I've been taken advantage of for years and the only path forward now is in detachment.
How do you plan to detach in a house with a party animal who has zero respect for your boundaries?
Originally Posted by Maturin
If she wants to preserve the MR she is going to have to work for it and even then I'm not sure I want to go through the next 40 years with this person.
I promise you she will not live like this for the next 40 years.
How do you plan to detach in a house with a party animal who has zero respect for your boundaries?
I could use advice here. I am guessing the point of the question is to get me thinking about:
1. If I am truly serious about detaching, then I should be exploring separate living arrangements. 2. If my boundaries have been violated repeatedly then I am married to someone who has zero respect for me
Originally Posted by Boat14
I promise you she will not live like this for the next 40 years.
Point taken. But even if it's another 6 months, I'm over it.
Trying to understand sitch a bit more -- did she ever express interest in doing things with you post-bomb? In going out post-bomb? In being a party animal with you? In having weekend outings or dates with you? Baby sitter? Or no effort to connect/reconcile on her end and just party cougar mode as if you didnt exist?
Let's say she ever expressed interest in something like that, think about your plans would be if the two of you ever were to start again in the future.
Also, what are you doing to better yourself physically and how are things in that department? Working out? New clothes? Physically building yourself back up if you have been complacent there often reaps huge dividends emotionally. And she'll like it too (Frank Thomas)
Originally Posted by Maturin
1. If I am truly serious about detaching, then I should be exploring separate living arrangements.
Do you all mutually own the house or rent it? There are legal consequences vis-a-vis property and custody of leaving the home, so I would not do that without consulting your family law attorney. When's the last time you checked in with them? They may have good ideas on how to achieve separateness without compromising yourself.
Originally Posted by Marturin
2. If my boundaries have been violated repeatedly then I am married to someone who has zero respect for me
Or that there is something else more compelling to her than whatever modicum of respect she has for you (Alcohol Addiction (I'm serious here -- is it possible she has a drinking problem)? OM? Fantasy fun/MLC escape from 3 kids and adulting? EA w/female friend meaning she gets all her connection from friends if she cant get it from you). But the more she chooses the other over you with no consequence, then the less respect you keep.
Or maybe she is unaware where your boundaries are because they are not adequately enforced. Telling someone you have a boundary does not mean you have a boundary. If you told your neighbor there was a non-negotiable, immovable, and IMPENETRABLE 100 foot wall covered with spikes and hot lava between your driveways, so she BETTER not take it as a shortcut. But she can still freely drive her car back and forth across your 'imaginary wall', is there a wall there?
How likely is she to stop taking the shortcut if you look the other way every time she takes it. Cause I mean you already told her there was a wall there. So why hasn't she stopped?
3. How about -- if I violate my own boundaries repeatedly, then I am not respecting myself?
You wrote earlier that one of your boundaries is, "I will not be in a relationship with someone who is acting single." Seems she is still acting single if she is going out each weekend without ever inviting you. But, you still seem to be in a relationship with her? You are legally married. You share a home and frequently a bed. You have shared finances. What else do you share?
I don't marry, live in the same home, sleep in the same bed, or buy drinks for people I am not pursuing a relationship with. When you progressively enforce boundaries, you go from the mildest withdrawals of yourself to the most profound as the boundary keeps being violated.
I don't know where you are in your progressive boundary matrix or how you see these hierarchically
Filing for divorce No Contact U Moving out W moving out separate bedrooms (no shared marital bed) not being sexually intimate limiting one-on-one time limiting family time not sharing your feelings/emotional intimacy splitting finances no shared holidays no shared birthday celebrations others? what else valuable about yourself do you keep freely giving away to her
4. Re: W saying DONT BE CONTROLLING. LET ME LIVE MY LIFE. She is right. With boundaries, you dont tell her to do or not do anything. She can party all day and all night if she wants.
You just let her know if she does that, then you just wont be able to abide it anymore and that you will have to progressively withdraw yourself -- until you are completely out. Cause you cant be in a relationship with someone who acts single. Doesnt work for you. But, she can keep doing whatever she wants. Just without you -- in all senses. Where is your real fence? Tend it.
She still has parts of you. even though you told her there was a wall there.
And she keeps driving back and forth.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
I just want to enthusiastically second what Bustorama says above. When someone violates a boundary, and depending on how severe the violation is, you have to take some kind of action along the lines of the progressive boundary list (which is great). All you can control is you AND it needs to be something substantial. To me, you don't sound like you're ready to D and, if that is accurate, then perhaps you're at a point where you engage in minimal discussion (only about kids and household administrative priorities). I'm also dealing with detaching while under the same roof. I treat W like an acquaintance at this point: minimal conversation not initiated by me, minimal details shared about myself and what I'm up to, often in another room doing something I enjoy, getting out and about when possible. I expect that can be tough when she continues to put you on the hook for caring for your kids. As a child of divorced parents, I can tell you that even young kids will remember which parent was there for them so make the most of the time while you can.
And, tell your W with some advance notice that you need to go out for a bit and ask that she be home for them. Don't make it a negotiation. Or, get a sitter or family member if need be so that she can't argue you're trying to control her by making her watch her own children. Ridiculous? Yes. But, this is why you'll sometimes here people refer to spouses behaving in these ways as having been taken over by aliens.
It stinks and I feel for you. I re-read the detachment and boundaries threads quite a bit, trying to continuously get better at both. If you haven't, I encourage you to spend some time there and toss out ideas for us to react to if that helps. We're here to help.
I'm also dealing with detaching while under the same roof. I treat W like an acquaintance at this point: minimal conversation not initiated by me, minimal details shared about myself and what I'm up to, often in another room doing something I enjoy, getting out and about when possible. I expect that can be tough when she continues to put you on the hook for caring for your kids. As a child of divorced parents, I can tell you that even young kids will remember which parent was there for them so make the most of the time while you can.
And, tell your W with some advance notice that you need to go out for a bit and ask that she be home for them. Don't make it a negotiation.
MrP is right on here. This is the recipe I use and trust me, while it may seem difficult at first, if you do this regularly, you will feel better about yourself and less concerned about her. I am at the point where, when I see her and minimally interact with her, I think, "Hmmmm, I used to have a history with someone who looked sort of like this person here..."
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
Bust et.al., thank you so much for the depth and thoughtfulness of your replies. There is so much to unpack and respond with, and I will. Right now I am logging in to describe last night which I believe to be a typical representation of my MR right now and hopefully helpful in understanding my sitch.
W went to a party and came home early, before 10. I had a great night w the kids and all of us were asleep when she got home. W is drunk, wakes me up bc she lost her keys and demanded my help in getting them back. Based on the advice I've read/rec'd here I did not engage, said she could deal with it tomorrow. She then started in with a very angsty, angry diatribe on how I am her problem, everyone is ganging up on her, she feels like she is going crazy, etc. I validated ("That sounds very tough; I know you are going through a lot right now") and told her I would be happy to discuss with her in the morning. My IC recommends no R talk while she is drunk.
This angers her more. She gets on top of me to "get my attention" so to speak and tries to initiate with kissing etc. I don't take the bait and playfully tell her its time to go to bed. She gets more angry and tells me no one wants to sleep with me, that she isn't attracted to me, that she doesn't care if I sleep with other people, and more. I'll leave the details out but suffice to say she's never been quite as cruel as she was last night. I stayed positive, told her I am happy to talk but things are now very complicated. Her response: "we're not getting D, the only way I agree is if I keep the house and 100% custody". She tells me I am overreacting to the A, that she didn't even like the AP, etc.
This morning I did not bring any of it up. No request to talk about the R, etc. I left her to solve her lost keys problem and will spend the rest of the weekend with friends.
Now, boundaries question. It goes without saying that I will not be in a MR or any R with someone who talks down to me the way she did last night. I would like to tell her, "Listen, I won't be spoken to the way you talked to me last night." But as others have said, boundaries are actions. So is the right move to just say nothing, and next time leave the bed to sleep elsewhere? I am trying to walk the path of positive, confident, and disengaged husband.
Hey Maturin - Very well done IHMO. That is a great example of DBing. You stayed calm, held the line, and survived the evening without taking any bait. You did walk the path of a positive, confident, and disengaged "person" (to take it a step further). You held the boundary as well as you could. You withheld "you" from her: negative reactions, taking the bait, and "feeding her cake". I don't think you necessarily have to sleep in another room given this was a success to me. Now, if you feel differently, you may say something like "I dislike what occurred the other night and felt disrespected. I hope in the future that won't happen again". Note the lack of use of the word "you" in there so that you might sidestep direct provocation. Or "If what happens the other night happens again, I will move to another room" (hopefully with a door that locks though that might not stop someone who is 1) inebriated and 2) determined). Again, you did great. Stories like these help me feel more confident when I'm facing something similar so I am grateful for you sharing yours.
Bust et.al., thank you so much for the depth and thoughtfulness of your replies. There is so much to unpack and respond with, and I will. Right now I am logging in to describe last night which I believe to be a typical representation of my MR right now and hopefully helpful in understanding my sitch.
W went to a party and came home early, before 10. I had a great night w the kids and all of us were asleep when she got home. W is drunk, wakes me up bc she lost her keys and demanded my help in getting them back. Based on the advice I've read/rec'd here I did not engage, said she could deal with it tomorrow. She then started in with a very angsty, angry diatribe on how I am her problem, everyone is ganging up on her, she feels like she is going crazy, etc. I validated ("That sounds very tough; I know you are going through a lot right now") and told her I would be happy to discuss with her in the morning. My IC recommends no R talk while she is drunk.
This angers her more. She gets on top of me to "get my attention" so to speak and tries to initiate with kissing etc. I don't take the bait and playfully tell her its time to go to bed. She gets more angry and tells me no one wants to sleep with me, that she isn't attracted to me, that she doesn't care if I sleep with other people, and more. I'll leave the details out but suffice to say she's never been quite as cruel as she was last night. I stayed positive, told her I am happy to talk but things are now very complicated. Her response: "we're not getting D, the only way I agree is if I keep the house and 100% custody". She tells me I am overreacting to the A, that she didn't even like the AP, etc.
This morning I did not bring any of it up. No request to talk about the R, etc. I left her to solve her lost keys problem and will spend the rest of the weekend with friends.
Now, boundaries question. It goes without saying that I will not be in a MR or any R with someone who talks down to me the way she did last night. I would like to tell her, "Listen, I won't be spoken to the way you talked to me last night." But as others have said, boundaries are actions. So is the right move to just say nothing, and next time leave the bed to sleep elsewhere? I am trying to walk the path of positive, confident, and disengaged husband.
You don't have to necessarily sleep somewhere else. But a simple "I won't be spoken to that way" then walking away is the best. It demonstrates that you will leave rather than be spoken to like that.
In 90% of cases when your return the behavior will be improved.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Trying to understand sitch a bit more -- did she ever express interest in doing things with you post-bomb? In going out post-bomb? In being a party animal with you? In having weekend outings or dates with you? Baby sitter? Or no effort to connect/reconcile on her end and just party cougar mode as if you didnt exist?
For a couple of weeks post bomb she was very sad, sorry, and showed signs of wanting to connect. However at the time I told her D was happening, and I was very angry. At one point she did schedule a sitter so we could attend a party together, but I declined. We then slipped into a pattern of not speaking for weeks and she became more angry. Eventually we got to where we are now, where she is going out again and feeling more like a victim. I actually think the last couple weeks of me being positive, confident and happy around her (and not mopey) has impacted her, and it's why she was so cruel on Friday. She is testing me more/harder.
Originally Posted by bustorama
Also, what are you doing to better yourself physically and how are things in that department? Working out? New clothes? Physically building yourself back up if you have been complacent there often reaps huge dividends emotionally. And she'll like it too (Frank Thomas)
I am in very good physical shape and have been our entire relationship. I spend time lifting, running, hiking, etc. In fact one of the justifications she gave for her A was that when S2 was young I was out training for half marathons, and she felt that was unfair. The self-improvement I am focused on is emotional: not being needy, not getting my sense of value from my MR, etc. I've been working on that for 2 years and do feel I've made a lot of progress, though there is more work to be done.
Originally Posted by bustorama
Do you all mutually own the house or rent it? There are legal consequences vis-a-vis property and custody of leaving the home, so I would not do that without consulting your family law attorney. When's the last time you checked in with them? They may have good ideas on how to achieve separateness without compromising yourself.
We own, with ~50% equity at this point. Have not checked in w the attorney since OCt, will do that.
Originally Posted by bustorama
Or that there is something else more compelling to her than whatever modicum of respect she has for you (Alcohol Addiction (I'm serious here -- is it possible she has a drinking problem)? OM? Fantasy fun/MLC escape from 3 kids and adulting? EA w/female friend meaning she gets all her connection from friends if she cant get it from you). But the more she chooses the other over you with no consequence, then the less respect you keep.
Her alcohol problem is significant. Not a daily drinker but certainly a binge drinker and her identity is closely tied to being the "party girl". She has often told me she felt she was losing herself to being just a wife and mom and the party was the escape. Don't think there is OM at the moment but I didn't think there was OM 3 years ago either. Regardless she has developed an attitude that H=boring/uptight/controlling and the fun is elsewhere.
Originally Posted by bustorama
4. Re: W saying DONT BE CONTROLLING. LET ME LIVE MY LIFE. She is right. With boundaries, you dont tell her to do or not do anything. She can party all day and all night if she wants.
You just let her know if she does that, then you just wont be able to abide it anymore and that you will have to progressively withdraw yourself -- until you are completely out. Cause you cant be in a relationship with someone who acts single. Doesnt work for you. But, she can keep doing whatever she wants. Just without you -- in all senses. Where is your real fence? Tend it.
I have been using progressive boundaries for ~6 months, so even before DB or DDay. We have not gone out together in a very long time as a result, because I told her previously that the way she spoke to me was not ok (a few time while out she disrespectfully told me to go home and relieve the sitter which had previously not been agreed). And this is where I become frustrated: the more I remove my time and attention using progressive boundaries, the more distance is created and the less connection of any kind. She does not seem to care that I'm not around while she's drinking, but when she gets home she always wants to wake me up and spew the anger.
W is a very stubborn person on the surface but I know she is sad and scared deep down. But I'm also concerned that the more I withdraw the more she will enjoy the space, taking the attitude of "whatever, forget him". This is the risk of the DB process but also the only path for someone in my shoes.
I spent time GAL over the weekend but found myself pretty down in the dumps last night (I didn't let the W see this, I was having fun w my kids and playing some music). I know this road will get harder before it gets easier and there are going to be a lot of bad days in the meantime. My W just seems like a totally different person than she was five years ago: no soft side, only a hard edge all the time. From an outsider's standpoint I'm sure it seems crazy to want to bust this D/save the marriage because anyone who witnessed the way she spoke to me Friday would tell me to run for the hills, but it's my family.
W just told me that some friends invited us to dinner next week and she asked if I wanted to come, and should she get a sitter.
My intuition is to say no. I want to tell her, "That sounds fun and I would love to go, but I won't spend time with someone who spoke to me the way you did on Friday." How does that sound? I can see her reaction in my mind now: she'll bristle, tell me I'm too uptight, roll her eyes, and probably say something mean.
And another question: in order to bust a D it would seem someone in my situation needs to re-attract my W while she also comes to a place of remorse strong enough to begin reconciling. A big dynamic would be spending time together so you can allow for attraction to emerge again. But right now there is so much disrespect that I can't bring myself to spend time with her, it doesn't seem appropriate. But the order should be to re-establish respect and then attraction, correct? Is this what is meant by being patient with the DB process?
