new year wishes.

H: I need to grab a couple of clothes from the house.

Suggestions on my response?:
I packed up your belongings in the summer; please make sure to take everything you need. The only day I can this week is Friday at 6.

I would ignore it and not respond. This is only a short term band-aid.

The real question is are you ready to take the bigger step? He's going to keep coming over until you stop it.

If you truly want this to stop (which FYI is another painful step of surrendering) it would be.

"I think it is time you grab all of your things so you no longer need to continually stop by. I have packed up all and it is located in the garage You can grab them on Friday at 6. If that doesn't work. please provide an alternative time. Whatever you do not grab will be put up for donation"

Honestly - He sounds like one of my kids in daycare. That is no way to ask to come to the house. What a manbaby.

[MamaG]

Totally agree that he is definitely being a baby and perhaps even a coward.

he is looking for clothes to take on his sailing trip. Potentially even a suitcase or two from the house. I’m totally comfortable with not responding. After all, there was no question asked.

Inevitably, he will figure that out and send a text with the question in the next couple of days at which point I can respond with your suggestion.

It certainly is possible that he just comes here at a time that he thinks I’m not home or that I’m actually not home, which is worse. This is not me acting out of fear as much as it is my reality. At the end of the day, he has access to the house.

[DnJ]

Hello MG

”The AP being a surrogate parent or authority figure to rebel against and grow up from "

Can you elaborate on how this may take place? What may be said as a way to grow? What may transpire that H grows from? What could it look like in their interactions.

First off, remember the affair is merely a symptom of a deep emotional problem that already existed. A problem that was buried and hidden away many years ago.

The replay stage of a crisis is a time of emotional regression. The MLCer is transported back to “when” they were younger. The time of their trauma(s). The time when their authority figure(s) let them down. For most crisis folks, the authority figure is one or both parents.

Once a crisis starts the person is drawn in, is consumed. They become the opposite of who they once were. They regress and relive from their emotional stunting in an effort to grow up.

As they are different and depressed and confused - the major hallmarks of a crisis - they begin to subconsciously search for a partner that is just like them. An emotional “mirror” of them. Broken attracting broken.

Parents raise their children to be just like them. The child taking on, adopting, similar attitudes, thinking, ways of doing things, etc. And the problems handed down.

The affair partner is just like the MLCer’s parents. The crisis individual subconsciously, unwittingly, seeking and finding an emotional “mirror” of their parent. To outgrow a wrong dynamic, that same dynamic has to be recreated to grow up from.

With this, best case crisis scenario as plenty of MLCers get stuck, the MLCer will learn to make the emotional break they should have made with/from their parents as young adult which they never did. They never became full mature adults as they were meant to be. This is the purpose the affair partner serves.

Contrary to popular belief, sex is not the primary reason for an affair of this kind. Unless the crisis person has a sexual-based trauma, complication, or some such. The MLCer is using the AP for emotional needs. The AP is using the MLCer for money, security, upkeep, whatever. It’s the MLCer’s “inner child” who begins and maintains the affair.

The crisis dredges up this hurt “inner child”. The MLCer subconsciously seeks and finds someone like themselves (and parents). The MLCer is hurt and desperately seeking that unconditional love they never received as a child. The AP, the emotional “mirror” reflects back exactly that. Without judgement. Without reservation. The AP fitting the emotional needs of the MLCer, for a time.

Even if the affair partner is not quite a mirror, the MLCer will ignore those parts. So desperate they are. So misguided their feelings. They will confusingly mistake this crafted dynamic as “soulmate” or “true luv”. Neither of which is true.

The affair, the crisis, is about the most painful trauma of their childhood. The affair is all about control, emotional blackmail, manipulation, and misplaced responsibilities. All issues that were created back in their childhood.

As I said, the AP fits for a time. And nothing lasts forever. As the MLCer starts to grow and mature with their self, they start to outgrow this “need”, this surrogate parent. The illicit relationship has outlived its usefulness, The MLCer starts looking for a way to exit/end the affair. This usually get really messy.

The MLCer wants out, but doesn’t know how to. And wants as little drama as possible. The AP becomes desperate and will employ many dirty tactics.

The growing/waking up MLCer realizes just how far they’ve fallen. How they threw their morality in the gutter. All their teenage-like behaviours which no one could tell them anything of. For they felt they knew it all. They had the world by the tail. In time, they find how very wrong they were. And how much they threw away.

The MLC affair ends when the crisis person has no further “need” of it, and they grow strong enough to end it. Until then, they are deep in infatuation and there is not one thing anyone can do about it.

As LBS, we are left to walk our life. Live our life. Love our life.

Be kind to your once loving, now crisis spouse. Do nothing, say nothing you will regret later. The midlife crisis person may not remember the good you did, but they will recall all the bad things and how you treated them while they were within the depths of their emotional abyss.

Besides, what would it serve you. Seek to forgive instead.

D

[MamaG]

The cold and immature text on 1/1 without NY wishes was just the beginning of interactions. Things didn't go as I expected. Not surprising since we know to have no expectations. I wasn't prepared for how things unfolded and I felt Him take over. I love giving things to the almighty but can be left in confusion which makes me wonder if it was God or the other guy.

How did it play out?
I ignored the 1/1 text. Nothing on 1/2. On 1/3, I get a text mid-afternoon that he's coming to the house to get a coat. No other comments. No questions. H didn't think I was home and was telling me that he was stopping at the house. This is the first H has done this.

Nonetheless, I didn't respond to the text and 10 minutes later, H showed up at the house. H carried in a package that had been delivered at the garage and came in with a subtle limp - not as deep as in Dec.

I meet him downstairs and take the package from him.

M: Thanks.
H: I coming to get my coat. I have 30 minutes and am leaving for my trip.
M: Oh, I didn't know when you were going.
H: I told you I was going in Jan. (I stared at him in confusion. Exactly how was I to know when he was leaving? I digress.)
M: Your belongings are all down here. I told you I packed your stuff up in July. Remember? (Walking him to the space where his boxes are.)
H: (He has no words. His eyes land on a pile of boxes all neatly stacked in several piles.)
M: It's in there somewhere. Do you ever plan to come get your things?
H: Yes, I will.

H is holding back words and emotions while hiding behind a poker face, a mask. It was hard to tell what was running through his head. I just stared back at him.

H: It's alright. I don't need it.

H walks out of the space and towards the garage. Standing at the door, he looks back at me. I stare at him with no words. I feel myself melting. I wasn't prepared for this interaction and I know he's off to a trip on waters. Running through my head is the anxious attacher that remains to be healed.

H: What?
M: Nothing.
H: Bye

His stare and word felt so cold and emotionless. Possibly due to awareness of his reality that his past sits in boxes in the basement.

M: Can I have a hug? That is, if you want one too.
H: Yes, I'd like one and he walks over and embraces me.

I feel tightness and warmth. I melt again. Loving every second and feeling relief. My head is racing as I know this isn't DBing yet I felt the intensity and carry on.

M: Alright, you gotta go. Have fun and please be careful. Can I ask you to let me know that you've arrived safely?
H: Yes. What happened to your upper lip?
M: Long story.

After a bit of just looking at each other, I said, "It needs a boo-boo kiss."

What in the whole world am I doing? Am I testing him? This isn't DBing! Yet, it felt so right. And this makes sense since DBing is still counterintuitive. Temptation? Who knows.

For me, it was wonderful to see and connect with my long lost husband whom I miss dearly. Even if the connection was only 1-way and it was with the alien.

Without hesitation H comes over and kisses me. H was gentle and passionate. Not the teenager behavior from just a year ago. It was different than what I've felt. Clearly, I know that this is temporary but even temporary was welcomed. Have I mentioned how much I miss my H?

While he turns the other way, my eyes glance at the wedding band he's sporting on this 2 week vacation with 10+ people, including his HS friend and EA. While I can't say why H continues to sport his band, I realize that he's wearing it despite not thinking I would be home when he stopped in.

At this point, I realize that I may be erasing DBing measures I've worked so hard for. I'm questioning if I'm going back on some unspoken boundaries? Contradicting how I've behaved? I did a 180 reverting back to the wife he recognizes. Was it a reminder he needed? Certainly, I know better. It was so confusing and it all happened so fast.

I'm left hoping that IF I've erased any progress, there is a chance that I've reminded him of what true love is. What emotional connection really feels like. And, that I am safe. It was clear at this point that it was us back in the day even if just for a few minutes.

I held his face in my hands. We gazed into each other's eyes (which has become a thing...a thing I fight and he pursues.) Staring into his eyes, I calmly whispered a reminder that I'm his wife and he knows my boundaries. He confirmed with a soft, "I know. I won't do anything stupid."

Yes, I'm aware that this won't stop H from doing what he may or may not do. Yet, teenagers need reminders and so I sent the message. H nodded and swore that there isn't anything physical going on. (I know MLCers lie and I don't have any confidence that the EA is/isn't a PA. When he confirmed that there is nothing going on, I listened. I neither challenged nor celebrated.)

H kissed me again. I told him I love him and with certainty in his voice, H told me he loves me. H then proceeded to accelerate physical intimacy and without hesitation, I pulled back. I told him to have fun and he was off. "I don't do hit 'n runs.'

Since there is nothing I can do to help or hurt the process, the exchange was worth it to me in the moment. The impact this interaction has on his trip? Who knows. I'll look for his actions upon his return and expect no change. I'll return to NC unless it's business.

Separately, I spent the day with D yesterday as we adventured to the city for the day. (I'm still cancer-free!!) She mentioned that H finally visited her place and brought her Christmas gifts. She noted that H still isn't asking many questions about her, but that H did ask her how he did with gift giving for the holidays. Do you think niece liked x? Was it a good idea to get nephew y? Fear of rejection is what I heard. H is growing up. D is healing. I can see it all come together.

I'm hopeful.

I'll return to NC.

I'm back to work and busy. Job security is good. I enjoyed lunch with H's nephew this past weekend (his invite bc he got me a gift.) I have some dinner plans this week and weekend. I keep on GALing.

DnJ - thank you for the explanation of affair partners. I trust (bc I've read it often and you say so) that the affair partner is used in the journey. Understanding has been a challenge from an intellectual standpoint. But, I'll either figure it out or accept it. Whichever comes first. Talk about counterintuitive, lol.

[grok]

Hey MamaG,

This has been on my mind. As I have much to learn and it is a difficult subject for me.

I've been giving this a lot of thought. S is so much like H. Can talk for hours about superficial things. Dives deep into work and feels such satisfaction from his accolades. It's so rare that feelings come through in discussions. Emotions are rare.

...I clarified that I wish that we talked more about his feelings/emotions through the years bc suppressing feelings isn't healthy. I told S I wish I knew more about how he feels about things. S was receptive when I said, "I wish he was born with a manual on how to raise a child." We laughed and S agreed that I did the best I could and started to talk me through what I great job I did. It was a beautiful moment but we haven't talked feelings since then. If I share my feelings, S is receptive to listening. Doesn't expand though. How do I get him to open up without making it look like that's what I'm doing?

I had a few quotes from elsewhere to help explain, but at least one of the accounts is now deleted. *sigh* Still. My perception of what you wrote and my own experience is that you may be missing his masculine emotional communication. He may not be able to express it in feminine language.

I'm certainly no expert, though on this subject I have learned more in the last two years than all the rest of my life. Men do not communicate emotions the same way as women. Talking about how you feel or talking with the indirect motive of communicating how you feel is a very feminine method of expression. We also have a very different experience when we do express them. Especially to women. Loss of respect and the ick is often what we expect and experience from women.

This illustrates some - The following quote was in response to a video floating around the internet, recorded by his wife, at his surprise request because he wanted to say something. In it a man is sitting holding an almost empty spool of wire. She asks him what he is doing sitting there...she thought he was working...what did he want? He explains/tells a story of how this spool of wire has been with him for almost 40 years. And how it relates to different activities over the years and how it being almost empty is like closing a part of his life. His wife responds in a dismissive casual tone "Oh, you had your Jets hat on. I thought that's why you were crying." The man pauses, his face falls, he quietly says "I'm done," and walks away.

It wasn't about the spool of wire. It his expression for his deep emotions about life and contemplations of mortality.

Man just shared a piece of his legacy, his soul; something that has been with him as long, or longer, than she has. An old, reliable friend he could count on & go back to again & again. That spool of wire wasn't just a way to keep track of the passage of time, but represents how much he's sacrificed of himself for the people he cares for & she utterly dismissed him.

Women ask us men to share our feelings with them, so they can understand us better, and when we do we get this [censored]. Then they wonder why we’re angry, closed off, secluded ourselves, build up walls, and so on. It’s partially because we didn’t share the way THEY wanted us to share, or they really don’t care, and asked out of some planned reason, which is immediately takes a sharp turn into something else that doesn’t even compute with why we’re opening ourselves up in the first damn place. Which is what they wanted us to do to begin with. Damned if you damned if you don’t.

i know this is just one video, but it truly is emblematic of what it’s like to be a man

the women in your life will tell you to “open up more” and “show your emotions” and the very first time you muster the strength to actually do so, they will respond with such utter contempt it forces you to reconsider every emotion you’ve ever felt

and do not read this as some incel, woman-hating, “men need to be alpha males” bs post. i’ve had plenty of amazing, loving relationships with women in my life. my mother raised me well. this is not a slight on women. this is more of societal critique than anything.

men have a natural instinct to display strength and emotional resolve. this is normal and good, i think. but yes, we are also emotional creatures. we just don’t show that outwardly very often — but when we DO, ladies…ladies, you must understand how important these moments are. one wrong move and you’ve shattered your man’s ability to go there with you, to go to those emotional depths.

we closely guard these depths. and in the rare instance we choose to let you see them, you need to act wisely. let this be a cautionary tale.

Crossing this communication barrier is difficult for most of us. I know it is for me.

g

[MamaG]

G, thank you for sharing this with me. It’s very insightful and something for me to listen for. As I read through your note to me, I can’t help but remember my husband saying that I don’t listen to him. I felt like I always listened. Perhaps this is how he feels and I never saw it. There certainly is a difference between hearing and listening and this is what I hear you point out. if you’re looking to call something else out, please clarify.

Perhaps my son is sharing feelings in ways I’m not hearing.

Hope you’re doing well.

[Valeska19]

I tried to look back at your other thread to see if H broke things off with OW. I didn't see it so I'm basing my feedback on the fact that he is still engaged with her.

Overall I am not sure why you want to be battling against another woman. I'm sure it doesnt really feel good knowing that he is cake eating by having you both? Just curious on what your thought process is.

M: Thanks.
H: I coming to get my coat. I have 30 minutes and am leaving for my trip.
M: Oh, I didn't know when you were going.
H: I told you I was going in Jan. (I stared at him in confusion. Exactly how was I to know when he was leaving? I digress.)
M: Your belongings are all down here. I told you I packed your stuff up in July. Remember? (Walking him to the space where his boxes are.)
H: (He has no words. His eyes land on a pile of boxes all neatly stacked in several piles.)
M: It's in there somewhere. Do you ever plan to come get your things?
H: Yes, I will.

H is holding back words and emotions while hiding behind a poker face, a mask. It was hard to tell what was running through his head. I just stared back at him.

H: It's alright. I don't need it.

H walks out of the space and towards the garage. Standing at the door, he looks back at me. I stare at him with no words. I feel myself melting. I wasn't prepared for this interaction and I know he's off to a trip on waters. Running through my head is the anxious attacher that remains to be healed.

H: What?
M: Nothing.
H: Bye

His stare and word felt so cold and emotionless. Possibly due to awareness of his reality that his past sits in boxes in the basement.

M: Can I have a hug? That is, if you want one too.
H: Yes, I'd like one and he walks over and embraces me.

I feel tightness and warmth. I melt again. Loving every second and feeling relief. My head is racing as I know this isn't DBing yet I felt the intensity and carry on.

M: Alright, you gotta go. Have fun and please be careful. Can I ask you to let me know that you've arrived safely?
H: Yes. What happened to your upper lip?
M: Long story.

After a bit of just looking at each other, I said, "It needs a boo-boo kiss."

What in the whole world am I doing? Am I testing him? This isn't DBing! Yet, it felt so right. And this makes sense since DBing is still counterintuitive. Temptation? Who knows.

For me, it was wonderful to see and connect with my long lost husband whom I miss dearly. Even if the connection was only 1-way and it was with the alien.

Without hesitation H comes over and kisses me. H was gentle and passionate. Not the teenager behavior from just a year ago. It was different than what I've felt. Clearly, I know that this is temporary but even temporary was welcomed. Have I mentioned how much I miss my H?

To Me - This is you being uncomfortable with MG 2.0. It's a process to set boundaries and its quite painful to change a behavior that serves you well. You're pattern is a little bit 2 steps forward/ 1 step back. You had some really good detachment and then you crumbled. It's normal but realize this is more about changing a dance than anything else.

While he turns the other way, my eyes glance at the wedding band he's sporting on this 2 week vacation with 10+ people, including his HS friend and EA. While I can't say why H continues to sport his band, I realize that he's wearing it despite not thinking I would be home when he stopped in.

Careful at putting too much stock into this. You are looking for actions not symbols.

At this point, I realize that I may be erasing DBing measures I've worked so hard for. I'm questioning if I'm going back on some unspoken boundaries? Contradicting how I've behaved? I did a 180 reverting back to the wife he recognizes. Was it a reminder he needed? Certainly, I know better. It was so confusing and it all happened so fast.

I'm left hoping that IF I've erased any progress, there is a chance that I've reminded him of what true love is. What emotional connection really feels like. And, that I am safe. It was clear at this point that it was us back in the day even if just for a few minutes.

I held his face in my hands. We gazed into each other's eyes (which has become a thing...a thing I fight and he pursues.) Staring into his eyes, I calmly whispered a reminder that I'm his wife and he knows my boundaries. He confirmed with a soft, "I know. I won't do anything stupid."

Yes, I'm aware that this won't stop H from doing what he may or may not do. Yet, teenagers need reminders and so I sent the message. H nodded and swore that there isn't anything physical going on. (I know MLCers lie and I don't have any confidence that the EA is/isn't a PA. When he confirmed that there is nothing going on, I listened. I neither challenged nor celebrated.)

Oh MG. True love is definitely not going to be in the form of a kiss. Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

H kissed me again. I told him I love him and with certainty in his voice, H told me he loves me. H then proceeded to accelerate physical intimacy and without hesitation, I pulled back. I told him to have fun and he was off. "I don't do hit 'n runs.'

Good for you! I'm glad your senses kicked back in...lol.

Since there is nothing I can do to help or hurt the process, the exchange was worth it to me in the moment. The impact this interaction has on his trip? Who knows. I'll look for his actions upon his return and expect no change. I'll return to NC unless it's business.

A little bit all over the place with this paragraph... which is normal. Do you think it was worth it or did you backslide? You are kind of saying both.

You can most certainly help or hurt the process. The process of YOUR healing. The process of YOUR growth.

I'm glad you are going back to NC. It seems your H upped the dance - and got you to join. We all have done this at some point in our journey but is this the dance your want? Do you want to have a moment of intimacy followed by him going back to his old life?

You are coming up on 2 years here... what would you like the next year of your life to look like?

[MamaG]

It's been cold. Grocery shopping and filling the gas tank required some bundling over the weekend. Changed dog foods and both Dog1 and Dog2 have had more energy. They seem more alert and more interested in play time. The family celebrated mom/dad's anniversary and now I sit on the couch with a cup a coffee, a blanket and two dogs as I cool down from shoveling 5 inches. A 1/2 mile driveway has it's benefits but not so much when it requires attention. Oof. That was a workout! Trump's inauguration events are underway in the background. Before I get to some additional household chores, I'll journal and provide an update on me. Valeska - thanks for your response and for not giving up on me. Not that I thought you would but I also realize that one can only 2x4 someone so many times for the same issues.

Overall I am not sure why you want to be battling against another woman. I'm sure it doesnt really feel good knowing that he is cake eating by having you both? Just curious on what your thought process is.

To answer this question right away...H has made strides to pull away from EA, but has not fully let go. Frankly, from my seat, EA has pulled away from him leaving H with no choice. Probably of little relevance but I believe EA has been in her own MLC for the last 4 years. My H is the OM2 for her. EA made it clear in July/Aug that their R wasn't going further. The trip they were both on (last 2 weeks) was booked in Mar/Apr when H was still in limerence.

With that out of the way, allow me to pour myself out in hopes that you (others) can tell me, "here's where the confusion lies" or "stop people pleasing bc you can't nice him back" or whatever other direction strikes you as you read through my confusion. Maybe it even sounds something like, let's give H some communication (a try) by entertaining superficial convos, but the risk you run is....

This forum focuses on dropping the rope. Don't respond to H and if I must, wait a day or 2. Leave him to his issues, bad decisions, emotions. I'll know when H has returned but until then don't ride the emotional rollercoaster.

Other views are to support reconciliation by showing compassion, patience, and a willingness to rebuild trust to create a path forward. Respond to texts showing grace and kindness so that H isn't afraid to reach out and trust me when he's ready. I may even argue that this forum is supportive of these sentiments too. I translate these to be more direct and possibly frequent than is recommended.

To Me - This is you being uncomfortable with MG 2.0. It's a process to set boundaries and its quite painful to change a behavior that serves you well. You're pattern is a little bit 2 steps forward/ 1 step back. You had some really good detachment and then you crumbled. It's normal but realize this is more about changing a dance than anything else.

Probable. Harder to see in my seat than yours but I respect your view. Reason for pause.

"Serves you well" is what I question. what I fight. what I am uncertain about.

Conflicting thoughts are still here...while I've gotten more comfortable with NC except for business items.
-How am I ever to reconcile with H if I do not ever see him?
-As a dismissive avoidant, the courage to approach me will diminish if H's fears don't resolve.
-If I don't see H, I am not easily shaken. But, in his presence, it's over. Still, I don't want to fully avoid him and I need to consider what I want too. Am I to avoid his presence for months, years, etc? that doesn't feel like the answer, yet H needs space. Oh the conflict.
-Then there are varying degrees of everyday actions/inactions. There is more than one school of thought on how to 'behave' in a spouse's midlife crisis. I've tried a couple approaches; neither has been fully successful. I get that when the time is right, it'll happen. Perhaps patience needs refining.
-Listening to stories of other LBS', I realize how mild my H's crisis is in comparison. This isn't intended to minimize what H may be contending with but what is clear is that H hasn't washed me away. What if WE could pave H a healthier path so that H can see the journey through with less pain? Is that not my obligation...'in sickness and in health'?

Oh MG. True love is definitely not going to be in the form of a kiss. Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

I have spent the last year (found out about MLC in Feb 2023) focused in thought, on intelligence and with a firm resolution as I navigated my fears, emotions and household responsibilities. Some of these were easier to overcome than others.

I've learned that men (generally speaking) value intimacy differently than women. I never gave it mind space before the crisis. I am the 'general' woman. I crave the intimacy bc it makes me feel loved and connected. Even if love isn't what was being delivered, I'm human and asked for the hugs. Kisses. Him. What I am now aware of is that what I take away may not be what's being delivered. Am, I was ok with it in that moment. And then I returned to hope and NC.

Good for you! I'm glad your senses kicked back in...lol.

I was ok with what I asked for (for me) - a hug, a kiss. I got more than I asked for with the kiss. It took deliberate restraint on my end as H was ready to roll. I listened to myself and the furtherance didn't feel right and so I stopped it and he respected. I sensed a bit of rejection which I'm not overthinking....just sharing.

You are coming up on 2 years here... what would you like the next year of your life to look like?

I don't want to relive 2024. In 2025, I want to support my kids. I want to live a life I love. I want to reconnect with H. Do for myself. And, I want to begin sharing a life with H. The latter is what I can't control. Still, that's the truth and I ponder how to influence much against advice.

Putting me first sometimes comes with temptations for physical needs. The question I also face is whether I can live with dismissive avoidant traits and whether I can adjust my needy self in order to live a life that I enjoy. I know it isn't fully my choice but I somehow know (something tells me you'll challenge me) that I can play a role in H's return and that may mean that his return is still an imperfect H returning to an imperfect me. I'm not suggesting overlooking my needs, but rather considering whether a life with H would

I know I am strong and resilient. I have prepared for what I need to do while H addresses (or lives with) his emotional turmoil in 2024. I didn't break him and therefore can't fix him. Intellectually, I know this. Then, I get waves of what I call 'courage'. Is it courage or weakness if I consider ideas on how to resolve? Hold the hand. Nudge. Soften the depression pain.

I reason that if I overcome fear of rejection/failure while respecting his process will demonstrate strength and resolve. Perhaps hold his hand through the mental illness, the crisis.

Still...

Avoiding and not responding is standing still. And standing still is still standing. See the confusion in my world? Is it my 'laziness' from fear/excuses/avoidance justifying inaction? Is my laziness leading to stagnation, suffering and missed opportunities?

I'm glad you are going back to NC. It seems your H upped the dance - and got you to join. We all have done this at some point in our journey but is this the dance your want? Do you want to have a moment of intimacy followed by him going back to his old life?

Didn't see it as a dance. H is on his journey and it is evident that growth has taken place for both us as individuals. Not as a R. H hasn't texted/called/written/sent a pigeon since the hug/kiss.

If you ask me, H hit rock bottom in Aug 2024 and has been reflecting. And over the last 45 days has been reaching out to the kids quite a bit. While on his 2 week adventure, with EA, a close childhood friend (who has always behaved like a teenager) and 8 others who are near strangers to him, H texted the kids multiple times a day. Sending pics of the waves, sunrise, and himself. I believe his 'happy look' may or may not be a facade. What a change from 2024 while the kids heard less from him the entire year as compared to the last 2 weeks. No text to me despite the sought intimacy on the day H left. Is H realizing his losses in a deeper way? Is H reconnecting? Hindsight will be 20/20.

Depression continues to consume H and it's obvious that his actions don't match his words. In October he shared his reflections and voiced some faults he saw in himself. How do I leave him out to dry like he did to me? Tit for tat isn't my style...but I can predict you telling me to not see it as tit for tat. Rather it's protecting me. Respecting me.

H is moving along on his journey and has dipped many toes in depression/withdrawal. H is reconnecting. I want to be prepared and diligent. Deliberate.

I've had many wins along the journey in support of PIES growth. I love this for me. In the end, I feel a strong connection to H, our family unit and our future. I see the pain in his eyes. Also true is that H doesn't turn to me for support and I know he continues to turn to EA.

I've rambled. Nothing like Grok's organized and measured posts. Rambling is how I journal and allow myself to just write without self-criticism. Hope you can follow and clearly, it's unclear where my confusion and conflicts resolve.

Knowing that a number of business interactions are forthcoming, I am looking to decide on how engaging or not I should be...

MamaG 2.0

[grok]

Hey MamaG,

on rambling

I've rambled. Nothing like Grok's organized and measured posts.

Well, not intentionally as such, though you ought to see the process of writing them down. I tend to think in concepts and connections...a train of thought from me ends up as disassociated concepts ... blurbs missing the 12 connections each that explain it. Then I have to go back and connect with things that would make sense to someone outside my head.

Still, I followed along just fine with your rambling. I think you end up with long form for the same reason I have. Important things are found in the "unknown unknowns or unknown knowns" expressed.

on listening

I can’t help but remember my husband saying that I don’t listen to him. I felt like I always listened. Perhaps this is how he feels and I never saw it.

I would do the slow roll, dig in, here. Man/Woman...we both send the message differently AND for different purposes...for the same feelings. The words and labels can confuse the issue.

I will illustrate a little with a classic Man mistake I've made in the past. Picture, I'm busy at my desk with a spreadsheet up on the main monitor. I have a tower defense game I'm playing on the secondary monitor as it only requires 10% of my attention. XW comes in to "talk." I say, "OK, go ahead and talk. I'm listening. You do have my attention, I'm just doing the other things in the background." And I am. 30% attention on the spreadsheet as it is mundane stuff. 10% on the tower defense game. 60% is given to what the XW is telling me about what went on during the day. I can answer her questions and repeat back just what she said. I give her my decision points where needed.

Did she FEEL listened to? I bet you can answer that question.

What was the underlying purpose of her talking to me? Why, how, and what was she looking for to feel listened to? I have the things I've learned in the last few years ... though I'd be interested in hearing your answer from the feminine perspective before giving mine.

I was operating in a typical male mode of communication. facts. decision trees. and so on. A typical outcome is something gets accomplished which makes a man feel good.

There certainly is a difference between hearing and listening and this is what I hear you point out. if you’re looking to call something else out, please clarify.

Yes, but several layers down from there...down in the differences between us.

Perhaps my son is sharing feelings in ways I’m not hearing.

More this. I suspect so. Or maybe doesn't know how to bridge that gap. He won't do so in female modes or for female reasons. Not unless he has been delving into relationship studies which address the Mars/Venus gap.

In the previously described video, the man later posted a follow up in which he described his W as wonderful and that she didn't mean anything by it. You can tell from the responses though...it touched a nerve with many men. He was sharing a deep feelings in a way she didn't hear at the time.

Hope you’re doing well.

Same and I'll give the DB stock answer "I'm doing surprisingly well!" It is true after all. And doesn't negate the "aftershocks" which continue in muted form.

g

[MamaG]

Hi G!

Well, not intentionally as such, though you ought to see the process of writing them down. I tend to think in concepts and connections...a train of thought from me ends up as disassociated concepts ... blurbs missing the 12 connections each that explain it. Then I have to go back and connect with things that would make sense to someone outside my head.

Much like we say about our MLCers, I tend to have fleeting thoughts (and sometimes emotions). If I don't brain dump or ramble, it gets lost in the next series of thoughts. I can attest to learning as I journal and from reading my own writing. This confirms your comment:

Important things are found in the "unknown unknowns or unknown knowns" expressed.

Perhaps our subconscious knows more than our conscious knows. I call it intuition.

On the listening front, I can relate to the multi-tasking style listening. And, if I couldn't distract, I would gloss over some of his topics. It must have gotten more obvious as there weren't kids sports to cover. Convos were often about which one of us was going with D vs S. When we had to leave. When dinner would be eaten. And, after the games, of course there was a play by play conversation. Empty nest changed that and left us with work convos. I don't want to listen to the same stuff. H didn't want to listen to the same stuff. Hence, you don't listen to me.

When I read your comments, I hear something more. Even beyond the glossed look, body language speaks volumes. I imagine he heard loud and clear that I wasn't hearing him. I wasn't understanding him. I wasn't meeting him where he wanted me to be in his story. I get that now.

Now, how to apply it to S. I've been mindful and had an ear for how convos go. Yesterday, I heard concern and a need for input. He wasn't just venting. He wanted my opinion. He didn't straight up ask but I did. Are you sharing to vent or for feedback. Bam, S wanted my take.

What was the underlying purpose of her talking to me? Why, how, and what was she looking for to feel listened to? I have the things I've learned in the last few years ... though I'd be interested in hearing your answer from the feminine perspective before giving mine.

She wanted your undivided attention. She wanted to be seen, heard and understood. She was looking for engagement, a reaction, something more than you giving her less than 100% attention. Yup. An unknown unknown is now a known unknown.

Same and I'll give the DB stock answer "I'm doing surprisingly well!" It is true after all. And doesn't negate the "aftershocks" which continue in muted form.

I need to be better at staying muted. With fewer opportunities to connect, I fail. Or perhaps, I cease the moments and go too far. Something to figure out.

MamaG 2.0

[Valeska19]

It's been cold. Grocery shopping and filling the gas tank required some bundling over the weekend. Changed dog foods and both Dog1 and Dog2 have had more energy. They seem more alert and more interested in play time. The family celebrated mom/dad's anniversary and now I sit on the couch with a cup a coffee, a blanket and two dogs as I cool down from shoveling 5 inches. A 1/2 mile driveway has it's benefits but not so much when it requires attention. Oof. That was a workout! Trump's inauguration events are underway in the background. Before I get to some additional household chores, I'll journal and provide an update on me. Valeska - thanks for your response and for not giving up on me. Not that I thought you would but I also realize that one can only 2x4 someone so many times for the same issues.

Not giving up. I understand how difficult changing a dynamic is . With my current relationship - it was very one sided for awhile. I'm a natural giver - so takers love me. It's hard to know the difference sometimes.

Overall I am not sure why you want to be battling against another woman. I'm sure it doesnt really feel good knowing that he is cake eating by having you both? Just curious on what your thought process is.

To answer this question right away...H has made strides to pull away from EA, but has not fully let go. Frankly, from my seat, EA has pulled away from him leaving H with no choice. Probably of little relevance but I believe EA has been in her own MLC for the last 4 years. My H is the OM2 for her. EA made it clear in July/Aug that their R wasn't going further. The trip they were both on (last 2 weeks) was booked in Mar/Apr when H was still in limerence.

Hmmm... I'm going to call bs here. He clearly has one foot in each world. If he was ready to drop the rope on her or commit to you. He would cancel. Saying he already booked the trip, therefore he would lose money... are all excuses. When he is ready. You will know.

With that out of the way, allow me to pour myself out in hopes that you (others) can tell me, "here's where the confusion lies" or "stop people pleasing bc you can't nice him back" or whatever other direction strikes you as you read through my confusion. Maybe it even sounds something like, let's give H some communication (a try) by entertaining superficial convos, but the risk you run is....

This forum focuses on dropping the rope. Don't respond to H and if I must, wait a day or 2. Leave him to his issues, bad decisions, emotions. I'll know when H has returned but until then don't ride the emotional rollercoaster.

Other views are to support reconciliation by showing compassion, patience, and a willingness to rebuild trust to create a path forward. Respond to texts showing grace and kindness so that H isn't afraid to reach out and trust me when he's ready. I may even argue that this forum is supportive of these sentiments too. I translate these to be more direct and possibly frequent than is recommended.

So this site is alot about 180's, making change, and doing what works. Because of that - it's a little different for each situation.

A person who has allowed her WAS to be needy needs to pull way back. A LBS who has been avoidant - needs to show up a little.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are situation #1. You have been EVERYTHING to your H... that's why it'so uncomfortable for you both. He's always thinks you will be there. You believe that being loving to him is by being there.

Let me take the following sentences and reword them into statements. Tell me if they feel true to you.

How am I ever to reconcile with H if I do not ever see him?

Statement: If I don't see him - I am fearful H will forget about me and not want to reconcile.

As a dismissive avoidant, the courage to approach me will diminish if H's fears don't resolve.

Statement: I won't give him too much distance because I don't believe H will do the work to approach me.

-If I don't see H, I am not easily shaken. But, in his presence, it's over. Still, I don't want to fully avoid him and I need to consider what I want too. Am I to avoid his presence for months, years, etc? that doesn't feel like the answer, yet H needs space. Oh the conflict.

Statement: When I see H, My emotions (fear) take control. My WANT to comfort that part of me that fears losing him is greater than my NEED to respect myself.

(You may want something - but it will not destroy you. If you don't respect yourself - you will destroy yourself)

-Then there are varying degrees of everyday actions/inactions. There is more than one school of thought on how to 'behave' in a spouse's midlife crisis. I've tried a couple approaches; neither has been fully successful. I get that when the time is right, it'll happen. Perhaps patience needs refining.
-Listening to stories of other LBS', I realize how mild my H's crisis is in comparison. This isn't intended to minimize what H may be contending with but what is clear is that H hasn't washed me away. What if WE could pave H a healthier path so that H can see the journey through with less pain? Is that not my obligation...'in sickness and in health'?

Let's be honest. You have ONLY really tried Mama 1.0. You have spend your marriage + 1.5 years post BD catering to that man. You have only really been trying to detach for less than 6 months. Consider that... YEARS of an old dynamic versus months of a new one with a few roadblocks. Maybe spend more time w/ option 2 before you decide it hasn't "worked"

I don't want to relive 2024. In 2025, I want to support my kids. I want to live a life I love. I want to reconnect with H. Do for myself. And, I want to begin sharing a life with H. The latter is what I can't control. Still, that's the truth and I ponder how to influence much against advice.

Try this answer again w/o adding your H into the mix at all. We all know you want to be married... but when are you going to want a better life for yourself more??

From what I see in all of your posts... is someone very much in the middle of grief. I see alot of bargaining happening here. A resistance to surrender what IS versus what you want it to be.

It's very hard to take off our rose colored glasses. To see people for what they really are. To see ourselves for whom we are.

So let me ask you this very honest and difficult question.

MamaG 1.0 has always worried about her H's needs, wants, etc. more than her own. MamaG 1.0 has always believed in being kind and understanding of her H's pain. His avoidant behavior, his selfish needs.

Did all of you putting his needs above yours make him any more loyal to you?

Did you being so patience and understanding of his avoidant behavior actually bring him closer to you?

Did your constant reassurance stop him from looking for reassurance in someone else?

Me thinks not.

So why are you so determined to do the same thing yet expecting different results?

You can be kind, yet not be physical with your H.

You can be compassionate, yet hold him to the consequences of his actions.


And let's say at the end of the day - this ole bahavior from your WORKS and he comes back. He will have done NONE of the work that actually says he will FIGHT for your marriage. AND as much as you THINK you would be relieved... you will ALWAYS be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

So please continue to fight for MamaG 2.0 - she is very much worth it.

[MamaG]

Not giving up. I understand how difficult changing a dynamic is . With my current relationship - it was very one sided for awhile. I'm a natural giver - so takers love me. It's hard to know the difference sometimes.

I appreciate you, your investment in me, your time, your interest. I can feel it coming through in your responses. Thank you!

A person who has allowed her WAS to be needy needs to pull way back. A LBS who has been avoidant - needs to show up a little.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are situation #1. You have been EVERYTHING to your H... that's why it'so uncomfortable for you both. He's always thinks you will be there. You believe that being loving to him is by being there.

Guilty! I have been everything to H. That is the truth. I recall reading about 180s in Divorce Remedy. Thanks for the callout, clarification and example in application. I've been so confused thinking it was different schools of thought. What you're saying is that you're customizing a recommendation based on my specifics. Got it. I'll be dusting the book off this weekend for a second read.

When you translate my confusion/questions to stmts, I can hear a similar message. I'll give you that. Still, I'm not convinced they fully reflect my thoughts or erase the question that lingers in my thoughts. Comparing my questions to your stmts was a good exercise.

If I don't see him - I am fearful H will forget about me and not want to reconcile.

I don't think he'll forget about me. I'm not forgettable. As I read my question again, I hear impatient. I hear fixer onboard.

I won't give him too much distance because I don't believe H will do the work to approach me.

DAs are a tough breed. I've managed to live with H avoiding conflict and although I didn't love it, H isn't perfect and I could continue to manage. Certainly, I'd prefer that H didn't run from conflict and emotions. I'm not convinced that DAs do the work necessary to not be dismissive. To not run. Yes, I believe he'll need nudging to make amends. The depression, financial fall, apathy, aches/pains are unsurmountable. I'm not sure how he hasn't hit rock bottom. So, does this bring me back to patience? MLCers hover over rock bottom and I need to be patient?

When I see H, My emotions (fear) take control. My WANT to comfort that part of me that fears losing him is greater than my NEED to respect myself.

After thinking about this one, I wonder if you're being kind to me. I suspect that I'm manipulating him bc I know PI is something we've always enjoyed. Neither of us has ever complained about that part of our R. I'm reverting to the same dance. I know what worked in our M and I'm using it.

Hmm. If that's true, how is that a bad game plan? Wait, it's the EA, isn't it? Cake eating. Not that I'm suggesting cake eating is the answer - I expect monogamy in my M. And, likely how you landed at 'respect myself'.

I'm seeing this one better now that I typed up a bunch of gibberish. This one is spot on.

(You may want something - but it will not destroy you. If you don't respect yourself - you will destroy yourself)

yup

I won't relive 2024. In 2025, I will support my kids. I will live a life I love. Do for myself. Refine MamaG 2.0 and let her shine.

MamaG 2.0 is here to stay.

MamaG 1.0 has always worried about her H's needs, wants, etc. more than her own. MamaG 1.0 has always believed in being kind and understanding of her H's pain. His avoidant behavior, his selfish needs.

Did all of you putting his needs above yours make him any more loyal to you?

Did you being so patience and understanding of his avoidant behavior actually bring him closer to you?

Did your constant reassurance stop him from looking for reassurance in someone else?

Me thinks not.

So why are you so determined to do the same thing yet expecting different results?

No.
No.
No.
Insanity. Yuck.

This gives me lots to think about. Wow.

[MamaG]

After thinking about this one, I wonder if you're being kind to me.

After thinking about this one, I wonder if you're being TOO kind to me.

[Valeska19]

After thinking about this one, I wonder if you're being kind to me.

After thinking about this one, I wonder if you're being TOO kind to me.

Ha. I try to be. Directness sometimes can seem unkind but that is never my intention.

I did have a sense that the PI was a bit of a powerplay - but tbh - its more important that you come to conclusions on your own vs. me just telling you. That would have never worked.

DAs are a tough breed. I've managed to live with H avoiding conflict and although I didn't love it, H isn't perfect and I could continue to manage. Certainly, I'd prefer that H didn't run from conflict and emotions. I'm not convinced that DAs do the work necessary to not be dismissive. To not run. Yes, I believe he'll need nudging to make amends. The depression, financial fall, apathy, aches/pains are unsurmountable. I'm not sure how he hasn't hit rock bottom. So, does this bring me back to patience? MLCers hover over rock bottom and I need to be patient?

This paragraph presents a bit of a conundrum. The problem with you being patient is that as long as your H continues in his avoidant behavior - you will be waiting for a long LONG time. Avoidant behavior can be worked on... but no one works on something until they are ready. Usually that requires loss and pain.. right? The saying is "the person has to be sick and tired of being sick and tired".

Translated to your H. The pain of the consequences of being Avoidant needs to be GREATER than the act of being avoidant - if that makes sense. So as long as you come in and "fix" or "nudge" - your husband will NOT change. Why? Because you are blocking the pain meant for him. Instead - you are that is left feeling unappreciated in lonely.

You are literally absorbing all the pain instead.

So if you really are able to "continue to manage" - that means NO CHANGE in your relationship. Are you sure that you are willing to be on the back burning for the rest of your life. Does that align with MamaG 2.0?

I don't think he'll forget about me. I'm not forgettable. smile As I read my question again, I hear impatient. I hear fixer onboard.

I agree that you are not forgettable. AND fixing comes from a place of control. Control usually means we fear something or we judge something... so there is a little exercise where you "drill down" on the answers to get to the heart of the issue. Ask yourself something at least 5 times.

1. I think I need to fix my h's (trait)

Why?

2. Because reason 1

Why?

3. Because reason 2

Why?

4. Because reason 3.

Keep at it until you run out of "reasons". The truth is a hard pill - make sure you grab water... and tissues.


My example was that my partner was willing to take advantage of me. It didn't matter if it was fear based, trauma based. It didn't matter if she cared about me or even loved me - the fact was if presented with the opportunity to change or let Val take the hit... it was the second... every. single. time. And that scared me so much that I would fix and control everything so I wouldn't end up getting punched. And still.... I somehow got punched... because we don't actually have control over someone.

So my actions now protect me from taking the hit. I can be empathetic to her issues. I can be compassionate in my "no"... but it's still NO because I don't want to be punched any more. Whatever the reason. I don't control her - only myself in surrendering that she is currently who she is... therefore I must act accordingly.

I think that if you drill down - you too can find clarity in the midst of all the confusion you are feeling. You'll stop being so consumed by the "why" H does what he does and start to put focus on the facts. You'll understand the Real reason why you "fix" and then you can decide if you are ready to make the change. You too will have to get to a point where "you're sick and tired of being sick and tired".

Keep posting. Our ears are open.

[MamaG]

Translated to your H. The pain of the consequences of being Avoidant needs to be GREATER than the act of being avoidant - if that makes sense. So as long as you come in and "fix" or "nudge" - your husband will NOT change. Why? Because you are blocking the pain meant for him. Instead - you are that is left feeling unappreciated in lonely.

I agree that you are not forgettable. AND fixing comes from a place of control. Control usually means we fear something or we judge something... so there is a little exercise where you "drill down" on the answers to get to the heart of the issue. Ask yourself something at least 5 times.

How am I ever to reconcile with H if I do not ever see him?

If I don't see him - I am fearful H will forget about me and not want to reconcile.

This is what I suspect you'd like me to dig into. Apply the 5 Why's. Sounds like you know the answer that I'm going to look for. I have the water and the tissues.

Rose-colored glasses came off some time ago. I am aware that I was needy for attention, affection and equal contributions. It was a cycle. Avoidant brought out anxious and anxious brought out avoidant.

I don't air my issues but I have a good idea of what they are and where the stem from: childhood. I believe, I've done this work. You'll tell me if you had something else in mind.

-I fear being ignored, abandoned, neglected. It hurt when he withdrew or didn't show up in a conversation. I didn't feel important enough to resolve conflicts.
-I seek constant validation and reassurance. It hurt when H wouldn't meet my emotional needs. And, I remember my H telling me 20 years ago that I would fake cry. "No one cries over that." As a kid, I was the oldest and younger brother was the favorite. Idolized even.
-I jump into fixer mode if someone voices a concern or vents. Fixing problems gave me purpose. Made me feel important. It also made me feel like I was carrying more than 75% of the weight.

I can come up with a laundry list of what H brought to the table - plenty of pros and cons. To focus on the cons (for the 5-Why exercise), I'll start with emotionally unavailable.

I think I need to fix my husband's emotional unavailability.
W1: Conversations feel one-sided; empty.
W2: Because I feel disconnected from him; I don't know what he's thinking/feeling.
W3: Because when H didn't talk through it with me, I couldn't calm my nervous system on my own.
W4: Because growing up, feelings weren't necessary. Opinions weren't necessary. I did as I was told and that made me feel alone. I wanted something different for my family (A different dance.)
W5: Because I want to feel secure and valued in a relationship, and fixing his emotional unavailability feels like the path to calming my nervous system.

Is this what you had in mind?

[MamaG]

Hello everyone!

We've been getting hit with various bouts of snow over the last couple weeks. Shoveling continues to serve as a gym pass. It's been cold; colder than most Jan/Feb. High heating bills consume side-conversations. Today, I'm grateful for the physical strength I've been graced with while I sooth the emotional side. It's been a day.

It's been a bit since I've stopped in. I don't share much about what I don't need help with and I find myself journaling here when I need a shoulder to cry on or when I'm in need of support.

GALing continues strong. I spent an hour wrapping a number of gifts for several upcoming celebrations - remember my family celebrates EVERYTHING. It's a wonderful thing. Work remains busy and a great outlet. Dog1 and dog2 are a great comfort and have been showing up in many ways. You'll see why as you read through my update.

To Me - This is you being uncomfortable with MG 2.0. It's a process to set boundaries and its quite painful to change a behavior that serves you well. You're pattern is a little bit 2 steps forward/ 1 step back. You had some really good detachment and then you crumbled. It's normal but realize this is more about changing a dance than anything else.

I re-read the first half of the Divorce Remedy book. Started reading the Shut-out wife and need to go back to Divorce Remedy. I'm dusting these books off because limbo has been a crucible and I've been having thoughts about throwing in the towel.

I like(d) MG 1.0. Still, I'm focusing on MG2.0...I convince myself to dig deeper. It's harder than I thought. I continue to show up for myself.

Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

Coming up on 2 years has been a journey. While 2 years is a drop in the bucket compared to others on this site, it feels like an eternity. I still suspect he hit rock bottom in Aug 2024. Maybe not...How would I know?

Let's be honest. You have ONLY really tried Mama 1.0. You have spend your marriage + 1.5 years post BD catering to that man. You have only really been trying to detach for less than 6 months. Consider that... YEARS of an old dynamic versus months of a new one with a few roadblocks. Maybe spend more time w/ option 2 before you decide it hasn't "worked"

I feel this...If nothing else, I convince myself to embrace MG2.0 to respect myself.

Knowing that a number of business interactions are forthcoming, I am looking to decide on how engaging or not I should be...

I waited to reach out for tax info. Knowing that it would take weeks after making the request for H to come through, I needed to send the text I didn't want to send. I asked myself why I didn't want to send H a text and pondered for a while. I landed on a few reasons.
- NC ensures I won't behave like MG1.0. This tells me I still hope.
- Giving H space. It's been 5-weeks since our last interaction, when H stopped over for a coat. This makes me question hope.
- And as I have journaled...

I need to be better at staying muted...I cease the moments and go too far.

I prepared myself for the interaction and felt myself not wanting to text H. I thought through what could come my way? What do I say? Reminding myself to provide no emotions.

A year ago, I looked forward to texting H to fulfill the craving to share in an interaction. This is a change. Today, I have to talk myself into sending H a text to take care of business stuff.

I realize that H may not even realize it's tax season. This is one more thing I am responsible for. And, another reminder to self of how much I contributed to our life. How little responsibility H had through the years.

These moments. These thoughts. They linger and take me down disturbing paths. Valeska hears that I'm still grieving. I am. I'm still grieving. Today, I'm awakened to...

Exactly what do I want from H?
Why do I want H?
Wait, do I want H?
What value did H bring to our lives?
How can it be that I miss H? What do I actually miss?
Do I miss H or am I lonely?

Would I be better off with someone else? Someone who shows up. Someone who wants to be here. Someone who behaves like an adult. Someone who supports. Someone who can sooth the emotional side.

I am thankful for physical, intellectual and spiritual strengths. Emotionally, I'm still a hot mess. We weren't put on earth to live life alone.

It's my responsibility to take care of my emotions of sadness/grief. I could get through this season with greater ease if I were to share my life with someone. Talking with H wouldn't be dreaded, but we don't share a life. We hold transactions. That's what our R has come to. That's not emotionally satisfying.

So why are you so determined to do the same thing yet expecting different results?

You can be kind, yet not be physical with your H.

You can be compassionate, yet hold him to the consequences of his actions.

I'm tired. I too tired to even consider holding him to consequences. I've learned (or tell myself) that H doesn't deserve me. I didn't think I'd get here, but today's reality is that I hope and stand more for my kids and family more than I do for myself and our R. I'll always love H. I'm not sure I want H. Is my ego getting the better of me? Am i feeling the crucible limbo?

The saying is "the person has to be sick and tired of being sick and tired".

This comment was about H more than me. Still, I can tell you that I'm sick and tired. Recently, I'm sick and tired of who H is and his capabilities and his lacking contributions. Shoveling snow came with some curse words unlike a few weeks back. Perhaps I'm cycling as we LBSes do.

Translated to your H. The pain of the consequences of being Avoidant needs to be GREATER than the act of being avoidant - if that makes sense. So as long as you come in and "fix" or "nudge" - your husband will NOT change.

Did I try to fix/nudge or did I hold up a mirror to hold him to the consequences of his actions?

M: GM! I'm getting ready to drop off our taxes file. When would be a good time for you to drop off your info? Let me know what works for you.
H: Gm! What info do you need?
M: The accountant will need..... LMK when you can get them to me. (I find myself annoyed that he has no idea was is needed.)
H: Ok I'll look for them. Today and tomorrow are no good for me. X's bachelor party this weekend. Nothing big just going to Y.
M: When do you think you can have it so I can make an appt? Have a good time this weekend.
H: I'll look for the stuff hopefully Monday. After work. Work has been crazy lately. I've been working anywhere between 9-14 hr days. (He worked 30 hour weeks when H lived at home. I'm getting tempted to hold up the mirror.)
M: Those are long days. Hope you're getting a chance to recharge.
H: Only on the weekends. (Didn't expect a response...hmm...shall I continue?)
M: It sounds like you're putting a lot into work right now. How do you feel about the balance between your long hours and your personal time of the weekends? (Don't expect a response as the mirror will provide for discomfort. And, we have no expectations on this site.)
H: Not enough time off.
M: Your W2 income from last year is a reflection of all the long hours you're putting in. With all that time invested, do you feel like you're getting the balance you want, both in terms of time and your financial situation?

I get a call from D an hour later. Dad was just here. She gives me a rundown and we learn that within 5 minutes of my last text about the W2 income, H reached out to her and stopped by to give her a gift from his trip. A gift that he know she'd like - thoughtful.

D: Dad is different. He even asked me for a hug this time. I wasn't going to.
M: That's nice. Glad your relationship is turning for the better.
D: Ya, it's still all about him though, mom. I even brought up things in my life without him asking to see if we could talk about me for a bit. He still didn't ask anything.
M: So why do you think he's different?
D: He's making an effort to see me and share. Last year, he wouldn't have shared anything. All of his stories were about him on the trip saving the day.
M: Dad takes pride in working smarter and not harder. He loves to help. Acts of service is his love language.
D: I didn't feed into his stories. I just let him talk while I carried on with what I was doing. I'm glad he's going out with his friends tonight for the bachelor party. I think he needs a little fun.
M: Yes, I'm happy for him, too.
D: Dad's coming around. He's trying to connect with me. And, I almost got sucked in but stopped myself from telling him that S is traveling on business again.
M: I'm proud of you for seeing things for what they are and accepting the season. I love you girl!

In summary, she calls to say that H shared many stories about his trip - all of which painted him as a hero. A man who saved the day. "It's a good thing I was there."

Thanks for listening. Off to a family event. Hope everyone is enjoying the weekend.

[Valeska19]

Hey MG,
I'm a little tired. I moved from LA back to east coast so these past few weeks have been hell on earth. But I wanted to respond to you quickly.

I can understand the flip flopping between liking the 1.0 and the 2.0. Change is hard and often one feels alot worse before they feel better. My last therapist was like - "the change you need to make to put yourself first is going to make your feel like sh!t... and for a good solid year. "

Man she was right... and I'm still not of the woods yet but choosing myself has gotten easier.

It seems to me that MG is a very kind and loving person. Very understanding of her partner - has a ton of space to allow her partner to both grow and fail. However a marriage is give and take... and when your a partner continually takes, like your H, this is when those once loving behaviors turn into enabling ones.

For example:

M: GM! I'm getting ready to drop off our taxes file. When would be a good time for you to drop off your info? Let me know what works for you.
H: Gm! What info do you need?
M: The accountant will need..... LMK when you can get them to me. (I find myself annoyed that he has no idea was is needed.)
H: Ok I'll look for them. Today and tomorrow are no good for me. X's bachelor party this weekend. Nothing big just going to Y.
M: When do you think you can have it so I can make an appt? Have a good time this weekend.
H: I'll look for the stuff hopefully Monday. After work. Work has been crazy lately. I've been working anywhere between 9-14 hr days. (He worked 30 hour weeks when H lived at home. I'm getting tempted to hold up the mirror.)
M: Those are long days. Hope you're getting a chance to recharge.
H: Only on the weekends. (Didn't expect a response...hmm...shall I continue?)
M: It sounds like you're putting a lot into work right now. How do you feel about the balance between your long hours and your personal time of the weekends? (Don't expect a response as the mirror will provide for discomfort. And, we have no expectations on this site.)
H: Not enough time off.
M: Your W2 income from last year is a reflection of all the long hours you're putting in. With all that time invested, do you feel like you're getting the balance you want, both in terms of time and your financial situation?

To me - this is MG 1.0.

1. You are still engaging too much with H.
2. Quit being so d@mn understanding. It's enables him to not put in the work.

Have you ever thought about you settling the deadline. Here is how an MG 2.0 conversation could go.

" Hi H. I set an appointment with our accountant for x date. Could you please have all of your info to me by y date?

If it is a reasonable amount of time - say two or three weeks from now - that would be plenty of time.

If he pushes back - you could say

"Sorry this the time that works best for accountant and me. You are welcome to set up an appointment instead and I can give you my files if you prefer"

(And no MG - you can't give me an excuse that you as for why YOU should be the one to do this work instead - he's a grown man... he can do it.)

And... then no extended talk after that. Remember - he has fired you as his w. He doesn't get to the same access.


If he says he's working he's working too much. You can say

"I totally understand - that's why I'm giving you as much notice as I can. Let me know when you'd like to schedule a time to drop off the paperwork. Thank you."

Yes your H will not like his changed behavior. He could do anything from thinking something is wrong to having a full negative effect. Let him.

He is choosing NOT to do life with you. Let him. Fully. I know it's hard. Painful. But it's the truth. The more you can make choices towards accepting it - the less you keep asking questions that have no answer and do not matter.

As you said you are two years in. Let go. It's okay. It's not giving up. It's accepting what is today. Tomorrow may be different - but all we have is the present so we should base our decisions off of that.

You got this 2.0. You are worthy of respect and love.

[MamaG]

That's quite an undertaking - I wish you a smooth move. And, welcome to the east coast.

I exchanged more business texting with H using 1.0. He has been lingering in convos about nothing more than his long days. Then I read your response and all you had to say is that it keeps him from awakening to the hot mess he's created. Keeping him from rock bottom is not my intention!

H reached out again yesterday - yup 3 days in a week. Yesterday was more of 2.0 interaction. I left him hanging. He's fired me as a w.

Today, I sit in the same seat I cried profusely in 2 years ago - to this day - when BD1 took place.

I clarified a billing detail from yesterday's texting and asked no questions. I had no interest in acknowledging (and didn't acknowledge) the anniversary. Ha - anniversary. I've rec'd no response and don't expect to. H can sit in all the feels today and tomorrow for that matter.

I'm sad. I'm disappointed. Still, I'm not hovering over a bowl of chili with tears running faster than I could wipe them like I was 2 years ago.

I have someone coming to fix a couple things at the house today - stuff above my pay grade. I contemplated calling H as I know he's show - acts of service is his love language. Divorce Remedy told me not to. I know you would tell me not to. And, so I called for the hired help.

And now I find a way to get through this weekend. I ordered some special food for my valentines - Dog1 and Dog2. I know they'll love it. I'll attend 3 bday parties this weekend and enjoy my new normal.

Next weekend is a wedding I was supposed to attend with H but I wasn't invited. H is a groomsmen and he will sit and feel his consequences. I'm sure I'll find something to do.

[MamaG]

Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

He may be getting very close...atop financials being in the red, long work days in the frigid wet temps, depression, a truth dart from me today....and the upcoming wedding.

Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

You were right, as usual. He's a grown man. And he has a lot of sh!t to figure out.

I didn't sleep well last night and was up at 2am. I grab my phone and find myself clearing out 'our' email box that we once shared. I come across an email that raises the antennas and it appears to have a trail. Upon looking through the trash, I see that some other ones from the same company were trashed by him.

1800flowers rec'd a flower order and made a delivery to the OW on 2/13...same day of BD1 for me. Notice I no longer refer to her as EA. Two dozen roses feels more like a romantic gesture. Oddly the message doesn't refer to any love. hmmm

Message on the delivery: Will you be my valentine? - [fake name]

Interesting, his fantasy also comes with a new name.

I quickly screenshotted, cropped and sent part of 1 of the emails, including the arrangement and the delivery address. Yup - not my address....

M: Did she like them?
M: Are you going to tell the kids or should I?
H: crickets....

And just like that, I'm a part of the stat that most MLCers have an affair.

[DnJ]

Yes, affairs are staggeringly common. (((Hug))) I feel for you. It’s quite the gut punch.

24-48 hour rule.

Let go.

Take care,

D

[grok]

You were right, as usual. He's a grown man. And he has a lot of sh!t to figure out.

Yes, they do. And the more detached you get...without W or H goggles on... the more you see it.

After that baseball bat to the gut... I've wondered if we the LBS are not just now seeing them for who they really are, at least right now, instead of our "love" idealized version. ... where we excused or accepted behaviors where a better sort of love would be to call them on it ... or let them figure their sh!t out.

I quickly screenshotted, cropped and sent part of 1 of the emails, including the arrangement and the delivery address. Yup - not my address....

Well, you could find out who is at that address ... though that is snooping. Not so sure that is worth while unless knowing will gain you something more than the damage you take.

And just like that, I'm a part of the stat that most MLCers have an affair.

With dark humor and affection, welcome to this part of the clubhouse. We have room for you here. Fresh batch of cookies. Water is hot for tea or fancy pour-over coffee. Or perhaps that new bottle of red wine someone brought in the other day is your choice today. Put your feet up for a while and let those feeling cycle though. Time enough later for choosing actions.

g

[Valeska19]

I'm really sorry MG. I'm sure this is not what you wanted to see.

I second what everyone else is saying in regards to no actions. Emotions are high and rightfully so. Now is the time to allow them to wash over you.

Turn off the phone. Put away the emails and social medias. Pull up a box and tissues and just let it out. And if you have a RL friend that you have confided in during this journey - get the support.

Don't engage with H. There are no answers or conversations to lessen the pain.

There will be another time for to discuss how to move forward. For now - it is time to take extremely good care of yourself.

((MG))

[MamaG]

I let it out and I let it out some more. And, I'm coming to terms with having reached my limit. It took two years. H has broken me down. What we stood for is no longer. Twenty-four months of suffering is outweighing the 32 years of goodness he's provided. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

I mourned H's absence.
I mourned our M.
I mourned the future I thought we had.

Why am I a mess all over again? What could be left mourn?

Ahh....the kids...

I love our kids and I've considered standing for their sake. For the family unit. Their little hearts. Their future of having 2 of each future celebration. I thought I knew the definition of broken home. It's called a broken home for a reason.

At this point, I'm not sure what the definition of winning looks like. The idea of looking at their father who once meant so much to all of us. That's a lot to ask of myself. Today, H is an absent body who does a lot of complaining and lives for his happiness he can't seem to find. I'm not competing. Call me weak. Call me strong. Let 'em.

I now focus on re-forgiving the man I once knew. Love H. Forgive the sin. This, this may take forever. I hope I can get there. For me.

I communicated 2 simple boundaries. Stay out of jail. Do not step outside our marriage. Apparently, I asked for too much.

Confusion. Hurt. Emptiness. Heaviness. Sorrow. Even I can't fix this. Drop the rope. Fully. Fully, drop the rope.

Is divorce what I want?
Do I file bc the avoidant never will?
Do I tell our adult kids?

Year after year, February proves to be the longest short month.

[DnJ]

Hello MG

Is divorce what I want?
Do I file bc the avoidant never will?
Do I tell our adult kids?

Do nothing for at least one week. It’s impossible to unring a bell. Let your emotions settle before you make any major decisions. As you settle, you’ll likely find that need/want to do something will fade.

It took two years. H has broken me down.

I know it hurts. (((Hugs)))

You will get through this. Honest.

What we stood for is no longer.

Now, you discover what you stand for.

MG, H’s actions/behaviours do not dictate your’s. The moment just before you found out about H’s affair you were on a certain path, in a certain direction. So, what changed? I mean, what really changes for you. For your growth and life.

We've been getting hit with various bouts of snow over the last couple weeks. Shoveling continues to serve as a gym pass. It's been cold; colder than most Jan/Feb. High heating bills consume side-conversations. Today, I'm grateful for the physical strength I've been graced with while I sooth the emotional side. It's been a day.

It's been a bit since I've stopped in. I don't share much about what I don't need help with and I find myself journaling here when I need a shoulder to cry on or when I'm in need of support.

GALing continues strong. I spent an hour wrapping a number of gifts for several upcoming celebrations - remember my family celebrates EVERYTHING. It's a wonderful thing. Work remains busy and a great outlet. Dog1 and dog2 are a great comfort and have been showing up in many ways. You'll see why as you read through my update.

Yes, there will be a rising of extreme emotions. Temporary emotions. They will expectedly be reinforced for a spell, while you grieve (anger, bargaining, depression) and find acceptance of this new information. And then, those strong feelings will lessen.

H’s behaviour does not determine your path. You do. You control you. Thoughts. Actions. Reactions.

Give H to the man upstairs. Let Him work on H for a time. You get back to you.

(By the way, it’s super cold here too! And a stupid amount of snow! This morning it was -32C with around a -45C windchill. It’s being blowing so much lately. I clear the lane, and a day later, snow and wind and the drive is full again. Ten days in a row! Five times, over a foot of snow to clear! Brrrr. Really looking forward to spring. )

I communicated 2 simple boundaries. Stay out of jail. Do not step outside our marriage. Apparently, I asked for too much.

What were/are your predetermined actions if H violated your boundary?

I now focus on re-forgiving the man I once knew. Love H. Forgive the sin. This, this may take forever. I hope I can get there. For me.

An excellent and most worthy goal, IMHO.

Some “hopefully” helpful clarity for you.

“re-forgiving the man I once knew.” - It’s likely the newer alien version of H you’re trying to forgive. Good old H, is/was just that. Good. 32 years of goodness likely does not require forgiving.

“Love H. Forgive the sin.” - Absolutely. You forgive the deeds. The actions. The transgressions. The sins. Not “directly” the person; not the soul. The soul is God’s bailiwick.

“Love H. Forgive the sin.” - Like you wrote, two separate things. Loving H doesn’t necessitate liking him or more precisely his behaviour. It’s like a general love of your fellow man. And can be more of that old love as well, though “old love” is not a requisite for forgiveness.

I quickly screenshotted, cropped and sent part of 1 of the emails, including the arrangement and the delivery address. Yup - not my address....

M: Did she like them?
M: Are you going to tell the kids or should I?
H: crickets....

Drop the rope. Fully. Fully, drop the rope.

Yep, drop the rope. Or be dragged.

Let H feel what it’s like to be separated/divorced.

My two cents: Don’t tell the kids. And let H do the heavy lifting.

You got this.

D

[MamaG]

As usual DnJ, lots of good advice. You're a wise man.

Do nothing for at least one week. It’s impossible to unring a bell. Let your emotions settle before you make any major decisions. As you settle, you’ll likely find that need/want to do something will fade.

Yes, there will be a rising of extreme emotions. Temporary emotions. They will expectedly be reinforced for a spell, while you grieve (anger, bargaining, depression) and find acceptance of this new information. And then, those strong feelings will lessen.

In the moment, I wanted to blast this new information everywhere. I know better. And, you were in my thoughts....24 to 48 hours. I fought the rational thoughts and sent the text to H. Not sure that I regret it - truth darts are needed and overdue. I've been so un-engaged. Uninvolved. Non-confrontational. In the dark. In that moment, I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to scream from the rooftop to tell everyone. Validation seeking.

Two days later and already I feel lighter emotions.

What were/are your predetermined actions if H violated your boundary?

This made me pause. In my mind, it is clear what I meant but as I reflect on the words, I really wasn't clear. Still, these are low expectations of a H and still, he couldn't come through.

As I remember, my words were and have been, "Have you done something that would put you in jail? Have you cheated on me? If not, then we'll figure it out."

To me, the message is clear. And, unnecessarily stated. Still, here we are. And now I need to sit still in my thoughts and flush it out. Am I ready to dissolve my marriage? Thanks to this group, I know I can make it without H. It's my babies. My adult babies. Both of which continue to hold onto the idea of their family.

“re-forgiving the man I once knew.” - It’s likely the newer alien version of H you’re trying to forgive. Good old H, is/was just that. Good. 32 years of goodness likely does not require forgiving.

I forgave him 2/2023 when he had lied to me that he'd been eating edibles for 2 years and failed to tell me.
I forgave him 2/2023 when he said he cheated on me and then took it back (happens to be with the same OW of today). Was he in limerence then and this whole time? Thoughts?
I forgave him 9/2023 when he needed space because I was controlling.
I forgave him 9/2023 when he wanted a divorce because he'll never make lists; he'll never plan a vacation.
I forgave him 9/2023 when he re-wrote history.
I forgave him 10/2023 when he needed to house hunt and expedite a divorce due to irreconcilable differences.
I forgave him 10/2023 when he told me that if he stayed with me, he'd end his life.
I forgave him 12/2023 when he left our home and then kept coming around.
I forgave him 1/2024 when he wanted to talk everyday but never called.
I forgave him 2/2024 when he wanted to come for dinners 2x a week but then he was too tired from long days.

Then I learn about MLC and I continue to forgive him, through a different view.

I forgave him 2/2024 when I had breast cancer removed and he came to take care of me only to fall asleep on the couch and then asked me for water since I was up anyway.
I forgave him 3/2024 when he would come to the house and napped on the couch because he couldn't sleep at home, but then ran home to do laundry.
I forgave him 3/2024 when he told me that he was going to talk to OW and to others who have recently divorced to see if that's what he wants.
I forgave him 5/2024 when he went to the OW's home town for mother's day.
I forgave him 7/2024 when he went to SC for a concert with her.
I forgave him over and over again when he called their relationship a friendship. It's been a ride of many bumps and bruises. Lots of tears. Lots of forgiveness.

And now a romantic grand gesture for his friend...

At some point, his MLC behaviors outperform the good 'ole years. Is that where I am? I'll give it a week or two.

Don’t tell the kids. And let H do the heavy lifting.

Will he ever? What will it look like if my kids find out from someone else? Or run into him? Their little hearts shouldn't have to endure that.

Today, I made an update that informed my H via an auto text (from the cell phone company) that the billing address has been updated. I've been paying for the 4 cell phones. Not anymore. He can pick up that tab now.

Dropped off the tax file without his house info. He can drop it off at the accountant's. I don't need to be the middle person.

He has crossed a line. The bold flashy line that I have highlighted often enough for him to not have crossed it. I'm a different person. My outlook has changed. Findings on 2/15/25 are the straw that may have just broken the camel's back.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I’ve been there, the desire to blast out new information. To feel validated.

The 24-48 hours is of course for you. It’s to give one that precious gift of time and reflection. To allow one to respond, if they so chose to, from a place of more logic and reason rather than raw emotions. A better honed truth dart.

In your case, your truth dart sounded spot on. Short and to the point. No swearing or blaming or such. Just factual and direct.

Such truth darts do sometimes dislodge these stuck folks. It might get H moving again. To what end, well it’s his path. Time will tell.

Today, I made an update that informed my H via an auto text (from the cell phone company) that the billing address has been updated. I've been paying for the 4 cell phones. Not anymore. He can pick up that tab now.

Dropped off the tax file without his house info. He can drop it off at the accountant's. I don't need to be the middle person.

Good.

Don’t tell the kids. And let H do the heavy lifting.

Will he ever? What will it look like if my kids find out from someone else? Or run into him? Their little hearts shouldn't have to endure that.

My statement was/is more for the right now.

Will H ever file for divorce? I don’t know. You are prepared in case he does. And divorce is always an option you can employ if you need to.

As for your adult kids. Whenever and whatever they bring up, definitely discuss with them. However, problems between you and H are just that - between you and H. No need to drag them into it.

Yes, it is likely that at some point the kids will find out about Dad’s affair. Heck, they might even know or suspect already. You tossed a truth dart allow some time for H do this heavy lifting with coming clean to the kids.

That being said, at some point I agree you should/would tell the kids. When is that point? When it is needed. When it serves. When it isn’t done out of retribution or retaliation.

Remember, it’s not your job to facilitate the relationship between Dad and his kids. It’s just your job to not destroy it.

I found most times my kids knew much more than I did about XW/Mom and her behaviour. It was very little of letting the cat out of the bag on my part, and much more affirming and confirming my kids’ feelings. That gentle steering.

At some point, his MLC behaviors outperform the good 'ole years. Is that where I am? I'll give it a week or two.

I’d not compare.

Their MLC behaviour does outperforms the good ‘ole years. They’re are a different person. An alien. Their present “self”, there is no way you’d even date them.

It’s ok to remember the immutable past, the good ‘ole days, fondly. (Don’t get lost going down memory lane though. That pitfall is more ensnaring for newbies.)

It’s ok to despise the present behaviour. This is area of forgiveness.

Focusing on you. Letting go. GAL. Are methods to keep one somewhat insulated from this current mess. The MLCer’s behaviours and actions and words are like acid and will eat away one’s love.

It’s a balance. Not living in denial. Not embroiled within their storm. Not riding the rollercoaster. Living and loving your life. Boundaries help.

This made me pause. In my mind, it is clear what I meant but as I reflect on the words, I really wasn't clear. Still, these are low expectations of a H and still, he couldn't come through.

As I remember, my words were and have been, "Have you done something that would put you in jail? Have you cheated on me? If not, then we'll figure it out."

I agree these are pretty standard expectations of a spouse.

The way you stated them, are more like expectations, like wants. There is no stated boundary here.

Remember a boundary is for you. It’s not a punishment or some tactic to get H to behave better. It’s a premeditated and predetermined method to extract you from situations you find intolerable.

“H, when you do (blank), I feel disrespected. If you disrespect me, I will (action).”

An example: When you swear at me it is disrespectful. If you swear I will leave the room and not speak with you.

A boundary on cheating is usually difficult for one to craft. I think we look for the consequence, our predetermined action, to somehow be equivalent to the transgression. We try to craft something to demonstrate just how serious it is. Of course, an action of “I will divorce you”, doesn’t give much wiggle room, nor what we really want.

Something along the lines of “while you are with OW, you are not with me” I think is more palatable. It also has an element of “we can figure it out, if/when you get your act together”.

H, while you are involved with OW, you are not involved with me. I will not speak with you, visit with you, nor have you over at my house.

And be rock solid on your boundary. (Pretty much the Last Resort Technique.)

This places the ball squarely in H’s court. It’s on him. You are focusing solely on you and the kids. Letting go. Moving forward. Figuring out why and what you stand for.

I don’t think this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back. I think it’s the straw that uncovers just how strong you are, and what your foundations/convictions truly are.

Have a great day.

D

[Valeska19]

palatable. It also has an element of “we can figure it out, if/when you get your act together”.

H, while you are involved with OW, you are not involved with me. I will not speak with you, visit with you, nor have you over at my house.

This ^^^^^^!

And it gives you the space to really figure out what your dealbreakers are.

Time and space away from your H will help you find the answer. You are either going to say "I can live with this" or "I can't". But that decision requires you to be centered and living in your moral code.

It requires you to be 100% focused on your well being.

[MamaG]

Right now, "while you are with her, you are not with me" is easy to buy. A no-brainer. I am not struggling with this one. Two months from now....well....let's just say that I've been known to forgive and cycle. Somehow, I talk myself into he's mentally ill and I need to forgive. A glutton for punishment.

I tend to not speak my boundaries. I implement.

Can you help me with actions/inactions for these scenarios? Remember I'm better at not reaching out to him than I am when he's in front of me.

1. I dropped off the tax file and it needs mtg info from him. I didn't tell the acct. I haven't reminded H since the initial request. When acct calls for info, do I ask him to contact H directly? Be upfront now with acct about the missing info and ask that they reach out to H for it? Or, be the mediator since this is between H and I? Is there an option #4?

2. Daughter's car is in both our names. Do I get D involved to get him to sign it over? Or, is this another business item between H and I and I should leave her out of it?

3. If by some huge miracle, he responds to my text from 2/15, do I respond?

Thank you DnJ and Valeska.

I never did get back to the second half of Divorce Remedy. I'll re-read the last resort. Let's see if I can straighten the camel's back. Unconditional love is bittersweet.

[Valeska19]

Right now, "while you are with her, you are not with me" is easy to buy. A no-brainer. I am not struggling with this one. Two months from now....well....let's just say that I've been known to forgive and cycle. Somehow, I talk myself into he's mentally ill and I need to forgive. A glutton for punishment.

I try to remember that forgiveness does NOT mean okaying a behavior. Neither does acceptance.
Think of it more as loving from a distance.

1. I dropped off the tax file and it needs mtg info from him. I didn't tell the acct. I haven't reminded H since the initial request. When acct calls for info, do I ask him to contact H directly? Be upfront now with acct about the missing info and ask that they reach out to H for it? Or, be the mediator since this is between H and I? Is there an option #4?

Think of short term versus long term goals.

Short term - you may have to be the mediator...because taxes aren't something to mess with.

Long term - how do you set it up that you file differently for 2025.

2. Daughter's car is in both our names. Do I get D involved to get him to sign it over? Or, is this another business item between H and I and I should leave her out of it?

Short Term - I wouldn't get my child involved as this was a decision made between parents.

Long Term - Not sure what the benefit would be you having him sign it over if your daughter is making the payments? If you are making the payments - then its another discussion

3. If by some huge miracle, he responds to my text from 2/15, do I respond?

Absolutely not. You are dark unless its an emergency or the kids and technically your kids are adults so there shouldn't be too much to talk about.


I can't remember... have you spoken to a lawyer? If not - you need to. From there you can see what you can separate now versus with a "legal separation".

I'm all for allowing emotions to wash over you but in your case... I think it's totally okay that your anger is pushing you a little to stick up for yourself. I agree that in two months - you may not be as determined to protect yourself.

I've seen alot of LBSers over the years delay this part of the journey because they believe it will push their spouse out the door faster. They are afraid that making their spouse angry will confirm the divorce.

He will get angry. Let him.

You have to really ground yourself in believing that you are doing these things out of acceptance of a pretty sh!tty situation. This isn't about vengeance or spite. It's not about punishing him.

It's about realizing the truth and taking the necessary actions that you are protected.

You have no control over the train. It is moving. You are just trying now to not get hit by it.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Forgiveness is for you. Like acceptance, forgiveness does not mean you condone the behaviour.

You can both forgive and hold H accountable.

1. I dropped off the tax file and it needs mtg info from him. I didn't tell the acct. I haven't reminded H since the initial request. When acct calls for info, do I ask him to contact H directly? Be upfront now with acct about the missing info and ask that they reach out to H for it? Or, be the mediator since this is between H and I? Is there an option #4?

I agree with V’s short term and long term approaches.

I’d be upfront with the accountant about H’s missing information and ask them to inquire it from H. It sounds like taxes are joint so I’d ask the accountant to include both you and H in all correspondences.

You should consider next year’s tax situation. Perhaps speaking to the accountant will yield a better approach given your current living accommodations and such.

Option #4 would be filing taxes individually, not jointly. Might be advantageous. Rent, mortgage, household expenses, etc. Speak with the accountant. (You might even do it for this year.)

2. Daughter's car is in both our names. Do I get D involved to get him to sign it over? Or, is this another business item between H and I and I should leave her out of it?

Are you looking to transfer ownership to daughter? And insurance I surmise.

In my locale, it matters not if car is in one spouse’s name or both, all vehicles are considered martial assets. In this case, daughter’s car is legally not her’s, it’s a joint asset. If you are looking forward to stave off some contention in a potential separation, I’d suggest getting the car transferred to daughter.

3. If by some huge miracle, he responds to my text from 2/15, do I respond?

If it’s business, and it requires a response, fine respond. Otherwise, no. Be dark.

D

[MamaG]

Option #4 would be filing taxes individually, not jointly. Might be advantageous. Rent, mortgage, household expenses, etc. Speak with the accountant. (You might even do it for this year.)

The advantages of filing jointly help me and will offset income by all the crazy interest he's paying the bank. I'll end up owing Uncle Sam if I file separately. He'll end up with a return that he'll blow through.

I'll reach out to acct to confirm the above and request that he get remaining house info for the filing.

Not sure what the benefit would be you having him sign it over if your daughter is making the payments? If you are making the payments - then its another discussion

We bought this car for S and then upon graduating, it become D's transportation. H and I are owners of the car (no loan). As we did for S at graduation, I'd like to buy her a car and trade the one she's driving. In order to trade it in, we'll both have to sign the title. Seeing as he doesn't have $2 to contribute towards her education, I've already decided to not even ask for the $2 towards a car.

There is so much happening in the next few months requiring me to interact with H. The less I have to, the better for me. If keeping D out of the car interaction is best, I'll engage with H.

As for me....I'm not afraid of divorce nor him monstering. There's some fight left in this dog to see that battle through and come out on the other side. I know my worth and can look myself in the mirror. I've been a good wife and we shared a beautiful life even if it's just how I see it. I miss who H was. The good 'ole H was nothing like this. Sadly, I'm pretty certain that H won't reach out to me, ever. The shame and guilt have done him in. Through all the anger, I spot a glimmer of hope left in me.

Just before BD2, H's friend of 35 years got engaged and is marrying for the 1st time this weekend. Wish I could be a fly on the wall to see his face through the exchange of vows.

Appreciate the direction.

[MamaG]

My two cents: Don’t tell the kids. And let H do the heavy lifting.

Thanks to this group, I know I can make it without H. It's my babies. My adult babies. Both of which continue to hold onto the idea of their family.

That being said, at some point I agree you should/would tell the kids. When is that point? When it is needed. When it serves. When it isn’t done out of retribution or retaliation.

It never seems to be the right time to tell the kids.

D and BF have gone their separate ways. "Mom, I'm not going to do what you're doing. I'm going to move on." Ouch!

S is traveling for week 4 in a row and was sent to the next travel destination w/o even a stop at home base. Telling him over the phone doesn't feel right. Telling him on travel doesn't feel right.

As for me, I want to tell them. I don't know why. Still haven't been able to explain it to myself. Why do I want this in the open? Any ideas? All I can come up with is that my actions are shifting and I don't know how else to explain it to the kids.

Today, I made an update that informed my H via an auto text (from the cell phone company) that the billing address has been updated. I've been paying for the 4 cell phones. Not anymore. He can pick up that tab now.

Cell phone bill is overdue. Not paid. I'm seeing the threat of the phones being shut off. I'll let S and D deal with him when that happens.

Naturally, the kids will ask why now? Why now did I switch the billing? Well...I'm done funding his expenses, especially expenses that support a R with OW. (Can't say that bc they don't know!)

Such truth darts do sometimes dislodge these stuck folks. It might get H moving again. To what end, well it’s his path. Time will tell.

It's been crickets here. The wedding was last weekend. He left on Friday right after hearing that his father had been taking to the ER for fainting. They wouldn't discharge him without inserting a pacemaker. Yup, H went to the wedding. AND, didn't tell the kids (nor me) that his dad was in the hospital. H's sister texted the kids on Sunday afternoon.

H made it around to tell the kids about his dad being in the hospital on Tuesday morning - 4 days later.

D then asked how the wedding was at which point his demeanor changed. He sent a couple pics of himself. "I clean up nice, don't I?"

Arrogance and uber-confidence from his 20s still lives on....or at least that's the mask he's showing the kids.

On the day of surgery, D calls H to get an update only to learn that H is at work and not at the hospital. "I had to come to work."

H, while you are involved with OW, you are not involved with me. I will not speak with you, visit with you, nor have you over at my house.

Haven't had to worry about this boundary much...still no word from H. Not even info sharing of a man whom I called dad for 32 years.

Time and space away from your H will help you find the answer. You are either going to say "I can live with this" or "I can't". But that decision requires you to be centered and living in your moral code.

It requires you to be 100% focused on your well being.

How will I know? I still miss H. I'm still lonely and sad. Heartbroken. The kids not knowing weighs on me. I feel like I'm lying to them.

Sitting still and not taking action feels wrong. Impatient? Decided to move forward? I can't get it straight in my head.

Limbo may not be for me....

[Valeska19]

It never seems to be the right time to tell the kids.

D and BF have gone their separate ways. "Mom, I'm not going to do what you're doing. I'm going to move on." Ouch!

S is traveling for week 4 in a row and was sent to the next travel destination w/o even a stop at home base. Telling him over the phone doesn't feel right. Telling him on travel doesn't feel right.

As for me, I want to tell them. I don't know why. Still haven't been able to explain it to myself. Why do I want this in the open? Any ideas? All I can come up with is that my actions are shifting and I don't know how else to explain it to the kids.

My question is... what do they think is happening? Is Mom and Dad taking space? In the grand scheme of things - what's changed? Your H hasn't been moving towards the marriage in two years. It seems the only thing that has shifted is YOU because you were served a major truth bomb.

Your rose colored glasses got broken so now "hope" isn't clouding your decision making.

To me the explanation could be as simple as "I'm accepting your dad's decision and acting accordingly"

I really don't think you need to share anything else because again - nothing really changed other than the fact that you had a little bit of a wake-up call. As painful as they are... they are also necessary because the LBS stalls on taking care of themselves. Legally protecting themselves.

Wake-up Calls are needed to move forward with the best interest of SELF.

Today, I made an update that informed my H via an auto text (from the cell phone company) that the billing address has been updated. I've been paying for the 4 cell phones. Not anymore. He can pick up that tab now.

Cell phone bill is overdue. Not paid. I'm seeing the threat of the phones being shut off. I'll let S and D deal with him when that happens.

Naturally, the kids will ask why now? Why now did I switch the billing? Well...I'm done funding his expenses, especially expenses that support a R with OW. (Can't say that bc they don't know!)

I also question this. If anything - you could have separated his phone line from the other 3. Putting all the responsibility on H seems like an act of retaliation. You don't want to pay for his relationship with OW - that's fine. Drop his line from the rest.

AND - at what point is it your kids responsibility to take care of their own things? First you mention a car and now phones.

I can understand wanting to help them until college but what then? When do you let go and let them learn how to do it on their own.

I get it. I'm recently back in my hometown (after 25 years) and I'm reminding my parents all the time that I'm not the 19 girl who left all those years ago. So I understand the way a parent sees their children.

And yet - I would argue that allowing people to struggle in this world is greatly beneficial. Especially at their age as it will allow them to build the confidence they need to choose what is best for them.

Perhaps you can see the pattern here of your helpfulness. Or perhaps enabling??

Time and space away from your H will help you find the answer. You are either going to say "I can live with this" or "I can't". But that decision requires you to be centered and living in your moral code.

It requires you to be 100% focused on your well being.

How will I know? I still miss H. I'm still lonely and sad. Heartbroken. The kids not knowing weighs on me. I feel like I'm lying to them.

Sitting still and not taking action feels wrong. Impatient? Decided to move forward? I can't get it straight in my head.

Limbo may not be for me....

Isn't sitting still and not taking action what you've been doing for most of the past two years? I say that not to hurt you - only to emphasize that the only thing that's changed is that your hope got squashed. You put a ton of meaning into those little interactions. You put a ton of hope into that make-out session.

So now what do you do? Here are some self care examples in regards to your H. You're GALing seems pretty solid.

1. No initiating with H outside of children or bills ( I believe you are doing this).
2. If you are taking care of your H financially in any way - stop it. Separate phone lines, car insurance, etc. etc. Your H wants to be "single" allow him to pay for it.
3. Sit down with a lawyer. You don't have to file but find out how to protect yourself. Does that require a legal separation. Make sure you won't get in legal trouble for doing any of #2.
4. If you won't get in trouble - don't allow H in your home. Also - give him notice to pick up his stuff. Then put it on the curb.
5. Remove any photos or reminders of him in your house. Pack it in a box and believe that one day you will know what to do with them.
6. Block him on Social Media or get off social media for awhile.


None of these will feel great at first. Actually they feel pretty terrible in the first few days or weeks because it "feels" like you are giving in. It will also scare you that he will see this as "you giving up" or will push him to divorce.

That may happen. Which is why it's crucial that this step be about YOU and not being hurt anymore versus doing it to "get back at" or "get a reaction out of H"

HOWEVER what will also happen - is that you will start feeling better. You won't be surrounded by triggers as much and then can think more clearly about life and what you want.

We cannot stop the pain this world brings. But how long we decide to suffer is up to us.

Hang in the MG. I know this is most painful... but this is also the time where the most growth will happen!

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

As for me, I want to tell them. I don't know why. Still haven't been able to explain it to myself. Why do I want this in the open? Any ideas? All I can come up with is that my actions are shifting and I don't know how else to explain it to the kids.

I think you want it in the open to ensure your words and actions are interpreted correctly; so the kids understand where you are coming from, why you are doing what you are; so they know the path you’re on, your values and morals, etc.

Consistent demonstrated behaviour. Have faith, how you live your life will shine and show your kids far better than words will.

That being said, at some point I agree you should/would tell the kids. When is that point? When it is needed. When it serves. When it isn’t done out of retribution or retaliation.

It’s been two weeks. I’d suspect the initial “triggered” feelings should be somewhat muted, given all the inner work you’ve done over the past two years. You’d now be more able to see what you wish to do and why.

The kids not knowing weighs on me. I feel like I'm lying to them.

Ok. Feeling aside. Logic and reason. Are you lying or is H? Who is really living disingenuously?

So, tell the kids. How? You do not need to cover up H’s omissions or outright falsehoods, and you do not need to go out of your way to tell ‘em about Dad. Life will provide an opportunity, usually kids do bring it up.

If you want to unburden some of the pain and such from your situation, how you feel due to discovering H’s affair, and so on - talk to a trusted friend, or a counsellor, or write it in a diary/journal, or vent here. You do not need to burden your kids.

To me, that’s the yardstick of “does it serve?”. It is to serve you, assuage you; or does it serve the kids and their interests?

It never seems to be the right time to tell the kids.

There is never a right time for bad information/news. The recent death of my father, I called the kids that afternoon. Interrupted whatever they were doing. They were in the middle of work, university class, etc. Just told them and turned their day on its head.

I do not believe what you want to share with the kids warrants such. You can be patient for an opening during a conversation.

Also, being Dad of four kids, kids don’t hang on what we are doing. They got their own lives. Your daughter and son are likely going about their day to day activities with little thought about you or Dad. That’s what you want. Fully functional adults. My four kids have fully rich lives, that have nothing to do with me.

D and BF have gone their separate ways. "Mom, I'm not going to do what you're doing. I'm going to move on." Ouch!

That was an opportunity.

D - Mom, I'm not going to do what you're doing. I'm going to move on.

MG - Yes, I understand, and agree with you moving on. My moving on is slower, due to 30 years of marriage, vows, and that stuff.

I’d suspect that would/could lead to a discussion of relationships, marriage, faithfulness, vows, divorce, cheating, affairs, etc.

One of my conversation/examples:

My daughter’s first real break up happened post BD. Mom had thrown me and all the kids away. Mom had tossed daughter aside like she was nothing. XW took no Mother’s Day gifts, no precious gifts/pictures/etc that daughter had crafted as a child, or purchased later on.

Daughter was 15. I came home from work a little late due to a terrific thunder storm. As I drove through town, I saw daughter and her friend standing on the sidewalk in the downpour. Both were completely soaked.

I pulled up and rolled down the passenger side window of my work van. Even with the rain pouring down her face I could see daughter’s tears rolling down her cheeks. I told them both to hop in and I’d drive her friend home.

After dropped her friend off, we went home. I parked the van, turned to daughter and asked why she was crying. She burst that she and BF broke up. I said “just a second”, got out, when to her door opened it, had her come out, and hugged her. For like two minutes daughter hugged tightly back. Just standing there in the pouring rain. Thunder booming, sky flashing.

After daughter composed herself, I inquired what had happened with BF. He was mean, non caring, etc. I hugged her again, and let her know boys are pretty dumb at 15.

I asked did he break up with you, or you with him. That is when she really lost it. She broke up with him. Daughter blurted that she felt so bad to treat BF like Mom had treated me. To end things. Daughter felt bad. Felt immoral.

I told her I understand her feelings. And that heartbreak is painful. However, Mom and I had (have) a wedding vow, boyfriend and girlfriend do not. It’s ok, heck it’s necessary to date and breakup before you find a person who you’d spend your life with. Breaking up hurts, yet it is perfectly fine.

I asked if she was dating someone else while dating BF. No. I told her I agree with only dating one person at a time. And breaking up if needed. That’s a good moral conduct, in my opinion. You take it slow, discover who the other person is, and see where things go. From this, you learned some “red flags” and how to see them. That’s how we grow. That’s learning about life and love.

She thanked me, hugged me again, and we walked into the house, both soaked.

Sitting still and not taking action feels wrong. Impatient? Decided to move forward? I can't get it straight in my head.

Limbo may not be for me....

You don’t sit and wait. And for what it’s worth, I do not think you have been sitting around pining for H to return. You’re active, go to craft outings, trips, work, shop, watch movies, walks, and on and on.

Embracing/choosing limbo makes it not a purgatory-like punishment. Realize that. Choosing limbo allows you to choose for which parts of your life. Limbo is only for that romantic relationship facet. Everything else is open. Focus on self. Live and love your life.

Travel, go for dinner in a fancy restaurant, see a movie, go out with friends, and so on.

And, if you need financial security or protection, get it.

Embracing limbo, is really embracing you. Giving you time to discover who you really are. What you really want. How you truly want to live. Your values, convictions, and beliefs. Your tenets.

Hope you have a wonderful weekend.

D

[MamaG]

My question is... what do they think is happening? Is Mom and Dad taking space? In the grand scheme of things - what's changed? Your H hasn't been moving towards the marriage in two years. It seems the only thing that has shifted is YOU because you were served a major truth bomb.

I'm not sure what they think is happening but I certainly appreciate these words, "I'm accepting your dad's decision and acting accordingly." I like this response.

I now have confirmation of what I've suspected. Of what I've been preparing to hear/see. Of what I've fought to believe. And, yes I've been living life without H for some time. And, now I continue to live without H for some time. It's his crisis and he'll get through it at his own pace. What's changed? Reality. A gut punch. An awakening. Shock. Disbelief. A wake-up call.

Par for the course.

I also question this. If anything - you could have separated his phone line from the other 3. Putting all the responsibility on H seems like an act of retaliation. You don't want to pay for his relationship with OW - that's fine. Drop his line from the rest.

Agree. I'm not feeling too proud of. And, I'm perfectly happy with adding this to his list of bills. I'm no longer his sugar mama like he often referred to me. Never liked that term and like it even less now.

6. Block him on Social Media or get off social media for awhile.

Despite not having social media, just last night, I learned that H is no longer wearing his wedding band. He was tagged in a photo 5 days after I sent him the roses delivery confirmation.

And another gut punch. I know. I know. Actions not symbols.

I've been dusting myself off and getting up again. Plenty of practice lately.

I think you want it in the open to ensure your words and actions are interpreted correctly; so the kids understand where you are coming from, why you are doing what you are; so they know the path you’re on, your values and morals, etc.

Consistent demonstrated behaviour. Have faith, how you live your life will shine and show your kids far better than words will.

This resonates. I've come to terms that I don't need to tell them....at least not right now. The weight has lightened. TY for this. And, yes, inner feelings have 'muted' some. Some. I have pretty consistently decided to inform him that I'd like to give him his divorce. And, have been thinking through approach and words.

Logic and reason. Are you lying or is H? Who is really living disingenuously?

Truth!! Pun intended.

I talked with a friend I've confided in. She's been team MG since day one and supported of my wishes. After the affair info, she is talking about serving him. I don't believe she's coming from a place of bias. More a place of 'enough is enough' and 'this was your boundary...where you drew the line.'

I gave it thought all weekend and wasn't totally ready to file. Wonder if I've been pressing myself to tell the kids about affair because I was pretty ready to file. Both urges have subsided.

Today, I'm ready to put a plan together for moving towards dissolving the future of our M.

DnJ, your example of telling the kids about your dad hit home. I imagine that you stopped each of them in their tracks. Tracks of simple life events that stopped in an instant. What choice did you have? None. The point being that I have a choice. I still like, "I'm accepting your dad's decision and acting accordingly."

D and I held several conversations about her and BF. And, she happened to notice that our family pics were off the wall. On a couple occasions, she's asked why now. It was easy to just give a stare the first time - she saw I wasn't going to share. The second time, I responded with, "I"m not ready to say it out loud."

That should be a strong hint.

I now sit in silence to map out the order in which actions take place. Words to use. How to end a M I really loved.

Do I just send him an email? Is that cold? It feels so un-adult like. Yet, I don't want to be talked out of it.

Suggestions on email....
Hi H, I've taken time to reflect and I'm accepting the decisions you've made and acting accordingly.

Below are some items in flight.

The tax file was dropped off at the accountants. They only need Form 1098 to complete our return. I'm hopeful that you've been able to take care of that.

For over two years, I've been covering the monthly fees for all four lines since you first informed me of your wish to separate. As of Feb, the billing address has been updated to your home. I'm working on removing my cell phone line from the family account.

I'm also working with the car insurance company to complete the plate and title transfers for the vehicles by the end of this month. This will allow us to obtain separate insurance policies when the policy renews on 4/1. You'll be receiving an email from the insurance company soon.

As agreed, I funded the excise taxes at the Town of <Town Name> for 3 of our vehicles, as you offered to fund the excise taxes for the car you were billed for.

With respect to dissolving our marriage, I'd like to attempt mediation first? I hope we can get through this with mutual respect and avoid unnecessary attorney and court fees.

Regards,
MG

(It felt good to write that! and then I cried in disbelief. Am I ready for this?)

[MamaG]

Moderators - can you please remove the name of the town from my post? No need to overshare


Agreed. All fixed up. - DnJ

[MamaG]

Thank you!

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Today, I'm ready to put a plan together for moving towards dissolving the future of our M.

Ok. Give it a week or so. Ensure your reasoning and resolve is stable and non-wavering.

(It felt good to write that! and then I cried in disbelief. Am I ready for this?)

(((Hugs)))

This step/conviction is pretty new to you.

You’ve got time. That gift. Use it wisely. Focus on you and live. Let go H.

Ensure, your answer to “Am I ready for this?” is a yes, not a maybe.

Do I just send him an email? Is that cold? It feels so un-adult like. Yet, I don't want to be talked out of it.

With respect to dissolving our marriage, I'd like to attempt mediation first? I hope we can get through this with mutual respect and avoid unnecessary attorney and court fees.

Two paths: Emotional/Healing/Acceptance and Business.

When on the business side, be business-like. Conduct it as such.

My two cents. No email, no text, no call. Let your lawyer handle it. Have your L send H or H’s lawyer the paperwork.

H is not on team MG. There is not much point in trying to converse/negotiate with him, IMO.

Also, you do not want to unwittingly agree to some bad deal in some email. I’ve seen good faith, good intentioned ideas get twisted and become legally binding. Unsure all communications regarding anything D related goes through a L. You’ve got to legally protect yourself. H certainly isn’t going to.

You aren’t fighting, or playing hardball, or any such, you are simply ending this marriage - ending the business deal that’s gone sideways. There is lots of legal stuff to consider and your L is the expert. Utilize their expertise. And their distance from all of this. LBS are too close and emotionally embroiled in the situations, L’s are removed and remain more intellectually focused.

For most people, divorce is the biggest financial decision of their lives. To do so without a lawyer is pretty risky.

The tax file was dropped off at the accountants. They only need Form 1098 to complete our return. I'm hopeful that you've been able to take care of that.

For over two years, I've been covering the monthly fees for all four lines since you first informed me of your wish to separate. As of Feb, the billing address has been updated to your home. I'm working on removing my cell phone line from the family account.

I'm also working with the car insurance company to complete the plate and title transfers for the vehicles by the end of this month. This will allow us to obtain separate insurance policies when the policy renews on 4/1. You'll be receiving an email from the insurance company soon.

As agreed, I funded the excise taxes at the Town of <Town Name> for 3 of our vehicles, as you offered to fund the excise taxes for the car you were billed for.

All this ^^^, when/if you’re ready is not your problem. Let it go. Let the L sort it out. Tell your L your wishes and wants and let them do what they do.

D

[Valeska19]

Today, I'm ready to put a plan together for moving towards dissolving the future of our M.

Good. My opinion differs from DNJ a little because you have already been waiting! And having an idea of a plan is different from activating that plan. Whilst your head is focused on self - take that opportunity to be curious on what that looks like. I don't recommend sitting on stuff in your case, because you have a habit of lessening your importance over time. Better to take small steps when you possess the anger, adrenaline, etc to take that small step forward. Again... you are inquiring and planning.. not pulling any triggers. There is no risk here.

Suggestions on email....
Hi H, I've taken time to reflect and I'm accepting the decisions you've made and acting accordingly.

Below are some items in flight.

The tax file was dropped off at the accountants. They only need Form 1098 to complete our return. I'm hopeful that you've been able to take care of that.

For over two years, I've been covering the monthly fees for all four lines since you first informed me of your wish to separate. As of Feb, the billing address has been updated to your home. I'm working on removing my cell phone line from the family account.

I'm also working with the car insurance company to complete the plate and title transfers for the vehicles by the end of this month. This will allow us to obtain separate insurance policies when the policy renews on 4/1. You'll be receiving an email from the insurance company soon.

As agreed, I funded the excise taxes at the Town of <Town Name> for 3 of our vehicles, as you offered to fund the excise taxes for the car you were billed for.

With respect to dissolving our marriage, I'd like to attempt mediation first? I hope we can get through this with mutual respect and avoid unnecessary attorney and court fees.

Regards,
MG

I suggest not sending this email. Now is the time for action.

* You already told him what he needed to turn in for taxes. The next step is to ask yourself - what's the plan if he doesn't.
* Don't say you are going to separate the cell phone bill. Just do it. It takes very little time.
* I think you need to see a L if you haven't already. Cell phone bill is easy. Titles should be too if they are going into your kids name. Otherwise you need to find out what you can do legally in your state.

I know you don't want to spend money... but you need to keep in mind that you are the breadwinner here... so you have to protect yourself. Sometimes spending the money means a peace of mind that you are going to be okay.

(It felt good to write that! and then I cried in disbelief. Am I ready for this?)

I think this is the wrong question to ask yourself. Personally I think this whole "inner peace" around decisions can be a load of BS. There is also a saying that sometimes the right decisions feel very wrong at the time.

For myself - I dont often feel peace about healthy decisions for myself. Because I was raised not to. I was told it was selfish and so I tend to feel guilty first, selfish second... and peace... well I'm still waiting...

However lately there is something that nags at me in my current situation. Some might call it self-worth, others self protection... perhaps it is just a "gut" thing. Personally I feel like it's logic to the truth of my situation that I am working towards accepting.

Perhaps this thought could be helpful for you when it comes to decision-making. It help grounds me.

"This person has hurt me repeatedly. I do not wish to be hurt anymore. To assume that he/she will do something different at this time without changed behavior is unwise. I will do the following things to protect myself from this person hurting me"

And then I list the things that help protect me.

Of course at times I don't feel ready. Of course I'm scared and anxious at times. Some nights there are nightmares that i wake up from drenched in sweat. And Peace... what is that??

And yet - I still come back to this solid feeling in my gut that says "I don't want to be hurt anymore by this person". And it screams loudly every time I try to do something that puts me in "danger". I'm not even sure it's conscious at this point.

So you may not be ready to end your marriage. And sure I can tell you that your H already decided that...

... but did this last revelation put your body in the drive of "I'm not going to allow this person to hurt me anymore"? Because doing nothing could also open the door for more harm.

That's for you to decide...

[MamaG]

I took care of a couple business transactions and I'm feeling good.

Through the accountant's follow-ups, H responded and provided the remaining tax filing document to the accountant directly. That was a win as I didn't want to reach out to him. A 180 for me.

Met up with H today to gift the cars to each other so that I can get a single car insurance policy and not fund his portion. I met him at the location and got there a few minutes before him. When he walked in, I was upbeat, friendly, kind and treated him like one would treat a plumber. We got right down to business and were out of there in 15 minutes.

When I looked at H, my eyes couldn't help but notice that his face is sunk in. He continues losing weight and he certainly doesn't appear to be getting any rest. His hands were dirty almost as if he had been working on something...and the wedding band is on the finger. Interesting. Began to wonder if he conveniently puts it on and off to suit the moment.

When he noticed that my band is no longer on my finger, I could see that he hid his hand and then quickly exposed it. And was flaunting the band. I continued to look away and ignore the busy hand.

It's time he feels his consequences. No need to soften the fall.

On our way out, I informed H that I switched the billing address for the cell phone bill and that I was getting notices that the invoice are behind. He didn't know. hmmm. He quickly responded with, 'Well, that's fine but I can't afford to pay the bill so I don't know what'll happen." I replied, I'm sorry. I thanked him for taking care of the car gifting and handed him an annual bill that he also needs to fund that I'm no longer taking care of.

Asked him if he paid the excise tax and he said, 'not yet.

H is hurting but clearly not quite sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Self-care is important. Boundaries are flying. Enough is enough. No tears. No feeling sorry for him. I was as detached as I've been.

I have no room for infidelity. I wasn't built for this betrayal. Still working to forgive. Praying for a softened heart. Until then, boundaries are flying.

Kicked the radio up and sang my heart out the entire ride home. As I parked, I already had a text from him with the odometer reading that was needed. Responsible.

There is more business to come.

Filing is off the table. For now.

Didn't tell the kids about OW.

D asked if I had talked to H. I said nope. She was sad and asked why. I said, I'm accepting dad's decisions and behaving accordingly. After a lengthy stare, she said, OK. Her wheels are spinning.

H wished the kids a happy Pi day on 3/14. We used to celebrate with a series of pies. D ignored his text. S asked what kind of pie H was getting. H said he wasn't going to have pie. hmmm

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Glad to hear you got some business stuff cleared up. Nice to see the cars’ ownerships and insurances all sorted out. As well as getting his phone bill sent directly to him; not your problem anymore.

Yes, they do wear and not wear their wedding band/rings as their mood dictates. Of course, their meaning behind it flitting as their feelings ping-pong about. You wisely know not to read into such. H wore his band most likely with the intent of some kind of attempt to manipulate the situation.

Myself, I like my old wedding ring (faceted gold with eleven diamonds). I now wear it on my right hand pinky like any other ring. I also wear a leaf-patterned engraved gold ring from my deceased Dad on my right hand ring finger. Left hand ring finger is cat’s eye ring inherited from Grandpa some twenty years ago. Bling!

That’s only when going out. Everyday wear is no rings. I’m still working/remodelling, and rings increase the risk of electrical contact and mechanical entanglement. Work boots, baseball cap, and pencil on my right ear; that’s my day to day “jewelry”. lol

Hope you have a great Sunday.

D

[Valeska19]

Just checking in on your MG. How are the boundaries coming along?

[MamaG]

Thanks for checking in Valeska19. Lots has happened. I knew this would be the case - lots of stuff in the first half of the year. Our lives are tethered. I predict you'll tell me that I'm engaging too much.

I find myself sitting silently often. Pondering. Considering the fork in the road. I've been growing and healing. Glasses are clear, yet can still get rosy. Leaving behind what should've been is hard. Staying in the marriage isn't always appealing. As suspected, knowing what I didn't want to believe broke me. Feeling every ache has made for tough weeks.

I feel myself withdrawing from everyone. I sit in silence a lot. Deep thoughts. Little action. I go to work. I see family. I got out. Still GALing but find myself crumbling more in the quiet return to home. Perhaps, a set back. It's not so much fear as it is sadness, emptiness, disbelief, betrayal, disgust, anger, confusion, pain. Heartbroken. Acceptance. When I'm out, I show up with a mask. I don't want to talk about it.

I was detached until our interactions increased. Seeing H is the hardest thing I do. I show up kind, caring, compassionate, helpful, secure, confident, detached. And then an immediate emotional crash as we part. My feelings toward him are different.

We've interacted twice since my last update.

H offered to come by last Saturday to drop off money for business stuff. On Sat, he text to say he'd come Sunday. (This I've learned to expect - Sat quickly becomes Sun.) I informed him that I'd be around in the morning but had plans in the afternoon. No further texting.

Early Sunday morning plans had me out. As I headed home at 10, I saw him pulling into a little shop around the corner from my house - likely coffee. Three hours later, he texted saying that the money was in the mailbox. H drove around for 3 hours. I acknowledged his text a couple days later with a combined message about a loan taken in his name fraudulently. No response from him. I informed him and that's the extent of my responsibility. His problem to manage.

On Friday, I asked if he could meet up to sign the return the following day. "I have some things to do but could try to fit it in." He said he'd come to the house to review it together before going to accountants. And I take a deep breath....

H pulls into the garage, walks up the stairs, pets the dogs and into the kitchen with his hands in his pockets. I can tell he feels naked without his band. My thoughts: worry not, both of us have removed the symbol of our love. Yup, that hurt. I expected it from him because he seems to follow my lead and always has. I took mine off last weekend, which means he now can.

H grabs a mug to enjoy some coffee. Immediately, I tell him I want to sell the house and he's taken back bc we're supposed to talk about taxes. I apologized and we talked taxes, but kept shifting between taxes and house. I threw out many comments that he calmly responded to but was disappointed as he doesn't want to sell the house we built from the ground up.

M: Do you want to live here?
H: Yes, but I can't afford to.
M: What makes you think that I can?
H: You make more and mine is more expensive.
M: How do you know what it costs to run this house?
H: I don't.

M:We have a lot of family things and business items to resolve over the next couple months. After that, we need to clear out this house and make some decisions. This isn't sustainable.
H: What's there to clear out?
M: A lot. We have a lot of stuff. And for starters, you can grab all your boxes that I packed nearly a year ago. I'm not your storage unit.
H nods and sinks.

Throughout the 2 hours, I shared many of my thoughts - with a calm voice and with directness. Emotionless, yet impactful. Oddly, he took it all. No anger. No retaliation. No attempts to walk out the door. Just what appeared to be sadness on his end.

He noticed the house had been stripped of all things related to him. No pictures, no memorabilia that resembles him. He felt it.

We sat down to review the taxes. Yup, we owe. Shocker. Immediately, he offers to pay half.

Noted: this is the second weekend in a row that he's offering to take responsibility. No argument. No complaints about lacking funds. I didn't even have to hold him accountable. I like this.

And he begins to share about his life. Asks me some questions. And I ask, are you happy?

H: yeah (with uncertainty). Well...happier.
M: What? (in total confused tone) You aren't happy?
H: With teary eyes he looks away.
M: What's going on? Do you know where happy comes from?
H: Yes, from within as he points to his heart.
M: Then how can you not be happy?
H: Still fighting tears, he shrugs his shoulders and says that some days he just is not happy.
M: Talk to me. What's going on inside you?
H: Can I have a tissue?
M: I offer him a hug which he accepts quickly and pulls me in tightly.

M: Are you talking with anyone? Is anyone helping you? Anyone in the family helping you?
H: No.
M: Your family calls me all the time. They tell me they're worried about you. (Not sure how he took that.)
H: H shrugs his shoulders with no words.
M: Do you talk with God?
H: No. Well, some days I do.
M: You should consider talking to God daily.
H: H nods but I can tell it's his people-pleasing skills coming throug0h.

I then pulled away and told him, our marriage is broken. Our marriage is dead. You've done many things that warrant me hating you. Yet, I don't. I choose to love you because love is a choice. If you want help, what can I help with? In short, H wants to come to the house next weekend to talk. I suspect H won't talk, but if he does, I'll listen. It's been 6 months since he had some sort of awakening.

After reviewing the taxes, I told him, "While you didn't ask, I'm happy. I'm thriving. Life is great. I'd like to think that you would be happy by now." H got choked up. After some silence, I carried on. "Clearly, I took a different healing path. Would you be willing to try my approach?" He shrugged again and said, "Maybe".

Then without using MLC words, I let him know that I see him and know that he doesn't want to talk about anything related to emotions. Talking emotions makes him uncomfortable. He agreed quickly. I then pointed out a time in our conversation where he changed the subject. He said he noticed that he does that. I suggested that he let himself out from inside.

We'll see if he shows up on Saturday.

Interestingly, the first 20 minutes, he mentioned how hot the house was. He was perspiring. Took off his shirt and his inner shirt was soaked. Sounds to me like some emotions may have been running wild on his side and his body was paying for it.

When I look back on Saturday, I demonstrated extreme strength and little emotion. I was a different person.

As for the kids, no word from dad since Pi day.

Perhaps mom is withdrawing and dad is withdrawing as we travel this separate journey.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I feel myself withdrawing from everyone. I sit in silence a lot. Deep thoughts. Little action. I go to work. I see family. I got out. Still GALing but find myself crumbling more in the quiet return to home. Perhaps, a set back. It's not so much fear as it is sadness, emptiness, disbelief, betrayal, disgust, anger, confusion, pain. Heartbroken. Acceptance. When I'm out, I show up with a mask. I don't want to talk about it.

(((Hugs)))

One walks through depression to find acceptance.

Perfectly normal.

You’re doing fine.

Remain strong,

D

[Valeska19]

Thanks for checking in Valeska19. Lots has happened. I knew this would be the case - lots of stuff in the first half of the year. Our lives are tethered. I predict you'll tell me that I'm engaging too much.

Perhaps. I have thoughts - they may surprise you.

I find myself sitting silently often. Pondering. Considering the fork in the road. I've been growing and healing. Glasses are clear, yet can still get rosy. Leaving behind what should've been is hard. Staying in the marriage isn't always appealing. As suspected, knowing what I didn't want to believe broke me. Feeling every ache has made for tough weeks.

I feel myself withdrawing from everyone. I sit in silence a lot. Deep thoughts. Little action. I go to work. I see family. I got out. Still GALing but find myself crumbling more in the quiet return to home. Perhaps, a set back. It's not so much fear as it is sadness, emptiness, disbelief, betrayal, disgust, anger, confusion, pain. Heartbroken. Acceptance. When I'm out, I show up with a mask. I don't want to talk about it.

I agree with DNJ here. You are doing fine. Acceptance will eventually bring peace... but it the meantime - it's a complete b!tch. It's full of pain and sorrow, anger. Even the days when you beg for it not to be the case and other times where you wished you never loved H at all. It's really really hard. AND - I'm going to encourage you to reach out more for support. This is not something you should go through alone. It can help you be the woman you want to be in all this.

I was detached until our interactions increased. Seeing H is the hardest thing I do. I show up kind, caring, compassionate, helpful, secure, confident, detached. And then an immediate emotional crash as we part. My feelings toward him are different.

We've interacted twice since my last update.

Detachment is hard and a process...

.H pulls into the garage, walks up the stairs, pets the dogs and into the kitchen with his hands in his pockets. I can tell he feels naked without his band. My thoughts: worry not, both of us have removed the symbol of our love. Yup, that hurt. I expected it from him because he seems to follow my lead and always has. I took mine off last weekend, which means he now can.

This is a little-bit of mind reading on your part. You don't know how he feels.

And yet - this is really good opportunity for you to see this dysfunctional dynamic you have - lead and follow.

First - it creates a lose/lose situation for you in it's current frame. When you tell him you want him to stay - he doesn't do the work. When you accept his choices - he uses it as confirmation to leave and shift it onto "your actions and your fault".

He gives you the lead because he is too uncomfortable to take it - really. That's probably what the acting out is. False leading, false masculinity... that is much easier than taking responsibility and accountability. He's confused on who to be, how to be... and MG - there is not a d@mn thing you can do about it.

You didn't cause it.
You can't control it
You can't cure it.

So what do you do? You create a new and more functional dynamic. One that got lost over the years due to frustration, fear, survival, trauma, etc. etc. You hand the responsibility of your H back to him. That is in no way meaning you put your ring back on or don't move forward with accepting his decision. But below are some specific ways you could hand it back to him.

And he begins to share about his life. Asks me some questions. And I ask, are you happy?

H: yeah (with uncertainty). Well...happier.
M: What? (in total confused tone) You aren't happy?
H: With teary eyes he looks away.
M: What's going on? Do you know where happy comes from?
H: Yes, from within as he points to his heart.
M: Then how can you not be happy?
H: Still fighting tears, he shrugs his shoulders and says that some days he just is not happy.
M: Talk to me. What's going on inside you?
H: Can I have a tissue?
M: I offer him a hug which he accepts quickly and pulls me in tightly.

M: Are you talking with anyone? Is anyone helping you? Anyone in the family helping you?
H: No.
M: Your family calls me all the time. They tell me they're worried about you. (Not sure how he took that.)
H: H shrugs his shoulders with no words.
M: Do you talk with God?
H: No. Well, some days I do.
M: You should consider talking to God daily.
H: H nods but I can tell it's his people-pleasing skills coming throug0h.

I see the pain in both parties here. I want to acknowledge how hard it is to be sad and watch someone you love be sad too.

AND I'm going to remind you that this is not your work. Tell me I'm wrong when I say - you have had this conversation a million times before. Reminded him of his worth, what he means to you. How to help. Leading him on what you he can do. It has not lead to a lasting connection between you two.

Validate without fixing.

Stop saving him from himself.
Stop giving him suggestions to make it better.
Stop being that release value where he can express emotions without being the same for you in return.

Whatever fears you have around changing this behavior. It's time to confront.

He knows you love him. I promise he does. He's just not ready... and you have to be willing to allow him to experience ALL of his choices. Not because it will save your marriage (because it may very well not).. but because it is the LOVING thing for him.

And if he for some weird reason he doesn't know you love him - well you telling him won't change that either. His shame outweighs your voice of reason.

I then pulled away and told him, our marriage is broken. Our marriage is dead. You've done many things that warrant me hating you. Yet, I don't. I choose to love you because love is a choice. If you want help, what can I help with? In short, H wants to come to the house next weekend to talk. I suspect H won't talk, but if he does, I'll listen. It's been 6 months since he had some sort of awakening.

After reviewing the taxes, I told him, "While you didn't ask, I'm happy. I'm thriving. Life is great. I'd like to think that you would be happy by now." H got choked up. After some silence, I carried on. "Clearly, I took a different healing path. Would you be willing to try my approach?" He shrugged again and said, "Maybe".

No need to tell him how great or not great you are doing. Why? Because it doesn't move the needle. At this point - it just becomes fuel for his fire to stay confused or broken. Don't give it to him.

If you need to say anything due to being extremely emotional you can fall back on "I'm learning to accept your decisions about us. Some days are harder than others". That's your truth. And that's the reality of the situation. And that keeps the ball where it should be... in his court.

I do believe you setting up another conversation is you still in your old pattern. And yet sometimes I understand we need to keep speaking for our own sake. To help get us facing in the direction we need to go.

It's EXTREMELY hard work to allow our spouse to not choose us. That's what the begging, pleading, nagging, crying, helping, fixing is... a cry out for them to see us.. to choose us.

They may never do that in the end... but they certainly can't do it in the storm.

I recently re-read the lighthouse story because I find strength it in when I am struggling to fix an uncontrollable situation. The lighthouse doesn't go running into the storm. The lighthouse doesn't tell the ship how to steer. It doesn't dim it's lights or change it's lighting pattern to try and catch their attention (aka the negative and positive tactics we do to get our partner to see us). It's just there. Giving the captain the space to see if he wants to come home. And yet also accepting he can crash into the rocks should he choose.

A lighthouse doesn't have feelings but it's the same concept for us. Look deep within and break all of your previous patterns with your H. The saving, the fixing, being his release value from emotional pressure. Let him sit in all of his shame and negative thoughts. It's the only way he can make the decision to save himself... which when it comes to loving another... that's what we want for them right?

Stand firm that you love him but will neither do the work for him nor step in his way from what he currently chooses. And live that in every interaction you have with him.

[MamaG]

I'm still learning to sit back and allow him to experience his own consequences. I want to be able to see him without feeling a desire to fix him. Let him wrestle with his own story. Filling the emotional moments with an offered hug and rescue is my old pattern.

If you need to say anything due to being extremely emotional you can fall back on "I'm learning to accept your decisions about us. Some days are harder than others". That's your truth. And that's the reality of the situation. And that keeps the ball where it should be... in his court.

Using the offered script feels like a better option and I'll try remembering it in the moment. I want this only because I'm told this will allow him to grow. As for who I am as a person and want to be, I'm not sure this is it.

Watching someone hurt from afar and not help isn't in my DNA. Is that really more attractive in a human?. And becoming that person to save or lose the marriage is not how I look at it. I would offer help to a stranger in tears never mind the man I share 2 children with.

I've learned to not chase him. This I love to have gained. I don't call. I don't text. I don't reach out to H. Unless there is a business need. H feels that void. H doesn't have me part-time never mind full-time. I won't be a back-burner choice. I know my worth and am disappointed that he lost sight of it. Growing old together was his dream. Said often. To many. With pride.

I don't take any interest in the OW; she gets no air. Sometimes this part surprises me and I ask myself if I'm suppressing those thoughts or if I just really don't care to think about her. It hurts A LOT to know that he is capable of turning to another person. This I feel daily and sometimes hourly. This is where I hold him accountable and responsible for decisions he made. And likely continues to make. This is where my pain lies. I was loyal. I sacrificed my life to take care of our family. I was the motor and lost myself. And, the reward - betrayal. Wrapping my head around this being an option. An option the H I believed him chose. I hope to heal someday. This weight is heavy.

Seeing through this month presents our D's bday (dinner), Easter, our anniversary, his mom's death anniversary. These events, too, weigh heavy on my heart. Oh, and May, comes with more of these types of events.

So, I look forward to June when D moves back home. I need to be through this heavy emotional window and collect myself by then. She doesn't see this side of me. She may suspect but she doesn't need to see it. And, I know that'll bring on challenges of their own. (I remember moving back home after being away at school for 4 years!)

And yet - this is really good opportunity for you to see this dysfunctional dynamic you have - lead and follow.

Until I journaled it, the concept of 'H follows my lead' hadn't been a thought. And then you not only caught it, but highlighted it. Is this typical? Bc they've lost themselves and have just lived someone else's life, dreams, goals?

He gives you the lead because he is too uncomfortable to take it - really. That's probably what the acting out is. False leading, false masculinity... that is much easier than taking responsibility and accountability. He's confused on who to be, how to be... and MG - there is not a d@mn thing you can do about it.

It's unfathomable for me to think that H living in a world of hurt for this long is chosen over making a change. When your actions bring this much loss and pain, how foggy are things that you can't open your eyes to a better path. Whether it's a path with or without me. I'm not expecting a specific outcome. But I will say, if stopping over for a couple hours brings H to experience warmth and love, how do you not flock to that world as a way to run from your current choices? How his logical so far removed from his brain?

V, I trust you that there isn't anything I can do. But, can I ask you to elaborate more on your comment? As I said, it's unfathomable to me.

So what do you do? You create a new and more functional dynamic. One that got lost over the years due to frustration, fear, survival, trauma, etc. etc. You hand the responsibility of your H back to him. That is in no way meaning you put your ring back on or don't move forward with accepting his decision. But below are some specific ways you could hand it back to him.

Ring isn't on.

Whatever fears you have around changing this behavior. It's time to confront.

Wish I knew.

No need to tell him how great or not great you are doing. Why? Because it doesn't move the needle. At this point - it just becomes fuel for his fire to stay confused or broken. Don't give it to him.

I've asked myself why I said that. I think I wanted to rub his face in what he lost; fuel his fire. Not to help him stay confused/broken. Not to get him back. Not to move a needle. Perhaps as an softer alternative to what I'd really like to say to him. I'm struggling to like H. I wish I could stop loving him. Saving my marriage may or may not be possible.

I am trying to heal from the betrayal. I put on a front for my kids and when asked how to address H, I tell them to do what their heart wants to do. And, I remind them that H is there father and loves them very much.

If you're wondering, H didn't text nor stop by yesterday. I didn't expect him to based on the past. H may or may not pay for 1/2 the taxes he offered to drop off. I'd rather pay his share than to reach out to the shell I saw last weekend.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Watching someone hurt from afar and not help isn't in my DNA. Is that really more attractive in a human?. And becoming that person to save or lose the marriage is not how I look at it. I would offer help to a stranger in tears never mind the man I share 2 children with.

It’s more the forest from the trees. Pull your perspective back. Make it wider. With H is it helping or enabling him?

Big picture help for H requires him feeling his consequences and him growing up from them. Big picturing helping is allowing him to do so.

This harkens way back to not manipulating his journey. When one has a hand in something they take it on. You really don’t want to take on the responsible for his life choices/outcomes. H will, and is, continuing to make poor choices. You see it.

It's unfathomable for me to think that H living in a world of hurt for this long is chosen over making a change. When your actions bring this much loss and pain, how foggy are things that you can't open your eyes to a better path. Whether it's a path with or without me. I'm not expecting a specific outcome. But I will say, if stopping over for a couple hours brings H to experience warmth and love, how do you not flock to that world as a way to run from your current choices? How his logical so far removed from his brain?

H is being driven by emotions. He is in crisis, and cannot escape it until he walks his path.

Letting him feel his choices is not done out of malice or vengeance. It’s actually compassion, a kindness, it’s done out of love. You are not actively seeking out things to do to make H’s life difficult. You are simply allowing him his right to choose.

H knows you love him, want him back, want your family back and intact. You’ve told him. Yet, he chooses differently.

Let go.

Give him to God.

Let the man upstairs work on H.

H may or may not pay for 1/2 the taxes he offered to drop off. I'd rather pay his share than to reach out to the shell I saw last weekend.

Hold H accountable. Let him feel his choices. Not enable his teenage no responsibilities lifestyle.

How? Not by your hand. Pay your portion and let the IRS contact H for his. You might want to speak to your L or a financial advisor. Document what you paid and what H owes. If possible. Not sure of your locale’s laws.

I've asked myself why I said that. I think I wanted to rub his face in what he lost; fuel his fire. Not to help him stay confused/broken. Not to get him back. Not to move a needle. Perhaps as a softer alternative to what I'd really like to say to him.

Telling H made it real. Speaking it out loud made it real. You told him and told yourself.

Letting go of bargaining is weird. You’re letting go of the “old” and embracing the “new”. Thus, entry to depression and towards acceptance.

I'm struggling to like H. I wish I could stop loving him. Saving my marriage may or may not be possible.

You can love H and not like him. Or maybe more accurately, not like his behaviours.

I am trying to heal from the betrayal.

(((Hugs)))

Betrayal is the worst thing a person can do to another person.

Betrayal’s wounds are deep and heal very slowly. The pain from such actions from one whom we loved is indescribable.

It’s difficult, and IMHO important, to not harden over. Keep your heart soft and squishy.


I know it hurts. Do take heart, you are doing very well. Although it likely doesn’t feel it you are making some major steps here.

D

[MamaG]

Thanks DnJ for stopping by. Appreciate your support.

While you were writing to me, I was reading some other threads and find myself in a state of understanding H again. Cycles are mysterious. Our mind can be so tricked. Fleeting.

I have been focused on healing my own pain and confronting it so much that I've lost sight of H and what he may be going through. I've focused on myself which is the guidance. And then...I log a journal entry to my thread. Thoughts on paper make for reflection. I followed my entry with a couple readings within this forum. And just like that I cycle back to a soft spot for H. Unconditional love is wild and perplexing.

From the original first posting:

I thought it would be nice to start a thread on exactly what my thoughts are on why the spouse tends to run away during their crisis. I have done a lot of reading and listening to my friend about his thoughts and feelings during his crisis. So here goes.

Generally the man/woman in crisis has had a terrible childhood. Their childhoods consisted of parents that fought, drank, did drugs, physically and mentally abused their children, emotionally distanced themselves from their children, but most of all abandoned their children. The more I read about the various "learned" personality traits, the more I'm convinced that as children they were mentally abused to the point of not believing in themselves at all. They felt dirty, unwanted, stupid, worthless, their self esteem was shot to hell. The parents had these children, but really didn't love them unconditionally. Most of the "crisis" children have ADHD, ADD, PA, BPD, NP traits. They suffer from bouts of depression, are very good at lying, picking fights, defensive, and tend to self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, sex and spending. As I've listened to my friend, I've come to realize that even though "crisis" children appear normal on the outside, they have a constant internal war going on inside of themselves. They have been damaged beyond repair at that young age and it will take many years for them to even feel safe w/another person, if then. They feel very threatened by anyone that comes near them emotionally and physically. They can't handle it because they fear that this person will hurt them or take away whatever it is that they hold near and dear in their lives. As the "crisis" child grows up, he/she tends to be a loner, stays to him/herself and doesn't trust anyone to enter their safety zone. They tend to not show their emotions except in bouts of anger and are very guarded about their thoughts and feelings. They tend to distance themselves from others. I call this the dance, because when a person gets close to the "crisis" individual, he/she will distance enough to not feel threatened. You the spouse will never know the real person that lives within the "crisis" person until the two personalities are merged into one. The person you know is actually the shell of a person and he/she is very good at masking what he/she is really thinking at all times. However, during the major growing times, i.e., 20's, 30, and 40's (mid-life especially), the "crisis" person has another problem. It's at this time that the "crisis" child is starting to raise its ugly head, becomes stronger and wants to voice it's opinions on how that person was mistreated as a child. It's at this time, that the splintering/splitting occurs. This is where the crisis child is doing internal battle with the crisis adult. The battle is a 24/7 emotional roller coaster for the adult. The pain, hurt and anger are there 24/7 w/o any relief. I've sat and listened to my friend speak of many things that happened in his childhood and to hear the hurt and anguish in his voice makes me want to cry for him. It is at this time when the emotional pain becomes so great that the adult can't handle any other stress in his/her life. This person doesn't trust the spouse enough to speak about the turmoil inside. They feel that the spouse will not accept them for who they are right at this moment. Why? Because that person has now entered mlc and will be there for a while. That person knows that something is terribly wrong and knows that he/she must leave in order to heal those long ago hurts. If you recall, as children, when we were scared or punished, we all wanted to run away. Remember those times? Well, this is what is happening to your mlcer. They are very scared and very hurt and they only thing that they know how to do is run, as he "crisis" child comes on the scene. The best thing that this person can do for himself/herself is to go see their parents, sit down and actually talk to their parents about how they perceived their childhood and tell the parents just how hurt and angry they are for how they were mistreated. If they don't do this, it will take longer for them to heal.

As spouses and friends of the mlcers, we must always keep in mind that they are in a very fragile state when the "crisis" child gains control. They are so confused and hurt. The anger is not at you, but at what life has dished out to them. It's the hurt coming out and it's really a delayed reaction to how they were mistreated as children. We have to remember to treat them kindly and with compassion during this time. Why? Because this could have happened to you. During the "crisis" child stage, you will be viewed as the mother/father authority figure, therefore you are the one that gets the brunt of what is happening. They are afraid to speak to their parents for fear of what the parents will do to them. Who better than us to get the emotional flack? They know we love them, they just don't know how to deal with the emotional pain that goes so very deep. Folks, I've had many long conversations w/my friend and I can tell you, he is suffering terribly from his "crisis" childhood. Until he resolves his issues and speaks to his father, he will continue to run and never heal.

I hope that this will help some of you better understand what is happening. I'd welcome all of your comments. As time goes by, I'll post more of my thoughts and observations. Mlc is not a pretty sight by any means, especially if the mlcer is willing to sit down and speak to you about how he/she is feeling. That's why it is so very important to be a friend during the crisis. You will learn so much more about what is going on. Keep the expectations to zero and I feel very strongly that your spouse's "crisis" child will speak to you. Listen carefully, sift through the garbage coming out of their mouths and the answers are all there. It's not about you, but about them and how they were mistreated as children.

Thread link: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484259

As I read this (again), I'm reminded of a moment in my convo with H last weekend that I hadn't given any thought to. And, now find it interesting and it serves as a reminder of what crisis is. Your response to me supports the notion that these are deep wounds from childhood. A journey he must take on his own.

Anyway...

Last weekend, when we were on the topic of his family calling me all the time....and that he doesn't talk to his family, I specifically asked if he has talked with his dad. Not sure what prompted me to dig here. H responded with a simple word, 'no' but his body language shifted. H appeared agitated and perplexed that he would talk to his dad. At the time, it caught my attention enough that I probed a bit more on dad's relationship before letting it go.

M: Did you have a falling out?
H: No
M: Are you upset with dad? Did he do something?
H: No
M: Is dad upset with you?
H: No
M: Ok

Topic shifted. I gave it little to no additional thought.

Now I sit here and connect a couple dots. Especially after reading through the above previously posted entry. Reminders are helpful.

I remember that after H's mom died, I would ask H if he had talked with dad. He would always say 'no'. H didn't seem to have an interest in staying connected with dad. I remember mentioning how lonely dad must be without his mom. FB posts from H's dad reinforced his sadness/loneliness. H wouldn't say much, in true avoidant style. At the time, I didn't understand but also didn't make an effort to understand or probe. I would merely and periodically raise the idea of checking on dad. Sometimes he'd say that he'd call him during the day. Later, I'd ask if he did and he hadn't, "but I'll call him tomorrow. I had a busy day today." Throughout the 4 years or so that I'd periodically raise the topic, he may have called dad a couple of times (honestly now wonder if he really did call him at all) and he wouldn't have much to report. "Dad is fine." They interacted on holidays and all seemed normal. Again, hindsight, I realize that he didn't see dad for father's day since mom's passing. We would visit my dad and we would celebrate H. No call nor visit to his own dad on Father's day. Odd to me. H's dad got a text for father's day. hmmmm At the time, H would say that he wasn't driving a couple hours to see dad. OK, I'd say. Ultimately his choice. Different than how I treat my dad, but that's my choice. H always came along for the ride to see my dad.

Also interesting....After H's mom died, H'd dad asked us for permission to date a woman within a year or so of mom's passing. This may not have sat well with H, but in hindsight H didn't seem to have much care for dad even before that. I remember being across the table and comforting his dad and my words, "Do what makes you happy. You don't need my permission." On the way home I told H that I felt for his dad. "He's so lonely. He's hurting and needs a companion." Don't remember that H responded to any of that. Today, this makes me pause. What in the world may dad have done through the years? I shrug my shoulders and move onto my day...

The above entry suggests that if H would talk it out with dad, he may resolve internal struggles. Sadly, H's dad is weak and fighting a number of illnesses. H's time may elapse without the convo happening. Ouch

I know that loving him more hasn't been the answer. Trying harder to get him to open up hasn't rendered trust in me. So, I step back. When he's ready to receive my love, I hope to be here to give it to him. I guess I still have hope in the someday.

It’s more the forest from the trees. Pull your perspective back. Make it wider. With H is it helping or enabling him?

Big picture help for H requires him feeling his consequences and him growing up from them. Big picturing helping is allowing him to do so.

This harkens way back to not manipulating his journey. When one has a hand in something they take it on. You really don’t want to take on the responsible for his life choices/outcomes. H will, and is, continuing to make poor choices. You see it.

Thanks for the reminder. I've lost so much focus of H that his journey has been lost on me.

H knows you love him, want him back, want your family back and intact. You’ve told him. Yet, he chooses differently.

H knows I love him - that is true. Want him back? Want family back and intact? Not so sure. I haven't shared this with him in well over a year. And last weekend's "Our marriage is dead" comment may have actually told him otherwise. I'm open to your challenge here and am curious if you can? Could H actually believe that I want him back?

Telling H made it real. Speaking it out loud made it real. You told him and told yourself.

Letting go of bargaining is weird. You’re letting go of the “old” and embracing the “new”. Thus, entry to depression and towards acceptance.

DnJ, I'm sorry you had to heal from betrayal to become the wise man you offer me today. Hugs

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

H knows I love him - that is true. Want him back? Want family back and intact? Not so sure. I haven't shared this with him in well over a year. And last weekend's "Our marriage is dead" comment may have actually told him otherwise. I'm open to your challenge here and am curious if you can? Could H actually believe that I want him back?

I think the way you stated your question is accurate and highlights H’s turmoil.

You’ve told H you love him. Treated him kindly. And so on. H knows this.

Does he feel it?

Does he believe it?

Knowing something is different than believing it.

Consider the four paths/cars: physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. H’s cars are all over the place. And for most times his emotions are the primary focus. Depression is ever present.

The running behaviours are physical activities to try to quiet or quell that ceaseless pain and torment. For a spell, “running” does work. Albeit temporary, and with a high cost and collateral damage.

Also, there is the time travel. Teenager H is usually in control. That man child who was into edibles, got a tattoo, stayed out with friends drinking late into the night, carried two phones, driving and listening to music for hours on end, and so on.

H, the husband, is trapped inside. He doesn’t get seen very often. The crisis child doesn’t relinquished control. He, younger crisis H, has stayed silent and hidden, and will be no longer.

MLCer H knows everything H knows. MLCer H knows H is married, has a wonderful wife, has a son and a daughter, and so on. Yet, he doesn’t feel it. The teenage version of H wasn’t/isn’t married, nor has kids, etc.

Twisting that up even more, is of course the crisis. The unresolved unrecognized long ago trauma(s).

Does he (H and/or MLCer H) believe it?

Belief is an interesting state. There are components of both intellect and emotion. Both are together and pulling in the same direction. One can still intellectually debate or challenge their beliefs; for what good are beliefs/values/convictions if they cannot withstand scrutiny. Yet beliefs go beyond the sum of their intellectual and emotional parts. Far beyond. Well founded beliefs become life’s headings and instil and influence thoughts and feelings and physical actions.

MLCer H is in torment. He does not, cannot, believe in himself. Or anyone. He is emotionally thrashing about, brooding, depressed, sad, lost. The big problem is that poor crisis kid believes they are unworthy. Believes. Fully. And they have to undo the decades of believing that.

Alas, that is beyond our power. Nothing we do or say matters. And yet, everything we do or say does.

There is no magic bullet here. No well crafted words to shake their crisis’ fierce grip upon their soul. The best the LBS can be is a lighthouse. Shine. Illuminate the rocks. Stand tall and strong against the storm. And live and love our life. It’s up to the captain of that lost ship as to their course.

Does he believe it? IMO, H does. MLCer H doesn’t, or can’t, for he is enveloped in his own crisis and pain.

It is this altering of MLCer H’s belief that is the exiting of the crisis, and finding acceptance. Basically, MLCer H would merge with H.

DnJ, I'm sorry you had to heal from betrayal to become the wise man you offer me today. Hugs

Thank you.

My life has been an interesting journey. It certainly took a sharp and unexpected turn eight years ago.

Have a great day!

D

[Valeska19]

And yet - this is really good opportunity for you to see this dysfunctional dynamic you have - lead and follow.

Until I journaled it, the concept of 'H follows my lead' hadn't been a thought. And then you not only caught it, but highlighted it. Is this typical? Bc they've lost themselves and have just lived someone else's life, dreams, goals?

It seems a bit more complicated than that. Here are my thoughts from the bleacher seats.

It seems you and H are opposites. You seem like a "take charge" lady. On top of the bills, have the better job. Take care of the house. Total high functioner.

Your husband seems more chill.

Probably why you two were attracted to each other. You each posses traits the others wish they had more of. You probably push him. He probably relaxes you.

This dynamic works fine as long as the balance stays. But when it becomes unbalanced - cracks turn to chasms and things happen. Like the parent-child dynamic. The over/under functioner dynamic. Resentment for the one always doing most of the work. The need to rebel from the one being told to do more work. And the list continues.

You don't necessarily describe your H as someone who as always taken charge. In fact - you say that he often follows you. As you said - you take care of the bills, take the lead on the taxes..etc.

So from my perspective - it looks like your opposite attraction turned into an unbalanced relationship. And when that happens... BOTH people loose themselves to some degree.

If you are always telling H what could be beneficial to him, Where does he get the space to figure out his own answers on what's best for him?

If you are always swooping in to save him, how does he know he is confident to save himself?

Please do not take this as this is your fault. It is not. He is a grown man who is 100% responsible for his choices and processing his own feelings.

AND yet - when there is a dance... it's easier to follow when the steps are given to you. And yet - there is a part we all play.

So many people dodge this question on this board. We automatically go to MLC, previous trauma... etc. But what we fail to realize is that only addresses the coping strategy used to "deal with" whatever happened. We forget that something happened that caused them to use that unhealthy coping mechanism. So even if they learn better coping tools, the problem may still exist. Sometimes that is external. A family death. A traumatic event. Sometimes though... it is the marriage breaking down. Sometimes it is a dynamic that is no longer working.

Your marriage stands the best chance if you let him go. Loosen your grip on him that you've been unknowingly tightening over the years by doing so much for him. Yes - he may not choose you - and that is fvcking terrifying and heartbreaking. But if he does... he will do so because HE feels he's ready. Because he's confident again. Because he can see that you believe in him again.

You can't just say the words. You have to show him in your actions. And a big way is to stop being so "helpful", It's time to stop hiding behind that. It's time you see it as a more complicated answer. Yes.. part of it is from a loving place. But part of it is from another place too. Google "HFC" and "Too Much" and see if any of it rings true for you.

He gives you the lead because he is too uncomfortable to take it - really. That's probably what the acting out is. False leading, false masculinity... that is much easier than taking responsibility and accountability. He's confused on who to be, how to be... and MG - there is not a d@mn thing you can do about it.

It's unfathomable for me to think that H living in a world of hurt for this long is chosen over making a change. When your actions bring this much loss and pain, how foggy are things that you can't open your eyes to a better path. Whether it's a path with or without me. I'm not expecting a specific outcome. But I will say, if stopping over for a couple hours brings H to experience warmth and love, how do you not flock to that world as a way to run from your current choices? How his logical so far removed from his brain?

I heard this in a book I'm reading and it's profoundly true. Paraphrasing of course.

Who are you to say that your H isn't exactly in the place he is needed to be in so he can learn this lesson. Perhaps it will lead to a final healing. Perhaps not.

Either way... you are not God... so who are you to say what lessons he needs to learn when.

And Finally leaving you with one of my favorite quotes.

“Compassion is not a relationship between the healer and the wounded. It's a relationship between equals. Only when we know our own darkness well can we be present with the darkness of others.” - Pema Chodron

Focus on yourself. On why you choose to avoid your why you own hardships, demons, traumas, etc.

It will take you alot farther than you continually trying to understand his.

[MamaG]

I'm now on the other side of surviving numerous family events. I'm mostly detached and don't have any foreseeable reasons to reach out to H for anything. Over the last few events, I was less and less friendly with H. To reference Valeska, the dance has changed. It just happened. It was not deliberate. I just don't dance to this music anymore.

D, BF and I carpooled to D's bday dinner. H was in parking lot and came in after he saw us. H came and sat next to me. We had one exchange through the 2 hours. H shook his leg and was perspiring profusely, wiping his head numerous times through the dinner. Although noticed by all, H was the only one who made a comment. "It's hot in here." We just nodded. There was lots of conversation. Laughs. H was listening. On the way home, D mentioned that dad didn't share anything about himself. He just took it all in. I validated. She asked if I was ok. I confirmed that dinner was great.

Easter was beautiful. S and GF spent the night on Saturday and D and BF came in the morning for church services and Easter baskets. S notices a travel bag for toiletries amongst his Easter treats and is excited because of all his travel. The bunny brings practical gifts and candy now that they're adults. S starts reading what the various sample sized toiletries are. Shampoo, body wash, ball toner.... Ball toner? MOM! We all burst out laughing. BF is now reading through the toiletries in his bag and finds ball deodorant. More laughs. Let's just say that my eyes aren't quite what they used to be. Glasses should be worn when making purchases. This was Easter dinner's topic of conversation with the larger family too. "The lads will be clean." We had a great Easter. The 4 of them went to SIL's to visit with dad. D headed to BF's after SIL's house and calls me.

D: This is why I don't want to tell dad anything. He then uses all the information to share at auntie's house as if he's been involved in my life. If we hadn't talked during my bday dinner, dad wouldn't know anything. He acted like we're a happy and involved family.
M: I nod and apologize.
D: I'm not sharing anything with him anymore.

H continues to pretend. Wear a mask. Showing what an involved and great dad he is for the world to admire. We know otherwise.

Our wedding anniversary came and went without acknowledgement - not surprised. But, I celebrated without H by taking a mini vacation after Easter to the sunshine state, visiting a couple girlfriends. No alarm, no work, no schedule. We enjoyed the beach, sun, laughs, wine. GF watched our fur babies. I came home rejuvenated with sun kissed skin. Dogs were happy to have me but began missing GF. GF crocheted a coat for Dog2 - it didn't fit although she said she tried many times to make it work. Dog2 wasn't having it. She said she'll keep trying. We laughed.

The death anniversary of H's mom came and went. I prayed for him and for her on my own. That was the extent of my warmth. Last year I sent a message to him and his family. Not this year. Decisions have consequences. I've accepted his decisions and am behaving accordingly.

At S's bday dinner, traffic held me and I arrived fashionably late. The 5 of them were enjoying drinks and had poured me one from the 2 pitchers ordered for the table - it was Cinco de Mayo after all. I greeted the kids with individual hugs and kisses and never even looked H's way at the table. H tried to engage with subtle attempts. Answering questions I made towards the table. Offering me his water. I wasn't up for any engagement. There was no eye contact and no responses from me. H noticed and felt it. From my view, H felt like an outsider - or at least I would have. H stared at me quite a bit - perhaps curious where my deep tan came from since all we've gotten is rain. My shift in lacking response and engagement was confusing to him and the kids. Once dinner was over, I excused myself and headed out. D called me once she got home which tells me they left minutes after I excused myself.

I'm not carrying the conversations nor the emotional weight like I did. Someone else can step up.

I'm not the same person. I don't care to show warmth to H who walked out and then welcome him showing up for the good moments only to abandon all of us later. No more breadcrumbs. S still soaks up dad as long as dad offers some laughs. GF sees otherwise.

Mother's day was wonderful. S spent the day and night with me leading into Mother's day. We then had a big family dinner at my mom's with cousins and aunt/uncles, followed by a game of badminton. We were reminded that we're no longer teenagers but we still gave it all we could. We remain competitive and enjoy each other. So many laughs.

D's graduation and celebration was a success. I had the tickets and sent a group text to the 8 so that we knew when and where to meet. When I arrived, I shared hugs, kisses, warmth, laughs with everyone. Well almost everyone. I skipped right over H and his sister (SIL). They looked my way for their turn. Nope. H tried to engage in surface level dialogue a couple of times through the ceremony and I either ignored him (as if I didn't hear him) or provided a short answer while looking straight ahead - no eye contact. H would look my way to see if I would connect with him. Nope. H then asked a question and I stared at him for a bit and then mustered up a few words, "Because I do." H was not happy based on his response with a huff. I simply have no interest in H's part-time family manners. I knew that once I learned about a PA, things would not be the same. I tried for the month of Feb/Mar to forgive and I'm not clear where I am with forgiveness. I do know that I have little more to give H. It was out of character for me - feeling like I was treating him poorly. Nope - I was holding boundaries to protect myself. Consequences. He no longer benefits from my warmth, care, love. It may hurt. Yet, I've accepted his decisions and am behaving accordingly.

There is no magic bullet here. No well crafted words to shake their crisis’ fierce grip upon their soul. The best the LBS can be is a lighthouse. Shine. Illuminate the rocks. Stand tall and strong against the storm. And live and love our life. It’s up to the captain of that lost ship as to their course.

H's mask and stories aren't going to hold ground forever. Not my concern. SIL is 'not getting involved' as she doesn't 'want to lose' her brother. Then carry on SIL....without me. She was so stunned. SIL didn't eat or drink a thing at the grad party - not like her. After 30+ years, I expected more from her, even if she's equally avoidant. I no longer rationalize being present with humans/family who can't show up for me.

As for me, I ate, drank, danced and shared my vibrant self at the party. Looking back through the pictures confirms that I'm so blessed.

Focusing on myself has never been my strong suit. It never felt right, healthy, kind. I know I'm worthy. So, then why don't I put myself first in thoughts, considerations, choices? I see now that I've lived a life for others from a very young age. I would have continued down this path and been perfectly content. I'm aware that I don't choose for myself, and still I'm comfortable. There is not much that I am strongly opiniated about to make a choice for myself. Burgers or steak? I'll enjoy both. Movie theater or Netflix? I'll enjoy both.

I'm grateful for no longer fully carrying the emotional weight of the family. I'm better. Not perfect.

I still get triggered when I feel unseen, unheard, not understood. I catch myself and talk myself through it. I feel this most with mom, dad and kids. Working on being more grounded. More centered. Drinking STFU smoothies and processing it all.

Feeling second best is my narrative when the call doesn't come in. When I invite but am told they've made other plans even though we had tentative plans, I feel it. Working on this too.

MLCer H is in torment. He does not, cannot, believe in himself. Or anyone. He is emotionally thrashing about, brooding, depressed, sad, lost. The big problem is that poor crisis kid believes they are unworthy. Believes. Fully. And they have to undo the decades of believing that.

Your marriage stands the best chance if you let him go. Loosen your grip on him that you've been unknowingly tightening over the years by doing so much for him. Yes - he may not choose you - and that is fvcking terrifying and heartbreaking. But if he does... he will do so because HE feels he's ready. Because he's confident again. Because he can see that you believe in him again.

You can't just say the words. You have to show him in your actions. And a big way is to stop being so "helpful", It's time to stop hiding behind that. It's time you see it as a more complicated answer. Yes.. part of it is from a loving place. But part of it is from another place too. Google "HFC" and "Too Much" and see if any of it rings true for you.

I've done some reading. I've looked into HFC and Too Much. I've read some attachment theory articles and the impact on one's life. It's helped in dropping the rose glasses. Managing H's emotional immaturity was exhausting. More exhausting than I ever realized. I chased and was left empty many times. It only made me chase harder and love harder. This wasn't healthy and I have no plans to return to such a dance. I choose me.

Still....

I feel cold when I don't provide warmth to all. I feel sad, disappointed. I feel many things...even sorry for H. Love (for H) doesn't seem to surface. It's either on a shelf or in the dumpster. I can't tell. I still cycle between wanting to file and holding space. "I don't have to decide today" is repeated to myself often.

The kids are confused. From time to time, they appear upset with me for changing the comfort of family engagements. Mostly confused. I haven't confessed about the affair but I surmise they may know/assume more than I've told them. My obvious shift may tell the story. Both of them engaged with dad at all the events as if nothing happened. I no longer care to.

Some of me feels proud for standing up for myself. Some of me feels sad for having to accept my new normal. Most of me feels drained and exhausted. Even confused. Still some disbelief knowing I may never trust again. I may never open myself up and be so vulnerable. This is not a path I would've signed up for. I would prefer to trust. to be open. to be giving. to be who I am. I may not have been perfect but I certainly liked me. It hurts so much to realize how different I am, yet don't necessarily see the value in going through this pain. Maybe I will someday. I've not given up on opening myself up to trust again.

I'll be visiting with my nephew later for prom pictures and then enjoying a dinner with brother and mom. Graduation and grad party next weekend. So proud of him and looking forward to celebrating him.

D is moving home next month. While excited, I have mixed feelings. I've lived alone for 1.5 years. She's lived outside the home for 4 years. There will be an adjustment.

I have some summer plans coming together. S and D want me to go with them to cousin's wedding overseas. Cousin was my flower girl and biologically H's cousin. Bride's parents and even other family members on H's side are begging me to go. Literally begging and convincing me. Most of H's family sides with me and isn't afraid to say it. SIL is the only one I asked to get involved with H - she agreed to but certainly hasn't done a thing. Actions over words.

House keeps me quite busy especially now with the outdoor tasks needing attention. I hired H's nephew to mow the lawn (SIL's son). He's learning how to use our tools and we're maintaining a relationship. I was invited to his graduation and graduation party. I'll likely attend the graduation with D (she's uneasy about going without me), but likely won't go to party next month. The collateral damage is devastating and the hardest thing that I continue to process.

Valeska and DnJ - I will continue to thank you for responding. I read and read and read your responses. It takes a couple reads for me to grasp it all. Applying boundaries continues to feel horrible. It makes me question my Christianity. I'll keep working at it.

[grok]

Ha. I think MamaG is taking cues from the length of my posts. Saving it all up into one big story.

g

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

What a wonderful update. Family, friends, food, and fun. Blessed indeed.

H’s behaviour sounds pretty standard. Gathering all the data he can, sharing nothing, while trying to show how involved he is in his kids’ lives. Like your daughter, my kids saw through their Mom’s pitiful efforts and share with her very little.

I tried for the month of Feb/Mar to forgive and I'm not clear where I am with forgiveness. I do know that I have little more to give H.

You don’t give to H, you give to yourself.

You give the forgiving of H to you, not him. I know, sounds weird.

Trying to forgive the person, or give forgiveness, makes it transactional. And without a reciprocal transaction from the other side, the deal falls through. Forgiveness falls through.

You forgive the deed, not the person, without anything from them. Forgiveness has very little to do, nothing to do, with the other person. It’s not about them deserving it, or earning it, or anything like that. It’s about you finding, giving yourself, peace.

It was out of character for me - feeling like I was treating him poorly. Nope - I was holding boundaries to protect myself. Consequences. He no longer benefits from my warmth, care, love. It may hurt. Yet, I've accepted his decisions and am behaving accordingly.

Yep. Boundaries are good. And there are consequences to actions.

Some of me feels proud for standing up for myself. Some of me feels sad for having to accept my new normal. Most of me feels drained and exhausted. Even confused. Still some disbelief knowing I may never trust again. I may never open myself up and be so vulnerable.

I get it. Been there. Perfectly normal to feel this way.

Feelings are fleeting. Let them flit.

Look to your beliefs. Look to your intellect. What does it take to trust? What does it take to be vulnerable?

This is not a path I would've signed up for. I would prefer to trust. to be open. to be giving. to be who I am. I may not have been perfect but I certainly liked me. It hurts so much to realize how different I am, yet don't necessarily see the value in going through this pain. Maybe I will someday. I've not given up on opening myself up to trust again.

Oh yes. Not a path I wanted either.

Have faith, there is value going through all that pain. On the other side, trust becomes very valuable. Trustworthiness. Not just a word. A way of life.

My experience, I can and do trust, again. It’s how I live. Sincere. Trustworthy. Loyal. Etc. To self. To others.

This journey has made trust, and the breaking of trust, very heightened. I do more default trust than distrust. Cheating, lying, and other untrustworthy behaviour has boundaries and consequences from me. People, businesses, if untrustworthy are pretty much out of my circle. Any further interaction is very limited and protected. And for those who demonstrate trusting behaviours, my faith in them grows.

Trust issues stem from previous betrayals and experiences. It takes work to heal from the betrayal in these situations here. To find your core. To trust yourself and therefore be able to extend faith and open up to another’s reliability and integrity.

It was funny when years ago I realized I don’t have trust issues. XW is untrustworthy. There is no issue.

Trust it seems, like forgiveness, has more to do with self than others.

Have a great day.

D

[MamaG]

It was funny when years ago I realized I don’t have trust issues. XW is untrustworthy. There is no issue.

Trust it seems, like forgiveness, has more to do with self than others.

Isn't that the truth? XW (H) is untrustworthy. I'll continue to work on forgiving and in trusting - for me. Thanks for the reminder DnJ.

I was unsettled most of this week. The unexpected surfaced. While I looked forward to no H involvement or engagements, H was invited by my brother to nephew's graduation ceremony. Hmm. Sister asked if H would go. I confidently responded with 'it's unlikely'. Why would he drive an hour to to commencement knowing we'd all be there? The mirror he's been avoiding for 2 years?

Surprise...H drove the hour. Alone. What?! Why would H attend nephew's graduation knowing that my entire family would be present? Just why? Why would H want to face everyone he hasn't engaged with for so long? And, I've not been speaking to him at engagements that we're both at (D's bday dinner, S's bday dinner, D's graduation). I know - MLC isn't logical. Still, it's a SMH moment.

School provided lunch after the commencement and H came right up to the table that D and I were sitting at with BIL and nephew/niece. H is quiet and wallowing. He shakes BIL's hand with an optimistic 'hello' and receives a lack of typical engagement from BIL. Uncomfortable for my family as they didn't expect him. D talks to him about the salmon being really tasty. H quietly walks away and right up to my mom. H greets her like nothing has happened and proceeds to grab lunch. Somebody wake me up from this nightmare. H grabs some lunch and goes to sit on the other side of the hall.

Somebody make this make sense!

D is stunned. Uncomfortable and unsure of why he'd attend. I had no good answers.

The next day is graduation party at brother's house. S comes in bright and early. He and I go through childhood memories that have been stored away in a tote. We reminisce and share some laughs. We make the requested mango guacamole and head over to the graduation party. It was a hit. BIL: you can make this again. YAY!

A couple hours into the party:
D: I'm so glad he didn't come.
Me: Who didn't come? I was so confused by her comment.
D: Dad.
Me: Ohhh, I said in surprise. Dad doesn't bother me. Don't let him bother you. If he came, I would have quietly excused myself.
D and S: No response. They're observing and listening intently. No questions.

Took some of yesterday and today for me to find my center. I'm back.

Blew some left over fall/winter debris from around the perennials today. Washed some floors, ran a load of laundry and tidied up for the work week.

Every spring, we have birds who choose to build nests in the same spots. Checked in this afternoon - 3 robin eggs this year. So precious.

The rain stopped for 2 full days - finally was able to water the various tomato and pepper plants. LOL

Despite eating a hearty breakfast sandwich, I was ready for a lunch earlier than I thought. Sautéed some peppers and onions with some steak and chicken. So yummy and fresh. Still, I've been eating all afternoon and can't seem to satisfy this bottomless belly today.

Happy Memorial Day!

[MamaG]

Continue to be kind and cordial with H. Short, direct, answers. Your positivity comes from within. Comes from your life. Your positive life. That will reflect in everything you do and say. It will be noticed in your behaviour at party or in a short reply to a question. Because you are doing it for you. For you. Because of you. (Not some attempt at winning him back.)

Sincere. Genuine. Honest. Loyal. Strength of character. Now, that is an interesting person.

Be who you want to be, because you want to be. Be kind and compassionate. The chip will fall as they will. You only can control your side of the street in all this. (((Hugs)))

Catching up on bk's thread and see this comment...it makes me question me not talking/acknowledging him at the last few events. Am I taking the wrong approach? Is what I'm doing a push? Is this evidence that I'm not healed? healing? Can you help me grasp my behavior, my intentions, my intent?

[grok]

So many echos

from your sitch I see in me and mine.

I'm mostly detached and don't have any foreseeable reasons to reach out to H for anything. Over the last few events, I was less and less friendly with H. To reference Valeska, the dance has changed. It just happened. It was not deliberate. I just don't dance to this music anymore.

I simply have no interest in H's part-time family manners. I knew that once I learned about a PA, things would not be the same. I tried for the month of Feb/Mar to forgive and I'm not clear where I am with forgiveness. I do know that I have little more to give H. It was out of character for me - feeling like I was treating him poorly. Nope - I was holding boundaries to protect myself. Consequences. He no longer benefits from my warmth, care, love. It may hurt. Yet, I've accepted his decisions and am behaving accordingly.

I could not really do this until XW moved herself out. Even then ... it took snooping and seeing her committing to OM's attentions ... for me to be offended enough to realize my own dignity and respect. Little verbalized, but my behavior changed to - XW, you cannot choose that course of action and have access to ME. And then I went DARK. Business and young ones only. And only if it had to be addressed, not any other ramblings of hers. I accept her decision and now boundaries to protect ME.

D: This is why I don't want to tell dad anything. He then uses all the information to share at auntie's house as if he's been involved in my life. If we hadn't talked during my bday dinner, dad wouldn't know anything. He acted like we're a happy and involved family.
M: I nod and apologize.

XW, after taking the state required parenting course, "Oh, they showed us we are all still a family. Just split up in different houses and all."
I drank the STFU smoothie and thought, "That is such a load of self-justifying (self-gaslighting?) cr@p. I refuse to pretend all is fine, just different." And then after going dark, I have NOT joined in most any joint activity with her except for things like graduations or her parents taking us all out to dinner after such an event.

D: I'm not sharing anything with him anymore.

Good on letting her come to her own conclusions ... and how she wants to relate to H in the future.

Last year I sent a message to him and his family. Not this year. Decisions have consequences. I've accepted his decisions and am behaving accordingly.

Yes, they do. I have gone mostly dark to XW's family. Welcoming and friendly when they are here. Otherwise ... she is their daughter. I won't get in between or pretend family or pretend all is well.

Self-justifying...XW said that to me about OM. i.e. Our M wasn't where it should be so her relationship with OM is the consequence to me. At the same time, it became clear she hid the information I needed about her unhappiness for years... and eventually told it all to OM instead.

I'm not the same person. I don't care to show warmth to H who walked out and then welcome him showing up for the good moments only to abandon all of us later. No more breadcrumbs. S still soaks up dad as long as dad offers some laughs. GF sees otherwise.

No, we are not the same person after betrayal of this depth. Good and bad. Working on the keeping the good. Working on discarding the bad. Having sorted through the fear and confusion ... Who am I ... Now?

SIL is 'not getting involved' as she doesn't 'want to lose' her brother. Then carry on SIL....without me. She was so stunned. SIL didn't eat or drink a thing at the grad party - not like her. After 30+ years, I expected more from her, even if she's equally avoidant. I no longer rationalize being present with humans/family who can't show up for me.

I tried to talk to XW's parents...once. The reply I received was, "You two will work it out." If that is how they wanted to deal with their daughter's actions with OM? Then carry on MiL/FiL...without me.

I've done some reading. I've looked into HFC and Too Much.

Now this,... this,... is interesting. In explaining some of XW. XW told me she had been her mom's confidante since she was 14...including complaints about her father. When I met her, XW was badly co-dependent on her mom. It took me, in an amateur and untrained approach, two years to get her off this. How an HFC feels ... echos how XW told me she felt. i.e. - she does everything for all her friends but gets no support back, she dropped home and husband to work on everyone else's issues, to the point of burn out.

I feel cold when I don't provide warmth to all.

It IS disturbing to go against the desire to provide warmth. To feel like you go against the covenant you joined...until death. Forms of tough love are difficult for many of us.

Some of me feels proud for standing up for myself. Some of me feels sad for having to accept my new normal. Most of me feels drained and exhausted. Even confused. Still some disbelief knowing I may never trust again. I may never open myself up and be so vulnerable. This is not a path I would've signed up for. I would prefer to trust. to be open. to be giving. to be who I am. I may not have been perfect but I certainly liked me. It hurts so much to realize how different I am, yet don't necessarily see the value in going through this pain. Maybe I will someday. I've not given up on opening myself up to trust again.

Yep, and yep, and yep, .... I try to leave it at two sayings from here: I don't have to decide today ... and ... the future is unwritten.

The collateral damage is devastating and the hardest thing that I continue to process.

From the books on the impacts of divorce I've read... it spreads across three generations up, down, left, and right. The facile self gaslighting that I received excusing the damage is offensive to me.

Took some of yesterday and today for me to find my center. I'm back.

Yeah, encounters or oddities cause perturbations.... That is on me though. Not XW. Examining myself to see what inside me is the cause.

... 3 robin eggs this year. So precious.

...water the various tomato and pepper plants. LOL

... Sautéed some peppers and onions with some steak and chicken. So yummy and fresh.

The Top of the Morning - Mike Oldfield

Instrumental - serene and uplifting piano melody, the song blends progressive rock and new age elements, incorporating electronic textures and subtle synthesizers. It evokes a peaceful, reflective mood, often associated with the freshness of a new day.

Happy Memorial Day!

True Faith - New Order

I feel so extraordinary
Something's got a hold on me
I get this feeling I'm in motion
A sudden sense of liberty
....
I used to think that the day would never come
I'd see delight in the shade of the morning sun
My morning sun is the drug that brings me near
To the childhood I lost, replaced by fear
I used to think that the day would never come
That my life would depend on the morning sun

g

[Valeska19]

MG,
Changing the dance is difficult... for both parties.

Catching up on bk's thread and see this comment...it makes me question me not talking/acknowledging him at the last few events. Am I taking the wrong approach? Is what I'm doing a push? Is this evidence that I'm not healed? healing? Can you help me grasp my behavior, my intentions, my intent?

IMHO - this is you struggling with the new dance. It's perfect normal - btw - to have thoughts like this. You are changing a dynamic that has been in play for DECADES. It's unrealistic to think you won't question it at times.

As long as when you ask those questions... you pull way back. Instead of it being you and your husband - put in two strangers.

Should a person make small talk with the person who lies to her and takes advantage of her good will? My guess is not.

Should a person make small talk with a person who is emotionally hurting her children w/ his actions. My guess is not.

You are not rude. You just don't engage. You are not rude to a stranger - yet you don't provide your life's story either.

Again this is a consequence of your H's actions. He loses the closeness of his family. Allow him to feel that.

Surprise...H drove the hour. Alone. What?! Why would H attend nephew's graduation knowing that my entire family would be present? Just why? Why would H want to face everyone he hasn't engaged with for so long? And, I've not been speaking to him at engagements that we're both at (D's bday dinner, S's bday dinner, D's graduation). I know - MLC isn't logical. Still, it's a SMH moment.

If you look at it from the aspect of H trying to keep the same dance... then it makes perfect sense. He isn't used to MGs life being about MG. It's always been about him. If you gave the impression that you couldn't care if he was present - it doesn't surprise me that he is upping the ante by coming to the next one.

The reason they say to believe nothing they say and half of what they do is because people like to be comfortable. Your H is going to desperately try and keep the dance that has been so expect him to try anything. Even things that can be perceived as false hope.

It won't be until he truly believes this is the new dance - that he will make a decision. Most people don't change until they are forced to.

"MG - I made a mistake and I want to work on the marriage. And here is what I'm prepared to do"
Unless these are the words coming out of your H's mouth followed by the actions - assume everything is about him. Him trying to regulate his emotions. Him trying to hold on the parts of the relationship that feel good w/o doing the work of what is hard.

Until then - none of his stuff is your concern. Your focus continues to stay on YOU. On how you create a life where MG is the main character. How you learn to tolerate the guilt and uncomfortable feelings with putting yourself first.

One of the patterns I have seen in you is that when you put yourself first too much - your defense kicks in and you go back to worrying about your H's motives and actions. In times like this - put the spot light back on you.

The only hope of saving your marriage is by acting and believing that you are worth fighting for. Fake it until you make it as they say. Eventually it will become your truth and you won't be willing to make the same concessions anymore.

You are doing just fine. Really good updates on your part.

P.S. The rain on the east coast is just too much. I don't know why I bothered planting a garden at all this spring. Makes me miss my LA sunshine.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Catching up on bk's thread and see this comment...it makes me question me not talking/acknowledging him at the last few events. Am I taking the wrong approach? Is what I'm doing a push? Is this evidence that I'm not healed? healing? Can you help me grasp my behavior, my intentions, my intent?

I agree with grok and V.

I believe your approach to dealing with H is good. Business-like. Letting him lay in the bed he chose to make.

The fact that you question your actions, your intent; embrace willingness to look within for root reasons for your behaviours; illustrates the depth of your healing and how much you’ve progressed on your journey. Keep walking your path. You are doing great!

D

[MamaG]

And then I went DARK. Business and young ones only. And only if it had to be addressed

Dark here too. Really dark as we have no young ones anymore. And, I've been really dark for a year other than 3 or 4 slips where he comes for something or to provide something. Then there is lingering and attempts at old ways. The dance is easy to jump back into. Albeit, it's less easy with each passing attempt over the last couple years.

I have NOT joined in most any joint activity with her except for things like graduations or her parents taking us all out to dinner after such an event.

Our bdays are toward the EOY and I didn't even acknowledge H's big one this past year. So, bdays may be written off. For me, the hard part is the window I just pushed through. Many of our joint things run between March and May. And this will be forever. Forever is a long time. I'm healing and less impacted but it takes deliberate effort to work through those fleeting feelings.

I tried to talk to XW's parents...once. The reply I received was, "You two will work it out." If that is how they wanted to deal with their daughter's actions with OM? Then carry on MiL/FiL...without me.

I would tell myself that perhaps if roles were reversed that I wouldn't know what to say/what to do in SIL or FIL shoes. And for 2 years, this narrative kept me friendly. At some point, one has to believe that MLCer's behavior is off. I also heard SIL say to me, "I don't know what happens behind closed doors." That should've been a clue to me.

SIL's son is graduating this coming week and I responded months ago that I would attend. I am really having second thoughts. If I attend, it'll be to support D. If she prefers to not attend, I'll be skipping out too. While no one deserves this ripple effect, my heart really aches for the nieces/nephews. They're moving into adulthood but not quite adults. They are so confused. Thankfully, they have their own lives that keep them busy. I'm sure I'm not the center of attention in their minds. lol

I don't have to decide today ... and ... the future is unwritten.

Yes! My mantra as well. I believe doors will open for you. For me. For those who believe.

From the books on the impacts of divorce I've read... it spreads across three generations up, down, left, and right. The facile self gaslighting that I received excusing the damage is offensive to me.

I hold on to the possibility of reconciliation, but only by a few threads. The thread of our children. The thread of the vow I/we took and I took very seriously. And the thread of these statistics.

Perhaps, I can add the thread of I know my H is down in there somewhere and may actually steel me off my feet again....should this actually be mental illness. I'm not hold too tight to this one anymore.

Other than these fragile threads, I would've walked away already. It'll hurt either way....and have been hurting. Forgiving, trusting, mending, building are big mountains to climb. The future is unwritten. I'm living for today.

As long as when you ask those questions... you pull way back. Instead of it being you and your husband - put in two strangers.

Enlightening. So true and obvious in the sitch of two strangers. I'm pondering.

Again this is a consequence of your H's actions. He loses the closeness of his family. Allow him to feel that.

If you gave the impression that you couldn't care if he was present - it doesn't surprise me that he is upping the ante by coming to the next one.

And this is why I thought it was unlikely that H would show. I hadn't been talking with him. H has noticed the shift. Clearly I didn't go silent to attract him.

OK, if my unintended 180 was all that was considered, sure, I can believe that H is still trying to dance the old way. It's more than that though. Bigger than dancing. H hasn't faced my family in 2 years. H had no idea how they'd respond to him and still H came out of his hiding, drove an hour and was faced my peeps. Ego? Arrogance? or...testing the waters of reintegrating?

We share a massage therapists who has been feeling bad for H because he's 'had to miss his monthly massage appts for 6 the last months'. I just nod and say nothing - STFU smoothies. She mentioned last month that it was nice to see he was able to come. Wonder what an hour of no escape measures may have felt like to him. Pondering...reintegrating? dipping the toe at what the effort to return to his cushy life would be like? hmmm

Regardless of the reason for returning to massages and for attending graduation, I'm not welcoming him without words like the ones you shared. "MG you are a saint and I am very sorry and here are the various mountains I'm willing to climb to reconnect and, and, and." At which point I'll respond, "that's a good start."

How you learn to tolerate the guilt and uncomfortable feelings with putting yourself first.

This should be easy, yet so hard. I'm working on it. And, I'm working on not softening in his presence. I'm a sucker for that man.

Here's an example of putting myself first - I wouldn't have done this last year.
S is moving this weekend to a new place - moving in with GF. S talked about taking his bedroom furniture and needing help from H. I calmly informed him that H is not welcome in my home. S is welcome to invite him to help but he will remain in the driveway.

Some days later...

S informed me that his friend will be coming to the house this weekend to help with the move. (S travels for work with this friend but I haven't met him.) My response, 'Ooh, can't wait to meet friend. Let's plan for dinner at your favorite restaurant while you're here. My treat.'

Until now, hadn't even considered how H will feel that he wasn't involved at all. Those consequences...

P.S. The rain on the east coast is just too much. I don't know why I bothered planting a garden at all this spring. Makes me miss my LA sunshine.

You're not kidding. Sounds like you're living in close proximity. We may be getting a few days of a dry spell....after today....and some warmer days.

Somehow my veggies are holding up. I have a couple cherry tomatoes coming in already. Peppers are thinking about budding. Getting excited.

I grow a variety of tomatoes and peppers and then mince them with a variety of herbs, onions & garlic for winter cooking. The minced mix freezes well (in portions) and makes for a quick meal base through the winter. Mom's garden usually provides the herbs among other things that she loves to share - keeps her busy & moving all summer.

I make batches of dog treats every 6 weeks or so - they hold up well in the freezer. Seeing as the dogs are almost out, I went out last night to pick up liver, flax seed, chia seeds, pumpkin, oats, turmeric, blueberries and so on. Will make these today since S and friend are coming tomorrow for furniture. And, I'll be visiting S's new place on Monday.

Grok, it is no surprise that as LBSes, you and I share similar experiences/thoughts/feelings and dare I say fears from time to time. We also share similar timelines. Still, interesting and stunning to hear the similarities. H was fast tracking his divorce until he learned about my cancer diagnosis. H stopped pushing mediation immediately. I firmly believe that if it weren't for learning that I had breast cancer just weeks after BD, H would've divorced me months into crisis. At the time, I was relieved that H halted divorce. Today, I'm not sure.

It's apparent that you are surviving/thriving with your greatest treasures by your side, as I am. We lead busy and productive lives. Better things are ahead. I trust.

DnJ, thanks for confirming that H laying in his own bed is appropriate. My silence is good. It feels comfortable based on H's behavior.

Enjoy the weekend!

[grok]

I make batches of dog treats every 6 weeks or so - they hold up well in the freezer. Seeing as the dogs are almost out, I went out last night to pick up liver, flax seed, chia seeds, pumpkin, oats, turmeric, blueberries and so on.

I made myself healthy breakfast the other day of - - blueberries, pumpkin seeds, ground flax, walnuts, oats, and sometimes a spoonful of turmeric with low sugar yogurt.

Now I feel like a dog... LOL! I'll have to examine making those treats for our dogs.

It's apparent that you are surviving/thriving with your greatest treasures by your side, as I am. We lead busy and productive lives. Better things are ahead. I trust.

True. And one of the shocking things to me is the simultaneous void, crushing weight, of loss. The incongruent simultaneity. Both exist at the same time in seeming mutually exclusive existence.

g

[MamaG]

Grok, my dogs think you're missing out on the liver!

I joke with my mom (and myself) that I make hearty treats for the boys and really should try them out. To date, mom is not interested. (me neither!)

And one of the shocking things to me is the simultaneous void, crushing weight, of loss. The incongruent simultaneity. Both exist at the same time in seeming mutually exclusive existence.

Quite profound and a true representation of me, often! I know that I'm blessed with children, family, pets, home, friends, work, health. Still, the weight of sadness (feelings) can and does exist in the background and from time to time, on the forefront.

Knowledge versus feelings. Or is it knowledge AND feelings? They do coexist. Knowing to let knowledge lead. Feeling the weight and getting sucked back in...until knowledge brings me back. Deliberate thoughts to bring me back in those weaker moments.

[MamaG]

So, how do I apply...I'm accepting your decisions and behaving accordingly...in this situation?

Nephew dropped off the ticket to his graduation. I accept the ticket and come back inside for a bit to eat. A couple hours later, it dawns on me.

AP's son is also a member of the graduating class and will be at graduation on Thursday. How did I totally forget this critical detail? I'm now not sure that I can attend. What would I do if I crossed paths with her? Her mom?

I suspect H and AP won't be sitting together as their relationship is still a secret. But even that is a possible interaction that I'll encounter.

I'm in a bind. Do I attend graduation?

If I don't, my D will be so uncomfortable going alone.

What is the recommendation? Do I attend? If I do attend, what do I do when I run into her? Cross paths with her?

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

“I'm accepting your decisions and behaving accordingly.”

How to apply.

Break it into components.

So, “I'm accepting your decisions”. Do that. Not try. Do. Accept H’s decisions. Well, more accept his right to choose to make decisions. You need not condone or agree with said decisions, just his right to do so.

Then the second part: “behaving accordingly”. Do, behave as you would. Or would’ve, if that helps. Meaning, if when you accept H’s right to choose, you let go of some oddly binding threads. It’s: H is going to do what he is going to do, YOU do what you should do. You control you. Letting go, removes H’s (and AP’s) power over you. Btw, it’s power over you that you are allowing. You are reinforcing it. Let go.

AP's son is also a member of the graduating class and will be at graduation on Thursday. How did I totally forget this critical detail? I'm now not sure that I can attend.

Big Red Stop Sign!

What do you mean, not sure you can attend. Stop giving them power over you!

You choose your path. You decide your path. Not them!

Your life, your direction is not to be based upon their actions.

What would I do if I crossed paths with her? Her mom?

I suspect H and AP won't be sitting together as their relationship is still a secret. But even that is a possible interaction that I'll encounter.

I'm in a bind. Do I attend graduation?

If I don't, my D will be so uncomfortable going alone.

What is the recommendation? Do I attend? If I do attend, what do I do when I run into her? Cross paths with her?

Attend your nephew’s graduation. Nephew dropped off a ticket, and asked you, wants you, to be there. So go.

If you cross paths with AP’s son, congratulate him by name for his hard work and graduating.

If you cross paths with AP. Be cordial. Short conversation, if it is even becomes necessary. Treat her like anyone else. Everyone else. She is nothing special. Meaning, graduation is not the forum for any discussion or morality, or cheating, or all that. Stick to the high road!

It’s nephew’s graduation. He is the star of this. Your reason for even being there. Stick to that. Make the day about him. Not H, AP, or any of their shenanigans.

Behave accordingly. What would you do, if all the BS H has done, didn’t happen? Just regarding this specific graduation ceremony of nephew. You’d go. You’d behave in a certain manner. Speak to people. Congratulate people. Etc. So, do that.

I’ve had graduations, music recitals, socials, and now weddings. XW and OM are involved. In my face. Yes, at the beginning it was difficult. It hurt. Now, weddings and the receptions are a blast. I dance with everyone. Talk to everyone. While XW and OM skulk around.

Truth will out. You need not force it. Everything comes out eventually. Live and love your life - accordingly. Responsibility. Properly. With accountability. Respectfully (to self and others). Genuinely. Sincerely.

Live those tenets.

So, with those convictions in mind:

Do I attend? If I do attend, what do I do when I run into her? Cross paths with her?

It’s not about her. Remember who this day is for.

D

[DnJ]

Hello MG (and grok )

And one of the shocking things to me is the simultaneous void, crushing weight, of loss. The incongruent simultaneity. Both exist at the same time in seeming mutually exclusive existence.

Quite profound and a true representation of me, often! I know that I'm blessed with children, family, pets, home, friends, work, health. Still, the weight of sadness (feelings) can and does exist in the background and from time to time, on the forefront.

It’s the journey through the stage of depression.

Depression follows bargaining. Once bargaining - the last ditch effort to try to feel the old normal - has finally failed one enters depression. This stage is brooding, feeling sad, lost, dark, empty, and such. There is a void. A loss of wanting. A missing of fulfillment, or reasons for.

It’s perfectly normal. It’s grief.

And temporary.

Still, one has to walk through it. Walk their path. There are no shortcuts. Grief will be over, acceptance will come, when it does. And not one second earlier.

Most of one’s “figuring it out” occurs subconsciously. Ah, the subconscious. The true workhouse and seat/power of one’s self. Our conscious self is that tip of iceberg sticking out. Our subconscious the huge bulk beneath the waves. The ocean’s surface the boundary between conscious and subconscious.

The power of one’s subconscious is truly amazing when realized.

The subconscious mind is incredible. Consider what you are doing right now. Reading my words. Black scrawls against a white background your subconscious identifies as letters. It stitches those together into words. Further appending the words to sentences, then paragraphs, and so on.

Each step along the way, your mind assigns meaning to those words, sentences, paragraphs. Furthering the meaning and intent of the author as you read more and more. All in real time!

Several paragraphs in and a conclusion or new point instantaneously changes your entire interpretation. Jokes are an excellent example of that.

A real life conversation, face to face, is even more astonishing from a computational perspective. Again, in real time, we listen, consider, formulate, respond, almost immediately to the other person’s words. Words and meaning that literally you had no idea of what they would say. Yet, one’s subconscious mind is such a powerhouse/workhorse of computation it is all happens seamlessly.

The conscious mind pales in comparison. Consider this experience. Actually, please do this experiment. And really focus on it. Full conscious effort:

Sit like you’re driving. (For simplification I will consider left side driving. In truth it matters not, just saves me writing left and right differently.)

So, sit like you’re driving. Close your eyes. Imagine the road before you. Two driving lanes in each direction with a boulevard of green grass between them.

You are in the leftmost lane. There is no traffic. Just you.

I want you to change lanes from the left one to the right one. Really focus on the steering. Like I said, no traffic. No need for signalling, or shoulder checking, or checking the mirrors, etc. I just want you to pay attention to your imagined steering wheel and where the car goes.

So, sitting with hands at 9 and 3. Eyes closed. Count down 3, 2, 1. Make a lane change.

Reset yourself and do it a few more times to get the feel.

Now open your eyes and do it again. Paid attention to what your hands doing. (If I was there, I’d could just tell when your eye we’re closed.)

So, where did your hands go? A simple lane change to the right. You likely steered to the right. Duh. Did you anyone steer to the left?

Most likely something like hands from 9 and 3, to 12 and 6, and back to 9 and 3.

Congratulations. You drove over the curb, across the sidewalk, and crashed into a house!

A lane change requires steering the car back to straight. There is a steering input of equal amplitude and duration in the opposite direction to return the car to straight in the new lane. 9 and 3, to 12 and 6, then 180 degrees left to 6 and 12, and then back to 9 and 3.

Do the imaginary lane change again. Eyes open. Even with this new information you likely still won’t consciously steer like that. It feels wrong when you pay attention.

Of course we obviously do steer left, as we do successful lane changes all the time. If you remember, watch yourself next time you do a lane change. It’s wild to see! You do it, yet your conscious mind thinks it’s wrong. I’ve done this experiment with people for over thirty years now, and I do not consciously steer properly. lol. And I know the answer. Yet it is wrong to me.

So why?

The true powerhouse is our subconscious. It knows and it does.

The conscious mind is for new stuff. It programs our subconscious.

In all the times I’ve performed this experiment with people, the only people to ever get it right, that it felt right to - sixteen year olds that were learning to drive. They had all the steps in their conscious mind. After all, they were learning how to drive. Of course, as inexperienced drivers their skills were poor. Like anything, we learn by rout. By repetition.

Expertise comes with programming one’s subconscious with proper good methods. Unfortunately, most folks program themselves with poor methods. No turn signal, not staying in their lane, and so on. If one’s subconscious workhorse were programmed correctly the “bad habits” are not even performed.

You see, the conscious mind just sets our direction. Makes a decision. In this case a lane change. It starts the action and then turns over the completion of that action to our subconscious. That’s why, when you learn something right the first time is it so much easier. No habit to break.

This is applicable to all facets of life. Especially here and now.

The water’s surface between tip and bulk of iceberg, that boundary between conscious and subconscious: communication is easiest when the water is calm. When the surface is frothy and turbulent, our conscious mind cannot peer inward, nor hear what our deep self is saying.

When one is calm and at peace, one can see a little into that subconscious realm. Our light can illuminate some of what is a few feet below the surface. Likewise our subconscious can be more easily heard.

When learning a new skill, frustration impedes. It’s why we take breaks. Why classes are only so long. We are bit by bit programming, learning, to steer to the left when actually shifting to the right. Even though we won’t, and don’t realize it.

Focus on self, let go, gal, etc. Purposeful conscious controlled actions to alter your programmed default responses.

Knowledge versus feelings. Or is it knowledge AND feelings? They do coexist. Knowing to let knowledge lead. Feeling the weight and getting sucked back in...until knowledge brings me back. Deliberate thoughts to bring me back in those weaker moments.

It’s knowledge and feelings and beliefs and physical action. All four are intertwined.

However, beliefs. Convictions. Values. This is the big one. Those tenets and principles of your life. We are thrown into the fray. A journey and situation we didn’t ask for. Everything gets mixed up. Our beliefs get turned upset down as the one we trust(ed) the most betrays us.

Takes time for us to right ourselves. To find our direction. To (re)program our subconscious. Which requires first controlling our conscious actions and thoughts. Which influence our feelings. Which all influence/alter our convictions. Which influences our thoughts and consciousness.

Strengthen that which serves. Craft that which you aspire to. Discard/alter that which does not, or no longer, serves.

Deep stuff. Especially while within depression. Yet, that is the crux of depression, IMHO. Finding those answers. Reprogramming yourself.

Counterintuitively, the best and fastest way, is to not focus on it. Recall the lane change. You have a lifetime of experiences, and tenets that have served you. Yes, some tweaking is likely. However, you have a good soul. It’s just hurt. Trust yourself.

Do focus your conscious mind on other stuff. Allow your subconscious to churn away. Believe me, it churns best when we don’t bother it. lol. You’ve done lots of inner work already. This is why. This is the time when all that inner work, beliefs, values, and so on, gets reconciled and accepted. Have faith.

Do utilize your conscious mind, as it’s meant to. Decide. Start the action. Then let your workhorse takeover.

D

[MamaG]

Hi and happy Sunday,

Attend your nephew’s graduation. Nephew dropped off a ticket, and asked you, wants you, to be there. So go.

Yes, this is all true. Makes sense. I decide that I'll go.

D and I drove up. On our ride, SIL sent us both a text of where there were seats for us. We walked in and I was a bit uncomfortable. Perhaps more uncomfortable than I was willing to admit.

Behave accordingly. What would you do, if all the BS H has done, didn’t happen? Just regarding this specific graduation ceremony of nephew. You’d go. You’d behave in a certain manner. Speak to people. Congratulate people. Etc. So, do that.

As we approached the row, SIL has her arms out wide for an embrace. Ok, I'll respond to that. I'll dance with SIL differently than I did at D's graduation. It wasn't the plan but it is what I would've done had H not gotten into his shenanigans. Walked by nephew's GF and niece - embraced them both with a hello. Walked by H with no greeting as I hear him trying to still dance to the old music. H says, "hello" with a hope in his tone. I couldn't even look at him never mind muster a greeting. I kept inching past him and to my seat. I know the family in the row in front of us was all listening and watching. None of them have seen us together since last year.

D sat between H and I. She was uncomfortable but her behavior was not obvious to all. H's legs shook and he needed 2 tobacco chews through the 90 minutes. Never needed any before. Other than the leg shaking, outwardly, H behaved like life is grand. Faking it till he makes it.

Well, if I'm being honest, I faked it till I made it. I was uncomfortable in my own skin and remained visibly controlled. Well, this is graduation #3 that both of us attending with inspirational speeches we can't avoid. They all focus on being authentic, living without fear, face challenges, relationships are what matter most when you look back, don't hide from your feelings, and on and on. Other than laughing with D and a couple family members in front of me, I remained quiet and reserved.

Minutes into sitting:
H: D do you want to get something to eat with me?
D: No thank you. I ate before I came.

H did all he could to ignore D for the rest of the 90 minutes and engaged with niece's BF, as BF was on the other side of H. I know H was listening to speeches and everything going on around him. Hypervigilant. H often paused and I could see his mask come off when I looked in D's direction in conversation (I could see H on the other side of D when I looked her way). H even got excited that I may have been looking at him once and turned to look at me. NOPE.

Not having H in my life is hard. Not engaging with H on a part-time basis has become easier. It still requires deliberate thought and decisioning.

We meet up for pictures outside and await the nephew. In that 10 minutes, I greeted many (all are form our small town) and enjoyed some conversations. H pushed further and further back from the flow of traffic. Not sure why but he wasn't around me and no one asked for him.

Family of 5 in front of us took a pic with graduate, SIL/BIL took pic with graduate, I took pic with graduate, D took pic with graduate and H took pic with graduate. We needed 3 for our family. I felt it. Sister texts to share photos on social media. Yup, 3 pictures posted for our family. SMH - this isn't how I'd want to write this chapter.

D and I head out and run into AP's XH. He's super happy to see us. My face had already fallen in relief as I was bolting to the car. Stop in my tracks to greet him and off I go. Was AP in his circle awaiting their son?? Not sure. Doesn't matter. I kept walking and get on the road.

Truth will out. You need not force it. Everything comes out eventually. Live and love your life - accordingly. Responsibility. Properly. With accountability. Respectfully (to self and others). Genuinely. Sincerely.

Isn't that the truth!?!

D: Why do you hate dad so much?
M: I'm not sure where that comes from. I don't hate dad at all.
D: Mom! Something has changed and it's obvious that you hate him.
M: Again, D. I don't hate dad and I'd like to believe that you don't either.
D: What happened? What's changed?
M: I kept driving. STFU smoothie
D: I need you to tell me. You don't talk to him at all anymore.
M: Tears rolling down my face. STFU smoothie
D: Please don't cry. You're driving. I just need you to tell me. Did he cross the boundary?
M: I nod in affirmation as tears pour out. I let out an exhale and grunt as I release pain.
D: I knew it. This is why brother and I had a bad week last week. We've suspected. We knew something was up. Please don't cry.
M: STFU smoothie
D: This is why dad was so depressed and suicidal. It was guilt. Wasn't it?
M: I'm sorry D. I didn't want you to know, but seeing as you asked, I won't lie to you.
D: How do you know? When did you find out.
M: It fell in my lap and I sent him the evidence a couple months back.
D: What did he say? Have you talked?
M: Nope. He ghosted me at which point, I got some bills in order as well as the car ownership aligned.
D: Ahh. That's why you did it. You'd known that long? UGH
M: STFU smoothie
D: You need to tell brother. He's disappointed that you don't tell him things. Or I can tell him if you'd rather.
M: This isn't info for you to share with your brother. I'll get around to telling him.
D: We need to tell him soon. Brother and I have plans to do X on Tuesday.
M: I don't know if I'll tell him before Tuesday.
D: How sure are you? If you're 100% sure, I'm done with dad. I'll cut him right out.
M: Then, I'm 99% sure, not 100%.
D: Mom, I'm so angry with him for what he's taken from me. What he's done to me. And now what he's doing to you and our family.
M: I'm sorry D. STFU smoothie
D: Mom, you are so pretty. So much prettier than her, both inside and out. What kind of person does this to a family? Such an ugly person.
M: Thank you, D. I appreciate your comments.
D: We're getting you on a dating site. That's it.

We both laugh as I drop her off to her car. She then throws in.
D: Don't worry about telling brother. He's had enough of dad too.
M: What do you mean? You know he doesn't share with me.
D: He's called and texted dad many times over the last couple months and dad doesn't respond.
M: Wow, I didn't know.
D: Ya, brother's last text to dad wasn't a good one.
D: Brother texted, "Dad do I have the wrong number? I've been reaching out but am not hearing back from you."
M: I'm sorry D. I'll talk to S.

I finish my ride home with what seemed like never ending tears. I feel a surge of emotions. Life felt bittersweet in that 20 minutes - mostly bitter. Sad. Angry. Relieved. Validated. Disheartened. Oh those feelings! Can't seem to get away from them. It's been a weekend.

D had a destination wedding to go to so I haven't talked with her. I called S to chat yesterday and he was driving with GF. Nope, not today. S should be in person. If not in person, S should definitely not be driving. I'll muster up some words to tell S in the next week.

Not sure I can make it to nephew's graduation party next weekend. I think I've taken all I can as this year's Mar-May was extended into June by graduations.

If you've been praying for me. This isn't the time to stop. Please and thank you. MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I’m glad you decided to attend Nephew’s graduation. At the moment, he is still family. And there are less regrets this way.

I was uncomfortable in my own skin and remained visibly controlled. Well, this is graduation #3 that both of us attending with inspirational speeches we can't avoid. They all focus on being authentic, living without fear, face challenges, relationships are what matter most when you look back, don't hide from your feelings, and on and on. Other than laughing with D and a couple family members in front of me, I remained quiet and reserved.

I hear you. I was uncomfortable for a while as well.

I’ve had five graduations now, and in a week will be the second wedding. The speeches don’t bother me anymore; for a I live them.

I didn’t choose this path, XW did. However, I can, and I did, choose how I responded to it.

Truth will out. You need not force it. Everything comes out eventually. Live and love your life - accordingly. Responsibility. Properly. With accountability. Respectfully (to self and others). Genuinely. Sincerely.

Isn't that the truth!?!

As father of the groom I’ve been asked to make one of those speeches. It’s also expected for the parents to say a few words. XW has opted out, both times. Sincerity. How do you give a few words at a wedding regarding love, honour, respect, commitment, etc. when you are living the opposite.

Anyhow, I’ve accepted. And like last wedding, I’ll go it solo. The speech, and attending. lol. I’m pretty comfortable in my skin.

D: You need to tell brother. He's disappointed that you don't tell him things.

Pay attention. The door has been opened. Adult kids are looking for the truth.

D: Mom, I'm so angry with him for what he's taken from me. What he's done to me. And now what he's doing to you and our family.

You don’t feed this fire. You also don’t try to extinguish it. It’s not your job to facilitate or repair the relationship between Dad and kid; it’s your job not to destroy it (by your hand).

Acknowledge D’s feelings, her anger, and such. And help her walk her path, her journey. How she responds to a situation she didn’t choose.

D: Don't worry about telling brother. He's had enough of dad too.
M: What do you mean? You know he doesn't share with me.
D: He's called and texted dad many times over the last couple months and dad doesn't respond.
M: Wow, I didn't know.
D: Ya, brother's last text to dad wasn't a good one.
D: Brother texted, "Dad do I have the wrong number? I've been reaching out but am not hearing back from you."
M: I'm sorry D. I'll talk to S.

MLCer’s become terrible parents. They ghost their own kids. Especially those who hold them accountable.

We LBS are the strong stable parent. Reach out to son.

Now, at times, your kids are going to lash out at you. Lash out undeservingly even. You see they cannot risk loosing Dad yet, so they vent at the strong stable parent.

That be said, I suspect daughter is about ready, or really close to being able to blast/talk/say her piece to Dad and let the chips fall where they will. Son will follow suit shortly.

Don’t fret. It’s perfectly healthy and healing for them.

I finish my ride home with what seemed like never ending tears. I feel a surge of emotions. Life felt bittersweet in that 20 minutes - mostly bitter. Sad. Angry. Relieved. Validated. Disheartened. Oh those feelings! Can't seem to get away from them. It's been a weekend.

(((Hugs)))

I suspect those feelings have now subsided. Mostly.

I too have moments like that. Still. After eight years. Though, it passes rather quickly. Acceptance doesn’t erase your past or feelings; you just don’t fight them. In acceptance, I find I’m almost never angry about the situation. Sometimes, sad, melancholy, nostalgic. Vastly, living my life. Fulfilled. Meaningful. Happy. Hopeful.

It’s fine to have such feelings as you experienced. Calm the waters. Let your subconscious churn away, while you do some yard work. Or go for a walk. Or bbq a steak. Oh yes, bbq a steak. Yum. With baked potatoes. Mushrooms. Smoothed in butter. OMG! (I shouldn’t post when I’m hungry. lol)

Have a great day MG.

D



Let’s see, mmmm, yes that will do fine. <Me: Thawing a steak for dinner.>

[MamaG]

We LBS are the strong stable parent. Reach out to son.

S and I talked - he now knows. Hard convo but I made it happen before S and D had plans. They've been talking. Both are processing. Processing without me. I often would talk with each of them 4 or 5 times a week. Haven't heard from them much. I'm giving space.

Nephew's graduation party was last Saturday at SIL's house. I wasn't sure if I'd attend. S came in to attend and spent the night since the commute is long and the following day was Father's Day. Shortly after S pulled in, D pulls in with BF. I was surprised to see her as I hadn't heard from her. The 3 of them are planning to go. I asked if I could join them.

D: Go get dressed. We'll go for an hour and leave.
M: Sounds good. Give me a minute so I can prepare a greeting card and gift.

The 3 of them played basketball in the driveway like old times while I got ready. My heart was singing.

We head over. Walking up the driveway, we are greeted by SIL who has some confusion on her face. She didn't expect me to show is all I could think. I notice teenagers and H who are playing yard games (no greeting/acknowledgement in either direction) on our left, as we make our way over to the adults who are sitting at long stretches of tables. Most had eaten. We greet several friends and hug/kiss uncle 1, uncle 2, BIL, FIL and GF.

Grabbing our plates, we sit at a table where there are 4 seats - happens to be a ways from H's family. We eat, laugh and enjoy each other. Over comes SIL who is her usual self - negative spewing, complaining that she can't wait for the party to be over, it's so cold and on and on. [I don't miss this.]

Several family friends stopped over to say hello and catch up. SIL's best friend was one of them. She asked how I was doing with a concerned demeanor. In response, I tilted my head, curled my eyebrows and proudly let her know, "We're doing great. Things are great." Caught off guard, she adjusted and we talked about other things and comfort - for her - returned. Not sure what SIL is feeding her but that may have changed the narrative.

There were lots of looks our way. I was comfortable unlike at the commencement, but could certainly feel the eyes. Many of sorrow, concern, confusion. The 4 of us, unrehearsed just simply behaved as we always had and laughed often. Genuine enjoyment. My heart was so full in that moment. D kept saying, "Why does dad keep looking over here?" I told her I didn't know.

We hadn't even finished our last bites when uncle 3 and aunt came and sat with us. We talked about the family wedding later this year and they told me that they were glad that I decided to go. SIL said in return, "I don't know why she has to go all the way over there to get married. We're not going." I could see D drinking STFU smoothies (Yes, I've introduced both kids to these nutritious treats.)

A few minutes later, the rest of the family at the other table flocked over to us one by one and sat with us at our table - all uncles, aunts, FIL, etc. We were always the center gatherings. Full of life and excitement. Now I see it.

Meanwhile, H kept looking over and listening to our laughs and interactions. Genuine. Joyous. Comfortable. A family life he once was a part of. Here we are on his turf and they're all moving towards us. I was glowing. Family and friends are even more confused now. They're wondering how actions (our engagement) and words (SIL and H) aren't matching up.

We left after an hour and the kids were happy they went and that dad stayed clear. And mostly, that H didn't approach us.

It's confusing. I'm reminded that Divorce Busting is counterintuitive. At the party, I was comfortable with H doing what he wanted. I was doing what I wanted. I didn't have an urge to bring him in or otherwise. Choices. Actions. Consequences. Afterwards, as I reflect, I felt like I was snubbing him. Rude. I question if I should've been the bigger person and waived from afar as I walked up the driveway? Isn't ignoring toxic? Avoiding isn't healthy. Was I avoiding? Accepting his wishes and behaving accordingly?

I ask because being a better human is in my cards. His return isn't mine to control. Kids are watching. Kids followed and didn't engage either.

An hour later, we picked ourselves up and walked out together in laughter and with a skip in our step. Walked down the driveway, past H and teenagers and into the car....

S and I booked flights for the wedding that night. D got a big-girl job now that she graduated and is waiting to hear if she can attend the wedding with us. It's a big trip and quite a bit to book. H's family wants me to go. I want to go. Kids want to go. We're going.

The next day was Father's Day. No messages, no breakfast, no Happy Father's Day to H. None of us reached out. I'm sure he felt it. Maybe he'll wake up some day and realize all he's left behind. Maybe not.

Father's day was beautiful. We celebrated my dad in our typical warm style. Surrounded by food and family. Some games and lots of love.

As for me, I've done more reflecting on how I contributed to the fallout of my marriage. This has helped me. I enabled his descent. I'm not condoning his coping techniques nor anything he's made decisions to do. Still, I'm able to see that doing more isn't the answer. Carrying his weight isn't the answer. Excusing what he lacks isn't the answer. Fixing everything is control and not helpful. Still learning. Still healing. Still hurting. Beginning to thrive.

Power washed the back patio for a few hours. Took some time to start up the washer, but with some cuts, bruises, words, I made it happen. Have another couple hours ahead of me today for the front walk before I head over to niece's dance recital.

Cancer check-up on Monday. D is coming along with me and has plans for ride. Yesterday, D listed out the calls she needs to make. Decisions to ponder. Timing to consider. She's a bit overwhelmed with needing to move out of college apartment in the next week and all she needs to do to find housing near the new job. She'll be home for a month or so and then will move towards S, being only 10 minutes down the road from him. It comforts me that they'll have each other. They want to be together. D said to me, "Mom, just move near us. Why not? You love the ocean so it could work." While it sounds appealing, my career is here and I certainly know that they may move again in a blink of an eye. I need stability.

Much like when they were born, parenting adult children doesn't come with a manual. I'm doing what I can to be the stable parent. Provide space as they think through their life's changes. Not fixing as I know that's not what they need. Listening. Offering advice when requested. Loving them always.

[Valeska19]

MG,
Overall I think this was a very positive experience. What I love the most was that you weren't even trying to DB. You were present in the moment with you and your kids... and that's when life gets beautiful.

How people feel about us... is really none of our business. However they look at you, whatever they think of you... let them. Your focus is where it should be. Sharing memories with people you love and that love you.

It's confusing. I'm reminded that Divorce Busting is counterintuitive. At the party, I was comfortable with H doing what he wanted. I was doing what I wanted. I didn't have an urge to bring him in or otherwise. Choices. Actions. Consequences. Afterwards, as I reflect, I felt like I was snubbing him. Rude. I question if I should've been the bigger person and waived from a afar as I walked up the driveway? Isn't ignoring toxic? Avoiding isn't healthy. Was I avoiding? Accepting his wishes and behaving accordingly?

I ask because being a better human is in my cards. His return isn't mine to control. Kids are watching. Kids followed and didn't engage either. .

Detachment is hard ain't it?

Here you are about to pick up the rope here in your post

.... AND YET.... you check yourself.. and decide not to.

As for me, I've done more reflecting on how I contributed to the fallout of my marriage. This has helped me. I enabled him descent. I'm not condoning his coping techniques nor anything he's made decisions to do. Still, I'm able to see that doing more isn't the answer. Carrying his weight isn't the answer. Excusing what he lacks isn't the answer. Fixing everything is control and not helpful. Still learning. Still healing. Still hurting. Beginning to thrive.

Really well done. THIS ^^^^ is the work. It's not about ignoring our feelings or our love for our SO. It's knowing the part we played in the story our marriage. It's about re-discovering the part we need to play in our own personal story.

This is a conversation and debate you will have many times with yourself. It's part of the healing process. You are exactly where you need to be.

[bkerchik]

I have to remember this one!

STFU smoothie

I can never tell whether I’m snubbing or ignoring or just doing my thing. I feel like I need to be the better person sometimes. Treat H like I’d like to be treated. Right now I just try to keep things short and sweet.

[MamaG]

I am grateful for insight from my virtual friends on this site. Somehow you validate me, remind me of what's important and give direction. And here I am for more.

Yesterday, H text the kids - first outreach from him since Pii day in March. H sent a very cold and unemotional text to inform the kids that his father (my FIL) was in the hospital because he had a stroke. While the kids didn't respond to him via text, they jumped in the car and straight to the hospital they went. I then get a call from them.

Kids: Mom, dad is here. He didn't visit papa last time at the hospital so we were hoping he wouldn't be here. His truck is here. What do we do?
M: Ok. So now you know. Have you thought about what you'll do? say?
Kids: We've been thinking about that for the last couple hours but we didn't think he'd be here.

We ran through some options and then I suggested they sit in the car for a few minutes until they knew what would make them comfortable.

M: You don't have to greet him. You can greet him. You can nod. Or you can just be there for papa. Hold papa's hand. Comfort papa. Love on him. That's why you're there - for papa.
Kids: Ya, we'll sit and think it through before going in.

Three hours later, with so much relief, they called on their way out.

Kids: You're never going to believe what dad's new thing is now.
M: What do you mean?
Kids: Tattoos, piercings, Duck Dynasty...and guess what now?
M: He's polishing his toe nails. In black polish!
Kids: Ok. Sounds like he's still looking for himself. Hope he enjoyed his first pedicure.

We laughed. Then they told me that they didn't talk to dad nor make any eye contact with him. They sounded proud. I just uttered, "OK, sounds like you had a nice visit with papa though." They confirmed.

Kids: Mom, dad is so selfish. He sat in a chair the whole time while we stood for hours. He never asked anything about us. He just doesn't have any interest in us at all.
M: You know dad is in crisis. He's only thinking of himself right now. Dad loves you both very much but he doesn't know how to get through the shame and guilt.
D: He doesn't even know I moved. He learned today though.
M: He knew you moved. He can track your phone and I'm pretty sure he does. Men in crisis are very curious about their lives.
D: I guess. Well, he learned a bit more about us and he didn't seem to care that he's missing out.


What else can I say to them? Should I give advice? I don't know what to ever say or not say. They continue to struggle. They're hurting so much.

________________________________

Over the last month, my kids have been processing the news. D was home more than usual with all the moving in and out so we were able to connect more. We periodically talked about H, as we always had. She isn't at peace but has accepted that dad is absent and is acting cowardly. She is also the one who has done more sharing of her feelings over the last 2 years. S is struggling and I find out tonight from D just how much he's struggling. Thankfully, he is open enough to talk with his sister. Love that for them.

S wants to talk to H. He wants to hear it from his dad. He wants confirmation that he strayed. D told S that dad will lie and won't confess. Wise. S agreed and is still feeling the need to talk to dad.

S also told D that he's not talking to me as much because I remind him of dad and he doesn't want to think about dad. Hmmm. Certainly I had noticed that S calls fewer times. S told her, I know I'm being avoidant and I don't want to be. I know it's unhealthy, but it's hard to talk with mom now.

Ok - this is good. S has awareness. Admitting to the problem is step 1.

What are your suggestions? S may never tell me he's struggling. What can I do? I can't let him know that D told me. Yet, I want to help him open up. You know I've been struggling here and I'm still here. I know I can't make S speak. Do I apply the same DB skills? Give space? Let him come to me? Listen when/if he does.

And, any idea why he's struggling to talk to me?

_______________________________________


D shares her own feelings and then asks to change the subject. Doesn't want to talk about it for long. Her approach is to say it out loud and drop it. I'm thinking I need to be a better listener....

D: Dad isn't dad. He doesn't show up like a dad. He's just not who I remember.
Me: What do you mean?
D: He's just not interested in us. Not curious about anything. Asks us no questions.
Me: He's selfish right now. Remember?
D: I know. It's just that I've moved and he didn't care to ask any questions. Auntie was asking and he was just listening intently.
Me: Dad knows you moved.
D: Well, ... I don't want to talk about it anymore.

And so the dance continues. Half conversations. Again, do I say too much? Is it me? Is it how she processes?


His fairies and unicorns are hurting my cubs and I feel helpless.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Sorry to hear the kids’ Grandpa had a stroke. A cold emotionless text from Dad is a sad way to convey such news to the kids.

It sounds like your kids handled themselves just fine. Yes, they were surprised that Dad was at the hospital this time, yet figured their way through the interaction with some guidance from you.

They see what’s going on: Dad’s behaviour - black toenail polish (wow!); his utilizing the only chair without sharing; his lack of interest in them and anything really; and so on.

What else can I say to them? Should I give advice? I don't know what to ever say or not say. They continue to struggle. They're hurting so much.

MG, I think your kids are doing well. True, they likely hurt in the moment when visiting with Dad there, and later - feelings flitted away. Be careful not to project your struggling and feelings onto the kids. I did that and had to realize, and effort to see how my kids were actually feeling and coping.

Your kids noticed and told you of Dad’s new behaviours, even laughed about it all. Seeing the humour in this is not in meanness, just a way of rationalizing and coping. If one didn’t laughed they’d cry.

Take heart, in my viewpoint, your kids are not struggling. Well, not with a capital S, small s struggling. Normal, figuring it out kind of stuff. After all, it is a pretty bizzaro world that dear old Dad is presently living in.

What advice, what else you can say to your kids? Validate their feelings and listen to their interpretations of Dad’s behaviours and interactions, or lack thereof. Continue to rationalize the factual details and events. Gently steering as required. Feelings and facts. Discuss feelings, and lead or make decisions based on facts.

- - - -

[D] isn't at peace but has accepted that dad is absent and is acting cowardly. She is also the one who has done more sharing of her feelings over the last 2 years. S is struggling and I find out tonight from D just how much he's struggling.

Careful with Struggling diagnosis. Son is walking his journey to acceptance.

Girls/women in general, share their feelings more than boys/men do. Daughter has done so with you over the past two year and is more open with the situation than son. Through her lens, she feels brother is struggling since he doesn’t share as freely. Perhaps brother is just a different path, and not stuck.

S wants to talk to H. He wants to hear it from his dad. He wants confirmation that he strayed. D told S that dad will lie and won't confess. Wise. S agreed and is still feeling the need to talk to dad.

To me, this is the crux of son’s present journey. He is not struck, nor unhealthily struggling, he is coming to terms with confronting Dad. Look, as a son seeing your Father, your hero, the man you inspired to be fall from grace, fall from the pedestal; that’s a lot to accept.

Guys and gals handle problems and stresses differently. Most times guys face problems head on, or deny them. Son is coming around to facing this head on.

Son is getting, growing, to the point when he can risk losing Dad. At first kids cannot risk losing their parent and project and lash out at the strong stable parent. Eventual they find their way and will turn their feelings towards the appropriate warranted target.

S also told D that he's not talking to me as much because I remind him of dad and he doesn't want to think about dad. Hmmm. Certainly I had noticed that S calls fewer times. S told her, I know I'm being avoidant and I don't want to be. I know it's unhealthy, but it's hard to talk with mom now.

Ok - this is good. S has awareness. Admitting to the problem is step 1.

Be patient. Son is shifting.

What are your suggestions? S may never tell me he's struggling. What can I do? I can't let him know that D told me. Yet, I want to help him open up. You know I've been struggling here and I'm still here. I know I can't make S speak. Do I apply the same DB skills? Give space? Let him come to me? Listen when/if he does.

And, any idea why he's struggling to talk to me?

Keep being strong stable you. Son will come around.

In effort to help him open up. You should reframe that. The way you say/see it, you are making it a problem. And son will live up to whatever expectations you set.

Instead, effort to foster better communication. I suspect you are trying/expecting to talk with son. Directly. Face to face. Or with a phone call. How about text? Or better, a letter? Yes, the paper kind, not email. Something tangible. Hand written. Personable. The power of the written word is interesting. It unconsciously illustrates and promotes care, worth, investment in the recipient. After all, you had to invest time to do it.

A different approach. A different communication may reach son differently. He may feel more comfortable in replying and thus speaking to with you. (Yes, strive for speaking with and not to each other.)

A letter, the written word, is not usually recommended for communication with our wayward spouse. The permanence of it, its charm, and such work against our DB efforts. However, these are the very characteristics you are utilizing to reach son, as son’s situation is not H’s. Other efforts like giving space and time for son to come around are similar. (Just wanted to make clear how DBing skills and tactics are not uniformly transferable.)

As for what to actually write. Or how. I’d likely start with text. Kids nowadays talk by text. Short bits of content and duration. Open up a line of communication (not a questionnaire lol). Funny pictures or memes break the ice pretty well.

Later, a letter showing how proud you are of son and his life. Acknowledging what he, and all of you, have had to face and overcome accept. Letting him clearly know that you are there for him, whenever he needs to talk or just wants to shoot the sh__.

You may not get a speedy response, or any response. But it will be heard, and that will likely be enough. After all, we are their parent, not their best friend. Trust son. He is, and will, talk to daughter. And he will come around.

D shares her own feelings and then asks to change the subject. Doesn't want to talk about it for long. Her approach is to say it out loud and drop it. I'm thinking I need to be a better listener....

You know her approach, go with it. Saying something aloud makes it real. Very powerful stuff, speaking aloud. Never discount it.

And never discount the power of just being there to listen. Speaking aloud requires a listener, a witness. A most important role.

And so the dance continues. Half conversations. Again, do I say too much? Is it me? Is it how she processes?


His fairies and unicorns are hurting my cubs and I feel helpless.

You only feel helpless. You are not actually helpless.

Dad’s fairies and unicorns do not have the power to hurt or control you or your kids’ emotions/feelings. They just don’t. They may trigger something. And you guys let it go.

Hoping you have a wonderful Sunday.

D

[MamaG]

I'll hold space. Give time. DnJ thanks for the reminder that mars and venus are different. Somehow, I lose sight of this. You and Grok kindly remind me. Something I need to really learn rather than passively hear and forget.
If from your seat, I'm projecting my struggling, I have some relief. I'd prefer to reshape my thoughts and beliefs than to know they're struggling.
Time. I'll watch this one and play it out.

Sent S a couple of videos and pictures from this weekend's bday party we attended. And also thanked him for making the trip. Coming home for a family party is an entire day's event - between traveling and the celebration, it is a time absorber. I really do appreciate him showing up despite the distance. And, I'm thinking through the idea of a letter. Perhaps I start with a funny Hallmark card with a couple words. After all, everyone likes mail (that isn't a bill).

As for D, I'll listen and not fight her need to drop it. I can appreciate the value of saying it out loud.

In the end, S and D are great kids...adults. If I must say so myself, I've done well. These aren't the cards I'd want for them, but it's the hand we've been dealt and so we'll play them.

H's uncle called over the weekend to let me know that FIL had a stroke. He reminded me that I'm family and that he'll keep me updated. FIL is coming to a rehab center close to H and SIL. And, as lucky as I am, they chose the rehab place that the AP works at. That'll be a fun visit. Not sure I'll keep all my thoughts to myself should we happen to run into each other. "Thy will be done."


Uncle: Can't believe I'm the only one taking interest in his arrangements. If it weren't for me, he wouldn't get into any rehab.
M:Oh goodness, glad you're helping him.
Uncle: H and SIL (H's sis) spent 3 hours the hospital the first day and haven't returned to see their own father.
M:That's odd.
Uncle: SIL is going there today. H is going to XX.
M: Oh, sounds like he's headed to his girlfriend's family lake house. (WOAH, did I just tell his family? Man, that wasn't planned. Sounds like I'm done carrying that weight. It really just came out.)
Uncle: Oh, I don't know about anything like that.
M: Well that's good that SIL will be there today. (Gave it no more life.)

Uncle sounded like a hero. MLC of his own? Who knows?

Uncle: Well, I will keep you informed. You are family and we love you very much.
M: Thank you for calling me and I love you too.

Meanwhile, work is busier than ever. Keeps me on my toes. Earned myself a spot bonus and was thrilled with the surprise. I laughed with D that it was spent before it was paid out. The irrigation system is breaking the bank. I need to find myself a new company. And, I'm getting the patio sealed because it's been a few years.

It's been 6 weeks since nephew's grad party where dad wasn't acknowledged by me or kids. Also, 6 weeks since Father's Day that wasn't celebrated. We keep on living a life we didn't sign up for. Learning our way.

[grok]

MamaG,

DnJ thanks for the reminder that mars and venus are different. Somehow, I lose sight of this. You and Grok kindly remind me. Something I need to really learn rather than passively hear and forget.

Like everything else in this new version of you...it takes time and effort to embed into your thoughts, behaviors, habits...  The same for me.  You hit it right though.  That is what I see in what you wrote about S.  Those Mars/Venus books I find very good at putting deeper concepts into everyman/woman accessible language.  So, some modified cut/paste of the concepts I think apply to what you see from S. 

A young man where ... On Mars, competence and personal ability are highly valued, so they are driven towards success and accomplishment.

On solving problems  - on their own gives men a feeling of confidence, strength, and self-esteem, so they resist asking for help as a sign of weakness.  She may ask lots of questions about what is wrong or what is bothering him. That is exactly how she would want to be supported. However, Martians feel she doesn’t trust him to solve the problem himself.  On the flip side, if he asks for help or your take this means he respects, trusts and treasures your involvement.  High Praise! (even if he doesn't take the advice in the end)

On distance -

Men may become distant thinking about a problem or say “I’m fine” when clearly not. That disconnect doesn’t mean they don’t care or love her, but they want to solve the problem on their own, rather than burden others with it. 

Men Are Like Rubber Bands:  men periodically need to withdraw to renew themselves. This natural cycle should be respected to maintain balance in relationships.  Men require periodic withdrawal to recharge.

When faced with stress or challenges, men and women have different coping mechanisms. Men tend to withdraw into their “cave,” a metaphorical space where they can process their feelings and thoughts.

Men often offer solutions when women simply want to be heard, while women may offer unsolicited advice when men need space to solve problems on their own

Addendum.  For women: Learn to ask directly for what you need or clarify instead of hinting.  Annoying and crude as it may seem to Venus, that is saying it in HIS language.

Also, Congrats on a spot bonus!  Keep on and Shine like the sun.

g

Shine - Stick Figure

Time stands still, but the clock keeps spinning
I close my eyes and get lost for a minute
The words and the tears, they have long dried up
I think I thought that I'd had enough
Shine on like the sun
Holding on to a feeling
Shine on everyone
Find love to believe in