Learning the ropes

[DnJ]

Good Morning MA

I'm feeling confused. Something has shifted yet at the same time it feels like nothing has moved.

Too much talking with H, draws you in to his world, and confuses you. Focus on your path and forward movement. H has moved and shifted, however that is mostly internal and will appear/feel like nothing has happened.

Back to communication - how do I do it at this stage where he seems to be rapidly sliding towards depression?

Let him find depression. He needs to feel the loss, the guilt, the shame, and yes the depression. This is still his path, and you were not invited along. Don’t inject yourself into his needed suffering.

He needs a lighthouse more than anything else really. A stanchion. Let him decide to catch up to you.

I want him to know I care but not in a cake and eat it way?

Why? Why do you want him to know you care? Realize this is your want, it has little to do with H. You’re getting drag into his world and looking for validation from him.

He knows you care. He really does. And his emotions are cranked to eleven. He cannot handle much feelings from you or anyone. For example, S and D’s messages were certainly emotionally charged and H had to go radio silent due to the pressure. (By the way, hearing a few truth darts here and there is a good thing for him. And radio silent shows those got through.)

Be the lighthouse. Live your life. Shine. And let wayward/lost ships find their way.

I'm still not initiating communication but the past few days, he has been messaging & he is in a difficult place. He's clearly not at the place where he can give OW up but also doesn't want to give us up. He's back off sick from work, can't eat & only gets relief from sleep. He's told D that he's still emotionally invested in OW but wants me.

Breaking up is difficult. Withdrawal will be hard. Leave him to his mess. He needs to grow and accept responsibility for his actions and deeds.

He needs to reach his own decisions & I think, because he's arguing with her, he is fearful that he will be left with nothing.

Yes, he needs to make his own decisions. And own those decisions, and the benefit or consequences thereof.

I think I've been too accommodating.

I've been trying to use validation but I think he interprets that as I'm comfortable with how he is behaving.

Do not accommodate. You are the prize. You keep moving forward and living your life. H needs to catch up with you, not the other way around.

It hurts like hell that I'm still the back up plan & I want to be able to approach communication the right way. Supportive but not a walkover. Any thoughts?

Communicating is much more than words. In fact, your action will speak louder than words.

OW and H arguing is a good thing. Their relationship is built upon lies and deceit, which make a terrible foundation. Stay out of it. Let her be her undoing. The more she and he fight, the more H will resent her, and wonder “what the heck am I doing”, and question his life choices.

The best current support you can provide is to let go. Be a lighthouse, and let him steer his path.

Part of communicating is boundaries. This will ensure H knows and realizes you do not approve nor condone his behaviours, while you do recognize his valid feelings.

I'm still the back up plan

Don’t be.

H may consider you his back up plan. He might try to place you on the shelf as an insurance policy of sorts. You need not going along with that. You shouldn’t go along with that.

A good mindset for you regarding H and boundaries:

- My friends don’t treat me that way.

- People will treat you as you let them.

Setting your bar high, at an appropriate level, is ok. And most people will usually exceed that, once they realize.

…text message from him last night that said "I had a lovely day today, always feel a bit tearful when I leave".

The fragility of the broken hurt mind and soul is present and should be considered. Kindness and compassion while allowing them to walk their path is accomplished best by focusing on self. Leave his consequences to fate/karma. We don’t need to rub their face in anything, nor do we ignore nor condone their behaviour. Place boundaries upon disrespectful actions work well.

When one first strays and steps out of the marriage they are very confused and walk in two worlds. Both world views are fully active within them. They want to be married and they want to be with the other person. Typical bomb drop usually happens with the choosing of the other partner and the feeling of no longer wanting the path of being married.

For a while, sometimes a really long while, one’s spouse feels adamant about the rightness of their choice and decision. Yet, as troubles accumulate between the “new” couple, more and more resentment builds and life’s reality seeps in.

They will expend tremendous energies maintaining their fantasy narrative and relationship. Remember, these are hurt broken people who often looked to an affair to make them feel better, to find happiness. Such efforts will not last, for their unhappiness is within them, and no matter where they run or what they do, there they are. As things degrade, some find another partner; some just get tired of expended such energy and resign themselves to their lot; and some look inward.

If/when some internal shifting and looking inward starts to occur, the old world view will start to emerge. Once more they will live and walk in two worlds. Again, both being fully active within their addled mind. A very confusing time for them, and coupled with much regret, shame, and such for deeds done.

He is presently, again, walking in two worlds. The competing viewpoints and internal struggle will be very difficult and confusing for him. He needs to struggle.

To be truly kind and compassionate, will likely feel less so. Be the lighthouse. Not his friend. Not his father confessor. Be wife. The prize. Let him catch up.

You aren’t looking for him to be some confused boyfriend. Nor a friend bemoaning about his troubles with OW. You want him to step up and want to be husband. Period.

You continue walking your path, and moving forward. Let H feel the loss. And give him to God or fate.

Communication is more than words.

D

[Kind18]

I agree with DNJ.

He needs to feel the pain and simmer in the oven for a while.

The only caveat is that if he’s depressed and you think he’s at risk of self harm, you have a responsibility to tell someone.

Many mental health or depression help lines have a system where if you ring them and provide his details, they’ll give him a call and give him the opportunity to talk to someone.

The other advice I have is that DBing is a long, glacially slow grind. You’ve DB’d exceptionally well, and in a relatively short amount of time, he seems to be at least aware that he’s making poor long term decisions. In your brain, because you’ve seen that shift in him, you feel like the last step is simply that he starts working back towards the marriage.

But it doesn’t work like that. It takes time and lots of swing and roundabouts. This site is littered with WS who eventually seemingly came to their senses and decided to dump and cutoff AP, only to fall back there time and time again. Many also dumped AP because they knew they wanted to fix their marriage, only to end up with a different AP weeks later.

This is a marathon, not a sprint. Nothing is wrong here MA, except with your expectations that it’s going to happen quickly because he’s acknowledged his mistakes.

Be patient - and place yourself and your needs above all his priorities while he navigates his train wreck.

[MA1970]

DnJ Thank you for your thoughtful, quick & comprehensive response. It's given me a lot to think about which is why I didn't want to respond immediately. I am a reflective person and really want to learn & change during this process. I feel sad today and am trying to work out what that is about. I think some of it is ego. I felt on top and I've come crashing down & feel bottom of the pile again. That's all perception though. In actual fact, I'm in the same position I've always been in. This is out of my control. I need to focus on me. I need to detach and treat him like a neighbour. His words have invited me to care for him & that's not my job. I need to work on recognising what he pulls out in me & not responding immediately. I'm going to try and give myself a boundary of not responding to emotive texts for a few hours.

Originally Posted by MA1970
I want him to know I care but not in a cake and eat it way?

Why? Why do you want him to know you care? Realize this is your want, it has little to do with H. You’re getting drag into his world and looking for validation from him.

This really made me think. Our dynamic has always been that I'm the solver, I'm the care provider, I'm the mother to sort both H & the kids. I've felt resentful of this previously. Your thoughts have made me realise how quick I am to jump right back unto the role I hated. Its also made me wonder if this is exactly what H is expecting me to do. Its almost like he is inviting me to come in and do the hard work for him & end his relationship with OW. He is certainly inviting me to come and sort his mess for him. I could do that but that would prevent any chance of r happening meaningfully in the future. I know he needs to travel this road alone but MY fear is almost inhibiting this. I need to watch out for this. Maybe set a goal around it? I never appreciated how hard this all is. I'm not sure I'll have the resilience to stay standing but I'm hoping the work on me will prevent me from getting into a similar relationship in the future. Thank you so much DnJ. Your post has so much of value to me in it.


Kind - thank you. You have made a completely valid comment about my timeframes. I say that this will take time but I've fallen for a quick positive and expect immediate change. As I said at the top of the post. Nothing really has changed. He's still nit got any committed action, he's still a child seeking reassurance and guidance from the person he has hurt the most. He's still trying to run back to his safe place. I am still allowing this. I am still not upholding my personal boundaries & I am the one getting hurt. Lots to think about. Going to spend some time this weekend setting clear personal boundaries and thinking of my GALs in relation to this recent learning.

[MA1970]

I've got a question. H's emotions are all over the place at the minute. I know from previous posts that it is not my job to smooth the relationship with H & the kids but what do I do if that relationship is causing harm? My kids are older (S-19 & D-16) so are old enough to make their own decions about contact & I'm allowing then to do that (thanks to good advice in here!).

As said above, H is starting to experience the loss and depression. He's arguing with OW & flits between over contact and no contact. The background to my question is that D has spoken to him previously how important it is that he responds to her messages, particularly when he is with OW. D has history of school trauma & is quick to interpret rejection which triggers significant anxiety. H knows this when he is of sound mind. This week has involved a lot if drama where both kids have messaged their dad with several thoughts about his behaviours. I have stayed out if it & had no contact since Tuesday morning. D messaged him today asking why he lied about ending it with OW and asked him if OW knew that he was going to end it. H messaged back pleading with her to not tell OW. She screenshot the message & he then rang crying saying he had messed everything up, he wished he hadn't slept with OW, he loved D & his family & wanted them back. D was crying too but he didn't acknowledge her distress only his own. Unfortunately all this happened whilst I was out getting my hair done in prep for girls night tonight. I came home & D said she had 3 panic attacks since the phone call & her eyes were puffy & red from crying.

I am no contact with H since the beginning of the week &, whilst I am happy for D&S to make their own decisions. I am not happy that he is unburdening his own distress on a 16 year old girl with past rejection trauma. I've offered D counselling but she has refused because she wants to focus in exams and is worried IC will open the lid on past trauma. Should I contact H to ask him to be thoughtful about who he offloads to? He us supposed to be seeking his own IC but this may have been a lie. Any ideas on how to approach this?

[SteveLW]

No do not contact him. You are trying to exert control over that which you have no control. Likely he'll become angry and do whatever he wants to do. It he'll placate you and do whatever he wants. So focus on what you CAN control. Being the best mom that you possibly can for D! That's within your control. WAH is completely out of your control including whether or but he offloads to D or not.

Remember, focus on what your can control. Let go of what you cannot.

[DnJ]

Hello MA

From my experience, openly discussion the situation was very helpful for the kids. We talked about the facts of what is going on; the kids’ feelings; Mom’s bizarre behaviour; and the likely reasons (midlife crisis) for her wild shift from who she once was, rationalizing this with her displayed behaviours and statements. Oh, there was so much fodder for discussion.

It is not our job to facilitate or maintain the relationship between kids and their other parent. We just don’t destroy it. However, we can and should, gently steer, coach, mentor, and be a role model, for our kids.

I’d encourage daughter to speak with you. Encourage her questions. Answers usually lead to more and more questions I found. The difficult part is getting this path started.

Your S19 and D16 are definitely old enough to know their mind, and know right from wrong. Work towards understanding (not condoning) Dad, then compassion, empathy, and forgiveness. There are some real difficult and worthy life lessons in all that - accountability, responsibility, kindness, forgiveness, and such. They can realize they can hold Dad accountable, and not have feelings of vengeance towards him. As an example.

D has spoken to him previously how important it is that he responds to her messages, particularly when he is with OW. D has history of school trauma & is quick to interpret rejection which triggers significant anxiety.

Unfortunately, nor she nor you can control Dad and how/when he will respond. Daughter can only control herself. The path to get where she can mute down her expectations of timely responses from Dad is a bumpy one.

D said she had 3 panic attacks since the phone call & her eyes were puffy & red from crying.

Consider telling daughter that when she gets triggered, be it from Dad or otherwise, she can call you. Anytime. Anywhere. And you will pick up the phone. An actual phone call. Not a text. A voice to voice call. It’s surprising how little such a safety net needs to be used. It’s more the fact that it’s there, acknowledged, and available.

I am not happy that he is unburdening his own distress on a 16 year old girl with past rejection trauma.

Agreed.

Consider boundaries for daughter. She can tell Dad not tell her such stuff. And hang up if he continues.

I've offered D counselling but she has refused because she wants to focus in exams and is worried IC will open the lid on past trauma.

I think it would be good for daughter to remove the lid on her past trauma. I’m sure she scared of that, and all the feelings that will surely stir up. Problem is, things buried alive will haunt. She needs to explore and make peace with it.

Perhaps, in conversation with you, daughter can open up and reconcile her triggers to rejection. Or she may require a IC.

A heads up for you, son and daughter will likely lash out at you. Especially when you converse with them. This is because you are the safe parent, and they cannot risk loosing Dad yet. Lots of their anger and feelings will be (mis)directed at you. It’s perfectly normal for them, and only temporary. Although it ain’t much fun for us. Just go with it, and realize that them getting it out of their system is a good thing.

D

[MA1970]

Thanks Steve /DnJ. Some really useful points there and I'm glad I asked before acting on impulse. She's been much better today & I think I would have regretted it. Its completely crazy that I didn't think of discussing that she can have her own personal boundaries with her dad & can hang up if the conversation is too much. I have also discussed with her about calling me whenever she needs to.

I'm less good. I've found the past few days really hard. I've met with friends but not been great with other GAL & not walked since H threw his latest curveball. I'm going to start this back up again tomorrow & starting journalism again from tonight.

I feel I'm wavering with whether I have the resilience to keep going with trying to be a lighthouse. My mind has been very chatty this weekend and emotions have got the better of me. I've had strong urges to message him and tell him how cruel he has been. I haven't because when I engage my non reptilian mind, I can see that he is hurting, confused & in pain and thus to send him these messages would probably drive him more towards OW and the fantasy world. I know detaching is the key but when does this get easier? 8 weeks on Tuesday since BD. Feels like a lifetime!

[SteveLW]

It gets easier for everyone in different timelines. As a general observation, LBWs tend to take longer that LBHs do. Not sure why that is, though LBWs tend to be more dependent on their WAHs. It's almost an addiction for some. The key is to not try to shortcut the process and take it one day at a time. It doesn't happen overnight but gradually gets easier with time.

Remember, like with addiction, contacting him is a relapse and resets your clock. Addicts in recovery don't say "I've been sober for a year except for one slip up 6 months ago." Nope, they say "been sober for 6 months" in that case. Find another outlet and when you feel the urge to contact him, use that other outlet instead. Exercise is a big one. But maybe it's a friend you can call.. Or an activity you can engage in that takes all of your focus. The shooting range was a big one for me since safe fun handling requires focus.

One day you'll look back, no matter her outlet, and find it difficult to recall how terrible this all feels.

[DnJ]

Hello MA

My mind has been very chatty this weekend and emotions have got the better of me. I've had strong urges to message him and tell him how cruel he has been.

Emotions are fleeting. Glad you chose a difference path.

I feel I'm wavering with whether I have the resilience to keep going with trying to be a lighthouse.

For what’s worth, I always got the sense you have a high degree of resiliency.

Do or do not. There is no try.

Trying is tiresome. Just be.

I know detaching is the key but when does this get easier? 8 weeks on Tuesday since BD. Feels like a lifetime!

Yes, the days do seem to go by so very slowly at times. Like Steve said, everyone’s timelines are different.

We all become healed and whole in time. There is not a formula to tell when that will be. Grief takes as long as it takes. Right up until the moment it’s over.

As for easier. Ask yourself, are these present days easier than the ones right after bomb drop? Overall, each day, each week, that goes by is easier than the preceding one. Each step along our journey is cumulative. They summate.

I’m coming up on seven years post BD. There was a time when I was so mired in the bog of my situation, I could never see myself again feeling like I now do. I knew, well I more hoped, I’d get through it and find happiness again. But for a while, I felt very differently.

How long was that while? I’m not sure. Those cumulative days do reach a tipping point, a shift of one’s perspective. I know it happens, I’m living it, yet I don’t recall a specific moment. The delimitation between the stages of our journey are rather nebulous.

D

[MA1970]

Thanks for words of encouragement Steve & DnJ. I took a lot of comfort from them. I've not felt distress like that since the beginning when H was living at home and it blindsided me! I'm glad I posted and also glad I didn't follow my urges to contact. The strong feelings passed & alongside this, a little chip of my eagerness for R.

I'm opening my eyes to being worth more than his current treatment of me. This recent episode has also shown me that he has such a lot of work to do on himself before he would be able to commit to a healthy collaborative loving relationship. I'm not sure he'll get there & if he did, I'm not sure I'll still be waiting but no need for any firm decisions. One day at a time!

I continue to work on me, in particular I'm trying to develop my own confidence in being independent and not feeling that my worth is dependent on having a husband. Lots to look forward to this week including an overnight stay with a good friend where we are going to relive our youth and go clubbing.