The last few days have been great. I've been busy at work as the calendar year comes to a close. Some mild weather gave me a chance to complete a last bit of landscaping before we got any major snow. A few of my investment decisions from the last 2-3 years are doing quite nicely so, as a personal finance hobbyist, I got a bit of a rush from that success.
As far as DBing goes, my detaching and GALing are going well. I've been diving into cataloging a comic book collection because I'd like to sell off all but a few storylines that are meaningful to me. I donated a bunch of old clothing and slimmed-down things that are solely "mine" around the house. I've also added some new clothes to my wardrobe and received compliments from friends and co-workers about my appearance. Being sick for two weeks helped me shed about 10 pounds so there is some silver lining to that otherwise miserable period.
I'm doing well at minimizing conversation with W and keeping my words to a minimum. W tried striking up social conversation on a few topics. My responses were pleasant and brief while pivoting to complete some tasks that W knew I'd been trying to get to around the house, meaning I exited EVERY conversation first. My next goal is to finish Christmas shopping over the weekend. Shopping will be crazy around here now and I love that, especially when compared with when we were locked down due to COVID.
I hope all is going as well as it can for all of you. I'm enjoying a book recommended elsewhere on this site (and out of print) called The Solo Partner. I'm hopeful I'll be able to share in my future posts some suggestions from that book that I'm finding helpful in case you may too.
Oh and I see I titled this "Thread" my 2nd "Threat" so I'm hoping a moderator can fix that issue since I'm not "Threatening" anyone or anything!
(Title all fixed up. Less threatening now. Haha. - DnJ)
Last edited by DnJ; 12/15/2301:29 AM. Reason: Confirming title correction.
Thanks, DnJ for the edits. It is much less threatening now!
W surprised me and asked if we could go to my old parish for Christmas mass because D13 has taken an interest in my religious upbringing. W is non-denominational. I'm a lapsed Catholic. However, my church community has remained solid, the church is beautifully decorated for the holidays, and the choir sounds fantastic. I will enjoy being back "home" for sure. I also love showing D13 a bit of what my life was like growing up. I said "Let's talk when we have more time" and headed out to work.
I also found out a 2nd cousin who was fairly active in our family passed away unexpectedly. It always seems like this time of each leads to two or three unexpected deaths among my family, friends, or co-workers. D13 doesn't get to see this extended family often and, while a sad event, appreciates knowing we've got more family out there than she originally understood.
I've got some winterizing fertilizer ready to spread. Decided to start another, indoor improvement project. We'll see some more of my immediate family on Sunday for another event. Have a good weekend, all.
It illustrates how challenging it can be to break old habits and form new, better ones. It might be silly but I put a slight dot on my hand with a Sharpie as a reminder to STFU and be more frugal with my words when I interact with W.
That’s a good idea.
It takes about three weeks of purposeful effort to form a habit. And about twice as long to break a habit. That purposeful effort becoming minimal or ingrained as the habit takes hold. After all, that is what a habit basically is.
Another “tool” for behaviour modification - a rubber band sitting loosely around your wrist. When you feel the push/need to do something, give the rubber band a pull and let it go. Albeit, this tactic is better suited to say detachment. For example, when one’s emotions get dragged around, give that rubber band a snap. That snap interrupts our feelings and our reinforcement of them, which allows them to extinguish. Like the sharpie mark, something to focus (or snap into focus) one’s purposeful effort.
Congratulations on your investment decisions. A very nice success. (MrP now riding around in a Ferrari. )
Your life sounds full. Work, comics, house projects, etc. Excellent!
I think it is a lovely idea to take D13 to your old parish for Christmas mass. I’m sure she’ll enjoy seeing it, and seeing a bit of your childhood life.
Regarding W, keep expectations at zero. She may go, she may cancel, she may be talkative, she may be silent. Just go with the flow.
Enjoy the gift shopping this weekend.
Merry Christmas to you and your’s.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I like the rubber band idea as well and can see where a good "snap" will come in handy at times. The investment decisions weren't as grand as to be able to fund that Ferrari, but they will help offset some expenses for the next five years or so. Shopping is almost done so that will be a relief. I'm rounding out the rest of my gifts with restaurant gift cards because my older family tends to like those experiences.
I attended my cousin's funeral yesterday. Though sad, it was nice to see family who'd come from all over the country. We laughed. We cried. We said goodbye in the best way possible. I also met some of the younger generation of cousins I've not previously had a chance to meet. I found myself quite happy to talk with them.
I'm excited to take D13 to mass. I'm not always thrilled with some of the new hymns or changes to old ones. That is a small price to pay for the overall experience with D13.
Merry Christmas DnJ (and to everyone). I'm so glad this board is welcoming, supportive, and pushing me to reflect on my own BS/blind spots/avoidance. The growth I'm experiencing as a result is a great help.
Thanks, Steve. For some reason, something "clicked" recently for me. I've been taking lots of action to figure out what makes me happy, what's best for D13, and just thinking each day about the best I can do that day, one at a time. Re-reading this material repeatedly, and journaling the things that really resonate, is helpful when trying to help others. Thanks for all your input. Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones as well.
MrP I find your thread encouraging. I remember a feeling of inability to summon myself when going through these difficult times and to read one where someone in our position seems to have that ability to reign themselves in and focus on themselves successfully ... it creates a hope that we can live happily even in the face of great adversity. I realize you're likely still facing overwhelming challenge but it sounds to me like you're doing it right. I wish you the best.
M: 43 W: 43 Married 6 yrs. T: 7 yrs. Son 20, 18, 17, 15 yrs. (w/ Autism), 12, 10
Thanks, Steve. For some reason, something "clicked" recently for me. I've been taking lots of action to figure out what makes me happy, what's best for D13, and just thinking each day about the best I can do that day, one at a time. Re-reading this material repeatedly, and journaling the things that really resonate, is helpful when trying to help others. Thanks for all your input. Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones as well.
I remember my "it just clicked" moment in my own situation. Shortly after I found the board (even though I had known about MWD and DBing for years), I was at work and it hit me that I was going to be ok no matter what. I remember I was able to go eat lunch for the first time in weeks! And I was actually hungry. Now there were moments of doom and gloom and temptation to do things I knew I shouldn't (like snoop and or start an R talk) after that, but it really kick started my becoming more consistent in my DBing with less back sliding.
By the way, the effects of that on my WAS were fairly immediate and noticable. Not that she gave up on her desire for D right away, but I could tell her commitment to that course of action began to wane.
You'll have rough days ahead, but you are headed in the right direction.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks, both Bunches and Steve. The feedback received from this community, lots of re-reading, and self-reflection are steadily coming together. Given this is my 2nd time with DBing, and initially the first time was filled with doing many of the wrong things until my IC turned me on to MWD, I found this forum, and got one of the DB coaches, was just miserable. Over the last 4-5 years, I've put into practice a great deal of what we discuss here, as well as other marital gurus like Gottman (becoming an expert on W) and Tatkin (especially his guidance around avoidant attachment).
When D came up again a few months ago, while I was still a bit shocked, it didn't hit me as hard as the first time. I'm pretty darn proud of the changes I have made and continue to improve. There are moments when I slip up or repeat an old habit. Those moments are few and far between. The idea that "you didn't break S and can't fix S" really sunk in for me over the last few weeks.
I can tell when W is trying to initiate conflict so that she can attribute responsibility to me for something. I let that bait go untouched. I've told W that I deserve to talk about any given topic courteously and respectfully or I will not participate. By GALing, I've given W time and space to see that "stuff happens" even when I am not around. Until the discussion about D is resolved, my services as a H are unavailable. Aside from consultation to ensure D13 won't be alone or her needs otherwise addressed, my plans are my own.
Bunches, I like the idea of being able to "summon myself". The first time this happened, I'd just come off a terrible time at work. I was also diagnosed with a disability that, while manageable, left me depressed. It was really difficult to choose to summon my best self. I've been on much better footing and more confident this time around. My diet is better. I'm working out. I'm sleeping well. I've got plans if we D and plans if we don't.
So far, it isn't overwhelming (been there, done that). It is challenging. There are rough days. I will be OK as I know will most if not all of us here. I've got a nice plot of land for now in Limboland, time to do lots of positive things for myself, D13, family, friends, and professionally with the the gift of time for now. Again, I'm grateful for your feedback and hope I can be helpful to you in return.
The last few days went relatively well. Several of my in-laws were sick, so D13, W, and I ended up alone at home for Christmas Eve. We didn't do mass because D13 also felt sick. I ran out to pull together an alternate menu that was delicious. We played a few games, watched some Christmas movies, and called it a night.
The next moring. I finished wrapping gifts for D13 and from D13 to W. D13 seemed to like all of her gifts. Once the dust settled, she and her friends were on FaceTime, showing off their gifts and wishing each other Merry Christmas.
D13 later asked W if W was coming to my family's house on Christmas Day. I'd previously told her she was welcome and it was also fine if she had other plans. W opted to join us. D13 was happy. I felt as I have when I've invited a friend to join my family when their plans fell through or they'd otherwise be alone (which W would've done due to much of her family being sick). I lost a friend to suicide on a holiday many years ago whose loneliness got the better of him. That experience left me with a "thing" about people I know being alone on a major holiday.
I observed a few things. Everyone had a good time. W also commented that next year we should leave our dog at home so that W will worry less about it snatching food (which it didn't). Given discussions about D, I didn't respond since my understanding we won't be together at that point. W made a similar, future-oriented comment later (about food or drink to bring next year) in the evening that I can't fully recall. To me, both felt like temperature checks. Neither of them required a reply from me so, in the spirit of DBing, I just noted that she made them without assigning further value to them.
This morning, D13 and W talked about how much they enjoyed yesterday. We had five family dogs running around, ate well, drank, laughed, and stayed in the moment. I slept like a rock. Splurged on some more expensive coffee, and started the time-honored tradition of assembling some of D13s gifts. I also threw on "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" which is a tradition my dad and I started long ago. I'm out the door to attend a birthday party solo tonight. I'm also going out with my oldest friends in a few days as part of another tradition.
DnJ, you'll hopefully be proud to know that I'm following your sage advice and making myself comfortable in Limboland!
W also commented that next year we should leave our dog at home so that W will worry less about it snatching food (which it didn't). Given discussions about D, I didn't respond since my understanding we won't be together at that point. W made a similar, future-oriented comment later (about food or drink to bring next year) in the evening that I can't fully recall. To me, both felt like temperature checks. Neither of them required a reply from me so, in the spirit of DBing, I just noted that she made them without assigning further value to them.
My W does the same thing, MrP. She will make comments about getting a dog someday, remodeling the house, or getting a new mattress. I like to validate the statement and nothing else ("A dog is great for families" or "I can see what you mean, this mattress is old"). Looks like you handled it well.
Originally Posted by MrP
I also threw on "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" which is a tradition my dad and I started long ago.
An all-time classic! I actually picture Clint Eastwood's character in this film as part of a mental exercise I do to stay grounded. Nothing rattles Blondie.
Originally Posted by MrP
DnJ, you'll hopefully be proud to know that I'm following your sage advice and making myself comfortable in Limboland!
You are inspiring to readers like me who are still learning what Limboland is all about.
Thanks, M. It is tough to shed or compartmentalize the emotions that this experience can present. DnJ often reminds people about the gift of time. I've not been as present in so many moments of my day as I should be. It has been helpful to stop and enjoy a good cup of coffee, a moment of near-complete quiet, or get lost in a 2-3-hour workout.
W pulled me aside to say we need to talk about what we're doing. The D papers she filed expire soon and if we're not going to do anything then she'll have wasted some money. She lobbed the idea of staying together at least through D13's time in high school to see how things go. Also, she noted that my mom was very kind to her on Christmas Day (recall they've had some struggles).
I said, "Hmm...say more about what that looks like to you". She said that she wasn't happy with potential housing options if we D, is not interested in jumping back into the dating pool, and wondered what the impact of this arrangement would be on D13.
My initial reaction: it felt like more temp checking with a bit of cake sampling. I thanked her for sharing. After pausing to show I'd listened, I said "I'm not certain I'd be satisfied with that arrangement. I need to think more about what is best for me and D13".
There would have to be meaningful, positive progress for me to stay. For example, W needs to make headway on resolving her prior traumas (for example, resume seeing a good IC, increase her meds, or some similar, concrete short-term results). Fix herself first and then see if we can move to steadily piecing.
I ended the conversation by saying "I need to hit the restroom" which, if not over-used, can be a great way to exit these conversations first. I didn't commit to a specific date for a follow-up discussion. As advised in previous responses to my posts, I can go down this road with her. I don't have to help pave it.
By comparison, I feel optimistic about my potential life post-D. I wonder if it may be better for me long-term. In my head, I hear our last MC telling me that W will have a tough time overcoming her past traumas such that our relationship would be stuck otherwise. D13 may also be better off seeing me do well both independently and, down the line, in a healthier relationship.
Before whatever alien abducted W, (MLC, WAS, mental health, menopause, etc.), we had a strong relationship. Once D13 came along, it seemed to up the ante in terms of W's anxiety to a point where she is more easily overwhelmed by life stuff. Part of being a good H means standing by a W through (sickness and health, til death do us part), right? I also recall MWD suggesting kids are one, important (not the primary) reason couples should work to stay happy and together. This site is about DBing after all.
Since this conversation is fresh, I'm going to kick it around in my head for a day or two. Thoughts appreciated, as always. Be well!
I was reading along, catching up after a few busy days here with family and kids. I smiled at your acceptance and embracing of things and uncertainty.
Originally Posted by MrP
DnJ, you'll hopefully be proud to know that I'm following your sage advice and making myself comfortable in Limboland!
Got to admit, I’m touched.
I was reading along and did a long pause here. Yes, I am proud of you. Sincerely, you are doing very well. Good living and good advice to fellow posters/travellers.
Originally Posted by MrP
W pulled me aside to say we need to talk about what we're doing. The D papers she filed expire soon and if we're not going to do anything then she'll have wasted some money. She lobbed the idea of staying together at least through D13's time in high school to see how things go. Also, she noted that my mom was very kind to her on Christmas Day (recall they've had some struggles).
Interesting.
I believe awakening starts with a whisper of doubt.
You replied well, and nicely did not jump upon her plan, nor committed to anything.
Thanking her for sharing was excellent.
If you decide to follow up, I’d add something along the lines of “I am willing to explore you and I. To see if we still have any spark or chemistry. To see if we get along. I’m different. I’ve changed and grown; you might not like who I’ve become.”
Also, it’s Christmas. This time of year stirs emotions. Lots of folks feel regrets and such, and those feelings flit as quick as the decorations are boxed away.
Still, emotions do come from somewhere. Inside W there is something going on. Will she’ll bury it or face it.
Originally Posted by MrP
Part of being a good H means standing by a W through (sickness and health, til death do us part), right? I also recall MWD suggesting kids are one, important (not the primary) reason couples should work to stay happy and together. This site is about DBing after all.
Right you are.
W obviously has some feelings of loss. This is good. Let those feelings help the cause.
Yes, kids are important. So is respect and loyalty and faithfulness.
In my opinion, most marriages fail, as do reconciliations, because of love. Let me explain a bit.
Getting married because you love them is not a good thing. You already have the love, so why get married?
Marrying for love is no better than marrying for money, or power, or fame, etc. As love waxes and wanes so does the “reason” to be married.
Instead, people should marry because they respect the other person. They respect and value that other person’s beliefs, viewpoints, opinions, choices, and so on. Of course they love them. Yet realize, love is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Respect is the cake and substance of a relationship.
Something to consider while in Limboland.
Respect is still possible even while indifferent. A better chance at a successful reconciliation comes from knowing, actually believing, in respect towards the other person. Consistent and demonstrated positive behaviour fosters respect. Love will come.
It takes time and effort to regain respect and trust. Oh both sides. To both find it, and to demonstrate it. When gauging probabilities look to those signs, rather than signs of love and feelings. IMHO.
Originally Posted by MrP
DnJ often reminds people about the gift of time.
You have the gift of time here. Use it well.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi all. Hope everyone is doing as well as possible.
As a quick recap, the D paperwork W had prepped was set to expire next week if I wasn't served. I knew that could lead to 1) being served 2) not being served and 3) not being served with the potential to be served further down the road. W asked to talk and let tearfully let me know that she chose to move forward with the D. I said I understood and repeated something one of the DB counselors taught me ~5 years ago "To me, divorce isn't the solution to our problems. However, I love and respect you enough to let go".
Overall, I feel relief. I'm still at peace with either path (D or not D with my boundaries and requirements being actively addressed. I've done too much work to settle for less).
I know that being served isn't the end and there is a lot of time before a judge bangs a gavel down and declares the marriage officially done. I've got plans tomorrow with friends from high school. I'm watching the NCAA football championship with other friends.
Most of my property is pre-marital so, thanks to my L, I have a good sense of how those chips will fall if the D becomes final. In some ways, being better prepared for a D makes the other half of DBing easier for me. I continue to focus on me and D13, remain aloof and positive when around W, and am glad for the support of this community. I can see W is struggling and sad. While I wish I could say and do more, I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago. I can offer the support I'd offer a friend if they ask. Otherwise, W is getting lots more time and space.
As always, thanks, each of you, for being along (virtually) for the ride. It helps!
MrP - well done on handling a tough situation. I commend you on staying centered and grounded, your example shows me and other newbies what is possible when faced with non-ideal outcomes.
Enjoy the weekend and the GAL time you've scheduled for yourself.
MrP - well done on handling a tough situation. I commend you on staying centered and grounded, your example shows me and other newbies what is possible when faced with non-ideal outcomes.
Enjoy the weekend and the GAL time you've scheduled for yourself.
Thanks, M. You're too kind! I certainly didn't get to this point overnight. The 1st DB was a variation of similar experiences to what many others here describe. I made tons of mistakes. I make fewer mistakes now. I resisted the techniques that others discussed and was too...scared perhaps...to actively post on this board. I felt like this time I needed to give back to this community that has been so helpful. It makes me happy to hear I'm helping others in any way I can.
And I haven't even bought my usual 1-2 Christmas presents for myself yet so I've got to find some time to pick those up this weekend too. With gratitude, P
You are walking an excellent path. Regarding D, continue to only respond to W, and leave her to the heavy lifting.
Originally Posted by MrP
Most of my property is pre-marital so, thanks to my L, I have a good sense of how those chips will fall if the D becomes final.
Speaking with a lawyer and knowing your rights and likely outcome, as well as best and worse case scenarios, is most wise.
Originally Posted by MrP
In some ways, being better prepared for a D makes the other half of DBing easier for me.
Absolutely. Knowing the business side of this allows one put more of their efforts into their emotional healing path.
Originally Posted by MrP
I continue to focus on me and D13, remain aloof and positive when around W, and am glad for the support of this community. I can see W is struggling and sad. While I wish I could say and do more, I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago.
“I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago.” That is a good outlook. Now make hay. Time and space. Let her feel her choices.
Originally Posted by MrP
I can offer the support I'd offer a friend if they ask. Otherwise, W is getting lots more time and space.
I’d likely would not provide the same support as I would a friend. After all, are you and her, friends?
Originally Posted by MrP
And I haven't even bought my usual 1-2 Christmas presents for myself yet so I've got to find some time to pick those up this weekend too.
Now you can get those presents on sale.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi DnJ. Thanks for weighing in and for the helpful overview of how to use various commands on this site.
Originally Posted by DnJ
I'd likely would not provide the same support as I would a friend. After all, are you and her, friends?
Fair question. I wrestle with this a bit. Because of D13, I hesitate to think of W as just an acquaintance or someone with whom I have a business relationship. If we D, I want to maintain at least a productive relationship with W for D13's sake. One thing I remember from growing up with divorced parents is that my dad remained friendly and positive when dealing with my mother, no matter what. It wasn't reciprocated, but he did it anyway. Still does today. I realize W and I needn't be friends if we D to have a productive relationship.
When I think of friends that may be on the lower-effort side of my overall spectrum of friends, if one of them were to call me and ask for help, I'd at least try to be there to provide some fundamental support. I'd not do the same for people I'd consider acquaintances like a former co-worker with whom I lack a social relationship. Right now, W feels like something in-between to me.
At the same time, I realize that offering too much support to an XW can enable cake-eating. I expect one has to find a balance between demonstrating to one's child that you care about what matters to the child and doing things consistent with your values in terms of helping others, while also maintaining healthy boundaries with an ex-. I guess this is going to be a work in progress for me to explore. Again, I appreciate you raising it.
Hi all. Hope everyone is doing as well as possible.
As a quick recap, the D paperwork W had prepped was set to expire next week if I wasn't served. I knew that could lead to 1) being served 2) not being served and 3) not being served with the potential to be served further down the road. W asked to talk and let tearfully let me know that she chose to move forward with the D. I said I understood and repeated something one of the DB counselors taught me ~5 years ago "To me, divorce isn't the solution to our problems. However, I love and respect you enough to let go".
Overall, I feel relief. I'm still at peace with either path (D or not D with my boundaries and requirements being actively addressed. I've done too much work to settle for less).
I know that being served isn't the end and there is a lot of time before a judge bangs a gavel down and declares the marriage officially done. I've got plans tomorrow with friends from high school. I'm watching the NCAA football championship with other friends.
Most of my property is pre-marital so, thanks to my L, I have a good sense of how those chips will fall if the D becomes final. In some ways, being better prepared for a D makes the other half of DBing easier for me. I continue to focus on me and D13, remain aloof and positive when around W, and am glad for the support of this community. I can see W is struggling and sad. While I wish I could say and do more, I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago. I can offer the support I'd offer a friend if they ask. Otherwise, W is getting lots more time and space.
As always, thanks, each of you, for being along (virtually) for the ride. It helps!
My guess is every single person gets to that point eventually. The ironic part is that showing strength gives you the best chance to reconcile. Also, if you truly love someone you will give them what makes them happy. You have hit the nail on the head that this is all about fear it really has nothing to do with your wife and who she is as a person. With time and distance you will see it. The problem is that your brain is trying everything in its power to get you to stay in this “safe place” and wait for the storm to blow over. It’s up to you to decide if you should ride the storm out and see if your current place is salvageable or you evacuate and go build a potentially amazing place somewhere else.
As far as your responsibility in the breakdown of your marriage. It’s great that you acknowledge it, some don’t, but remember that you did the best that you could with the knowledge you had at the time.
Thank you, Boat. Right on all counts. I love the comparison to a storm. I do feel like I was responsive to the information that I received when I received it. I could've picked up the issues sooner, understand that much better now, and will be a a great partner to someone who reciprocates it.
Thought I'd stop by and share a brief update. All is fairly quiet around here. I acknowledged receipt of the divorce papers and sent the rest off to my L. L and I did share a quick update on my desired strategy for approaching D. D13 is my priority. Everything else will be fine and I'm expecting to do a bit better than if W and I weren't keeping the peace.
Last weekend, I had a great time out with some friends for a milestone birthday party. I reconnected with a male friend from high school who just got out of a relationship. We're planning to get together regularly. Bumped into an ex-girlfriend at this party. She texted me afterward a few times and I've been spare in my responses. The whole group is also going to try to get together every few months so that would be a nice surprise.
I'm making my way through the house taking care of repair and improvement work that I tend to defer until the cold weather hits. I enjoy manual labor: doing a quality job, the sense of completion, and the pure focus on the task. We got hit with a ton of snow and cold weather so I got a great workout clearing that up. Tomorrow it's back to the treadmill and free weights for a few hours.
W commented about potentially sleeping in the master bedroom with me this weekend. I said "Sure" in a neutral tone". I'm expecting mixed signals like this will pop up now and then. Thankfully I'm prepped to keep practicing my DB habits.
D13 appears to be handling things well. From the sound of things, she talks with me more openly and directly than W. I talk positively about W, reiterate none of this is due to D13, and assure her that I'll bust my butt to make sure life for us is as good as possible. I remind her she is well-loved by many family and friends. We're all here for her however she'd like us to be.
And so, another day passes in Limboland. It feels great to slow life down. I'm picking up books I've set aside and making time to read them. I'm hoping to pick up a new laptop so that I can use it for a side hustle or two. All in all, it has been a peaceful week. I wish the same for all of you.
Not much new to share. My L is getting a response to the D papers back to me. Pretty straightforward stuff. Focusing on GAL and went out with the father of one of D13's friends. He is from the UK so not too much community here. Lots of good discussion about concerts we attended around the same time, great beer, and aspirations of books we expect to write at some point.
W commented how late I got home. I said "Yeah that was late", got some coffee, and headed up to my home office. I showered then W came in to shower. She made some flirty jokes while almost naked and threw me a sexy smile. I closed the bathroom door, didn't look back, and got ready to take D13 shopping. My observation based on a few things that happened over the last week is that W is wrestling a bit with my being less social and starting to see what shouldering certain things solo (dealing with automotive issues, being the only one caring for the dog that W wanted, technology issues, etc.) is going to be like. W reluctantly asked for help with 1-2 things. Since we're still under the same roof and I want D13 to know that I expect to treat W with kindness, I helped W out.
W ended up joining our mall trip to help D13 pick out some new outfits. It was a pleasant trip and I know D13 was happy the three of us spent the day together. W suggested that I join her and D13 on two, upcoming trips with my in-laws. I countered with "Thanks. I was thinking of taking a solo trip since you two will be gone and I've not done one in a while" and left it at that. Felt like another temp-check and, if I were to go, like setting the stage for some cake eating (all the benefits of a husband for W w/o being one - I'd be another driver, problem-solver, decision-maker, help keep D13 occupied, etc.). I'd rather take the time to relax at home or on a short, solo getaway.
I'm planning to work out for ~ 2 hours tomorrow, making a good breakfast, and catching up on reading 1-2 books I picked up over the holiday: one fiction book and another a book on improving one's mental health. I love grocery shopping so tomorrow I'll be stocking up on stuff for the week ahead. Temps are super cold here right now so I try to enjoy the crisp, fresh air each morning. I've not felt so relaxed for a while. If you aren't making time to slow life down a bit, I encourage you to do it. Make a list of 2-3 things you typically enjoy and make some time to stretch out enjoying them!
Not much new to share. My L is getting a response to the D papers back to me. Pretty straightforward stuff. Focusing on GAL and went out with the father of one of D13's friends. He is from the UK so not too much community here. Lots of good discussion about concerts we attended around the same time, great beer, and aspirations of books we expect to write at some point.
W commented how late I got home. I said "Yeah that was late", got some coffee, and headed up to my home office. I showered then W came in to shower. She made some flirty jokes while almost naked and threw me a sexy smile. I closed the bathroom door, didn't look back, and got ready to take D13 shopping. My observation based on a few things that happened over the last week is that W is wrestling a bit with my being less social and starting to see what shouldering certain things solo (dealing with automotive issues, being the only one caring for the dog that W wanted, technology issues, etc.) is going to be like. W reluctantly asked for help with 1-2 things. Since we're still under the same roof and I want D13 to know that I expect to treat W with kindness, I helped W out.
W ended up joining our mall trip to help D13 pick out some new outfits. It was a pleasant trip and I know D13 was happy the three of us spent the day together. W suggested that I join her and D13 on two, upcoming trips with my in-laws. I countered with "Thanks. I was thinking of taking a solo trip since you two will be gone and I've not done one in a while" and left it at that. Felt like another temp-check and, if I were to go, like setting the stage for some cake eating (all the benefits of a husband for W w/o being one - I'd be another driver, problem-solver, decision-maker, help keep D13 occupied, etc.). I'd rather take the time to relax at home or on a short, solo getaway.
I'm planning to work out for ~ 2 hours tomorrow, making a good breakfast, and catching up on reading 1-2 books I picked up over the holiday: one fiction book and another a book on improving one's mental health. I love grocery shopping so tomorrow I'll be stocking up on stuff for the week ahead. Temps are super cold here right now so I try to enjoy the crisp, fresh air each morning. I've not felt so relaxed for a while. If you aren't making time to slow life down a bit, I encourage you to do it. Make a list of 2-3 things you typically enjoy and make some time to stretch out enjoying them!
Just stopping by to see how others are doing and share a quick update. My L sent my wife's L our resposne to the divorce complaint. W broke down in tears while cooking a bit after reading my response. I had my L make some adjustments to the standard responses where the "respondent" simply affirms or denies statements in the divorce complaint (side note - how silly and archaic is this process). The main thing that upset W is that, in resposne to a standard statement about the "objects of matrimony" being destroyed beyond all hope for reconciliation, I asked my L to state that I "neither agree or disagree with that statement, leaving complainant (W) to her proofs" meaning I don't know if there is not hope for reconciliation. W said it bothered her that I wouldn't agree with her (that there isn't hope for reconciliation).
I said that I can see why from her perspective my agreeing may feel better. She was also upset that my L initially pushed back about either party getting child support. I stated that I understood that to be "boilerplate" language much like language W's attorney used in the complaint. It is likely in our state that W will get something (my income is double hers); no need to get into that in response to what W was saying at the time. I'm fired as an H and also her L. I ended the discussion by saying "I recongize this is a difficult time" and then said I was going to let D13 know dinner would be ready soon, giving W some time to regain her composure.
That's all for now folks.
Last edited by DnJ; 01/26/2404:52 PM. Reason: Fixed up a few typos.
Dropping in on your thread to say that your composure and cool head are a great example for those of us who might be heading to where you are. I have heard for a long time that if you do the work you will develop the strength to rise above the fear and you have personified that P.
Sometimes I think if I were the guy I am becoming now 10 years ago none of this would be happening, but that's a silly thought. In a strange way I am grateful for this growth even if it does mean D and a new path.
Thanks, M and D. Please excuse my typos too. Wow. I swear I proofed that post and Grammarly automatically checks everything I write. I may need to add an eye exam to my GAL schedule!
M, unfortunately, and as you know, we can't go back in time. I see Ws and Hs struggling over old wounds and expect both parties would do better if they could get a do-over. MWDs book resonated with me because of the focus she places on the future and solutions. If someone chooses to stay stuck in past injuries (real and perceived), chooses not to forgive, put effort into addressing their contributions, etc. while we are doing the DB work then, after allowing things to try and heal, moving on is in our best interest. I'll admit to still feeling fear while moving forward, enforcing boundaries, and doing other work. This forum, our collective stories, and perhaps some residual religious upbringing in my life among other things are driving me to have faith in what I'm doing. I believe (more often than not) I'm doing the right things.
Today, W also expressed disappointment that I would not join her, my in-laws, and D13 on a spring break trip this year that involved meeting up with W's best friend and husband. I restated what I'd previously stated - for me to remain home. Later, when we reflected on a milestone b-day we celebrated with these friends, I commented on what a great time we had. W sarcastically said, "Well, I guess we won't this time". Nothing to respond to there so I didn't.
I'm taking a vacation day so today has largely focused on updating my budget for the new year, relaxing with terrible, old horror movies (Phantasm anyone?), and hopefully time for a long workout. In case I'm not back here until Monday, I wish you all a great weekend.
Hey DnJ. It was a great weekend. Had several nice dinners. D13 is talking to me A LOT. And, I got some nice recognition today at work for a project that I finished on Sunday.
A few interesting things happening around here. W is frustrated that I won't join a trip with my in-laws and D13 to see W's best friend and her husband. I maintained it doesn't make sense to me.
Now my in-laws can't go so W is upset because W doesn't want to drive 8-10 hours alone with D13 across 2-3 states. She also said that D13 is upset about another change in plans (something similar happened last year at this time). I was walking out of the house as this conversation was happening with my MIL and didn't quite make it before W said, "Mom, let me call you back. H is leaving for work".
W proceeded to tell me about all the issues, lamenting her back luck, expressing her fear about driving along with D13, and a host of other issues. I know from experience that, in cases like this, W is looking for me to save the day with solutions. Instead, I just offered some validation along the lines of "Yeah that is rightfully disappointing". W stared at me as if to say "That's it. You're not going to offer to help?". Instead, I said, "I have to get to work for a morning meeting. Keep me posted on what you two are going to do" and off I went.
I'm getting all my asset and liability info to my L. We've got a six-month "cooling off" period to get thorough for Ds in my state. I've given my L some settlement parameters in hopes that the Ls can collaborate on something reasonable so this step in the process is resolved so I have some confidence about future living arrangements, spending power, etc. soon.
This weekend, going with D13 to see my nephew's game. I've got a new computer that I hope is the first component of a small business I'd like to build so I'll be setting that up. All in all, I feel like I'm still in a good spot.
Things have been relatively quiet until yesterday. W abruptly asked if I might be interested in revisiting counseling/therapy. I said I wasn't sure and I've been increasingly at peace with getting a D. W struggled to explain her reasoning for the sudden interest in revisiting counseling. Maybe a temperature check? I've been active in spending a mix of time with close friends, family, D13, and on my own doing several enjoyable things. I've attended a few celebrations, concerns, wine tastings, and D13s sporting events while trying to sketch out a small business plan.
I asked for some time to think about it. W suggested that, if I was open to it, perhaps each of us could identify 2-to 3 potential counselors to consider. I nodded and left the conversation there.
It is interesting because overnight I've been thinking more about how unattractive the behaviors that W had been engaging in have become to me. I realized my feelings of attraction to W had significantly dipped after the last few months.
For those who may not have time to go back and re-read my history, we faced several, common marital issues. This is my 2nd time DBing. Over the last 4-5 years, I've busted my tail to be responsive to fixing things I was doing that contributed to half of what got us to near D the first time around. Our former MC and my ongoing IC validated my efforts. I'd been feeling an increasing sense of closure as each day passed and though there are months left to go in the D process.
W hasn't reciprocated and that is a large part of why I'm skeptical about her ability to make and maintain positive changes. Still, in the spirit of MWD's writings, I tend to be anti-divorce unless there several things are present (physical or mental abuse, drugs/alcohol, specific mental health challenges, etc.). So, I'm assessing if W's mental health challenge is likely to continue to sabotage the chance for progress. I've not completely fallen out of love, and also believe D13 is one of many good reasons to try to repair things if that is genuinely possible. I don't want to lose my personal "hard-won gains" as we say and refuse to go back to much of what our old marriage looked like. I do feel like a prize at this point for the right partner.
And, I continue to appreciate this community. It truly provides me with a valued outlet. Helping and being helped. Be well, everyone.
Things have been relatively quiet until yesterday. W abruptly asked if I might be interested in revisiting counseling/therapy. I said I wasn't sure and I've been increasingly at peace with getting a D. W struggled to explain her reasoning for the sudden interest in revisiting counseling. Maybe a temperature check? I've been active in spending a mix of time with close friends, family, D13, and on my own doing several enjoyable things. I've attended a few celebrations, concerns, wine tastings, and D13s sporting events while trying to sketch out a small business plan.
Whether its a temp check or a waffling of emotions from your w matters not to what you are doing. You just stay detached and GAL like a mad man. Continue to let your w figure out her sh!t.
Originally Posted by MrP
I asked for some time to think about it. W suggested that, if I was open to it, perhaps each of us could identify 2-to 3 potential counselors to consider. I nodded and left the conversation there.
I know you were caught of guard - but IMHO - let her find the counselor. It would show motivation on her part.
Originally Posted by MrP
It is interesting because overnight I've been thinking more about how unattractive the behaviors that W had been engaging in have become to me. I realized my feelings of attraction to W had significantly dipped after the last few months.
This is actually the sweet rewards on detaching. The rose colored glasses come off and we can see our spouse for who they truly are in this present time. And interestingly enough - it comes with a sense of peace about it where you can still love your spouse... but not like them at the moment. You no longer get mad about the rollercoaster ride. You just don't buy the ticket.
Originally Posted by MrP
For those who may not have time to go back and re-read my history, we faced several, common marital issues. This is my 2nd time DBing. Over the last 4-5 years, I've busted my tail to be responsive to fixing things I was doing that contributed to half of what got us to near D the first time around. Our former MC and my ongoing IC validated my efforts. I'd been feeling an increasing sense of closure as each day passed and though there are months left to go in the D process.
W hasn't reciprocated and that is a large part of why I'm skeptical about her ability to make and maintain positive changes. Still, in the spirit of MWD's writings, I tend to be anti-divorce unless there several things are present (physical or mental abuse, drugs/alcohol, specific mental health challenges, etc.). So, I'm assessing if W's mental health challenge is likely to continue to sabotage the chance for progress. I've not completely fallen out of love, and also believe D13 is one of many good reasons to try to repair things if that is genuinely possible. I don't want to lose my personal "hard-won gains" as we say and refuse to go back to much of what our old marriage looked like. I do feel like a prize at this point for the right partner.
I would continue being skeptical. Past actions dictate future ones... until they don't. You won't have to guess if your w wants to reconcile. It will be abundantly clear to YOU.
Until then keep on keeping on.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
It is interesting because overnight I've been thinking more about how unattractive the behaviors that W had been engaging in have become to me. I realized my feelings of attraction to W had significantly dipped after the last few months.
I've often read here and elsewhere that when you're in a relationship that is some form of codependent or otherwise not healthy, and then you do the work to change yourself and leave behind your contribution to that dynamic, you find yourself in this position. No surprise to see you writing this after all you've done, and how patient you've been.
Thanks Valeska and Maturin. V, I did as you said and waited for W to send along potential therapists. I sent her my short list several days later. I'll leave it to her to initiate a follow-up conversation.
M that sounds spot on. I went out with a male friend from high school who relocated home. W made a few remarks about our going out on a weeknight. It was a wine-tasting and mingling event and W commented on the "mingling" part. I was looking forward to the food, wine, and company of an old friend. W's comments weren't questions so I opted not to respond. The wine selections were "meh" but it was great to catch up. I'm looking forward to having my friend back in the area and expect we'll get together at least once a month.
Otherwise, I'm doing some interior home repair work since temps are a bit too cold to get rolling outside. Also, with trying to make healthier meals, I'm putting some extra effort into planning out meals for the week. COVID left me with some ongoing challenges related to fatigue that I'm determined to beat with exercise, nutrition, and quality rest. Back to that grind for today!
Hi all! I hope you're doing well. I've been swamped at work and have not had a ton of time to check in here.
In addition to work, I'm doing several things to GAL. I thoroughly cleaned out the garage which had accumulated a tone of empty boxes, old area rugs, and all the things that can pile up in a garage. I'm also trying to clean up my paper and digital files to reduce some complexity in life. Plus, since it is something you can visibly see quick results from, it is a good way to build some initiative up to tackle bigger issues. I've also started to make more time to read books I've accumulated over the years. Lastly, I've been getting out with family and friends regularly with another outing with college friends coming up this Friday.
W sent me her list of potential counselors. I sent mine back. W was a bit put off that insurance doesn't cover marital counseling. I've just let this topic sit in limbo since W initiated the discussion.
We discussed updating our family budget for the remaining time we had together. I shared with W that several new expenses, combined with record levels of inflation, led to significant increases in our expenses last year. W got angry that I wouldn't just cover these overages because I make more than double what she makes. I reiterated that we agreed to split expenses in proportion of our salaries to overall income and are supposed to maintain the status quo until the D is resolved. This practice has been status quo.
W said she'd have to talk with her L about this (likely meaning L will tell her to seek more in our financial settlement). I stated that it is W's right to talk with her attorney and that I can't force her to add anything to our family account. I further stated that I wanted to be transparent about our expenses and, to me, it is unfair for me to solely absorb an increase in our shared expenses. I ended the conversation by saying that I was going to increase my contributions to our family account, consistent with what we'd long ago agreed on and what has been our long-standing practice.
Phew. This conversation led me to start thinking about getting back to working on my boundaries for common relationships (at work, family, friends, in relationships), etc. and I'm genuinely looking forward to tackling some self-improvement work in that space. I know it will be beneficial and can become a valuable skill to teach D13 earlier in life since it isn't something you'll find in most schools' curricula.
Have a good week everyone. I hope to be more active out here in catching up on your situations and offering some feedback.
A big well done to the declutterring. It is amazing how much stuff one accumulates over the years.
Originally Posted by MrP
W sent me her list of potential counselors. I sent mine back. W was a bit put off that insurance doesn't cover marital counseling. I've just let this topic sit in limbo since W initiated the discussion.
Perfect. Continue to let her lead this. She initiated the counsellor idea/topic. When someone does the heavy lifting of finding, arranging, etc, they might actually put forth effort and take it seriously. It’s a better chance than if you did the effort. Kind of making her work for it, without placing boulders in the path. Also, don’t be afraid to veto a proposed counsellor if you are not comfortable with them.
Originally Posted by MrP
I reiterated that we agreed to split expenses in proportion of our salaries to overall income and are supposed to maintain the status quo until the D is resolved.
Good. You didn’t get dragged into her baiting.
Ah, accountability and responsibility. They really don’t like that.
Holding her accountable to the agreed upon terms is perfectly fine. And it is a good thing for her to feel the sting from her choices.
Originally Posted by MrP
Phew. This conversation led me to start thinking about getting back to working on my boundaries for common relationships (at work, family, friends, in relationships), etc. and I'm genuinely looking forward to tackling some self-improvement work in that space. I know it will be beneficial and can become a valuable skill to teach D13 earlier in life since it isn't something you'll find in most schools' curricula.
Boundaries, self worth, resilience, self reliance, self respect, are excellent tenets to instil in your daughter (and of course yourself).
My youngest son works many hours on his university and research and he sees how precious the few hours for friends and family are. We were talking about XW/Mom’s latest round of frantic texting and then her lashing out at him. He relayed his philosophy and how he deals with her and other problem people.
“I know what my time is worth, and if someone starts to waste it - we’re done, they can go.”
I hope your week is good as well. My week is starting as the tail end of a blizzard blows itself out. Once the 80 km/hr wind die down, I’ll have to remove the two foot high snow drifts that are blocking the lane, sideways, deck, dog pen, etc. And to think, yesterday my yard was bare grass. Still, it’s a great day over here.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks D and R2C. Interesting twist on the counselor front. W now believes it may be best for her to resume individual counseling and for me to attend some of those sessions if I'm willing. I'm supportive of this because the last MC we saw told me in a private session that until W deals with some past trauma issues, it would be difficult for our marriage to make progress. As DNJ suggests, I continue to let W shoulder this work.
Also, W sent me a message letting me know that she adjusted her contributions to our family account after all. I'd updated mine two days earlier and didn't let her know because, to me, it was the right thing to do and consistent with our past practice. Perhaps W's L told her she could just recoup it in any D settlement if we get through that process. The sun will rise tomorrow either way so that's all the thought I'm going to give that topic.
DNJ, the garage is an organized masterpiece. A good hard snow like you described can still be as much of a beautiful thing to see as a burden to shovel! We went from being covered in snow to nothing but our bare grass again. I probably need to drop the first round of fertilizer this weekend. Darn global warming! And, DNJ, I love your son's approach. There is an internet meme that talks about being surprised people can cut others out of their life so easily and the caption says "Me" under a picture of a man holding an exceptionally large and long knife. I've had to similarly cut toxic family and friends out of our lives and agree, they are free to go.
R2C, we just did this exact thing with mediator choices. I'm hopeful will settle on our own before having to pay Ls and a mediator to sit there for hours at their respective hourly rates. But, fate will unwind as it must and I'll do the best I can with what I can control. This is the way, after all!
Hi all. Just here to note a few interesting developments. First, W has punted back to me to pick either a new marital counselor or an individual counselor for her. I've yet to respond. Seems like I should respectfully reply that these tasks seem best left to her.
Also, my bday is approaching and it is a "milestone". W continues to ask me what I want to do. I've deflected the initial two requests. Today, W asked if I wanted even wanted her to attend. I said, "I leave that to her to decide". This was a bit more of a reflexive or reactive response because I've got many people asking me what I want to do (and I'm not a "Hey let's all celebrate me and give me attention" kind of person).
I had been thinking about telling W that I'd rather she not attend. I want to be surrounded by people who love me, care for me, and truly want to celebrate with me. A pending D doesn't, to me, align with my desired bday experience. I want pictures and memories to be positive ones. Perhaps I need to revisit this conversation with W and indicate that, after further thought, I think it best that my family and immediate friends only attend.
As always, I appreciate your thoughts. Have a great night. P
Sounds like you are being passive aggressive and trying to punish her. Why not include her and show her what she’ll be missing? These are things you should be doing while trying to reconcile with an unenthusiastic WAW.
50 years is quite a milestone! I hope you have a wonderful celebration.
Originally Posted by MrP
my bday is approaching and it is a "milestone". W continues to ask me what I want to do. I've deflected the initial two requests. Today, W asked if I wanted even wanted her to attend.
It likely wouldn’t hurt your situation to speak with her about your upcoming birthday and the day’s itinerary. Yes, deflect conversations so not to get embroiled in an argument or some such. However, that deflecting is more to buy yourself time to get emotionally settled and organized and therefore to better speak rationally. It’s not to deflect indefinitely. Direct question, give her direct answer.
“Oh I plan to hang out with family (specify by name Mom, Dad, kids, etc) and friends (names again). Nothing carved in stone yet. Maybe we’ll go bowling. Would you be interested in joining in?”
Time and space. No pressure. And invite them to some family events with no expectation of their attendance or not.
Can you handle such a day? Having W attend? I suspect you can. So respond, and invite her, and let her do the heavy lifting by agreeing or not agreeing to attend.
It’s subtle, you don’t decide for her. Which is what she trying to get you to do. Let her own her choice.
You will enjoy your birthday either way. You are healed pretty well methinks. If you were not, I’d suggest differently.
Originally Posted by MrP
W has punted back to me to pick either a new marital counselor or an individual counselor for her. I've yet to respond. Seems like I should respectfully reply that these tasks seem best left to her.
I think this is another conversation to be had. Validate her apparent hesitancy to choose or find counsellors. And “kindly” hold her accountable.
You’ve mentioned, and it seems like, W’s confidence in her path is wavering. Those whispers of doubt speaking in her ear.
A big thing, they test the LBS to see if they can be, could be, accepted and forgiven. This is also them seeing if they themselves can forgive themself. Hence, the apparent hesitancy or fence sitting or delaying by her. Other feelings are stirring within her.
W’s interest in your birthday, her pushing the D and its process more onto you, seem to be a “test” of sorts. It’s different than a baiting emotional temp check. Remember, look to her actions, not so much her words. Remain kind and cordial, focusing on you and kids, moving forward, and allowing her to catch up. That last one takes some purposeful effort - allowing her to catch up. Not placing boulders in her path, and not paving it either.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks, Boat. You hit the nail on the head in terms of what I worry about doing and don't intend to do. I'm trying to balance detachment and upholding boundaries for my well-being with the core ideas behind DBing related to exploring a potential shift towards R, piecing, etc. if this truly has the potential to move in that direction.
Likewise, thanks DnJ. I did just as you suggested and let W decide and she chose to join us. I agree that this feels different than a temperature check. As a reminder, W has social anxiety issues and accompanying issues can include avoidance, difficulty making decisions, and more challenges. We also are slated for mediation soon and our Ls have suggested that our next court date in early summer could be an official D date if we have a settlement together by then. So, I wonder what counseling/therapy can achieve in this short timeframe. I feel some concern that revisiting W's marital concerns could make the situation worse in terms of firing W up as we head into trying to settle.
When we went through this ~5 years ago, our counselor at the time told me several things at my last visit:
1) W indicated that I'd become the "perfect husband" 2) Our marriage would struggle to move forward until W dealt with past trauma 3) Most women that come into her (the counselor's office) "would kill to have a partner like you (me)".
I'm still a work in progress and am far from perfect. It's hard not to wonder if both D13 and I may be better off if the D moves forward given the lack of substantial effort on W's part. I appreciate that she *may* be doing the best she can. I just feel some mental exhaustion trying to juggle both the near-term, impending potential of a D with putting more effort back into what may become an initial repair attempt.
Phew. Feels good to just type that out. In any event, I do plan to validate her feelings and to try to gently maintain accountability for selecting a new therapist.
Again, much appreciated Boat and D, as well as those just reading along. I hope you get some benefit from my sharing my situation.
I have been following your story and am grateful for your insights. It looks like you have done wonders in turning your life around.
Keep it up and keep posting. It is helpful to me as well to push myself when I have a down day. Not lose hope, keep up patience and consistency in my actions.
Any thoughts you have on my situation on occasion would be appreciated. You are much further along and have faced a number of the things that are still in the fog of uncertainty for me.
Happy Friday, all. Things are pretty much moving along slow and easy. Talked with a potential therapist today who does both couples counseling and discernment counseling. Told her that I'm open to either and that it seems it might be best to start with discernment to figure out if couples is even worth it for me. This therapist is talking with W next week.
W picked another therapist and we'll do a preview session with that late next week or early the following week.
My L asked if she should follow up with W's L on some items missing from the docs they submitted, not wanting to rock the boat related to counseling. I told L to do her thing: the D should follow its path and the counseling/therapy its own.
Otherwise, I'm enjoying the college basketball tournament, helping a friend move, picking up some new clothes, and some home improvement projects. I forgot how much I missed just focusing on things like this - living in the moment as they say. I also ran across a quote that I thought was quite timely and possibly helpful for others in the group:
Sometimes the greatest act of letting go is letting the person learn their own lessons. Allowing someone to sit in their struggles and suffering without saving the day is what will not only teach them lessons, it will leave them with an understanding of how to apply them.
I hope you find it as useful of a reminder as it's been for me. Cheers!
Good luck in the process Mr P. Having spent so much time in your predicament just remember that it takes a lot of strength and fortitude to fight through it and show a positive path for your daughter . She will be grateful in the later years and will give you an overwhelming sense of satisfaction that despite everything you still managed to create guidance and a kind heart to her.
Thanks, Catman19. My daughter and I have a good relationship. She confides in me, we talk openly, and I try to be her biggest fan (while still being a parent vs. trying to be a "friend" or "cool dad"). I speak positively to her about W, actively listen to what D13 has to say, and reassure her that irrespective of what happens, she and I will be OK. I regularly check-in with her. W and I put D13 front and center in decisions where that is appropriate. Lots of family also offer D13 regular support and love. I appreciate the reminder to keep doing all these things and more!
Good morning, great people in this DB forum. I hope you're doing as well as possible. Work has been crazy so between that and juggling prep for both marital counseling and D mediation, I've not made time to check in or post.
Things are going well. I've kept up GALing, working out, and balancing detachment with positively approaching our upcoming resumption of counseling. D13 is handling things well, regularly checking in with me about the situation (since W is less forthcoming). D13 has a good therapist, caring grandparents, and supportive friends.
Some leadership changes at work are also boding well for me in terms of opportunities to step up which would be great timing. I continue to feel quite at peace about the potential outcomes of my current DB effort.
Hope to post more this weekend. Hang in there to those of you at an earlier point in the process or struggling to find some hope. You have to do what is in your control to try and boost your happiness.
Last edited by DnJ; 04/05/2402:36 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Thanks, D. The timing would be good for a positive career change. I feel a bit taken for granted at work (and, admittedly, as I contemplate mediation, in this marriage too LOL).
Counseling starts next week so I'm interested to see what value can come from that.
The weekend was great. With all the sporting events taking place right now, I'm in heaven. A close friend and I got together three times last week - the most we've probably seen each other in a single week in years.
Workouts seem to be paying off too. A belt size slimmer. Muscles are starting to remember a time when we could work out more often.
Home repairs/improvements continue. Can't hurt me either way and keeps me busy. Plus, the satisfaction of a job well done is not to be underestimated.
Had our counseling appointment yesterday. Overall, it felt like a productive discussion.
W brought up a good deal of her historical concerns (not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair, and a smattering of other issues) and now with MLC and menopause not being interested in sex.
The counselor asked why come to counseling at this point with D looming. W said it was because I didn't to divorce. When the counselor turned to me, I clarified that 1) W asked me a month ago about trying counseling again and 2) I've come to accept that we may reconcile or D and am OK with either outcome. If we can reconcile, I'm on board with trying. Further, if the only reason W wants counseling is because she feels I don't want to D, we probably shouldn't be doing counseling.
W struggled to tell the counselor what she meant by not feeling like I put W first. The only example shared involved my mother and a struggle between them around how we celebrate Mother's day. For years, we tried having my mom, MIL, SIL and, W celebrate together. W felt like she never got to be "The Mom". I'd asked what that would look like and W really couldn't say. I offered suggestions like "Do you want to go away for the weekend? Should we just tell everyone we're doing our own thing?" and even said "I'm going to do X" to which she historically responded "Well, I want to see why my mom (MIL to MrP) wants to do first...." So I told the counselor I feel stuck in a bit of a loop.
Regarding money, I make double what W does. Before we got married, we agreed to split our budget in proportion to our income. I cover 70-80% of our expenses; W the rest. As time passed, W felt like this was unfair (because I still have a surplus from not being a spender). I've offered to revisit our budget or pool money (as of 6-7 years ago). I've tried to set up time for us to work through it. W doesn't like talking about money, has social anxiety, and just avoids the discussion. Hard to solve something when one party just wants to complain and not do the work. W somewhat acknowledged the mixed messaging here.
We covered some additional ground about what we want to get out of counseling. I said W is really driving the show because we've got mediation in a month and the court was pushing for the D to be done in about 2 months. W wants to go back for more counseling and is talking with her L today about options to delay/postpone the D.
Another point of recap...the first time W filed for D in 2018/19, I put in a ton of DB work to the point that W told our counselor at the time that I'd "become the perfect husband". Before that, I'd describe our issues as common solvable ones described by John Gottman in his well-researched books. W has high social anxiety issues, like is an avoidant attachment style, and a confessed perfectionist. I'm not perfect, but admittedly I've increasingly felt like these issues and some past trauma/abuse that W suffered are at the core of our relationship at this point. A prior MC went so far as to tell me that our marraige won't move forward until W deals with this past trauma.
I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation. Thoughts appreciated. Right now, I'm still a believer in MWDs philosophies about D not being a real solution. Just a bit tired of the amount of mental effort (and impact of physical wellness) with this counseling, mediation, and possible D all coming to a head right now. Phew. Time to stop. Thanks for listening. Be well, all.
I kind of get the feel for the shape of it, but ... it may help to define: What parts felt productive, to what end?
Originally Posted by MrP
not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair
These feel like WAS reoccurring themes, especially after many years and perhaps complacency that comes with it. My W pointed out that although I would do things for the family, I would more rarely do things for her alone. Times when I would deliberately exclude everyone else. It seems all Ws compete in some way with their MIL. As far as money, my W says now I was always hard to talk to about it. From my perspective I almost never said no to any request. I just made it happen though she could see the stress it caused me. I think I should have said NO much more often.
Are they really root issues? Or just things more easily talked about or easily identified? Seized on justifications to walk away?
Originally Posted by MrP
I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation.
I considered then rejected MC because my W hasn’t ever really wanted to try since BD1. Well before I found MWD’s books and this forum, I recognized it takes two to be useful. That said, everything I read here shows that which MC you have and their approach makes a tremendous difference. I think my reference standard is MWD own thread here:
Originally Posted by Michele
Hi Everyone, Joanne has agreed to work on her marriage with a little bit of my help. I want to do this with her because a, I think it will be helpful and b, everyone reading this will understand the nuts and bolts of being solution-oriented
Hey Grok. Thanks for the comments. It was productive because the counselor did tease out of my W a few areas where W (for the first time) acknowledged her contributions to problems. For example, telling me that we together as parents should take a specific stand on a topic with our daughter and then, when our daughter pressures W, W caves in or sets me up to be the bad guy ("Ask your father...") so the "team" crumbles pretty quickly. And, just the fact that W agreed to come back for a 2nd visit and said "I like this MC" are huge steps for my W.
Definitely WASing here and some MLCing (gray hair noticing, tattoo wanting, etc.). Also, given W's social anxiety and past trauma, my sense is W just believes "life" doesn't work out her way and neither will this....and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point. I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.
You're right. The MC like any therapist can make a huge difference and is a very personal choice. Tough to have the time, money, and stamina to weed through them or restart the process if you get the wrong one. We'll see how this goes and thanks for the thread reference. I agree that is a good benchmark for what to look for in a good counselor. Be well!
and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point.
I've been -ruminating- over John Gray's Mars/Venus books interpretation of this. Paraphrased:
~When a woman is stressed she feels a need to talk about her feelings and ALL the possible problems that are associated. No priorities. Not concerned with solutions. Seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood. Through exploring her feelings she finds awareness of what is really bothering her. The more talk and exploration, the better they feel. If not feeling heard and understood, she may expand further, even to other peoples problems.
Just as a man is fulfilled through working out the intricate details of solving a problem, a woman is fulfilled through talking about the details of her problems~
Originally Posted by MrP
I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.
This year I'm wondering if this isn't a version of testing. i.e. Can you call me on my BS when I am off the rails? Are you stronger than me like I want you to be?
g
H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
Hey Grok and all. Things have been busy at work so I'm playing catch-up. Grok, your reference to John Gray is spot on here. I agree there may also be some "testing" happening here.
Our new MC is doing a good job of pulling some things out of W that she's been unwilling to let surface or acknowledge. I've been happy with our progress. W told her L to postpone mediation. She is talking more often about continuing to work things out, and doing a better job of clearly and directly telling me what she wants or needs. She's also acknowledged that she's not spoken up in the past when she should've.
It is almost like she needed the MC to help show her a way back from filing for D. We aren't out of the woods yet. I continue to practice DBing, GALing, and balance the application of Sandi's rules with being responsive to W's positive efforts. It is tough to strike the right balance and, more days than not, I feel good about my words and actions under the circumstances.
Anyway, I hope that is helpful for others out there to hear. Keep working, applying the lessons and experiences in our community, and asking for help. Positive outcomes will happen.
Just checking back in after some heavy work at the "day job". Things have been cruising along here in Limboland. I'm balancing GALing with being responsive to W's outreach related to MC "assigned" activities, recreating some fun/humor in our relationship, and seemingly everything in our home deciding it was time for repairs/maintenance at once!
Over Mother's Day, I opted to spend it with W, D14, and my in-laws. My mother was unhappy (again if you've continued following my sitch; W and my mother can get to be at odds over where I spend the actual day). My IC and our MC advised that W should come first. Even marital guru John Gottman advises the same in his books. So, I feel like I've been on good, objective ground in that choice. W was pleased that I put her first. Mom...isn't talking for now and that too is understandable to some extent.
W's attorney is pressuring her to make up her mind. W postponed mediation once and seems to be a bit panicky about the L's pressure. She's also worried about continued conflict with my mother. I told her that I see why she feels that way. I gently suggested that it was a good thing she married me and not my mom...trying to balance some humor without invalidating how W feels. We've got another MC appt this week so we'll see what that brings.
I've got two concerns coming up that I'm attending with friends and a whole host of the usual summer graduation parties to attend plus a wedding or two. The nicer weather helps me want to get out of the house and accomplish more, whether fitness-related or just outdoor maintenance work. I may have to swing over to the local brewery tonight to try out their new releases.
Be well, everyone. Keep plugging away at strategies recommended and in MWDs various books. I know how it can feel terrible and like a long path at times. I recall thinking "How will any of this help?" or "But this is the complete opposite of what I feel I should do or want to do". And, keep in mind that you're working on YOURSELF most of all. MWD's book on changing your life and everyone in it is steeped in lots of honest self-work. It means confronting things about yourself that you may not want to surface or like to admit. But, that is where the real work lies. It has made me much more thoughtful about my intentions, and more careful in my word choice and actions, and that work continues. Take care!
It is almost like she needed the MC to help show her a way back from filing for D.
Since the WW/WAS cannot trust US at this point, they need someone outside they will take advise from. Someone that can show them there are other possibilities than the only solution they can conceive. In your case, it seems the MC is filling that role.
Originally Posted by MrP
I'm balancing ... and seemingly everything in our home deciding it was time for repairs/maintenance at once!
I hear you. Why does trouble all come at once? Something about being tested...? Balancing gets difficult. This past year for me to fix - Upstairs shower leaking to lower ceiling. All three toilet seals start leaking. Water heater fails. Pipes in walls start rattling as if they broke loose. Washing machine fails. HVAC drain clogs three times in the middle of the night. Multiple fire alarms fail...in the night of course. Multiple light switches fail. Sprinklers break, needing to be dug up and replaced. Kitchen faucet fails. Dishwasher fails needs parts replaced. W's vehicle tires need full replacement a year early because of unrepairable flats, AC fails twice under warranty. My vehicle wheel speed sensor fails, water pump fails, starts mild pull to one side with a "clunk", needs new tires. I'm sure there was more...
Originally Posted by MrP
W's attorney is pressuring her to make up her mind. W postponed mediation once and seems to be a bit panicky about the L's pressure.
L's incentives are misaligned with hers...otherwise known as the "principal-agent problem." Differing interests and information asymmetry. How to have W feel she is able to start/stop/pause that D process any time she d@mm well pleases? L is her employee. There is no time limit to this stuff.
The Ws and their feeling like they have to satisfy a L or Mediator is/was odd to me. I respect them for their expertise and will strongly consider their advise. I don't feel I HAVE to do what they say or suggest. I am in charge of me. My W however, felt like she HAD to follow through with every piece of advise or suggestion the Mediator said. I asked her why once. "G, she might be upset with me if I don't. And we HAVE to get along with her." This felt foreign to me. The Mediator is a hired expert there to advise. The Mediator might be upset, and we might not get along. The Mediator is a respected professional and is accomplished at doing the task either way.
Originally Posted by MrP
...W should come first... ... Over Mother's Day, I opted to spend it with W, D14, and my in-laws. My mother was unhappy ... She's also worried about continued conflict with my mother. I told her that I see why she feels that way. I gently suggested that it was a good thing she married me and not my mom...trying to balance some humor without invalidating how W feels.
An age-old problem. I think the W has to FEEL, not just know both sides of - "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife" Of course, you can't MAKE someone feel...so...the dilemma. This last year my W expressed feelings that I always agreed/sided with my parents when some decision or other had to be made. A lot of that was only in her head. Informed by, yes, my approach to much of life was made by growing up under my parents of course. I did not ask or consult with my parents though. If fact, this year my parents expressed that they always felt I had joined W's family after marriage since I stopped talking to them about us.
Originally Posted by MrP
I may have to swing over to the local brewery tonight to try out their new releases.
This has proven to be a great GAL for me. No/Low pressure enjoyable time. Sometimes talk with people. Sometimes kids join me for a bit as mine is family friendly. Games of Connect Four or Sorry with S12 and D17!
Originally Posted by MrP
Be well, everyone. Keep plugging away ... working on YOURSELF most of all.
The work continues. In between fixing things!
g
H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
Hey Grok. Lots of great stuff in your post. Thanks. It is great to know someone else out there has similar experiences. Love the religious quote too. John Gottman says when conflict erupts between the wife and mother-in-law, the only way out of this dilemma is for the husband to side with his wife.
A prior therapist told my W that "nobody has power over you unless you give it away". What you're saying about feelings resonates with me for that reason. It helped me think about how that, while we can't control every situation, we can control our reaction in response to it. And, I think that is also in alignment with what MWD preaches in Divorce Busting, Divorce Remedy, and an earlier book, Changer Your Life and Everyone In It. Much like you describe, I don't get the sense that my W or my mom are especially happy, though W acknowledges that she's not angry/upset with me. My mother is being quite immature about the situation and ignoring W now. We're a conversation away from estrangement if she can't maintain at least a respectful and productive relationship with W.
All that said, these experiences gave me a TON of energy. I've tackled some challenging work projects and issues. Our landscaping is looking like the finest in the neighborhood. Anyone need a room painted? I'm your guy!
And, during our last conversation, W told me that she asked her attorney to have the D dismissed so that we can focus on counseling. No guarantee we won't be discussing a D again. This is one of two possible outcomes from divorce-busting, and one MWD believes in. The work continues.
I know there were times early on when I came to this forum feeling quite helpless. Once more I say THANK YOU, to all those who've offered advice, moral support, and other perspectives. I hope I'm offering some of the same for others (being a lighthouse of sorts - right?).
Good afternoon DB community. I wanted to pop in, check on everyone to see if I might be able to offer some support, and confirm that our D has been dismissed. We continue to have positive interactions, are solving "light" problems together and head-on. I got the first card in a long time with a "Love" in the signature area. We've been on several mini-dates and feel a bit of the original spark we had when we originally began dating. I feel strongly that we found a solid counselor who has the skills to guide us both along better than past MCs. Still lots of piecing to be done to be sure. I continue to practice DBing where appropriate and not backsliding from these hard won gains. I'm hopeful that, for those of you with relationships that can be salvaged, my continued updates may help with strategies, motivation, and whatever else you may need to get through one day at a time. Take care, P.
I am glad to read that your situation is turning around. Working together, solving problems together, a willingness towards MC, dating, etc, all good signs.
I agree, do not let go those hard-earned gains. DB, be your best self, be patient, and so on. Continue to be MrP2.0.
W will likely be moving slower than you. After all, she and you walked different paths. Piecing: Dig for patience. W is moving in a positive direction. Good to see you letting her proceed at her pace.
Originally Posted by MrP
I know there were times early on when I came to this forum feeling quite helpless. Once more I say THANK YOU, to all those who've offered advice, moral support, and other perspectives. I hope I'm offering some of the same for others (being a lighthouse of sorts - right?).
Yes, you are offering sage insights and are a lighthouse. Keep shining, here and in real life.
Have a wonderful day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
R2C - I agree 100%. I continue to do this work because I'm confident it helps me be a better person, live more consistently with reasonable values, and is the example I want to provide to D14. Your thoughtful words and those of others on this board remain invaluable. I appreciate how generously people offer their feedback and with positive intentions. At different points in life, I lost sight of that growth and improvement (it's hard! it takes stamina!) and am committed to not letting that happen again.
W will likely be moving slower than you. After all, she and you walked different paths. Piecing: Dig for patience. W is moving in a positive direction. Good to see you letting her proceed at her pace.
D
As always, thanks DnJ. People like you, R2C, SteveLW, job, Boat, Valeska, and more than I can probably recognize right now offer your time and support very graciously. For many of us, it comes at moments when we can feel very alone, are receiving often biased feedback from friends/family, and we're at our best when our decisions need to be. Once more, thanks for all you do.
Great point about W moving at a slower pace. It is definitely the case that I'm working to meet her where she is as she is ready and willing. I've still got plans with friends, time with D14, some solid "me" time, and more on the books at the same time. My IC has been available to meet again so we're doing some work on mental health hygiene for myself. I've also picked up about 20 lbs since the pandemic/March 2020 which I'm trying to chip away at. Continuing this work helps me extend patience to W. It feels different (in a good way) than after DB round 1. W appears to be fully "back in the game" of busting the potential for a D.
Great point about W moving at a slower pace. It is definitely the case that I'm working to meet her where she is as she is ready and willing. I've still got plans with friends, time with D14, some solid "me" time, and more on the books at the same time. My IC has been available to meet again so we're doing some work on mental health hygiene for myself. I've also picked up about 20 lbs since the pandemic/March 2020 which I'm trying to chip away at. Continuing this work helps me extend patience to W. It feels different (in a good way) than after DB round 1. W appears to be fully "back in the game" of busting the potential for a D.
I'm happy to hear you are still taking care of YOU. So many folks forget to in the early stages of piecing - they tend to focus too much back on the marriage. This tends to backfire as the only way we can really know if our spouse's change is true is to just keep on our journey and see if they want to join us on the path.
Couples counseling can be a slow go at it. As long as you see your wife creating and utilizing new coping mechanisms (versus saying she wants a divorce when she hits emotional capacity) than progress is being made.
You're doing great! Keep it up.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Thanks, Valeska. A nice side effect of continuing to make these behaviors my new habits means that, for the most part, they happen more automatically and naturally than when one starts the DB process. I recall how hard it was initially not to try to quickly and directly do what I felt I had to to quell my anxieties. Athletes talk about a point at which whatever their "game" is slows down for them and that is the closest way I can describe how I feel now when challenges arise. I don't feel a need to rush or make snap choices. Taking my time to note my feelings, stay calm, and work through what I've learned these last few years occurs more easily. It is the reward for having the stamina to stick with the process AND focus on your self-worth and development. I'm keeping MWDs books nearby, plus my notes and a copy of The Solo Partner which I've also found valuable. The work continues!
The last 7 pages of this thread - what an uplifting read!
MrP, you’re an inspiration to the board.
Your strengths are you ability to not respond with emotion, not trying to manipulate or control anything .. and gently putting her balls back in her court. Every time she hits the ball to your side of the tennis net you just gently lob it back and let her deal with it.
To me, that’s a fundamental concept of DBing. You manage your problems, and she has to manage hers.
I also think indifference is a key to reconciliation. When you started saying “I’m not sure if I want to save this or try counselling” it made it very clear that you were a strong, proud man and she would have to manage her side of the fence.
I think if you’d jumped excitedly at delaying the divorce and starting counselling, you’d have come across weak and unattractive. People never want or value that which they can obtain easily.
You’re a great example of the success of deep personal improvement and following DB principles.
Hi, all. Sorry for a delay in posting. We went away on a family vacation and then the board seemed to be down for a few days due to website certificate/security issues.
Thanks, Kind for those words. It can still be a struggle at times to take what "feels" like an easier path.....just say yes to delaying the D.....just eagerly say yes to counseling......accept all blame heaped on you....don't take a hard look at one's contributions. The work remains challenging and the benefits of sticking to it are comparably worth it to me.
MC is going very well. We are fortunate to have found a therapist who we both like. She's been very gentle and, I think, providing my W with some individual therapy under the cover of our MC. I can see her drawing on the work of MWD and also Sue Johnson, a guru on emotionally focused therapy. We've both been following through on our assignments, spending more time relaxing together and re-igniting some of the spark from before our D14 was born and we began to "divide and conquer" chores, childcare, and other household work - putting it before maintenance of our marriage. I'm quite happy at how responsive and appreciative W is being towards me and returning that in kind.
This was the most relaxing family vacation in a long while. The three of us, my in-laws, and some close friends of W were in a fairly remote, rural city on a large lake. W and I enjoyed some alone time. At one point, W (who planned this trip expecting we'd be divorced by now) stopped me to say "I'm really happy that you're here". While we continue to build a "new" and better version of our relationship, I'm mindful of not back-sliding. I remind myself of things fellow DBers have said, directly to me or in other posts. Sandy's rules and a few other key ideas remain in my notes on my phone when I need a refresher.
When this board was down, I felt terrible about losing all this wonderful, accumulated knowledge. Losing our anonymous but tight community. I felt bad about being away for so long - know that often happens as our situations resolve themselves....one way or another. I'm glad to be back! And my goal is to keep sharing updates, positive or not, and to try to pay forward the help I received.
Watching the Olympics reminds me of how much practice it takes to perform at our best...under any conditions. DBing is not different. Like an apprentice becomes a journeyperson becomes a master craftsperson, we have to keep working on ourselves. Doing better, sometimes even in a relentless, incremental way. I'm sure a bit of luck helps too.
Be well, everyone. I look forward to catching up on others' situations and offering assistance where I can.
Hi MrP. I'm catching up from site being down and reading through your thread. Happy to read about developments in your sitch - the trials and tribulations over the long 5 years seem to have paid off - you are a different (better) person for you and your daughter and as a bonus, W appears to be peaking out of the tunnel more and seeing things in a different light. I just stop in to say that I'm happy for you and will keep you in my prayers as I follow along. Thank you for keeping hope alive for LBSs who are in a similar path.
Thanks, MamaG. And, you're welcome. Being a LBS still haunts me. It nags in the back of my head if ever I think W is angry or disappointed with me in the slightest. Thankfully, new habits and confidence help me power through those feelings and remember how I got to this point - and remind me what I need to continue to do to make more progress. I look forward to catching up on your situation. All of our situations are hard. Many are unfair. But we are the people most responsible and in control of our happiness. If we don't put the work in, who else will?
Hi, all. I hope each of you is doing as well as possible. W and I continue on a positive path of reconciliation. Finally finding an effective MC (for both of us) makes an incredible difference. Our MC is pushing me to think differently about how I used to turn away from W when she would be critical or when her anxiety might lead to a variety of impulsive, angry actions. W has been owning up to her contributions more than ever before in our M. MC has a very gentle way of asking W how well W's thoughts and actions had been serving her in our M, previous relationships, and other parts of life. W is also doing an incredible job of clearly and specifically communicating what she wants or needs. In general, nothing's been undoable or unreasonable. In a recent session when W acknowledge how sending me mixed messages about things was unfair, I couldn't help but tear up at the acknowledgement. W said she was over-relying on me to be the solution to all kinds of issues that might pop up for her....and over-blaming me for being the cause of negative things that happen to W. I've also been working on putting clear boundaries in place with my mom (who readers may recall was upset as I've been putting W first more often over the last 5 years). While mom is still bothered, she seems to be slowly accepting that this is how it is.
We still have moments. I may feel a flash of anger about something W says or does. I can see W's response behind her eyes is a step away from yelling at or criticizing me. But, 99.9% I see us both truly working to make this marriage what we both want. It has only been two months since W dismissed the D filing so I don't want to be naive about that. Sustained improvement is a longer-term thing. And, continuing to GAL has been so helpful for my own self-care. I attended a concert with my college roommate, singing way too much and staying out way too late. I've also knocked out 8-10 projects that have been on my to-do list for over a year.
Sitting down and making a list of all the things in our control that we want to get done is a powerful thing in my experience. Closing bank accounts that are no longer needed. Fixing a screen. Going for a bike ride. Having a favorite meal alone. Donating old clothes. Getting a massage. You name it. Talk about staying busy and getting some small, confidence-building accomplishments under your belt - THIS is really good stuff. I encourage you to jot down 3-5 things (non-relationship related) that you want or need to do in the next two weeks and GET THEM DONE! Let us know how it goes! As Sandi's rules say WRT our relationships - be patient....very patient....too.
Great post MrP, I'm very happy for the outcomes you're experiencing and how you're handling things. I love the call to action at the end of your post - nothing in life or DB'ing is more important that taking action! And small steps beget larger ones. Keep it up, your patience and self awareness are great examples.
Welcome back, M, and I'm so glad to read your update. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, you caught my "call to action" to try and help people jump-start their GAL work. It really is important for your personal growth, sanity, and even attractiveness (not to seem so desperately accessible and waiting for one's spouse to do anything).
Good evening, all. I'm dropping in to share that progress continues to be positive. Today W got back her wedding rings after some re-sizing and cleaning. She's proudly wearing them again. I received some unexpected thank yous for taking care of several things around our home. Our D14 is thriving at school and sports. We had a family wedding (that I originally wasn't going to attend on W's side of the family) and D14 was quite happy to snap pics of her mom and dad, together on the dance floor. We've had some date nights that have been fun, and playful, and rebuild our sense of closeness. W suggested we may need to see our MC less which I'm reluctant to do so soon.
We still have to tackle some issues related to in-laws, budgeting, and chores. But, I feel more confident that I've got a true partner in solving things....together.
I'll admit that there have been a few things that have frustrated or angered me. I'm more inclined now to have the feelings and not let them drive my reactions and behavior. I take the time to choose my words carefully and re-frame things into requests for more information or careful expressions of my concerns, the impact, and my hopes for solutions going forward.
I hope to share more specific info in my next update but am a bit tired this evening from a busy day at work. Have a good night and please take good care of yourselves. This is hard work to do if we're not at our best.
Hard to believe it has been ~ 2 months since my last update. Once more, I am happy to share that things continue to go well. Our MC is excellent. She is very fair and I suspect is also working specifically on W's anxiety issues and helping to resolve past trauma indirectly under the cover of our counseling. D14 is thriving at school in terms of grades, athletics, socially, and overall well-being. We both are making an effort to be clearer with what we need or want. We're having omre future-focused conversations (about retirement, home improvements, travel, etc.) than we've had in many years. W is still struggling when she thinks about interactiing with my mother as the holidays approach. MC is pushing W on why W continues to hang on to past, negative interactions and even suggested having my mother join a session to resolve whatever is between them (competition of for my attention - I guess that might be a different way of being the "prize"). W seems to be softening up a bit as the holidays approach and acknowledges she needs to speak up more as my SIL does by comparison (and my mom seems to back off/down when she crosses a boundary). Time will tell.
I'm continuing to focus on my well-being at the same time. All the DB work, and much of what MWD says in Change Your Life, has been beneficial across my life. Work, friendships, and other interactions all seem to be going more positively than I can recall before really putting this work in and re-shaping my habits. I'm also trying to help D14, my team, and other friends around me learn some of the MWD and solutions-based practices discussed here.
To those of you dealing with a recent bomb drop, facing a partner with a MLC, dealing with infidelity or mental health challenges, I want to emphasize the need to STAY THE COURSE. One way or the other, it will pay off. You can definitely emerge from the experience as an improved version and an increasingly better version of you can be. I recall how hopeless things felt (both times I've faced a potential D). With the pandemic, global crises, the election here in the U.S. - and all the usual challenges we can face in our daily lives, I recognize how overwhelming things may have gotten for you. Don't give up on yourself. This community remains available to support you. The wonderful author of these books and sponsor of this board....who many of us may never meet....continues to keep this website alive and accessible. Take advantage of it!
I hope to be more present on the board offering whatever help I can now that things are slowing down a bit as the holidays approach. I look forward to catching up with longer-term members, meeting new ones, and trying to pay forward the generosity that continues to exist here in our little corner of the web. Until next time....Mr P.
Good evening. I felt like I was due to update my situation and not just drop in to comment on others. W and I continue going to MC and just hit a milestone: we're going to meet with our MC bi-monthly and primarily to make sure we don't lose our "hard won gains" in this process. We are better at communicating. We are more thoughtful with one another. We are taking our challenges one at a time and working through them as a team to a better conclusion. Our MC continues to offer very positive feedback on our progress.
Now, we're only 7-8 months past my W withdrawing D papers. I'd consider us still piecing at this point and don't want to do a touchdown dance just yet. However, it is a milestone that feels genuine and I think worth sharing for those of you who may be looking for a bit of hope (if you want to save your M). D15 is also visibly happy that mom and dad remain together and seem to be falling back in love; I hope we're showing her how a secure relationship should work, how to forgive, and how to health together and by taking care of yourself too.
At the same time, I'm maintaining the other "new" habits I developed by following MWD's recommendations and those of many people in this group, whether via direct feedback or pouring over so many helpful threads. This site and community - you - have become quite a special part of my life.
If you've jumped into the forum and not read MWDs actual books, do pick them up. Mark them up. Write down important notes. Practice! It really helped me rebuild my self-esteem and confidence to stick with it and see steady results not unlike a sound diet plan.
Have a good weekend. For those of you feeling anxious, scared, hopeless, frustrated or any of the host of feelings one can experience related to D, please hang in there. Take small steps to stabilize things for YOU. We'll be here to help! All my best, MrP
It has been longer than I thought since my last post! Things continue to go well between W and me. Our MC is excellent and, though we only have monthly check-ins, I feel our new (and better) marital habits are paying off. W communicates much more clearly about what she wants/needs. I continue to listen attentively and carefully to ascertain what W's needs are in the moment. W told our MC that she wasn't sure if we'd have made it without her as our MC, and I tend to agree.
At the same time, I am ensuring that I'm clear about my expectations and boundaries. When W (going through menopause) attempts to be discourteous towards me, I politely call out the behavior and, if it continues, advise W that I'm available to talk respectfully at any time and that the moment doesn't seem right. I ask W how I can best support her as she continues to navigate menopause, and am mindful of what is/isn't working for us daily so that I continue to do more of what works and less of what doesn't work. For example, I know W is on a kick for fixing up various things inside and outside of the house. So, I'm working to stay ahead of her "to-do" list, or asking what she'd like us to prioritize tackling next. In the evenings, I know W needs to decompress with a good book and have carved out that same time for catching up on my favorite podcasts. I continue to GAL with close friends, and W is taking an interest in joining us for certain activities again.
My mother unexpectedly passed away. For those who followed my journey, you may recall that W and my mom had a difficult relationship, mostly do to my mother's behavior. As sad as losing a parent can be, my observation is that W is turning more towards me than before - both to offer support and continue piecing our rebooted relationship together. For example, W wants us to set aside time to work through a few activities in a couples counseling book that is specifically tailored around one or both partners having anxiety issues. W is also wanting to talk more about how we might envision our retirement lifestyle to be and asking about things we could do once we cross that threshold in several years.
This forum continues to be a great resource. It reminds me of how bad things felt at one point and keeps me working to not lose my hard-won gains or backslide. It reminds me to maintain my boundaries, work on myself, continuously work on being attractive (in both actions and appearance), and to similarly work on being an expert on all things related to W. And, D15 has also been thriving as the spectre of potentially divorced parents gets smaller and smaller.
I don't write this to gloat or suggest it was easy to get to this point. I've said before and will say again that it takes intention, stamina, and thoughtfulness to improve YOURSELF to then see if your spouse responds with interest in R or if you've achieved confidence in your self-value such that you recognize you will be fine no matter the outcome from attempting to DB. I look forward to catching up on others' situations and trying to help how I might.
Inspiring P. Such profound goodness that has not been easy at all and you have laid out your dedicated focus on improvement. Looking back, how did you keep faith and follow the path and plan. Your MC sounds really good for W. It is the 2 of you however that are piecing together and your leadership strength and lighthousing has been exemplary.
Thanks, Rock. Keeping the faith, following the path, and planning = not easy. Often on this board, we talk about DBing being counterintuitive. I felt at times like I was trying to swim against the current of MWDs recommendations and those of members of the DB community here. Little by little, I just embraced doing what was counterintuitive. For example, I stop pursuing W. I pivoted my focus on my well-being and that of D15. I stuck to Sandi's guidance to others over time until the old behaviors that contributed to my half or our marital conflict steadily got replaced by better ones. Not as simple as it sounds. As many of you can attest, your heart and mind want to do one thing, while MWD and members of this forum (whose main interest is to offer less biased advice than people we know) are often recommending 180-degree different paths. And, you're right, a good MC makes a great deal of difference, but you need both parties to trust each other and want to put in the work.
It has been longer than I thought since my last post! Things continue to go well between W and me. Our MC is excellent and, though we only have monthly check-ins, I feel our new (and better) marital habits are paying off.
Welcome back! And well done!
Originally Posted by MrP
W communicates much more clearly about what she wants/needs. I continue to listen attentively and carefully to ascertain what W's needs are in the moment.
What occurs to me is advice on interacting on emotion-based communications. i.e. Interpreting through the filter - "I feel" -fill in the statement- "right now." Is this something that applies here?
Originally Posted by MrP
I ask W how I can best support her as she continues to navigate menopause, and am mindful of what is/isn't working for us daily so that I continue to do more of what works and less of what doesn't work.
I see you are NOT fixing HER problems for her. Rather, offering support as she chooses...
Originally Posted by MrP
My mother unexpectedly passed away.
Condolences. This is an ongoing fear of mine...
Originally Posted by MrP
reminds me to maintain my boundaries, work on myself, continuously work on being attractive (in both actions and appearance), and to similarly work on being an expert on all things related to W.
YES! Things I see now that I lost focus on through the difficulties of mid-life ... and so did XW. Now? well... working on those first two.
Originally Posted by MrP
you need both parties to trust each other and want to put in the work
That key starting point. If the WAS is willing though...
Future’s Calling - Apollo LTD
Hello human Hello suffering It's hard to reconcile what is And the way it was meant to be But something's about to givе Standing on the brink Call it a breakthrough Call it a rescuе Call it your destiny
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H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
Quick update since it has been a while. I'm listening to D15 and W laugh from D's room. We seem to be putting one happy day after another together again. My bday and father's day cards from W are signed with "love" again. Both of us are putting in the work to rebuild a more secure-functioning relationship. We get a tune-up with our MC at least once per month and MC also reminds us about our progress. There are moments where flashes of the old relationship emerge, usually out of anger or stress. However, we both seem more interested in not letting things escalate, practicing better self-management, and applying new behaviors to work together to solve things.
I'm not posting to brag. I am posting to give others hope. Hope that if you do put in the effort, follow through on what MWD writes, listen to others in this community, etc. you can come back from some pretty hopeless situations if that is truly best for YOU.
It is wonderful to see W (and you) continuing to invest and commit to your new relationship. It sounds like the monthly tune-ups are solidifying and fostering a healthy partnership and healthy strategies for those inevitable disagreements that pop up.
I’d like to submit your story to the Another Divorce Busted! forum. If you’re interested please post a summary of your situation and I’ll get it published.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
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