Not even sure where to start

[DnJ]

Good Morning dl

Boat and Thornton are spot on. Read their wise words several times.


Recall a DB mantra: Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do. W will tell you anything to get her plan sped along.

So not sure what to do at this point. She is pushing the D and lawyers. I'm going to hold her to going to counseling though. She said if I sign papers then she would do counseling.

You cannot hold her to go to counselling. Besides she will twist/use the counselling, like anything/everything else, as justification for her leaving and why things aren’t working out. Some purposefully failed counselling is pretty easy to roll into “well I tried, I guess it’s just not meant to be”.

You sign the paper if and when you want to. Or should. Is W proposing some awesome deal for you? Or did she just talk you out of your part of the commission?

She wasn't happy that I was getting some of the commission and said I shouldn't be. I told her that she suggested I get some of it when we talked and she said she only did that so it would be over on that debate.

Her actions do not align with her words. She said whatever she needed to, she lied!, to get you to stop the discussion. And she is doing that still with your talks about the future.

she said I have narcissist tendencies and gaslighting.

This from her, a gal who is bailing on her vows. She’s misleading you, in this and in her departure.

She asked how would I be able to handle it if she was dating another person. I told her that it would hurt right now but I could probably be okay with it eventually. She knows that would hurt me she said she isn't trying to be in any other relationships but she is the type of person who does enjoy being with someone and in a relationship.

She isn’t trying to be… but….

She knows that would hurt me… but…

Often the stuff after “but” is used to try to justify the stuff that proceeds it. This dialog assuages her guilt.

Only folks in an illicit relationship speak that way. If she was not engaged in an other relationship or flirting with one, she’d not speak like this, she’d not think like this.

asked me if I could rub her neck since it was tight and it helps. Told her of course.

Do you see who is actual gaslighting who here? She’s keeping you off kilter. You did look gaslighting up. Psychological manipulation through a variety of means. It will have one questioning their reality.

Focus on you. Embrace actives. Make changes. All for you! Any changes you decide to make must be for you, not some attempt to win her back.

The business side: Stop agreeing to her proposals in the here and now. Just listen and take her proposal to your lawyer for review and guidance. Better (for you) would be to turn all that back and forth over to your lawyer.

Get back up, dust off, and keep moving forward on the path. Give time and space. Detach. Let go.

D

[dleague]

DL you really should print off Sandis rules and start implementing them immediately to prevent yourself from digging a deeper hole you can never climb out of in the future. Be prepared for 2x4s that will hurt now but will help you in the long run.

Yea I agreed here 100%. Its been hard to stick to them for sure. ups and down and the pain is still new. Dont fully understand. And Im a detailed person so trying to make sense of it when I can even when I shouldnt be trying to at times. Normally Im good unless she is here and we are going through packing up the house to get it ready to sell.

When this is over trust me you will not want to be friends with her.

Quite possibly true. Considering where my life will even be. I plan to stick around this area for the short term due to my daughter trying to get some experience before she moves away. Honestly had considered moving away myself. FUlly remote job coming up now in 2 weeks. Making better money and will be debt free once all the dust settles. Thinking of somewhere nice in the Caribbean! haha. Just kind of hit the reset button. Was always our plan to travel in 2025. but I may be traveling solo at this point. Im sure it will take some time to get on with things and life and I plan on working on myself. We will still see each other some because we are splitting the dogs and we plan on letting them still be around each other because they are all they have known to each other. Plus if we are in the same area for the next year chances are we will probably run into each other. We have some of the same friends as well. Will be interesting.

Yes this is a very common theme. Being a man you probably do have some narcasisstic traits but that doesn't make you a narcissist.

Yea it was tough reading some of that but after digging deeper I realize I may not have the full on NPD or any deep levels. I feel like more surface type of level than anything.

You really need to try hard not to cry in front of her. Try to let that out when you are alone.

this was tough because this was probably the most vulnerable I have been in front of her like that. fully exposed. I didnt want to be but the emotions got the best of me at that time. Def in a sense helped me get over things slowly. Havent cried that much since then and have actually felt better since then. Def wont happen again!

She doesn't mean it. She is just saying it to get her way and you to agree with everything she wants and to do it when she wants.

yea I feel that way for sure at times. Like she is just saying things to keep me moving forward on things so she can get what she wants and away from me and on with the D.

Just about. DB is hard, especially in the beginning.

This is true!!! Hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life was going through this and trying to DB. the books should be coming tomorrow and I plan on diving in.

These conversations are NEVER good. What makes you think they are good? She is still full steam ahead on the D train.

yea she is pushing it for sure. CRazy thing is she is willing to pay for the Dissolution if I will go that route. Lawyer is on board and ready to start drafting documents up. She said if I dont file then she will. I have tried to get her to slow down on it but she is full steam like you said. So at this point why even try to delay the process? I feel like she made this decision and wants this so why keep trying to hold onto her and only irritating her by delaying it.

That's why you need to give her space.

Yea realizing that more every day. Hard though when we have to interact on this house selling part. Having to go through things to decide on who gets what. We have majority of it worked out but not smaller details. So just going to common rooms and going through stuff. Getting there. But hard when Im around her and all the memories pop back up and we are both talking about things. SHe is probably more focused than I am on getting it done. SHe has always been that person to just get stuff done. I am as well but emotional for me more right now. She said she has been having a hard time with the house and letting it go. but im screaming in my head "THIS WAS ALL YOU DECISION!!!"

Right now she is 100% convinced she is doing the right thing.

Yea agreed. She may realize it once she gets out. She is stubborn though and doesnt like to change her mind. Time will tell

Yep everyone on this baord has heard the same thing from friends.

Well first off you can't hold her to anything. Second off counseling would only make matters worse.

yea talked with a mutual friend of ours (his wife is my W boss and close friend). he reached out to check on me though. He thinks I should take her to Counseling to get her to reveal things that she is hiding. He thinks that she may be holding back the feeling of holding me back in my life since she said that last time we went through this. She may think she has to end this partially because she feels like she is holding me back from living my life and that may come out in Counseling. or even something else that she is holding back. Friends have all said this doesnt make sense and how fast she is pushing stuff as well.

Apparently not enough to make her stay.

100% agree here!!! not enough to make her stay. She said thats the part that hurt when she cut her dad out of her life was the memories that linger. And thats the part that will hurt with us and the life we built.

Yeah my spidey sense says there is another guy who will be at that Halloween party.

I dont feel this way. maybe your spidey sense is right though. I feel like this is last minute. I know the girl that is hosting it and the W said that she only offered because the people on her team were sad we werent doing ours and all bought their costumes. I know all the people on her team as well. friends with all of them. I honestly dont think there is OM involved. I feel like she has been involved with me for years and has been in a R for all of her 20's and half her 30's now and never got to really experience that "party" phase. She is supplementing her emotions by spending time with friends. that she wants to be "single" for a bit to not have anyone else to answer to or let know her plans or anything. Even though she does tell me her plans still about 95% of the time. Just my 2 cents there.

My thing is I need to GAL more. Hard thing is financially right now we are both strapped and spending money on house stuff and nothing else. So. trying to find ways to GAL without spending a ton of money. I want to go GAL myself on Saturday as well. Just brainstorming ideas at this point.

She wants to be with a man who makes her feel alive. You are not that man right now. You can be if you so choose but it will take a lot of work. Are you up for that challenge?

Def up for the challenge for improving myself. I know I havent been the man she has needed and I have been emotionally weak and drained for the last few years. Im sure that wore on her. I havent been alive myself the last few years. Been unhappy and depressed about things in my life and havent dealt with those things. I feel like this is my wake up call though now. For better or worse now at this point. I have things I need to focus on and work on myself. Im still lost on how to do those and what areas I feel like though. Im not sure how you address areas if you dont know or fully understand what to address ya know. I have set some personal goals. but with regards to R goals. Im not sure besides the communication and validation of feelings and not being dismissive on those.

[dleague]

Thorton, appreciate the insight here for sure!

The fastest way to get her back, is to let her go. Trust me. It's the best chance you have. It worked for me (although that relationship ended a few years later).

Yea I have been trying to. She seems to be able to cope with it easier than I can right now. She def does more GAL than I do. She has more friends to go hang with. I do as well. Just need to reach out. When she is here though she is only focused on getting the house ready to sell and packing up her things.

Counseling with her? Nope! Don't do it. She will use that as an opportunity to say "I tried, and not even counseling could fix our problem" She will do that to relieve herself from any guilt and tell friends and family she did everything to save the marriage.

I understand where you are coming from. She said thats the only way she would go. It was her bargaining chip so to speak to get me to sign papers. I feel like she is holding onto more stuff here and not giving me all the details. Just doesnt seem right and my senses are telling me that there is more to it being just that she has held onto feelings for years and a switch flipped and she doesnt want to be with me because she doesnt want to sweep things under the rug as she has said. I told her it doesnt have to be that way. We just need to learn to communicate. She isnt interested. Said that she doesnt want to. I asked her why and she said she doesnt want to. so I left it alone. I feel like there is more going on. I dunno if I feel like I need to know the things I dont know for my own sanity or closure or what?

Basically, you want to get to the point that she starts to fear losing YOU. You do this by starting to act like you're fine with her leaving. You don't act like a jerk, you just start to act like you have had an awakening and you now realize life is going to be great with our without her. You start to give off a vibe, that you know you're the man. That you know you're attractive. You start to glow.

I know all of this is so hard to do when the pain is literally eating you alive, but you must fake it until you make it.

Oddly enough she has told me that I have gotten more attractive as I've gotten older. haha. This was pre BD. BUt yea I agree that I need to get her to that point. its hard to act like it doesnt bother me. I feel okay with it until she is around then it just brings all sorts of feelings up. Baby step though last night I didnt want for her to come home from taking her boxes to her office. Just went to bed. I need to progress more and like you said get her to realize what she may or may not miss. Part of me is getting there though as I focus on my future and what that looks like. Nervous but excited at the same time. Just hard to concept that the woman I built this life with just walks away without even trying everything to make it work.

How do you deal with the pain? You start by GAL. For me it was the gym, and I started mountain biking. I still do both to this day and it's been years since my sitch. Take dance lessons. Go skydiving. Cooking lessons. Pick up a sport. Go back to school.

Yea I need to do more of this for sure. I feel like we are financially holding money right now to pay bills and contractors. She goes out more with her friends just hanging out with them. Not even spending money. I have made my list of hobbies and it includes mountain biking like you have and gym membership (even though we built a gym at home), cooking classes and all sorts of other things. Plus getting ready to start a new job that will keep me busy for awhile. Its fully remote though so def need to find time for outside the House GAL stuff. Just need to reach out to friends and go hang with them. Been more sulking than anything at times and working around the house trying to get things done to sell it and get it listed. Its been painful doing it because everything here comes with a memory. but progress each day. Downside is I have to go through things with her. Makes it even harder to get away from her then.

At first you will do these things in hopes of getting her back. But eventually, your confidence will grow and you'll start doing them because you love them. Once you get to the point where you are no longer looking over your shoulder to see if she's noticing your changes, is when she might come back.

Def some areas I need to improve on is confidence, self esteem and growing stronger emotionally and becoming more of a leader in a man. Im a good man in the sense of providing for our family but need to venture out of the box more and become what I know I can become. I struggle with where to even start on this and goals both with regards to myself and R.

[dleague]

Hey good to hear from ya DnJ!!!!

Recall a DB mantra: Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do. W will tell you anything to get her plan sped along.

The business side: Stop agreeing to her proposals in the here and now. Just listen and take her proposal to your lawyer for review and guidance. Better (for you) would be to turn all that back and forth over to your lawyer.

Yea agreed here 100%. she is full steam ahead. on the moving out and the D. She has offered to pay for the D as well. She has said if I dont file then she will. Downside is if I drag it out then she can change her mind on the alimony and how much we agreed to according to my lawyer. She kind of holds the cards there as Im not trying to pay more in alimony if I dont have to. If she doesnt want to be with me then I have to secure my future and that means financially as well. Will make it harder to start a new life if I am paying her more on alimony. She has agreed to a lump sum from the house proceed right now.

You cannot hold her to go to counselling. Besides she will twist/use the counselling, like anything/everything else, as justification for her leaving and why things aren’t working out. Some purposefully failed counselling is pretty easy to roll into “well I tried, I guess it’s just not meant to be”.

.

Yea I have thought about that angle as well. Like I told Boat though I feel like there is more to this story though.

You sign the paper if and when you want to. Or should. Is W proposing some awesome deal for you? Or did she just talk you out of your part of the commission?

Yea the commission thing bothered me in the sense that she offered and then said I asked. I know she was wrong and then she flipped and said she only said that because she was done, tired and wanted to get it over with. Agreed to keep the alimony the same if she kept the commission. It was a matter of 2k vs about 15k. So yea jumped on that.

This from her, a gal who is bailing on her vows. She’s misleading you, in this and in her departure.

Yea crazy man honestly. I feel like she has more in the story so to speak. I probably shouldnt even push to find out what it is at this point. but it doesnt sit with me knowing and having that feeling.

She isn’t trying to be… but….

She knows that would hurt me… but…

Often the stuff after “but” is used to try to justify the stuff that proceeds it. This dialog assuages her guilt.

Only folks in an illicit relationship speak that way. If she was not engaged in an other relationship or flirting with one, she’d not speak like this, she’d not think like this.

Yea that def threw me off. She said she will probably end up in another R because thats the person she tends to be. If she is in one then just come out with it. Funny enough she asked that when this all dropped. She asked if I would have been easier with her telling me that she cheated on me or that she doesnt want to be with me. I told her cheating because I have had that happen and know that feeling and I would not go through that again. SHe was on the other end of that question with her response. She tells me there is no other guy, when I have asked her straight point blank. I feel like there isnt honestly. Maybe there is and im just being naïve at this point. she doesnt give off those vibes though, considering we still have done the deed since this has gone down. Im not sure if I will even know or if anyone will know at this point. She is pretty low key with not telling people her life.

Do you see who is actual gaslighting who here? She’s keeping you off kilter. You did look gaslighting up. Psychological manipulation through a variety of means. It will have one questioning their reality.

yea agree here. She used my vulnerability that I care for her still. I am in no way a gaslighting person and told her that. I may have some narcissist tendencies on the surface level here but def not gaslighting.

Focus on you. Embrace actives. Make changes. All for you! Any changes you decide to make must be for you, not some attempt to win her back.

working on this for sure here. one day at a time. Just need to learn where to focus. Everyone says focus on yourself. What does that even look like though?

[Rockon]

Focus on yourself:

-be the man you are meant to be
-if you have put things on the back burner for some day in the future because of your marriage or your W, the time is NOW. That doesn’t mean you have to have a MLC, that would be unhealthy. But invest time, money and energy on making your life the kind that you want to live.
-determine and clarify your core values and live them
-you were going to travel in ‘25, do that - but start in ‘23
-find and make your friends, friends that have shared values and who make you better and who challenge you with compassion and honesty not judgment.

[dleague]

Rock, appreciate the insight here man.

-be the man you are meant to be
-if you have put things on the back burner for some day in the future because of your marriage or your W, the time is NOW. That doesn’t mean you have to have a MLC, that would be unhealthy. But invest time, money and energy on making your life the kind that you want to live.
-determine and clarify your core values and live them
-you were going to travel in ‘25, do that - but start in ‘23
-find and make your friends, friends that have shared values and who make you better and who challenge you with compassion and honesty not judgment.

I def plan on traveling more. Will probably have a place to stay around here for the next year to help my daughter out here and get her footing. And gives me time to get my priorities lines up and heal from this D.

Still trying to figure out what it means to be the man I want to be. I've always been a provider and that has been my mission and focus. So not even sure what my focus is now. I know its on myself but I have to figure out myself what that looks like.

I do have my friends to look out for and meet up with. I just need to reach out an make that attempt. They have been on the back burner for so long while i was providing for my family and building my life. My focus has been on others for so long that I havent focused on myself and making myself happy and what that looks like. Still trying to figure that out and will do .... in time!

[dleague]

Dnj, Boat,

So thinking on this a little more about if there is an OM. There may be considering the facts. She is pushing the issue of getting the D done and over. She is willing to pay for it. She is taking less on alimony. She is giving up alot on the house personal property. She is giving up alot financially when settling. She isnt even trying to repair what we have. She said she is the type of person that likes to be in a relationship. I actually asked her the other day out of respect for us that she wait until we get our papers signed before she gets in another relationship. She told me that she is going to do what she wants to do and I dont get a say in it. Stepping back and looking at the bigger picture, she may very well have OM on the side. Dunno how far its gotten but could be started already possibly. I feel like there isnt but not sure if its just me being naïve to the fact because of my feelings for her. She doesnt hide her phone or anything like that and tells me her plans. Just high level observations here. When I asked her she said no and she doesnt have time for that. SHe that is not her focus. She just wants the D over with and behind her she said. So not sure if she wants it all behind her so she can move on or with OM. who knows.

[Boat14]

In 14 years being on and off the board I can remember only a handful of times there hasn't been a OP. If it really matters to you than you can easily find out. Do you have free access to her phone?

[dleague]

Yea I can get ahold of her phone if I wanted to and check things out. Would have to see though. She may not just let me have it like she did before. She used to when we were together. She does text while she is around me but has one of those privacy screens cause hers cracked and my daughter had a spare one. So i think I would have to time it while she is in the shower or something along those lines. SHe does still leave it lying around at times though. That will crush me I think more to find out if there is OP. But I feel like it may help me close the door easier. Plus it may have implications in the D with the lawyer.

[DnJ]

Do you have free access to her phone?

Don’t sneak onto her phone while she’s showering, that’s not having free access. You cannot take back things you do or stuff you say. Have faith, all things will be revealed in time. Snooping will just hurt. And you do have to live with yourself.

Plus it may have implications in the D with the lawyer.

In my locale. Nope.

Affairs, cheating, and such have zero impact upon divorce. None. Zilch.

The law only sees custody; assets and liabilities; and splits according to the formulas.

Only proven unsafe behaviour/lifestyle for the children affects custody. Affairs are not in that category.

D