EO, Are you sure that this "complete control" is a good idea and one that you can keep up throughout the remainder of your marriage?
I mean, even HD people (as you saw last night with H) have nights where they don't want it. Surely you are allowed, under your new plan, to just pass on a night and then make it up to him the next..?
I am just not seeing where this plan allows much freedom for YOU. And it can't be that satisfying for him, either. After all, what would YOU want..a mutually enjoyable experience or one where the other person has conceded control and will do whatever you say? Let's say, for instance, that you had complete control over hiking. He would hike whenever and whereever you said. Would that make you feel satisfied?
I'm not attacking your plan; I'm just wondering if it is going to be fulfilling enough to YOU to want to continue it. Yes rejection hurts but truly it is the lack of desire which kills, and you have already done a bangup job at addressing that!
Quote: We ML again last night (that's 4 sessions between Friday night and last night), again using the Liberator pillows (should have remembered how much men and boys love new toys).
He also finally believes me about how I get aroused and turned on by HIM, by his love for me, and by his arousal and desire (I'd explained to him that if I feel emotionally close to him I'm already "warm" and that my body will catch up once we start ML). Simple solution-- I showed him by not letting him touch me while I kissed him and "did" him with my mouth and hands for 15 to 20 minutes last night. Then, I let him touch me "down there" and he was able to see and feel for himself that I was very aroused and ready even though I'd been in "mom" mode seconds before I came to bed.
EO - I am intensely jealous of you (and your H) at this moment...
Tim, Believe it or not, I'm often intensely jealous of you and your wife because you were each other's first and only lovers. Having other lovers who I liked very much, but never loved the way I do my husband, may have helped hone skills and confidence, but there never was the emotional intimacy that there is with my husband. I don't know how to articulate it, but it's almost as though I have a harder time connecting emotionally through sex with my husband because of past experiences with men who I liked and admired very much and had very good, "hot" sex with but didn't love them enough to want to establish deep emotional intimacy and make a lifetime commitment. It became very natural for me to hold back and maintain a comfortable distance emotionally.
When I became a Christian several years ago, I first read verse 7:10 from Song of Solomon: "I belong to my lover, and his desire is for me." (NIV) It seemed to cut through to my heart as an expression of what I wanted with my husband (I also understand the parallel meaning regarding our relationship with God), to belong to him and to know that his desire is for me. Kind of a hard thing to admit and a very vulnerable and fear-inducing position for somebody like me who's always been self-sufficient, independent, reserved, and kind of aloof. I don't want to allow fear of intimacy with all its vulnerability and nakedness to control my life anymore. Or, maybe I'm just weird somehow.
Honeypot, I think I understand what you're saying and your post made me stop and think about what's going on. As bad as my marriage has been at times, there is one area where I trust my husband completely, and that's in bed (figuratively and literally). If I'm not feeling well, he won't expect or even approach me to ML. Instead, he'll send me off to bed to rest and take care of me. Except for being ill, I can't think of any other reason why I can't give him my undivided attention for at least 15 minutes. As for never turning him down, that's also a matter of integrity for me now.
With our past pattern where he stopped initiating because it felt like begging to him and I often didn't "feel" like ML I think it's necessary right now for me to make and keep my promise to give him COMPLETE control over the frequency of ML now, which means never turning him down and not putting pressure on him (I'm doing at least half of the initiating right now because he really likes it when I do that, but I want him to know that I'm not pressuring him and that if he prefers not to ML at that time, there will always be another time whenever he wants).
Michele says to do more of what works and less of what doesn't work, and this is what's working for us right now. As time goes on, things will probably change as we reconnect and become more emotionally intimate, and he can finally relax and know that this isn't just a passing phase, that it's a lifetime commitment and decision.
Update: We ML last night. I'd given him another foot rub earlier after dinner (and after he'd worked a 10-hour day and mowed the lawn for another couple of hours). He hasn't felt as well as usual since his last trip and thinks it's something he ate. When we went to bed, I initiated and he was a little hesitant because he hadn't showered after mowing the grass. I reassured him, truthfully, that I love how he smells (even after hard physical work where he sweats, he has a clean smell). What happened is that I started "doing" him with my hands and mouth and then we ML (I think he's still getting used to the fact that I can get really turned on just by touching, smelling, and tasting him because he wanted to see and feel for himself after I did him for a few minutes). I've also become more verbal in bed, which he's always liked and asked for. Although I'm pretty uninhibited in bed, I was a little uncomfortable with talking "dirty" in bed, perhaps because I don't use words like that in public. But, as I told him, there really aren't other words to express exactly what's going on when we ML (although I still love the "pretty" love words sometimes) unless you want to use clinical terms (ugh).
We're still doing a lot of talking about sex, our marriage, the past, etc; and I'm feeling more vulnerable than ever before, but I see this as a necessary cost for for trust and intimacy in our marriage (I also realized that I'm the one in our marriage who has more difficulty saying "I love you", especially saying it first).
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
We read that verse from Song of Solomon at our wedding, although it was a different version: "I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine." So much for that vow.
Although I think what is going on in your M sounds wonderful, I don't know if I agree with your philosophy of giving him "complete control" of your ML frequency. But then again, it doesn't sound like you're really doing that. From what it sounds like, you are giving him your complete trust that he won't take advantage of the privilege of your current openness to ML with him. That's a bit different. Still, whatever works for you, keep doing it!
Hairdog - who wishes his W's eyes were "opened" a bit more to the possibility of the power of love and intimacy.
We ML again last night (no Liberator pillow this time ) with my husband initiating. That was the sixth time we ML in the last 6 days. We both finally understand that if we're feeling emotionally close to each other, it takes only a few minutes of kissing, me touching him, or him touching me for me to become physically aroused and ready. Last night, I was ready after only a few minutes of kissing.
In TSSM, Michele talks about how liberating it is for people like me whose desire follows physical arousal to realize that we're normal and that we do experience desire, just not the same way as those people who have sexual thoughts that lead to desire and then to arousal. For my husband and me, it is liberating and a revelation to know what works (wish we'd known it sooner) and that it's normal. He seems to be intrigued by this revelation and the knowledge that my desire is truly for him and is triggered by him (he's a true believer now after seeing this for himself the last 3 times we've ML where I've become aroused by him through physical touch even without any direct stimulation).
I've also realized that talking to him while we ML (sex talk, not talk about the kids, the house, etc.) is also very liberating and personal. He loves it (I always loved him talking to me, and he's very good at combining sex and romance in his talk). I used to think it would sound like a bad script from a porn movie and would feel forced, but it's very easy and natural to tell him now what I'm feeling, thinking, anticipating, etc. while we ML, and it's a definite turn-on for him.
In the first chapter of PM, Schnarch presents a couple, Karen and Ken, who loved each other and seemed to have a good sex life, but whose LM was often impersonal (although they were together physically in the act, they weren't focused on each other). That's similar to what was going on with my husband and me. Although LM wasn't as frequent as my husband would have liked, when we did ML it was good physically, but we usually seemed to be distant from each other. Talking to him while we ML lets him into my head and keeps me focused on him and us and how deeply I love and trust him (scary thoughts for me).
Using Michele's directive to think back to when things were good and identify what was different, there was one time in our marriage when LM was better and our marriage as a whole was better. That was when all 3 of our kids were in school, and my husband and I would meet for lunch at least once a week. Sometimes we'd meet at a restaurant (often a fast food place) and would talk with each other. Other times we'd meet at home and would ML (that's when I bought the Lou Paget book on techniques). We were making time for each other and connecting emotionally and physically with each other. And, even though the frequency of these "dates" left much to be desired, our marriage was calmer and happier than it had ever been. What I realize now but didn't understand then is that my arousal pattern was very evident then. He'd walk through the door and be ready to ML (said he'd been thinking about it all morning). Meanwhile, I was looking forward to being with him but had given sex little or no thought. But, once he touched me and we started kissing, I'd quickly become ready and aroused to ML with him (and it was some of the best sex in our marriage).
That seems to be happening all over again now even though this is probably the most stressful time in our marriage (2 kids in college, the youngest in high school, a job for my husband with lots of travel and 50-60 hour work weeks, a fairly recent job transfer, remodeling a house, etc.). And, yet, the last couple of weeks have been calm, we're kinder and more loving to each other, we can discuss hot-button issues such as remodeling the house without the discussion degenerating into a fight, and irritability and anger are confined to single issues and blow over quickly. He's mentioned and seems to be surprised at how good ML seems to be now. And, I'm falling in love with him again.
Quote: Although I think what is going on in your M sounds wonderful, I don't know if I agree with your philosophy of giving him "complete control" of your ML frequency. But then again, it doesn't sound like you're really doing that. From what it sounds like, you are giving him your complete trust that he won't take advantage of the privilege of your current openness to ML with him. That's a bit different.
Hairdog, You're right about the trust. I also don't ever want him to feel pressured about ML especially since there's already so much other stress in his life right now. When I say he controls the frequency, this doesn't mean that I grit my teeth and force myself to have sex with him. He's working as hard as I am to maintain the emotional connection, and when that emotional connection is there, it takes very little effort for me to become physically ready to ML with him. Also, when I initiate, it's not a bored, disinterested "do you want to make love" as though I'm doing him a big favor. Physical touch, especially sex, says "I love you" to him, and I'm very much aware of that now. When I get ready for bed at night (we also ML during the day sometimes but that's usually at his initiation), I go beyond my usual preparations and add his favorite perfume. I don't wear anything else to bed (his preference--if it changes, I'll change). I hug him, kiss him, caress him whether we ML or not and focus on his response. And, if I do ask him verbally in some way if he wants to ML, it's in a teasing or seductive way.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
eo, I'd like to be able to say that I'm drawing inspiration from your success but in reality your happy situation is throwing my own sadness into sharp focus. You strike me as someone who is essentially a sexual person who just let her eye drift off the ball whereas my dear W has never been the slightest bit sexual. Sure, in the first few months she was willing enough but once she was confident that she had secured me as a life partner that was the end of it. There is no historically sexual state for us to "return" to so we are going to have to learn everything from scratch - and we're old dogs - and this is a new trick. Further more, whereas I'm panting and my tongue is hanging out she is whining and cowering in the corner. SD
We went to bed late last night and my husband was tired so we didn't make love. I realized that this is the first time in our relationship that he's turned down an offer from me to ML. This is probably a very good development for both of us. He was almost apologetic, but I don't want him to feel at all pressured and hopefully this is an indication that he doesn't feel sex starved anymore.
Two amazing things are happening. We talk a lot more and feel very comfortable with each other again (emotional closeness). Also, the amount of physical touching, with or without LM, between us now runs between 1 to 3 hours a day (long hugs, foot rubs, massages, touching while doing other things, etc.) Before this, it would have taken almost a month to accumulate the amount of physical touch we have in one day now. My husband is also now asking for or saying what he wants (such as foot rubs, neck and shoulder rubs, etc.), which he had stopped doing about the same time he stopped asking for sex.
If he has a primary love language, it seems to be physical touch (nonsexual in addition to sexual).
Dave, I really hope things improve for you. I'm not really a sexual person as far as sex drives go. In fact, using Willard Harley's list of 10 emotional needs in His Needs, Her Needs, I'm probably like most (not all, but most) women in that sex is number 6 or 7 on my list. We're "old dogs" too and intimacy like this is new to us (I happen to agree with Schnarch about the difference between genital and sexual prime). In one sense, I'm having to unlearn patterns from the past. I'm comfortable with sex, I'm confident of my abilities and skills as a lover, I'm easily orgasmic, but I often was emotionally detached during sex until recently. It's also helped that I no longer see ML as a big production or as a "chore" but as an extension now of the physical affection between us during the day. If you compare sex with eating, it's as though I used to see it as the equivalent of preparing a feast or getting ready to go out to a fancy restaurant. We're just as likely now to have LM sessions that are the equivalent of grabbing a piece of fruit out of the refrigerator, cooking something in the microwave, making something quick and simple, etc. We still have sessions that are the equivalent of feasts and fancy restaurants in that they're prolonged and require more work and/or preparation, but there's just as much emphasis now on "meals" that simply nourish and/or satisfy hunger.
InHerJourney, It is awesome to fall in love with him again, and I'm finally willing (after more than 20 years together) to acknowledge and accept the vulnerability and responsibilities (see the Harry Stack Sullivan quote below) that come with that. Good luck with your situation.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
We ML last night with my husband initiating. We're back to where we were BK (before kids) as far as frequency and using different positions and techniques in each session, but we're also seeing for ourselves the advantages cited by Schnarch that come from a long-term monogamous relationship.
We also spent a couple of hours before that cuddling while watching a movie. Prior to this, we used to sit on separate sofas in the family room while watching TV or a movie. Now, we automatically sit together touching. We also rarely pass each other now without reaching out and touching, and it's become automatic also for us to move into a hug when we're standing in the kitchen talking to each other. When my husband comes home from work or back from a trip, we now hug for several minutes, which seems to help us reconnect. I wish we'd learned all of this sooner, but we're doing well for a couple of people who grew up in homes where physical affection between our parents seemed to be minimal (My dad used to hug my mom and say ILY, but it was never reciprocated; and my parents sleep in separate bedrooms. My husband never saw any physical affection between his parents, but he heard his parents having sex sometimes since his bedroom was next to theirs and got the distinct impression that his mom hated it).
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
) with my husband initiating. That was the sixth time we ML in the last 6 days. We both finally understand that if we're feeling emotionally close to each other, it takes only a few minutes of kissing, me touching him, or him touching me for me to become physically aroused and ready. Last night, I was ready after only a few minutes of kissing.