Hey M. Wow. I had to catch up on quite a bit of what's been happening. I wanted to jump in and similarly say it is great to see how well you're handling all of the things that you've been addressing. I envy your composure and execution.
Before talking about R, you'll read a good deal about "pieceing" on this board. Or, as I like to call it, relentless, incremental progress towards R. To me, it still feels a bit early to suggest your our of the D woods and into piecing though each situation moves at whatever pace it should. Think of piecing as assembly the foundation for R and a new, better relationship. Someone like SteveLW who has successfully DB'd and pieced can likely better comment on this. We instintively want it to move more quickly (because it feels like we've been in limbo forever, we have a life plan that we need to get back to, and lots of other reasons) and patience is key to getting it right w/o compromising the gains you're making for yourself.
Others have already offered suggestions I had related to PE: talk with your doctor, IC, and possibly a sex therapist alone and/or together at some point if/when your W may be ready for it. Also, if you don't already have copies of classics like the Kama Sutra or a more recent book like She Comes First, I suggest giving them a scan at your local bookstore or library. Working at being good in bed is like any other goal.
Also, if you're not familiar with "negative sentiment override" now is a good time to learn about it or refresh your memory. History gets rewritten through a negative lens. As Bustorama suggests, who cares if it is revisionist history. Does trying to contradict W's perceptions help or hurt the goal you're shooting for here? I'd daresay it would hurt to say "You're wrong. That's not true about our sex life". MWD and DBing are focused on solutions-based therapy. What matters is what you're going to do going forward.
Also, Valeska makes a good point and (because it is true about my situation in a different way), I don't want it to get lost. If your W has a substance abuse issue that is unresolved, it will continue to make real, sustained progress difficult if not impossible. Keep an eye on this and talk with your IC about how best you may act on it.
I'm also wondering about some of the comments about not being attracted to you, having an open marraige, having no libido, etc. and my reaction was "Of course she's saying these things; she's got to justify to herself why she had the PA". She's likely feeling guilt, shame, and other negative feelings and looking for a mix of justification and "fair exchange" in terms of telling you to do what you want as long as she doesn't know (to make amends or make things "even" between you). Stick to the high road, Blondie.
I'd say you are at the potential beginning of her working to make amends for her betrayal. As DnJ says, she's got to hit rock bottom to begin climbing back up to where you're at. This is how she can, right now, try to work to regain your trust and confidence by starting to open up. If you haven't, I'll again recommend checking out a copy of What Makes Love Last by Gottman, the chapter on infidelity, and specifically the section about Behavior Change, Transparency, and Verification. Gottman has the arguably the longest, most evidence-based recommendations on all things marital. While I've not had cause to ready MWD's book on infidelity, I believe you said you have and hopefully that provides some more DB-related guidance on managing that aspect of your sitch.
I'll stop here because I don't want to overdue it. I'll reiterate that you're doing a fantastic job. Keep the faith in what you're doing and as MWD says "be patient...very patient" too. Best, P
How can I forgive someone who seems so indifferent to what she's done?
How can I forgive someone who seems so remorseful to what she’s done?
Is there a difference?
Don’t try to forgive the person. That places one on an illusionary moral high ground, from where one dispenses forgiveness to the worthy. None of us can see all ends, or knows who “deserves” forgiveness or not. Forgiving the soul is the providence of God.
We forgive the transgression. The deed. The action. (The immutable past.)
Love the sinner, forgive the sin.
How can I forgive the affair? (The drinking?) That’s the path. It starts with “Can I forgive the affair?”. The first step in finding how to forgive, is realizing you can. Believing you can.
Once you figure that out, the focus automatically shifts off her. As forgiveness is for you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Also, if you're not familiar with "negative sentiment override" now is a good time to learn about it or refresh your memory. History gets rewritten through a negative lens. As Bustorama suggests, who cares if it is revisionist history. Does trying to contradict W's perceptions help or hurt the goal you're shooting for here? I'd daresay it would hurt to say "You're wrong. That's not true about our sex life". MWD and DBing are focused on solutions-based therapy. What matters is what you're going to do going forward.
I read up on negative sentiment override last night, thanks MrP. Certainly seems to apply to my W's view of our MR. At times she seems to have convinced herself that things were always bad, and it takes a lot of self control to not argue back that we've had many happy years.
Originally Posted by MrP
I'm also wondering about some of the comments about not being attracted to you, having an open marraige, having no libido, etc. and my reaction was "Of course she's saying these things; she's got to justify to herself why she had the PA". She's likely feeling guilt, shame, and other negative feelings and looking for a mix of justification and "fair exchange" in terms of telling you to do what you want as long as she doesn't know (to make amends or make things "even" between you). Stick to the high road, Blondie.
She mentioned a version of this y'day when the topic came up. Much of what she had said Saturday she didn't remember, and when I told her "you had suggested relationships outside of the MR" she replied "I figured you would want to do that since I did" or something similar. I didn't go so far as to say "I don't want that", I just validated and said "I know this has been a very rough time" or something similar.
I was reflecting on our talk as I laid in bed last night and felt more and more that it wasn't actually a "good thing". First of all, I brought it up, not her. While she is constantly talking about things when drunk, she has never initiated a talk when sober. She was willing to talk but not enthusiastic whatsoever and the conversations seemed painful at times (this is to be expected). She definitely opened up about things but her attitude about the MR is still very much "we will stay together because we have to". The idea that she is sexually unsatisfied is gnawing at me terribly too. I wonder if what she says when drunk is the real truth (I'm not attracted to you), and she wants to avoid sober conversation because she knows those truths are hurtful to me.
At one point y'day evening she was lying in bed on her phone, so I approached and sat next to her. Her reaction was very strong: "Can you give me some space?! Come on, I haven't had a second to myself all day!" etc. This is a woman who has very little attraction to me, and I've said before that I won't be in a relationship where there is no attraction/intimacy.
Lastly, W has asked f she can plan a bday party for me. As part of dropping the rope, I had said no. She's asked again and now I am considering it.
M, these things are evolutionary. Go read my threads sometime. I tell a story that happened:
One night we were laying in bed after BD. She mentioned to me that she now saw me like -enter acquaintance's name here-, a man that while very nice is not someone my wife would find attractive. She said that's how she thought of me now, that I was just a guy she knew, and wasn't sexually attracted to. "He's a nice guy but I only see him as a friend." I flipped out. This was early on before I got control of my emotional attachment. And she was highly attracted to me in the past. And I had kept myself in good shape through the years through diet, exercise and keeping myself active.
After I calmed down we continued the discussion and I pointed out that a while back, as a way to spice things up, I had bought something (toy) that we had never got around to trying. She said: " Go get it."
I was stunned. One minute she was saying she no longer found me sexually attractive, the next she was initiating! I was shocked "And said 'Are you serious?" It was a natural reaction based on the previous "I now see you like X." She quickly backed away, I believe, because she realized how ridiculous the contradiction was.
It told me two things. First, she was still sexually attracted to me despite her words to the contrary. And second, I could not believe anything she said, and only half of what she did
If you read my threads you'll see that within a few weeks she was initiating sex with me more frequently than at any other time in our marriage.
However, at this point in your situation trying to mind read is a cheese less tunnel. The problem isn't whether or not you can believe what she says drunk or sober, but that you are engaging in these discussions at all. And then following that mistake by thinking you can believe anything she says at all!
Also, 99.99999% of walkaways rewrite history. Mine hadn't "been happy once in the 19 years of marriage". Which was patently untrue. Arguing with them is fruitless because you won't change their mind. And arguing with them lends too much credence to their words.
If you remember nothing else, remember this: "Believe nothing she says!"
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, I have read your threads for sure. Along with R2C and others they've been very helpful. To be honest, I read them as motivation to keep going when I get very discouraged and the last few days have been no exception.
The revelation that W is not happy w the SL is like starting at square one in some sense. Before hearing that, I had really internalized the idea that I am the prize, and was detaching and moving forward while dropping the rope. GAL, 180s, the works. I felt my confidence growing, and noticed her noticing the distance. She was asking questions in a jealous way ("where were you today?" and "Do you think so and so is cute?"). Now it's like I want to play "pick me" - not against OM, but the idea that she is considering the fact that she would have a more fulfilling SL with some other made up dude. I'm re-reading old journal entries from the last few years when she told me outright that we have good sex. It's a real mind-eff. I plan to talk to my IC about it during today's session.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
If you read my threads you'll see that within a few weeks she was initiating sex with me more frequently than at any other time in our marriage.
Can you point me to this thread, or around the time this may have happened and I can explore? Not looking to apply your approach per se, just get some color.
Trying very hard to not believe what she says, but boy do those words cut like a knife!
Last edited by DnJ; 01/17/2403:48 PM. Reason: Corrected quote syntax.
M, it's strange to me that a lot of LBHs in particular really believe anything negative that their walk away says, maybe even more than anything positive. I fell into the same trap.
Here's why you can't believe what she says that's negative. Because she's trying to justify what she is doing. She can't reconcile in her head, "M is hot. We have amazing sex. But I still want the other guy." So she had to setup up that she's not attracted to you and that the SL with you is terrible so that what she is doing makes sense.
The other thing is the difference in men and women. For men, sex leads. If the SL is good then the relationship is good to a man. Women are the opposite. The relationship leads. If things are good in the relationship, then the SL is good to a woman. This is why LBH struggle because they are thinking, "if we can fix the SL, the relationship will follow". That will never work. So forget there SL and keep working on you, and be therefore by extension the relationship.
I can vouch that if you focus on yourself, the relationship will improve, and the SL will come along for the ride eventually.
I'll look for the thread where all that occured. It was in March of 2018, so I'm guessing it was probably in my first 2-4 threads.
Please do not ignore the advice on the birthday party.. Likely it's her trying to feel better about what she's doing. Don't fall for it. Likely you'll have another birthday next year. If things are better then she can throw you one then. If it's a milestone birthday, you can later tell her that there is nothing wrong with having a "41st birthday since I didn't give him a 40th".
Stay strong
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Here's why you can't believe what she says that's negative. Because she's trying to justify what she is doing. She can't reconcile in her head, "M is hot. We have amazing sex. But I still want the other guy." So she had to setup up that she's not attracted to you and that the SL with you is terrible so that what she is doing makes sense.
Not sure if it matters, but W is not in an active A. You've asked me this before and I know I can't be certain, but I've seen enough and heard enough from her and others that I am choosing to believe she isn't. The blowback from the one PA three years ago seems to have impacted her enough that I don't believe she's doing anything at the moment.
But to go with your logic, I can see how she would re-write history to say "M and I never had real chemistry, so you can't blame me for having an A." She actually said a version of that while drunk last weekend: "Everyone is going to blame me for the PA, but part of this was about our SL". When I asked her to say more, and if the PA was about better sex, she backtracked and said "No, it was disgusting" which is more congruent with everything else she's said previously. So lots and lots of mixed messages.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
The other thing is the difference in men and women. For men, sex leads. If the SL is good then the relationship is good to a man. Women are the opposite. The relationship leads. If things are good in the relationship, then the SL is good to a woman. This is why LBH struggle because they are thinking, "if we can fix the SL, the relationship will follow". That will never work. So forget there SL and keep working on you, and be therefore by extension the relationship.
I hear you. This is where the fear comes in: W essentially told me on Saturday that she pleasures herself because we don't have a SL and that she is in fact high libido, just not for me. With the way she has gone out and partied in the past, it would seem to me only a matter of time before she slips up and does it again. This is the real fear I have. I understand it doesn't change what I need to do (continue focusing on myself). I'm just writing it down here to get that thought out.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Please do not ignore the advice on the birthday party..
M, I completely understand the want/need to do a temp check from time to time. It's where one knows where one stands.
But I do also hope you realize that these conversations are not good for YOU. And TBH - I'm not if it provides any info that you don't already know or that they somehow prove your wife is "not done" with the marriage.
I second Steve with the birthday party. Even if she's not trying to relieve guilt - she certainly won't be sober for it which will only lead to a disaster for you. You don't deserve to be a punching bag EVER but specifically on this day.
Alcohol is not a "truth serum". Being drunk does not equal "it's my way to tell you how I really feel". It is a decision made because she is incapable of coping with her feelings in a healthy way so this gives her a excuse to say and do what SHE wants. Please try to see it for what it is. It speaks more about her issues versus yours.
I know how tough it is when your spouse makes those comments. When I quit smoking - I had gained 20 lbs. My xw had the nerve to tell me that "right or wrong - she didn't feel as attracted to me". I was crushed and it affected me a long time.
But over a decade later - I can look and see those were her issues. She was overweight and her mom said beautiful = skinny. So that was her lense. Your wife has her.
The body, cologne, nice clothes are only a very small part of the equation. Lord knows their are plenty of men out there who have those things and still give off the "doucheb@g" vibe.
The attraction comes down to YOU believing you are the prize. Even if your wife doesn't chose you in the end... it doesn't devalue you. Remember that.
Just as you believe she is worth fighting for. So are you M.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
So long as she is not violating your core boundaries, it's a fine line of not accepting crap behavior and disrespect, working on yourself/GAL, and listening and validating her so you can begin to speak her love languages better as/when she approaches you with a desire to work on the R.
I pulled this quote from a post earlier in this thread because it provides a good summary of the roadmap from here. I'm still very much struggling with the revelations from last Saturday and feel compelled to try connecting with my wife so I can "fix" things with some good sex. Dumb idea, driven by fear. I need to step back and accept what I've been told, focus on myself, and continue the 180s/GAL.
A good mantra for this moment is "I am strong enough to handle criticism and confident enough to tackle my problems head on".
Yesterday I went to AT&T to get a new phone and remove my line from our family plan. We now have two separate accounts: one for me, one for her. Just a small step I decided to take as a precursor to whatever may come next, because the timing was right. It also makes things easier from an expense perspective with work.
I was heavily flirting with the young lady working there and she was fully into it, which was fun. These are skills that I have always kept somewhat sharp but I can definitely improve. When I leave the house now I talk to EVERYONE I can - it's fun and helps with "approach anxiety" with women if/when I am back in the game for real.
