Failed pretty miserably with DBing last night. I could feel the frustration brewing. I left to avoid it on Valentine’s Day. I thought I had enough planned yesterday to distract myself, but I did not.
I got off work, picked up D5 and D7 and met my sister and niece at the park. Took D7 home and then went home. I had planned to go shopping for some last minute things before I leave. When I got home yesterday, W asked how we were getting to the airport for our trip tomorrow. I repeated what I told her with the hotel and the rental car – I’ll make my arrangements and you can take care of yours. This upset her again, just like the previous times, but I anticipated that. No big deal. She walked away for a few minutes, then came back and said she’s taking D5 with her to her friend’s house when we get back from our trip while we figure things out. I said you’re not taking her anywhere but we could talk about it later and walked away. She asked if we could talk. I should have pushed it off, but I engaged (…when you engage, you lose).
She said she did not understand why I was being so unreasonable, why we couldn’t just do this together for D18 and said that this trip is about D18 and that I should put my feelings aside to make sure she has a great trip. She doesn’t know that I have been putting my feelings aside for months and checking in with D18 almost daily to make sure things are okay. She doesn’t know that D18 sent me a text while I was at the park asking if she could throw OM’s flowers away because she has to walk past them to get to her room and it hurts her to see them. She doesn’t know that D18 doesn’t even care if W goes on the trip or how upset D18 is with her. I understand that W flipping the chaos of this trip onto me is likely her refusing to take accountability. I know I should have just left it at that and said “I hope D18 has the best time possible and I’ll do my best to ensure that” and walked away. Instead I engaged again. (…when you engage, you lose). I told her she knows why I’m not doing things together. She repeatedly said that she honestly has no clue why. I told her not to insult my intelligence and walked away. She told me not to walk away without explaining myself. (…when you engage, you lose). I engaged again and most of the things I’ve kept in for all of these months came out instead.
It started with me calling her out for cheating on me for 8 months. She attempted her previously used justification of “you told me that we are free to do whatever and even my therapist agreed…” I cut her off, told her we had already discussed that, told her to own her sh!t, told her that the people in her house aren’t stupid and we all know what she’s been doing. I told her it was bs that she couldn’t just get the divorce before doing this again. I told her she’s the one who has to look in the mirror and the faces of her kids each day knowing she’s a cheater. I told her the only reason I’m even still here is because I wanted to make this work but that’s over now. I called her out for bringing this sh!t into my house with the flowers and gift. I honestly don’t remember everything I said but it was mostly just a 5-10 minute rant while she stood there with a face that said “Are you done yet.” I think that’s actually what she said when I was done. I walked away all full of adrenaline and she just stayed in the room folding her clothes.
It felt very similar to this situation I described back in early October, only W’s reaction was basically emotionless, which was a big difference from last time. My mindset is also way different this time. No fear of upsetting her. I re-read the responses from that post. I still think her leaving is best right now, but I am contacting my L today to ensure D5 does not go with her. It’s tough because we are leaving tomorrow morning, but I’ll get the ball rolling on that. I don’t expect that W will text me again accusing me of “pinning her in a corner” or causing a panic attack. It happened early in the evening and she just went about her day as if things were fine. D18 was eating some Cheetos and W came in and said “Eating some Cheaters, I mean Cheetos. Too soon?” It was sad, weird, funny, crazy all at the same time. Wtf.
We didn’t speak the rest of the night. I cleaned D5’s bedroom and got her to bed. At some point W went off to her bed. D18 just hung out talking and showing me funny stuff on her phone. S19 obviously heard everything too, so I checked on him as well. I told them that they don’t have to come to me, but if they have thoughts/feelings that they should get them out and that I am always available for them.
It felt good getting things off my chest, but I feel a little like the crazy one, especially because of W's lack of response the whole time. I do recognize it as a mistake that I said I would not make again. D18 said she knew it was coming from how I was the day before. I knew it too, which is why I left on Valentine's Day. I’m not beating myself up about it, but also won’t pretend it didn’t happen.
Secondly, I suggest taking D18 for a long car ride or to get something to eat, just the two of you and have a very direct conversation. In that conversation, tell her that you respect her perhaps wanting to keep some feelings or info private, but make it abundantly clear to her that she does not need to protect you from anything, that you will always be there for her, and that she can always come to you for anything. Sadly yes, that needs to be stated clearly.
I plan to do this on our ride to the airport tomorrow. It’s about an hour away. D18 told W she wants to ride with me there. And I’ll make sure to remind myself to separate my issues with W from my kids relationship with her. It’s gotten blurred at times and I can’t let that happen.
Originally Posted by Mach1
I think the expectation of the day had you in a tailspin before you even started your day. Expectations being the killer of so many things in our life. I think that you were expecting things to go sideways, and maybe even worked toward that a bit.
I know this is true. I’ve been reading and talking to others about positive mindset and how that can manifest positive results. I went into Valentine’s Day expecting it to be hard for me. I failed to take a step back, anticipate possible results, think of the best approach I could make to those situations and keep a positive attitude regardless. Lesson learned for sure, but this is great advice for any other newbies here.
And Mach, I don’t feel like you are beating me down. I truly appreciate all of the advice given from people here. It has never felt like a beat down. I really wish I had read your post yesterday. I’ve been pretty steady with my emotions for a while now, and I think I got a little overconfident with my ability to handle them.
Originally Posted by Mach1
YOU COMMUNICATE ABOUT THE KIDS.....REGARDLESS
Agreed. My post was a little confusing when I mentioned W complaining about communication regarding the kids. Basically, W never mentioned the kids when texting/calling me on Valentine’s Day after I left. She only mentioned it the next morning when telling me I couldn’t take D5 to the park if I’m refusing to communicate about the kids. The kids are one of the only things I text her about and I will absolutely continue to ensure I do that.
You laid some truth darts out there for her to step over.....
Can't say that I haven't done that.
HOWEVER....
Don't expect anything from them other than blank stares and nothingness.....
Truth is...
The next time you speak, chances are, she will have forgotten all about what you said....
It's part of the "push/pull" of DBing. She feels you getting stronger, so she will look for more buttons to push on you, and when that fails, she will try to "nice" you back in a little....
You said them, they are gone, move forward from them and don't dwell on them again....
Actions not words...
Keep moving forward DW....that's all you can do...
Have fun this weekend, regardless the craziness around you.....
Mods- What happened to LH's post, above my last post ???
DW you are in the thick of it and man, I'm so sorry you and the kids are in this place.
I'm glad you'll be with D18 tomorrow alone in the car. Some of the most honest talks with my son were done in the car.
Don't beat yourself up too much about what happened. Sounds like you were shooting truth darts all over the place. Yes, when you engage you lose, I guess? And you don't need to participate in every fight you're invited to, but sometimes, just sometimes, when you're backed into a corner it's ok to come out swinging the 2x4 of truth. F it and F her. It is what it is. We are human, not automatons and NOT Persian carpets to be walked all over.
Originally Posted by DnJ
[quote=DW17] I currently feel like I don’t want anything to do with the woman who used to be my sidekick through life. I know that feelings change.
Perfectly normal to feel such. And rather temporary for the woman you promised your life to, and the mother of your children - unless such feelings are reinforced.
I don't see how your feelings, DW, can be temporary when your wife continues to throw her AP in your and your family's face.
Your D18 is not her confidante. Your D18 should not feel uncomfortable in her own home because of her mother's actions.
What here is to like, respect? What here would make any sane person want anything to do with someone so lost to reality and the effect her actions are having on the people she's supposed to love and protect most, her own children?
Sorry ... I guess I'm not DBing ...
But, I will say it again. We each come here to save our marriages.
If we're lucky, we may get a chance to have a new marriage with our old spouse.
But here's the absolute truth:
If we're really lucky, we wind up saving ourselves.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
DW you are in a very difficult situation. I can relate to so much and I’m really impressed with what I understand of what you are dealing with and the ways you are looking after yourself, your family and what’s most important to you. No advice - just solidarity, brotherhood, admiration instead. Strength and courage mate. And have a blast this weekend. D adores you it seems like and she is going to be happy having a great time and seeing you relax and enjoy yourself. Maybe fit in some relaxation and space for yourself at times. I have been doing that - just getting out for some walks.
Well, I’m back from the soccer tournament. Had a lot of fun even though D18’s injury limited her to about 20 minutes of playing time in the first game before her injury worsened. It was still a lot of fun though. Went on an awesome solo hike one morning and the scenery was amazing. It was pretty busy with soccer stuff most of the time, but I did get go buy some clothes, go to a lame bar, and socialize a lot. I’m naturally fairly anti-social but I’ve noticed that the actions I have been taking for months have now become habit and I now feel like one of the more social people in many of the groups I’m in.
There were only 5 adults that stayed at the same hotel as the team (coach, me, W and 2 chaperones), so I spent most of the down time having drinks with them. W mostly stayed away, which was nice. I’m good friends with the coach too, so it was nice hanging out with him. As planned, I chose to embrace the awkwardness between W and I, and one of the chaperones definitely made things awkward at times. She asked a lot of innocent questions that led to some weird moments. W got to explain how we met each other and then got to respond to how awesome it is that we’ve been together since high school. Another moment was grabbing drinks at a restaurant and the bartender gave me a combined bill for me and the chaperone. He apologized and said something about how it seemed like we were a couple. It was tough toeing the line between having good conversation and trying not to cause any issues, but it seemed like I found the right balance.
So on to the current concerns. The day before we left, W came home crying after talking to her cousin, who is her closest family member, but lives a few hours away. I was taking a shower and W came into the bathroom demanding we talk. Apparently D18 spilled most of the beans about our sitch to W’s cousin’s daughter (Sorry if this gets confusing). The daughter told her mom and her mom called W to talk about it. W blamed me saying stuff in front of the kids (my truth darts the other day), for her whole family now knowing what’s going on. (I don’t think her whole family knows. They barely talk to W’s cousin). She also said that the stuff with OM was “very recent”, like that matters. She only considers a PA to be cheating apparently. Anyway, a few more truth darts came out. Not nearly as dramatic as last time, but she left the bathroom.
Later W said she is taking D5 with her to stay at her friend’s house, where she stayed for exactly 1 day months ago. I told her she isn’t taking D5 and that we’d discuss it at an appropriate time. She asked if D18 wanted to go stay there also, which she declined.
On Sunday, I got a text from W while she was in her hotel room saying “I’m not leaving the house until I have a legal parenting plan in place. If you have any suggestions on what you would like, please let me know and we can see if we can agree to get me out of the house and moving forward.” I responded “This is a big decision that I don’t want to take lightly. We can figure out the specifics when we get back.”
She responded with another red flag text about not feeling safe in the house because I yelled at her with the kids there. I did not respond. Obviously I’ll take the same precautions about her text as last time she did this, which was the only other time I’ve raised my voice at all in 8 freaking months. W also said she won’t be paying bills when she leaves. I’ve got a list of things to talk to the L about this week. I have IC tomorrow also. But I am planning on taking charge with this portion. I understand that whatever parenting plan is set up now is likely to be the plan for the future as well, so I want to make sure I get it right.
Last thing is that W is having D18 go to IC with her tonight. D18 doesn’t really want to go. I don’t want to get too mixed into their relationship and D18 knows and understands this. I did warn D18 that W likely is bringing her there with an agenda in mind. I told her that if it’s to keep their relationship from becoming even more strained, that’s fine. That’s D18’s reasoning for going. That was also her reason for spilling everything to her cousin – she wants her mom back. But I said if she is made to feel guilty, made to feel like her opinions are not valid because she’s too young or doesn’t really understand what’s going on or anything like that, she does not have to be there. I told her to express her feelings truthfully and not to feel ashamed of how she feels, regardless of what those feelings are.
We’ll see how it goes. It was nice to get a break from the chaos and I was happy that I barely noticed that W was there. The separate rooms and cars were absolutely necessary so thank you to all who reinforced that idea when I was wavering.
DW, reading your post it seems inevitable that W will be moving out and proceeding with her D plans. I'm very sorry. The good news is I think you're handling the entire mess really well. You're focused on your side of the street, maintaining strong boundaries which honor your values and protecting yourself and your children.
I can't say enough about making sure that you don't get between the kids and their mom, while also keeping your focus on yourself and the personal changes you'd like to make within, so that you're a husband only a fool will leave.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Well, I’m back from the soccer tournament. Had a lot of fun even though D18’s injury limited her to about 20 minutes of playing time in the first game before her injury worsened. It was still a lot of fun though. Went on an awesome solo hike one morning and the scenery was amazing. It was pretty busy with soccer stuff most of the time, but I did get go buy some clothes, go to a lame bar, and socialize a lot. I’m naturally fairly anti-social but I’ve noticed that the actions I have been taking for months have now become habit and I now feel like one of the more social people in many of the groups I’m in.
There were only 5 adults that stayed at the same hotel as the team (coach, me, W and 2 chaperones), so I spent most of the down time having drinks with them. W mostly stayed away, which was nice. I’m good friends with the coach too, so it was nice hanging out with him. As planned, I chose to embrace the awkwardness between W and I, and one of the chaperones definitely made things awkward at times. She asked a lot of innocent questions that led to some weird moments. W got to explain how we met each other and then got to respond to how awesome it is that we’ve been together since high school. Another moment was grabbing drinks at a restaurant and the bartender gave me a combined bill for me and the chaperone. He apologized and said something about how it seemed like we were a couple. It was tough toeing the line between having good conversation and trying not to cause any issues, but it seemed like I found the right balance.
So on to the current concerns. The day before we left, W came home crying after talking to her cousin, who is her closest family member, but lives a few hours away. I was taking a shower and W came into the bathroom demanding we talk. Apparently D18 spilled most of the beans about our sitch to W’s cousin’s daughter (Sorry if this gets confusing). The daughter told her mom and her mom called W to talk about it. W blamed me saying stuff in front of the kids (my truth darts the other day), for her whole family now knowing what’s going on. (I don’t think her whole family knows. They barely talk to W’s cousin). She also said that the stuff with OM was “very recent”, like that matters. She only considers a PA to be cheating apparently. Anyway, a few more truth darts came out. Not nearly as dramatic as last time, but she left the bathroom.
Later W said she is taking D5 with her to stay at her friend’s house, where she stayed for exactly 1 day months ago. I told her she isn’t taking D5 and that we’d discuss it at an appropriate time. She asked if D18 wanted to go stay there also, which she declined.
On Sunday, I got a text from W while she was in her hotel room saying “I’m not leaving the house until I have a legal parenting plan in place. If you have any suggestions on what you would like, please let me know and we can see if we can agree to get me out of the house and moving forward.” I responded “This is a big decision that I don’t want to take lightly. We can figure out the specifics when we get back.”
She responded with another red flag text about not feeling safe in the house because I yelled at her with the kids there. I did not respond. Obviously I’ll take the same precautions about her text as last time she did this, which was the only other time I’ve raised my voice at all in 8 freaking months. W also said she won’t be paying bills when she leaves. I’ve got a list of things to talk to the L about this week. I have IC tomorrow also. But I am planning on taking charge with this portion. I understand that whatever parenting plan is set up now is likely to be the plan for the future as well, so I want to make sure I get it right.
Last thing is that W is having D18 go to IC with her tonight. D18 doesn’t really want to go. I don’t want to get too mixed into their relationship and D18 knows and understands this. I did warn D18 that W likely is bringing her there with an agenda in mind. I told her that if it’s to keep their relationship from becoming even more strained, that’s fine. That’s D18’s reasoning for going. That was also her reason for spilling everything to her cousin – she wants her mom back. But I said if she is made to feel guilty, made to feel like her opinions are not valid because she’s too young or doesn’t really understand what’s going on or anything like that, she does not have to be there. I told her to express her feelings truthfully and not to feel ashamed of how she feels, regardless of what those feelings are.
We’ll see how it goes. It was nice to get a break from the chaos and I was happy that I barely noticed that W was there. The separate rooms and cars were absolutely necessary so thank you to all who reinforced that idea when I was wavering.
How do you feel about all of that ^^^^ ??
How you did..??
How you reacted, or if you acted, rather than REacted ???
On Sunday, I got a text from W while she was in her hotel room saying “I’m not leaving the house until I have a legal parenting plan in place. If you have any suggestions on what you would like, please let me know and we can see if we can agree to get me out of the house and moving forward.”
She responded with another red flag text about not feeling safe in the house because I yelled at her with the kids there. I did not respond.
Good job not responding.
Hopefully you are keep a notebook with details. Did you yell at her? Or did you slightly raise your voice? Just clarify your version in your notes. You can always share the details with Lawyer and get advise.
Have you read divorce poison? If not, might want to move that up on your reading list.
If she continues to make false claims, use your phone to record the interactions. Never be alone with her.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I can't say enough about making sure that you don't get between the kids and their mom, while also keeping your focus on yourself and the personal changes you'd like to make within, so that you're a husband only a fool will leave.
Thanks for emphasizing this bttrfly. I’m not sure if my conversations with D18 have crossed a line with her relationship with her mom or not. Are there any specific things I’ve mentioned that you feel I should be more cautious about?
Originally Posted by Mach1
How do you feel about all of that ^^^^ ??
How you did..??
How you reacted, or if you acted, rather than REacted ???
What could you have done better ??
How were the M&M's ??? : )
I’m not exactly sure how I feel about how I did. It’s nice to no longer care about speaking up for myself, but at the same time I’ve spent months avoiding raising my voice at all. I do wish that I said many of the same things, only more calmly. When W walked in the bathroom, I said we could talk when I got out of the shower. Instead, she opened the shower door and started the conversation. I cut her off when the BS started coming out of her mouth, and at the end told her to get out of there. She wasn’t coming to me with her feelings, she was blaming me for her family finding out. I guess I just stopped caring about validating and empathy. And even during the weekend I mostly stopped thinking about her and her feelings at all. The exception was at the rental car place because I could see her getting anxiety. I helped her get her car and she followed me to the hotel. It’s hard because I obviously care about her. Part of me feels guilty for ignoring how she feels. She is my wife and her head is a mess right now. But I also had a much better time by not worrying about that.
I think she is going to finally be more proactive about completing the D process. I do finally feel like my personal life will be better without her. I am at peace with that part for the moment. But I do feel like things will be worse for D5 and I struggle with whether I am still honoring my vows if I give up. I do still view W as a person going through a mental health crisis. I have no way to know if that is temporary or not. Long ago, after the first PA and even at the beginning of this sitch, I said if I knew she cheated on me I was done. Obviously I’ve “known” for a while now, I wasn’t sure how I’d react when it came out of her mouth. So far my reaction has been a confirmation that I do deserve better.
As far as acting vs reacting, I don’t know. I reacted to her bombarding me in the shower. I acted during the trip by focusing on myself. If I could do the whole weekend over, I don’t think I would done anything different. I feel good emotionally with the exception of potentially losing 50% of my time with D5.
Oh, and the M&M’s… I think W must have been eating those because I was too busy doing other things. I didn’t spend much time in my room and I thought I’d have some reading time, but didn’t touch my book either. Trying to continue with my GAL. I only ran once while I was gone, so I gotta start back up today. Got a ticket to a show with friends while I was gone. And I need to figure out weekend plans. M&M’s are going to have to wait.
