Stuck in limbo IV

[Doug54]

I also agree with LH that she's throwing you under the bus in the text with the counselor. She's blaming you for her problems.

By the way, I also recently found out some troubling information (my H's affairs) through an anti-DB method. I didn't snoop though, I steered an interaction towards an R talk. I understand the many reasons why not having R talks are the #1 rule of DBing: among others, it will likely become highly charged, pushing your spouse even further away, and your spouse will probably not be 100% honest and/or give unsatisfying answers because they are likely confused themselves. All of this is incredibly painful for the LBS.

But in the end, I think my anti-DBing move actually served my ultimate DB goal of taking my power back and maintaining my sanity. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely traumatized by H's confession of the affairs. But I nevertheless appreciate knowing what's going on. And I prefer to have gotten the info from him rather than from someone else, which was bound to happen eventually. I am also relieved, in a way, to know that I wasn't crazy to harbor suspicions.

I admit that I am totally itching to know more about the extent of my H's infidelity, but at least for now, the healthiest choice for me is just to leave it here, just process the knowledge of the existence of the infidelity without torturing myself with details.

So I guess the point is, it's all about how you react to the information. I really see the wisdom R2C and LH19's advice re: 1) stop snooping once you know what is going on and 2) either ignore and GAL or confront and be firm about consequences. What reaction(s) will best serve your goals?

Marching, thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your insight. As far as my goals, we have three children at home and I am trying to maintain their equilibrium for the time being. S14 seems to be losing respect for W. He witnessed her pretty drunk at home New Year's after stepson 19 was her designated driver. He has said more than once that he wants to "live with me" if we get divorced (I'm not sure he knows how child custody works).

I guess it's kind of good knowing a little more now and not "having my head in the sand" but I have been really p!ssed off. Not an ideal place to be.

[Doug54]

I can relate too. WW said she was unhappy at BD - she just wanted adventure joy and passion. Left me and family and long time deep solid friends and went wild. At ONE point shortly after she said she was happy. Then since very unhappy, life is so hard, so much stress etc.

Thanks, Rockon. We'll see what happens with my situation. As LH says, it has to get worse before it gets better. And right now, I don't want any part of a future with W. Just biding time.

[Kind18]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

A good way to think about it is to realise that you only get, on average, 80 laps around the sun.

The last 10-15 usually aren’t that great, managing health problems.

The first 15-20 you’re learning and deciding on a career. So you really only get about 45-50 years where you can have a great, unrestricted life. And there’s a 50% chance you’ll get less than 80 years.

Every day is a gift. Stop sitting around, worrying about what might be, and trying to cajole someone into loving you again. This person, who is destroying your marriage, are you going to let them ruin the best years of your life? Will you sit around, worrying about it, trying desperately to fix it back to what it was, knowing that it obviously wasn’t that great anyway?

When you’re 80 years old, and the light is getting very dim, will you look back on the years you stopped your life trying to get this person back? Will you regret not going out and living your best life every single day when suddenly you have very few remaining?

LH is right. Your ticket to happiness is to live every minute to the full. Become the best you can possibly be. Fix what you identify YOU did wrong in the relationship. What your partner did wrong - who gives a sh*t? That’s their problem, not yours - and you can’t fix it, the only way that will ever change is if THEY decide to change themselves. Find what makes you tick. Go and do things you enjoy. Find hobbies, get fit, eat fine food, connect with and love your kids like you’ve never done before.

If your partner decides they want in, then maybe you will reconcile. But if you waste your life trying to get them back and it doesn’t work out, I guarantee you’ll look back on that time in later life as a waste of an amazing opportunity.

I came here three years ago, shocked, horrified, broken and lost. They day I let it all go and decided to ignore her dumpster fire and live my best life - that’s when I found true happiness.

[BL42]

For what it’s worth, W is going to appear like her life is going great. Happy with her new life and behaviours, new augmentations, new friends, etc. She will expend tremendous energies maintaining her fantasy/reality. She has to. Yet, in the still darkness of night, when she is still and at rest, her demons will come out, and she will struggle.

Happy people don't go around making huge changes, withdrawing from their families, trying to escape their lives. She might feel good in the moment when she's getting her fix, but I would be very surprised if she isn't actually struggling deep (or not-so-deep) down.

DnJ & marching make a great point here. One that often is hard for the the LBS to realize being bogged down in our struggles with the sitch...but it's not always rainbows and sunshine for the WAS/WS...even if they're projecting a happy exterior. Often times they're struggling just as much if not more, but hiding it.

I remember asking my then-W how she could blow up our family so easily (or at least it seemed to me) and she responded something to the effect of you don't know how much I cry in the car...etc. Also found a Pinterest board of motivational quotes and how people would judge her and she had to do this...etc.

So...not that this CHANGES the situation at all for the LBS, but perhaps it gives some reassurance or comfort in a way that it's not just us struggling. We still have to live with the results unfortunately, but don't assume it's all a fairytale on the other side....despite your perception of their newfound "happiness".

[LH19]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

Well it may help to understand what she is going through. There is some really good information out there regarding Happiness U-curve, the female brain and hormones. It is not uncommon for a woman your Ws age to want to blow up her life completely.

The really unfortunate thing is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

[bttrfly]

btw, your son is old enough in most states to make his own choice about where and with whom he will live.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Doug

I like your summary. It’s an interesting timeline with some key moments.

-August 2019: stepdaughter goes away to college. W cries on the drive home after we move her in. In hindsight, I'm wondering if this was a kickoff point for W's MLC.

A child going to college and/or moving out, the family growing up, us growing old, pretty common fodder for a trigger. My W also cried when our first son went to university. There was also the death of her Grandma and Grandpa. Lots of life’s pressures around that time. She ended up leaving the kids before they could leave her. What an odd solution she came up with. Ah, such confusion. To her that likely felt right.

-March 2020: Covid. Everyone is home. I don't necessarily remember more stress in our particular household, but there seems to be plenty of literature about Covid / lockdowns straining relationships.

Yes, there are plenty of reports of increased stressed. And, in my view, lots of increased stress from such reports. Folks listen and will usually do (or manifest) what they hear.

-November 2021: W asks me to help fix her laptop and flies across the kitchen to grab it away when a Facebook Messenger window pops up. Everything happened too quickly for me to read anything. Lots of arguing about it that day.

-December 2021: we take a trip as a couple right before New Year's. Everything seems fine.

-February-ish to March/April 2022: W seems to be growing distant and starts seeing a counselor in March. This turned out to be largely an attempt at painting me as a bad husband / "narcissist" and more or less legitimizing her EA and possibly PA. The "bomb drop" came in the form of me pressing her about what was going on. There was a reference to how it might just be a phase she was going through and she didn't "feel the same" towards me. (insert eye roll emoji)

Time from trigger to running seems about right. I’m sure the lockdown delayed her journey somewhat.

-May to July 2022: probably the height of "going through the motions" in the household. There were still bedroom relations but almost all talk was limited to kid-related stuff. We do three ill-advised joint counseling sessions and a "keeping up appearances" summer trip with the kids. Before this past week, the last time I snooped around was I believe the end of July.

-August to November 2022: I try to apply DB principles and adopt that mindset for the most part. No snooping around, which I feel helps my mental state, but in doing so, I guess I was burying my head in the sand. W pulls back on going to her counselor and no talk of divorce or splitting up. Some ups and downs in there, I'm sure (going by memory here). I largely stabilize at work with not thinking about the marriage situation all the time.

Snooping around is just going to hurt you. Good for stopping. That is not burying your head in the sand, that is a conscious choice and decision to focus on things that are more important - like you and kids!

And it removes pressure from W. Gives plenty of time and space. All things she did respond to.

-December 2022: Mostly a good month. W seems a little less guarded with her phone and even shows me a few things on it, lets son play on it. Probably a mirage. W increases non-sexual touch at bedtime (in addition to sexual touch at times)- back scratches, etc. which had been absent for quite a while. General conversation is almost about normal. We talk about things other than just the kids. W goes to get breast augmentation procedure, texting me often and "after" photos. W vents about my parents increasingly, a frequent source of conflict. I try to validate but once or twice make an offhand comment like "Why do you care about them so much? It's not going to matter before too long" (a reference to splitting up).

In August you started to apply DB principles. More or less. And W’s did notice and even had a positive response. Interesting the influence one yields. Make no mistake, she still needs to walk her path. DB keeps you sane and not throwing boulders in her way.

I wonder why W has increasing conflict with your parents. I suspect she is projecting upon them. Perhaps feelings from/about her own parents and upbringing. Things she doesn’t yet, and cannot yet, see clearly.

Comments like “why do you care about them so much” and “it’s not going to matter before too long” are not helpful. Her venting feelings do matter. To her. Invalidating them and her will place her target upon you.

Validating feelings isn’t agreeing. And I get how you likely want to correct someone dismissing/disrespecting your parents. For items W brings up, that are clearly factually incorrect, you can let some go, and you can counter some - I’m sorry you feel that way, however my parents <insert truth dart statement>. Don’t do this for every single thing, too many darts lose their sting.

And realize, W is unlikely to see things in your way. She’ll argue the sky is red all day long. So, don’t argue. Just agree and validate. She will hear and eventually start to see blue sky, in her own time.

Admittedly, I backslid a little and snooped around recently. I saw that W had paid for some online sex course thing and confronted her about it. Definitely not adhering to DB principles, obviously.

-Late December: discover the sex site online course thing. Open separate bank account the next day. See that W had messaged her counselor about it, venting. Also in there:

W: "I feel guilty and awful now, I mean, it is because of things I'm doing"
Counselor: "Don't know what to tell you about that"
W: "It's all jealousy and wants to punish me"
W: "But he'll go along just fine without a care in the world and then suddenly decides to fixate on me doing something. Nothing has changed, he just decides to get obsessive."

(No further reply from counselor). That reference to me "going along just fine" is obviously where I'm trying to DB and not act controlling. So anyway - extremely long-winded recap of where not snooping might get you - obliviousness.

That is certainly some snooping around. Finding her private conversation between her and her counselor. And bringing that up to her. Doug, stop going down that road. That is a cheese-less tunnel for your emotional state.

A person in crisis has to grow up, and unfortunately that often includes some unsavoury behaviours. Pressure, blaming, judging, etc. will all delay the MLCer’s journey and propel them out the door and away from that source. Don’t place that target upon yourself. She will place it there enough all on her own.

Nothing has changed, he just decides to get obsessive.

W sees your changes, and is questioning if she can trust them. Recent snooping/setback is not the answer you want her to have. Be better, not bitter. Be Doug 2.0.

That reference to me "going along just fine" is obviously where I'm trying to DB and not act controlling.

Yep. Now stop trying and start doing.

So anyway - extremely long-winded recap of where not snooping might get you - obliviousness.

Obliviousness. Hmmm.

It’s clear where snooping does get one.

Not snooping. The mind has trouble doing “not”. For example, do not think of elephants. And now you’ve conjured an elephant in your mind. To do “not” we actually first have to do, then ignore. And that reinforces the very thing one is “trying” to not do.

To not snoop. Do otherwise. Focus on you. GAL. Be active. Etc. (Idle hands and all. )

We make a purposeful effort until those changes, the desired new behaviour, takes hold and becomes who we are.

I do not equate snoop-free with being oblivious. Plenty of information will present itself without one needing to dig. That need to dig is driven by ego. A need to be right. A need to judge. A need to condemn. Something you can (and should) let go of, if/when you choose to.

What would you recommend?

Both.

Turn your focus from W and into something better. That is not ignoring, just less following. Live and love your life. And at times hold W appropriately accountable, letting her consequences befall as they do. Boundary driven, not manipulating or such.

D

[Doug54]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

A good way to think about it is to realise that you only get, on average, 80 laps around the sun.

The last 10-15 usually aren’t that great, managing health problems.

The first 15-20 you’re learning and deciding on a career. So you really only get about 45-50 years where you can have a great, unrestricted life. And there’s a 50% chance you’ll get less than 80 years.

Every day is a gift. Stop sitting around, worrying about what might be, and trying to cajole someone into loving you again. This person, who is destroying your marriage, are you going to let them ruin the best years of your life? Will you sit around, worrying about it, trying desperately to fix it back to what it was, knowing that it obviously wasn’t that great anyway?

When you’re 80 years old, and the light is getting very dim, will you look back on the years you stopped your life trying to get this person back? Will you regret not going out and living your best life every single day when suddenly you have very few remaining?

LH is right. Your ticket to happiness is to live every minute to the full. Become the best you can possibly be. Fix what you identify YOU did wrong in the relationship. What your partner did wrong - who gives a sh*t? That’s their problem, not yours - and you can’t fix it, the only way that will ever change is if THEY decide to change themselves. Find what makes you tick. Go and do things you enjoy. Find hobbies, get fit, eat fine food, connect with and love your kids like you’ve never done before.

If your partner decides they want in, then maybe you will reconcile. But if you waste your life trying to get them back and it doesn’t work out, I guarantee you’ll look back on that time in later life as a waste of an amazing opportunity.

I came here three years ago, shocked, horrified, broken and lost. They day I let it all go and decided to ignore her dumpster fire and live my best life - that’s when I found true happiness.

Thanks for the kind words, Kind. I appreciate your post. I need to embody the mindset you advocate here, but I've slipped (as evidenced by my recent posts). I went and read some of your initial thread. Really impressed with all you've done for yourself, mate!

[Doug54]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

Well it may help to understand what she is going through. There is some really good information out there regarding Happiness U-curve, the female brain and hormones. It is not uncommon for a woman your Ws age to want to blow up her life completely.

The really unfortunate thing is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

I appreciate the perspective, LH. I guess it comes down to how much one can tolerate. Which of the two options in your other post would you advocate, knowing what you know? Ignorance and self-focus, or trying to apply consequences to wayward behavior? Again, didn't Sandi say wayward wives should be reigned in? Probably wouldn't work in my situation given the nature of MLC.

I apologize if my posts are taking on a repetitive tone. I feel like I was coasting without too much concern over what W was up to and curiosity got the best of me, and threw me for a loop.

[Doug54]

btw, your son is old enough in most states to make his own choice about where and with whom he will live.

Thanks, bttrfly. I would probably feel bad about that if it came to pass - if S14 elected not to see much of W. I have a lot of resentment towards W but even if the decision were left up to me for custody, I would certainly want her to see the children 50 percent of the time. It's important they have both parents in their lives.