Not Lost Anymore!Being the best version of ME!

[MrP]

I agree with Card. It is unlikely a salary boost (or your absence) will solve things for H.

I've had two counselors say (about my W) "I expect W will continue to unhappy and won't have you to blame" if she follows through with D and "It can be very difficult to get someone to look inwards at their contributions because of how destructive it can be to the self-image they are using to survive right now (essentially - their avoidance is so high, they just can't be honest with themselves about how much they've caused their own unhappiness)." Alien is a great way to describe it or perhaps a stranger because they no longer resemble the person we fell in love with in many cases. Imagine all you'll be able to do for yourself with the time you'll have free from these battles!

[Pattnee5]

I completely agree on all counts a job and an overseas “adventure”
Is not going to solve a single thing for H. He will continue to drink to numb his emotions and then loneliness will kick in. The loneliness of no longer having the daily contact with the kids or me. Or any human really. The novelty and shine of living abroad will wear off fairly quick. Kids and I will get busy moving on with our lives, kids won’t have the time or can be bothered calling dad as often ( let’s be honest we all know what teenagers are like). H will either bury himself in work and drink to numb the loneliness and emptiness or figure out some stuff. I have a feeling he will resist for a long time. I know H better than he knows himself. He’s running from his issues but also has something to “prove” to his family. His successful older siblings have always been held so high on a pedestal by his father so I think he has alot of father issues with expectations. But he can barely think like a 20 year old let alone see what he is doing. See how he is letting his dad and his sister influence him.
It’s very sad to sit on the outside and watch it all and see the clearer picture yet do nothing about it .
Don’t get me wrong because I know a lot of you are from America, I love visiting America and holidaying there, but living there is a whole new ballgame. They will work him to the absolute core. We are pretty lucky here in Australia

Card, as for me and how I will go? Well im prepared initially I am probably going to be extremely devastated the day he gets on that plane, the day that I sell and move out of this house we built.But im working alot within myself now to handle it. And I have the most amazing friends and family.But yes I think you are right I think once he has physically disappeared out of my life is when I will fully heal.my kids my friends my family bring me so much joy and happiness. Money and jobs and prestige mean nothing. At 42 I think I can still do sooooo much more amazing stuff, without an anchor dragging me back.

[Pattnee5]

Hey all
Just need a bit of advice here on what to say or handle something and if I am managing correctly. It may sound minor but I realised it must on some level affect me because I am still thinking about it. I am female though so we do take everything to heart all the time. Mind you this all happened a few days after the “storming out “ when I didn’t really give him much about his salary boost and he had his hissy fit.
H has made a few comments in conversation that insinuate that I can’t change and won’t change and any changes I make now are just temporary and I would revert back. He means this on alot of levels including on a sexual level because I made a really funny joke on the weekend that was a bit sexual after he said something that kind of set himself up for it. He laughed but then proceeded to tear me down saying “I would never do that”. Which isn’t true and I did say “I actually would and people can change ” . But he proceeded with the whole tearing me down making out I haven’t changed never will and people slip back to old ways etc. I just let it go and walked away as I knew he was going to start to get nasty. He had been drinking by this point so I knew nothing I said or did would stick. I knew his demons come out when he’s drinking.
But it really irks me because I always see the best in people and believe in people and believe anything is possible if you want it enough or want to change yourself enough. He has the mentality now of “people can’t change” .

I know I did the right thing walking away and disengaging in him when he is drinking. I know he is probably just projecting his own frustrations on me. However it’s hard sometimes to not stand up for yourself and let them drag you down with their skewed perception of you.especially when it was someone who believed in you. I feel so weak for not defending myself even though I know it would have played out bad. He was already 2 beers, 3 glasses of wine, and 1/4 bottle of vodka down by this stage. I think I’m more angry at myself for not defending myself. I feel weak for just biting my tongue all the time and disengaging. I know my truths. I know H is frustrated at himself at how he feels etc and retaliates by dragging me with him. He’s so adamant I haven’t changed as a person and can’t and wont( gosh he’s becoming his stubborn dad with his same stubborn negative mentality).
At least this won’t happen when he’s on the other side of the world

Weekend was good otherwise, despite H two moments of crapness. He tried to grovel with a coffee after his salary hissy fit where I didn’t really give him much but I declined it and he apologised for being triggered. I made myself pretty scarce that day and left the house if I knew he was coming over. Safe to say he’s had two “Magic moments” this weekend 😂what an absolute catch of a man. And yet I still believe in him and believe he can make his way through this.

I think back to months ago, this weekend would have ruined me with H magic moments. I would be a mess following them. It doesn’t even phase me now. Yes the words hurt a bit but nothing like before because before I would let him blame me and take it on board and really doubt and question myself. Now I know my truth and know he’s projecting his own feelings about himself.I am just the punching bag. But the punching back that doesn’t really respond or care much anymore

Did a long run over the weekend (that’s 4th run this week and really noticed huge improvements in my pace just from our lunch time trainings) had some girlfriends over and a great laugh and chat.Life is generally good even when people are trying to ruin it for me

[DnJ]

Hello Patt

H has made a few comments in conversation that insinuate that I can’t change and won’t change and any changes I make now are just temporary and I would revert back.

That’s a pretty common thought, and unfortunately lots of people do revert back. I know you realize, making changes for yourself better promotes permanence, than making them for one’s spouse.

But it really irks me because I always see the best in people and believe in people and believe anything is possible if you want it enough or want to change yourself enough.

You asked for advice on managing things correctly. Let’s say managing better. Right, wrong; correct, incorrect; positive, negative; things are usually more gray.

I think it’s better to consider removing the strikethrough bit from above. True, it’s valid. Yet such constrictions, and listing only two (there must be more ways, right?), promotes that belief with you. Change is possible. Believe that! Live that! The rest actually tears such a tenet down.

Why are you irked? Your beliefs and convictions do not require H to comply or believe in them.

Seeing the best in people is admirable. Do you believe people will do their best? Or do you believe people have good/better/best qualities within? Or do you believe that people can exhibit good qualities? There is an expectation that can slip in here. And unmet expectations lead to resentments, and those irksome times.

H’s insinuating. Sounds like he is projecting his feelings upon you. It’s also kind of a test.

Seeing the best, anything is possible:

What H is doing is positive good progress. He recognizes change. He even articulates change. I’m referring to the concept of change here. H sees it.

He also sees your changes. And he is questioning them. Are they permanent? Will she revert? Is this just manipulation? All his feelings, his path. All valid steps of his path.

In such questions, H is questioning himself.

Realize, H has an image in his mind, a crafted image, a justification; of you, him, and the situation; all of which is slowly being altered. Takes time.

He has the mentality now of “people can’t change” .

At the moment, this is his answer. No point arguing it with him. You and I could debate such, yet H still runs from a logical and rational discussion. He cannot yet handle opening the door on such big feelings.

And yet, do see the best in this. H articulated it. He stated where he is at. The first step in any change, in realizing where one presently is. Granted, H’s realization is a bit more in his subconscious right now.

One has to first be “people can’t change”. Then, “people won’t change”. Then, “people can change”. Then, one who realizes they can, it’s much more likely they will. Such an evolution from can’t to will is usually driven by consequences. Pain, hurt, sorrow, guilt, shame, and such. Change is most often prompted by one being uncomfortable. Can’t, won’t, can, will - each step taken usually begrudgingly.

I know H is frustrated at himself at how he feels etc and retaliates by dragging me with him.

H cannot drag you anywhere. You are dragging yourself there.

I feel so weak for not defending myself even though I know it would have played out bad.

I think I’m more angry at myself for not defending myself.

I feel weak for just biting my tongue all the time and disengaging.

I know my truths.

Do you believe your truths?

You are correct, engaging in some back and forth would have likely resulted in H stomping off in a huff. Why do you feel bad for not engaging?

I empathize with those weak feelings. There is a nice feedback when one lashes back, a momentary time of feeling quite powerful and strong. You can likely guess what I’m about to say . Feelings are fleeting. Those feeling of being strong get replaced with regret for taking such lashing out action/reaction.

It takes more strength to remain calm and at peace. A real inner strength. Near unshakable. An equanimity. Do you know what I speak of? You’ve felt that before, yes? Now, reinforce it. Believe it.

It’s a wonderful truth to live. And it does require altering of some previous predispositions and beliefs.

Strengthen that which serves, craft that which you aspire to, and discard or alter that which does not serve.

D

[Pattnee5]

Thanks D makes complete sense with what you are saying and so true the moments are fleeting. It certainly takes enormous strength to remain calm. I do believe my truths I also know who I am now. I think I had lost myself for quite a while mixed up in a relationship that really was not what it should be for the last few years. It’s nice to finally find myself in ways again. I don’t think they are as much change as they are parts of me that had gone missing or been dormant for a while.

I think H has a long way to go but you are so right he isn’t even remotely ready to open the door on big emotional talks. If he has started a conversation or anything remotely resembling a talk on feeling he jams up the walls come up he becomes incredibly awkward and shuts down and usually walks out. Change is all for me and only me. Sometimes we get sucked back into their drama but I do know that H opinion of me shouldn’t matter anymore. Thanks D for the words. I think H is a long way off anything or any progress here. Unfortunately I think unless his alcohol consumption changes he will forever be in the fog

[Kind18]

You played it really well Pattnee.

It’s very important that you recognised and disengaged from the conversation. SO MANY Newcomers to the site just don’t know how to walk away.

I get what you’re saying though… it must feel like you’re letting him get away with lies and excuses by just disengaging?

The reason he starts these arguments and attempts to draw you in - because what you are doing is working. He knows you are detached and won’t engage, so he’s trying to drag you back in with provocative statements like “I bet you wouldn’t xxxx”.

Take heart that he’s trying harder. It means he has noticed you’re becoming stronger.

Perhaps you need to reframe things so that it makes it feel like you’re not letting him get away with blatant lies.

Rather than “I’m not talking about this with you”, perhaps try:

“I’d explain why you’re wrong, but arguing with someone who is intoxicated is a fool’s errand.”

That allows you to make it clear that you don’t agree with what he’s saying, but also allows you to walk away from a conversation disaster waiting to happen. It also places the responsibility on him to sort out his alcoholism.

Also, remember that actions speak louder than words. If he’s saying “you would never do xxx in the bedroom” - buy a vibrator and leave it on your bedside table. Nothing says “Yes I would!” like someone who’s prepared to have a great time without him!

You did really well. Keep it up. There will be a lot more s**t sandwiches to swallow going forward.

[Pattnee5]

Thanks Kind. Good idea on the reframing and throwing in the drinking comment. He will absolutely hate that comment for sure. I’m not trying to hurt him but I know this pattern so well now.
If he despises me so so much I don’t know why he still wants to always be around me. Some days I wish he was one of these guys who completely vanished for a while.
Oh he knows I am more than happy to have a good time without him, both socially and with bedroom toys. I’ve even bought new lingerie and he’s noticed ( sober not drunk)
I think a lot of his projections are just his own insecurity and self issues that he isn’t conscious of at the moment. Maybe never will be
I’m prepared for the sandwiches coming. I am dreading the absolute emotional mess I will be when he gets on that plane for “ good” . It’s almost the door closing for good in my mind and I still held hope he would get himself together first
Oh well one day at a time I guess

[Kind18]

I am dreading the absolute emotional mess I will be when he gets on that plane for “ good” . It’s almost the door closing for good in my mind and I still held hope he would get himself together first
Oh well one day at a time I guess

Again, reframe this.

The chances that he wakes up before he goes OS is 0%. If you try and make him stay, you’re cementing that everything in his life is your fault.

Let him go with a smile and wave, and then when he gets there and discovers he’s still unhappy, he might have an epiphany.

Saying goodbye to him is the absolute best step forward towards reconciliation. Don’t see it as an ending, see it as a beginning.

Plus, it will allow you to start healing with him right out of the picture. You’re doing great with DBing, but once he’s OS you’ll really have a chance to thrive, work out who you are, and make changes just for you - rather than for him.

Him going to a new job OS may also be the catalyst for some change with his alcoholism.

Oh he knows I am more than happy to have a good time without him, both socially and with bedroom toys. I’ve even bought new lingerie and he’s noticed

Good! That’s how you DB. Keep buying more lingerie, but not to make him jealous - to make you happy. New fragrance. New kicks. New hair!

If he despises me so so much I don’t know why he still wants to always be around me.

Best not try to analyse that. If he wants to be around you so much, don’t give it to him. Keep going out when he hangs around. Be vague, mysterious, missing. Remember 180’s - what feels wrong, is often right.

[Pattnee5]

Thanks Kind yep this resonates alot with me right now. I 100% know he needs to go. As hard as that day will be I know I’ll be ok, and that is my new beginning. If he doesn’t he will resent me and hold it against me and blame me. He can’t fix himself or his life here he has made that blatantly obvious the last 10 months since BD where he has done nothing to help himself or his life other than move out, and start consuming more alcohol. He still looks every bit as miserable most days as he did 10 months ago, 18 months ago even. The drinking is getting worse. He is in the absolute depths of of the U shaped happiness curve and I reckon his may not be U shaped at all( but moreso a flatline now)

I do know this is what he needs. To live with the reality of his choices and not blame me for it. If he’s happier on his own from here forward well maybe I dodged a bullet as I can’t grow old and have a fulfilled like with an alcoholic gaming recluse. I am far too social
Reconciliation is a long way off if it even happens. He needs to make some serious changes too and really be invested and right now I can’t see him having any sort of motivation or strength. I have always been “glass half full” he is always “half empty”.

As for me, I keep pushing and trying to DB most days and 180 where I can. You are right, i am feeling a bit limited to really thriving as he is still around. I am excited and look forward to how I will grow and change once he leaves to sort his stuff out. I still feel I am not living to my fullest yet. But every single change and growth I have made has been for me. I don’t even give H a second thought. I love my new lingerie, organising outings without having to run it past anyone anything I do right now is for me and only me. I don’t even care if H knows or notices to be honest.
Running is going well( really well actually) lots of things coming up in the next few months I seem to have something on every weekend. Feel like my running is almost becoming addictive again, trying to get fitter and fitter and maybe knock over a half marathon again( or who knows maybe even try a full one )
I have also been roped in to playing a bit of ice hockey too haha. I have grown up extremely sporty playing alot of high levels but since having kids let a lot of the team sport go. My brother and some of his friends ( plus D14 who plays with him) have roped me in to scrimmage with them and even a friend from work is going to join ( her H also plays in the same scrimmage)
It certainly is going to make me laugh that’s for sure .
Life is generally good, I’m happy, I smile, I laugh alot, I enjoy every day. I still worry about H and his well-being, but I do know I can’t fix this or fix him. He may or may not ever fix himself.
All I know is day by day life gets good agai

[Sunflyer]

Oh he knows I am more than happy to have a good time without him, both socially and with bedroom toys. I’ve even bought new lingerie and he’s noticed ( sober not drunk)

Good for you. I say again...GOOD FOR YOU. Enjoy and whether he notices or not does not matter. If he does notice, maybe it gives him a few thoughts on what he is missing out on.

I think a lot of his projections are just his own insecurity and self issues that he isn’t conscious of at the moment. Maybe never will be

Yep.

I am dreading the absolute emotional mess I will be when he gets on that plane for “ good” . It’s almost the door closing for good in my mind and I still held hope he would get himself together first
Oh well one day at a time I guess

I have been thinking about my separation. I never thought I'd say this, but I am actually starting to look forward to it. I think frequently about being without her and starting the new chapter. If she feels her new boy toy will be the solution to all her problems, let her find out without me supporting her habit.