EO's journal

[SuperDave]

I really hope I can get to even a quarter of what you have eo. It is interesting about your parents' Rs. Mine were (are) both HD and were always having "early nights". On their 40th anniversary my dad gave a speech to about 60 guests much of which was to say how wonderful their marriage was and that they had enjoyed a fantastic sex life. We (their 4 children) were really shocked but not half as shocked as our LD wives.
SD

[Tim2point0]

I reiterate my feeling of being very jealous and envious of you, EO. I really hope W and I can get to that point... we're a LONG way away from it at the moment...

[eyesopened]

We didn't ML last night, but I gave my husband a foot and back rub for 2-3 hours (in and out of bed). He had a hard time falling asleep last night (partially due to him falling asleep on the sofa in the afternoon and sleeping for 2 hours there) and says that he feels a little depressed. I suspect he may be in a relatively mild midlife crisis.

We talked for awhile and he said things all seem to be upside down now, including the fact that he's not used to me offering to ML with him, etc., etc. He also talked about how he's not 20 anymore where he could have sex 2 or 3 times a day (that's one reason I suspect a mild midlife crisis and a little anxiety). We talked quite a bit and he asked for a back rub, which I did, and he fell asleep.

But, afterwards I couldn't sleep and could feel some old resentments and irritability surfacing again. I'm the one who's putting in the most effort to change our relationship. I sometimes feel as though his job, the kids, the house, etc., take priority over me in his life (probably not true, but it feels that way sometimes). I remember how he'd come home late from work sometimes simply because somebody walked into his office as he was leaving and would want to talk; he'd come home and we'd eat a fairly late dinner and clean up (he's always helped with dinner and cleaning up), ignore each other for most of the evening especially if he fell asleep in front of the TV (he was working 10-11 hour days), and then go to bed where he'd reach for me. And, if we had sex and I had an orgasm (I'm very easily orgasmic), I think that he felt we'd reconnected emotionally and that it was as good for me as it was for him. The men who worked with him greatly respected him, and many of the women would tell me how lucky I was to be married to him; but I mostly felt lonely and alone in our marriage and taken for granted.

When we met for lunch once a week for a couple of years when the kids were all in school and sometimes met for lunch at home to ML (which was also my idea), I realize that he was probably very happy at the thought of "getting laid" while I was most happy at the thought of having his undivided attention and time alone with him.

I remember reading on at least one thread where one woman whose husband is the LD spouse in their marriage thought it wasn't fair that LD wives generally just have to "show up". I understand what she was saying, but that's often not true. In some cases, an LD wife such as me for whom sex in and of itself doesn't establish emotional connection or intimacy, has to work very hard to get in the mood to have sex with a husband who's become a stranger, who doesn't recognize the importance of emotional intimacy, and who doesn't realize that sex by itself doesn't satisfy my need for emotional intimacy and affection. I'm the one who would buy and read the books on techniques, which he loved. I'm the one who would buy massage oils, the Liberator pillows, etc. Mostly he would just reach for me or say something to indicate he wanted to ML and if I wasn't "in the mood" or was busy or preoccupied, he'd respond with a comment like "so what else is new". He's a very good and skilled lover and would always make sure that I had an orgasm and would take his time (definitely NOT a "wham bam, thank you m'am" kind of guy), and I'd often feel relaxed and satisfied physically, but I'd still feel lonely and like I was sleeping with a stranger.

If this sounds like I'm blaming him for all our problems, I'm not. I'm simply venting and saying things I'd never ever say to him (besides, I know that every story has two sides, and he has his own long list of ways I made him feel unloved or inadequate). I feel like there's a bloody war going on in my mind (kind of like those cartoons with the little angel on one shoulder and a little devil on the other side). But, I also see more and more the value of journaling here especially when I go back and read earlier posts (amazing how faulty memory can be at times and how unreliable feelings are).

Neither one of us knew the things we know now; and most of our friends and family joked about sex disappearing after marriage and kids. Things are definitely improved between us now, but I was surprised to feel a few of the old resentments. I won't let those spoil our progress, but I see how easy it would be to do so.

It seems like common sense that a major change in the relationship, even for the better, will cause some discomfort and a desire to return to what feels familiar. I feel like I'm fighting with myself now, but the struggle for a better marriage and more love and intimacy is one I'm committed to winning, and I won't give up. I'm very lucky in that we're still together and he's responding very positively to the changes; it's just a little surprising to see that this is still a struggle despite the positive changes and reinforcement and that it would be incredibly easy to fall back into old unhappy ways again.

Anyway, I'm tired today from lack of sleep, but things are still going well between us. He may have felt a little depressed last night, but he's cheerful and relaxed today (guess I must give pretty good rubs and massages). It's very interesting that as he feels more satisfied sexually and recognizes that it's there for the taking now, sex itself seems to diminish in importance while his love and need for touch come to the forefront. At this point, he's far more likely to ask for foot rubs and massages and to pull me into a hug than to ask for sex.

My goal for frequency right now is a minimum of 2 times a week. From what I've read, that seems to be the minimum for the health benefits especially for men. Last week, we ML 6 times, which is probably the most times we've ML in one week in our relationship where most of the LM was at night (hard to ML during the day with kids around the house no matter how old they are). We both worked very demanding jobs with long hours when we met and I didn't quit my job and move in with him until I was 6 months pregnant (our jobs were almost 100 miles apart, so we lived apart during the week even after we got married), so most of our lovemaking took place during the day on weekends before we had kids.


Dave,
How wonderful about your parents. I feel sad about my parents sleeping in separate bedrooms, especially since they seem to just co-exist together now. They take care of each other and care for each other, but there seems to be little or no intimacy or pleasure in each other other's company.


Tim,
I hope that you and your wife surpass my husband and me. If two prickly people like us from families where there was no physical affection between the husband and wife can make progress, there has to be hope for you. You made a comment on your thread that I've been thinking about and will try to respond to later this week. You mentioned discussions where your wife talked about making-out sessions before your marriage, and I realized that I looked forward to sessions like that far more than I ever looked forward to sex no matter how hot the sex was or how great the orgasms. Anyway, I'm trying to figure out exactly what was going on, why I feel this way, and why it now feels as though we're integrating some of that into some of our LM sessions now. I've taken the focus off orgasm and have finally convinced my husband that he's not leaving anything unfinished and it's no reflection of him as a lover if I don't have an orgasm. I don't know how to explain this except that it feels sometimes like there's a higher or different plane of physical pleasure that I can reach that's very different from orgasm. It's kind of liking riding a wave higher and higher for a very long time and then being gently taken to the shore as opposed to riding a wave until it crashes down around you. Anyway, it's something I'll try to figure out; and even if it's nothing like what your wife experiences, it might at least provide a different perspective. As I read somewhere, the study of human sexuality is still in its infancy.

[Tim2point0]

I'm the one who's putting in the most effort to change our relationship. I sometimes feel as though his job, the kids, the house, etc., take priority over me in his life

That is EXACTLY how I feel. Just replace "his" with "her"...

[SuperDave]

eo,
You are experiencing the return of old unwanted feelings after the high of last week and this gives you the oportunity to self soothe until you stop looking for validation from your H but get that validation from within yourself. I have found conscious self soothing to be incredibly powerful because it allows you to stay thinking clearly instead of rising to the bait and arguing or sulking. The efforts you have made so far are the envy of this forum and armed with the knowledge from SSM and PM there is no reason why you should ever go backwards. It is also fascinating to learn that your H is now having to turn you down. I suspect that most of us HDs would not be able to keep up once a day for long despite what we might think! Of course we have never been fully tested
SD

[InherJourney]

But, afterwards I couldn't sleep and could feel some old resentments and irritability surfacing again. It seems like common sense that a major change in the relationship, even for the better, will cause some discomfort and a desire to return to what feels familiar. I feel like I'm fighting with myself now,

I can really relate to this. Even though H and I have made progress, or maybe because of it, I am starting to develop feelings of anger and resentment towards him again which interfere with my desire. I seem to be focusing on the fact that the men on this board are doing so much to help their wives become more sensual partners, while my own H did not demonstrate the degree of patience, humor and tolerance I am seeing here. I am trying to "hold on" and keep that commitment to myself and to him to work on the marriage but maintaining change is proving difficult. We are doing this anger/resentment dance back and forth that would even leave Schnarch's head spinning. The good news is that we are keeping our twice weekly routine going...once a week during a planned Sat nite date night, and the other just a spontaneous time sometime during the week. I am trying to make our lovemaking feel more connected but not getting too far right now. Seems anything more intense is completely overwhelming for both of us at this point.

Journey

[MPT]

I'm simply venting and saying things I'd never ever say to him

Why would you never say these things to him? Speaking only from my experience, but it was when I stopped protecting him from my feelings and emotions that we really reached the emotional reconnection. The sex was great and the talks about sex were great. They helped with the intimacy, but only up to a point. To really feel the emotional intimacy (that really makes the sex great!), I had to trust him with my feelings about him and our relationship. I'm not talking about ranting and raving and blaming him, just sharing what's going on inside me with respect to our relationship...the good, the bad, and the ugly. At the same time, he had to trust me with his.

Journaling, turning to others, and keeping these things from him turned out to be the LEAST helpful I could do. It was safe but very ineffective in reaching emotional intimacy with my H. So whenever I have something I need to talk about, particularly with respect to him, he's my choice of confidante.

It doesn't mean he always agrees with me or I with him. We often both come away with an understanding that is different from what we both originally brought to the conversation. Making assumptions about what the other is thinking and what his/her motivations are is kept to a minimum. So is psychoanalyzing each other. Each person speaks for his or herself. As a result you really get the feeling that you know each other and are truly *known by* each other.

Consider not hiding your feelings from your H. Now that he's feeling more comfortable about the sexual intimacy, perhaps he'll be quite amenable to hearing how you're feeling.

And yeah, I know, it's still YOU taking the initiative and doing most of the work with getting your M reconnected. Oh well. I do know the feeling. Once you get the ball rolling in the right direction for awhile, it starts to become much more mutual with both sex and emotional intimacy. At least that's the way it has worked for us.
MPT

[eyesopened]

We ML last night with my husband initiating. It was great, and we used one of the Liberator pillows again. Different angles really are interesting and fun.

Wow, what a difference in feelings today from yesterday, and I'm unbelievably thankful about not acting on those feelings.

We spent most of yesterday afternoon together. I had to do some grocery shopping (as I said, it may not sound romantic to most of you, but we're still fighting for every minute we can spend together) so he went with me (his suggestion) and we spent an hour or so together also getting a bite to eat (also his suggestion) and talking. I've written before that I feel "warm" sexually when we feel emotionally close, but the heat now seems to be turned up a lot higher. Altogether a great afternoon which we capped off with dinner with all 3 of our kids at home followed by a DVD and then a great LM session for my husband and me. Interestingly, I used to be inhibited some by the presence of our kids when they were younger (a locked door seemed to signal to them that they should stand outside knocking and asking us what we were doing even late at night--2 are natural night owls). Now, my husband says that he's slightly inhibited because our kids are older and they know what a closed and locked door means. Interesting, but fortunately it doesn't seem to be all that inhibiting to him once we get started.

Once again, he's cheerful and relaxed today, and so am I. We had an interesting conversation earlier today. I asked him teasingly what he would do if I became insatiable for him. He replied that he would just have to clone himself. What's interesting about this is that he's shown a few mild symptoms of mid-life crisis (mostly comments about not being 20 anymore and being able to do it 2 or 3 times a day and that it seems to take him longer to recover than it used to), and previously his response would have been something like telling me I needed to find a younger guy, more guys, etc. Perhaps I'm reading more into his comment than I should, but it sure sounds like he "gets it" that my desire is for HIM and that he's a great lover.


Tim,
Thanks, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who deals with those feelings sometimes.

Dave,
Thanks, it helps to be reminded of that sometimes. Sometimes I feel like I'm re-parenting myself, and one thing that really seems to help is to ask myself what I would say to one of my sons (assuming we could ever talk about stuff like this) if he was going through something similar.

I can really relate to this. Even though H and I have made progress, or maybe because of it, I am starting to develop feelings of anger and resentment towards him again which interfere with my desire.

InHerJourney,
I've found Michele's book, The Divorce Remedy, and her CDs, Keeping Love Alive, to be very helpful with this. I've also found very helpful her advice not to rely on feelings but to monitor actual results. It'd be so easy for me to sabotage our progress especially since it doesn't feel comfortable to feel this good (in some ways, I'm an optimist, but I also often have that "waiting for the other shoe to drop" feeling). Michele says that one person can change a relationship for the better, and it sounds like you're doing a great job.

Why would you never say these things to him?

MPT,
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't a case of us not being able to communicate. This has more to do with my own issues, and I've unfairly blamed him for plenty of those in the past. So, I wouldn't say these things to him because it would be counterproductive, not fair, discouraging, etc. It just surprised me a little to see some of them re-emerge to plant doubts and negative emotions in my head.

He's been very responsive to the changes; and our problems were caused by both of us, more so by me than by him. Michele talks about focusing on the positives rather than the negatives, and my feelings yesterday were "old" negative feelings from the past. We'd talked about those things in the past, but neither one of us knew how to change things (marriage therapist we saw predicted that we would divorce as did my therapist). It would be as if I said to him, "Honey, I've noticed and appreciate how loving you've been, that you're giving it your best effort to make me happy and to give me what I've said I want, that you've forgiven me at my request for all the times I turned you down for sex and you even brought me 2 dozen roses the day after I apologized because I felt so bad; BUT, BUT, I feel resentful and angry because I felt unloved by you in the past, and the past can't be changed, so ultimately it doesn't matter what you do in the present and future." Even if I didn't mean it that way, I know him well enough that it would seem that way to him and as though I hadn't forgiven him even though I said I did, especially with my history of holding grudges. Conversely, he could say something similar to me about the many times I made him feel unloved and rejected (and there are probably a few of those feelings running through his mind at times especially some worries about whether these are short-term or lifetime changes on my part). However, he says things to me like "it's water under the bridge" and doesn't keep bringing up the past.

It would be cruel and unkind of me to keep throwing the past at the man I love and trust more than anybody else in the world. I'm relying very heavily on Michele's advice to do more of what's working and less of what doesn't work. Talking to him about old negative feelings and things he did or didn't do in the past that aren't issues anymore is definitely one of those things that doesn't work.

[SuperDave]

Quote eo: "Talking to him about old negative feelings and things he did or didn't do in the past that aren't issues anymore is definitely one of those things that doesn't work."
Absolutely. My W holds grudges for a long time and constantly reminds me of my failures. Usually if we go out with friends or family, when we get home she takes me to task for all the things I said or did that were "inappropriate". We have had some big rows about it. It doesn't happen much these days - but we don't get out so much...
SD

[MPT]

Based on *that* description of what you're not saying, I *completely* agree with you not bringing up blaming, critical, past issue stuff!

On the other hand, I didn't suggest bringing up the past, being critical or blaming him. I suggested talking with him about your feelings. I'm suggesting that you consider sharing your vulnerable, not so together part of you, sharing what you struggle with about yourself. You're sharing a little of that intimate, vulnerable part with strangers. You're not putting it in a private journal, so there is something about sharing it with others that is important/beneficial to you. Why not him? Just a rhetorical question. Something to think about, because you seem like the type of person who is willing to challenge herself. I must go accomplish stuff now .
MPT