BF I agree with you that you the greatest teacher is pain. As I said I believe our jobs as vets are to minimize the pain. I also agree that it’s a divorce busting website and everyone is presumably here to save their marriage. Fortunately the advice we give both reduces the pain and gives you the best chance to save your marriage. If you notice not many people here save their marriage because they have a difficult time DBing. Anyways one way or another we all survive.
LH, I agree with you about our role here as vets. Sadly, it takes so long to unwind, to learn how to detach. Our exes have the jump on us in that department, for sure, whether or not they've added a third party to the mix.
I don't know how to jump start that for someone coming here. The pre-programming is too strong to go cold turkey.
I'll be honest, while I've seen that Michele's techniques work, I'm not convinced that most marriages can be saved. I also know that people can heal from infidelity, but I'm not someone who will give a cheater a second chance. If my exh had come back I don't think I could ever be with him again because I couldn't get past the thought of him being with someone else. I'm being very truthful here. People can do it for sure. They are better humans than I.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
How lovely, a week holiday with your kids; and niece and nephew. You and five teenagers would have been quite a week. Sounds like you all went somewhere, like a resort. Or was it more a road trip? I’m sure it was good food, good times, and good memories crafted.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
…it is the intention that they will commute between the 2 countries. No idea why, his kids don't want to see him anymore, so he might as well go live in her homeland.
Why? Because they cannot live together. Their relationship is built upon an unstable foundation of lies and deceit. They are both using the other.
Also the kids don’t want to see him so why stay? Because this has nothing to do with the kids or you. H is running and deciding and following his emotions. Doing whatever feels in the moment to deaden the pain. Absolutely nothing to do with the kids! Or you! If he stays or leaves it’s all about him.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
NC really seems to be the solution for me today. It has given me an enormous amount of time to think about the past and the future.
Good for you. It sounds like you have a strong rational perspective on things. Well done.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
EXH does not follow the NC rule. He accuses me of taking the children away from him, now threatens to review the entire divorce and child support, says he will take a lawyer, etc.
That’s pretty standard from a person in crisis. H will not keep his word. Like everything else, he is back to being ruled by emotions right now. He agreed to no contact, because at that moment he felt like it. And then, of course he broke his word. My goodness, he had an affair, lied, cheated, and so on. He is not able hold himself accountable or responsible.
Expectations my dear, dial them to zero. H will not meet them. Not for the moment. He is going to do what he is going to do. Regardless of what you and he might agree to.
His accusations and threats of legal review, is H lashing out. I think you have everything set, except the house. It is unlikely H will follow through with his threats. And if he does push that boulder up the legal hilly landscape; it takes consistent effort and there are plenty of opportunities for misstep where it will roll back down. And if he does get this reviewed, a major change is quite unlikely. He is just lashing out. Baiting you. Trying to get you agitated. Be the gray rock.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
He now feels that he has really lost everything and wants to manipulate me emotionally, but I won't allow it anymore.
Exactly. Good for you.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
Kml regularly talks about the rose-colored glasses, well, I’m taking them off, although very slow but steady. Don't get me wrong, my relationship with EXH was real and intensely beautiful for about 16 years, but now that I have started to talk more with his brother and he has told me a lot about the past (before my time with EXH), it is clear to me that he has become exactly the same person he was in his youth again.
Yes, for a time we all look at our past and feel it a bit rosier than it was. However, we all have pictures and proof of our marriages and can “see” clearly the good and bad. I suspect your 16 years were indeed beautiful. My own marriage was excellent as well for 25 years, and R for 31.
Accept the good and bad, no need to write blame or rewrite the history. Your H, much like my XW, has become who he was long before you knew him. He has become his younger self, seeking his emotional growth from when he was so severely stunted. He (and J) is doing that in a most unhealthy manner. And they don’t realize nor understand the path they are running down.
To me, it’s not that folks have rose coloured glasses for their past, it’s they have to let go their wanted/desired future. We reinforce the past, colour it, in an attempt to keep our imagined future alive.
For example: The past was so great, so the future would have been so great. How can my spouse not see that? They must wake up someday.
That is an untrue equivalence. Yes, very often one’s past, their history is an excellent predictor of future behaviour. However, in emotional crisis, that simply is not true. There is such an extreme shift in the MLCer’s personality. They destroy themselves. They are driven to.
We LBS get caught in our beliefs. Ones that have served us. Ones that are quite valid for most other situations. Yet, as you well know, MLC is not like any other situation. MLCers are near completely emotionally and irrationally driven, with little rational or reasoned direction. In this case, past does not predicate the future.
Indeed remove rose coloured glasses, no need to sully anything though. For there is a risk or trap if not careful. Let go the future directly, not through tarnishing the past. The past is immutable, accept it. The future unknown, let it reveal itself.
I’ve invested enormous time into considering my past and futures as well. (Note, past and futures. Singular and plural. One past. Many possible futures.) Eventually one accepts. Living in the present bring peace. Invest the bulk of your time in the present moment.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
Yes, MLC really exists, but just like all personality disorders, crisis situations etc. we cannot help them, as long as the person in question does not want to be helped. Letting go is the only option.
Amen.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
Stella's story, and the advice you give her, makes me relive everything from the very beginning, but now I'm obviously much stronger, and I can look at it rationally, which is huge progress.
Acceptance is emotional understanding. Seeing the rational within what at first is chaos.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I now choose resolutely for my own happiness and that of my children, because they too have been the victims for 3 years now of a Father who has let them go through an emotional hell, and a mom who has perhaps approved his behavior for too long, simply because he is not “himself”.
You did fine Eagle. You needed to progress as you did. Have faith. Your path was required, as you walked it, for a grand reason. You’d not be who you are right now, if you walked it differently.
The past is immutable and necessary. Invest into the here and now. Look, hope, plan, and move towards a brighter future.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
It won’t always be easy but I want a future again and to have a future I know this is the only way to move forward.
You’ve always had a future. It’s just feels different as you’ve been letting go your wanted imagined future with G.
Stand tall my dear. You are doing great, and have a multitude of possibilities before you. Always have. It’s wonderful to witness you starting to see them.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I do not believe you were ever the backup plan. Most LBS are not. He has been nothing but honest with you in the process but you chose not to listen to him saying oh that’s the MLC talking. That’s why IMO this board can get people stuck.
I believe most LBS are a backup plan. Not a well thought out, rational, realized, sitting on the shelf, plan B; more a fallback if things all fall apart. A safety net, like LH wisely and correctly stated.
If LBS are not considered a safety net or plan B, the removal of such would not matter.
If Eagle was never a plan, why did her H return.
Eagle, in my opinion, you’ve never been stuck. You have been moving forward. And quite well.
Originally Posted by LH19
Lastly I’m curious I read on Stella’s thread you told her to listen to the people on here because they are giving her great advice. Then you basically tell her to ignore it until she’s ready. Why would you tell her that knowing how much more pain she will likely go through?
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I don’t tell her to ignore it. I tell her to take it with her in the process she is going through. I don’t know how it felt for you but I know many, when they got the advice, they don’t want to follow all of it, or do it step by step, simply because they are not ready yet. And that’s ok. You need to do it at your own pace. Pressure is not a good way to act either. Some of them can do this fairly quick, I remember El took on the advice quickly, but that doesn’t mean that the pain is less of will go away. All I said to her, do what you feel is right for you, since you are the most important person in this process now. That’s all.
We all need to experience our pain. There is no shortcut. However, it can be unnecessarily extended. Well, perhaps not unnecessarily. Just as everyone requires a certain amount of understanding and rationalizing before being able to let go, everyone requires a level of experienced pain as well. We all need to touch the hot stove, no matter how many warnings.
We only control ourselves. And one will choose when they follow the advice of those that have come before.
Originally Posted by LH19
For the record I do believe that everyone here typically learns the hard way.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
I'm not sure I agree with the implication of the 'typically learns the hard way' statement…
Originally Posted by LH19
BF I agree with you that you the greatest teacher is pain. As I said I believe our jobs as vets are to minimize the pain. I also agree that it’s a divorce busting website and everyone is presumably here to save their marriage. Fortunately the advice we give both reduces the pain and gives you the best chance to save your marriage. If you notice not many people here save their marriage because they have a difficult time DBing. Anyways one way or another we all survive.
Awesome discussion.
It’s not just here that everyone “learns the hard way”. That is true everywhere.
However, it’s not learning.
Learning can come the easy way or the hard way. Growth is always the hard way.
Pain is fantastic motivator, it is horrible teacher. Experience is the great teacher, not pain. And a lot of experience comes from our interaction with our pain and feedback of life.
One needs to see clearly to make choices to direct their path. Limit their pain, if you will.
All personal growth is painful. We only grow when out of our comfort zone. And being out of our comfort zone is scary, painful, intimidating, and so on. Everything and anything but comfortable. That is the realm of experience gaining and learning.
One can learn (or not) from other’s experience. Listen and apply the counterintuitive advice and wisdom of others. In this application there will be growth, oftentimes painful and unwanted. Ah, such is all growth.
As a vet… Ha, I suppose I am. My experience and wisdom was hard-earned.
As a vet, I freely share my views and beliefs and thoughts. I encourage those to listen to all advice and yet not necessarily heed all advice, for they must travel their path. Plenty of advice first sounds wrong to the one receiving it. Emotional pain is such a counterintuitive journey. Eventually folks find their way. Us fellow travellers compassionately encouraging and inspiring where we can.
It’s not the pain that teaches. It is a indicator of growth. Lean into the pain, and listen to the wisdom of others. Consider their words. And when one is ready, apply them.
That application is either for or against. Advice may not be applicable to someone’s situation. Or applicable for the moment. Everyone know their situation best, for they are living it. Either way, growth happens. Experience is gained. Lessons are learnt. Wisdom accumulates.
That being said, for those starting out, realize where you are. Listen and apply. If there is a large consensus of agreement of fellow travellers in a certain path or advice, consider it carefully. I’m not a proponent of blind faith. I do encourage having faith and following the wisdom of the compassionate folks here. All while, seeking understanding and rationalization of why to do so. An understanding and belief in why and what you do and live.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
LH, I agree with you about our role here as vets. Sadly, it takes so long to unwind, to learn how to detach. Our exes have the jump on us in that department, for sure, whether or not they've added a third party to the mix.
I don't know how to jump start that for someone coming here. The pre-programming is too strong to go cold turkey.
Yes, our pre-programming is very strong. You well know the poison I needed to transmute.
My XW is a vanisher. Lucky. Now looking back. At the time, I’d have given anything for a more common clinger. J was so off the rails. A rarity, ever for here. I so wanted the normal MLCer (haha, as if there is such a thing). As I said, lucky.
For what it’s worth, at first we are reprogramming ourselves. Basically, fighting against years and years of ingrained life experience. Fighting begets fighting. We fight back, against our efforts.
I found my path early. It’s complimentary programming, not re-programming. It’s building upon who we are. Finding peace. Strengthening our beliefs and convictions that serve. And letting go that which doesn’t. Understanding, rationalizing, empathizing, being compassionate, and so on.
How to jump start for someone. We can’t. All we can do is inspire and encourage. Detachment is the single best step forward. And it is a big one. I do so encourage folks to heed the wise suggestions of focus on you, be a gray rock, go dim, etc.
My path was greatly affected by who I am. I’m a technician by trade. A rather technical and logically oriented guy, who maintained a squishy heart through out this. I heeded the advice. Choose better not bitter. Eventually blocked J on FB. And so on. I saw the wisdom of that. And I knew I wanted it; and I absolutely did not feel like I did. I hated it actually. Absolutely detested the phrase “fired from the role of husband”. Lol.
Feelings are fleeting. A tenet I’ve encouraged plenty. I delved within and brought forth my convictions and live them. Let feeling flit, for they are temporary.
I went cold turkey. It hurt horribly. It passed. I was blessed. And I feel great. (Positive values encourage and reinforce positive feelings and thoughts.)
Once one finds the courage to let go that which they cannot change, they will find peace.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
you know what, it just struck me that we LBSes are not the back up plan - we are the taken for granted spouse whom the MLCr counts on to be right where we were left.
That's why they get so freaked out and (in my ex's case) furious when we refuse to play that game.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
you know what, it just struck me that we LBSes are not the back up plan - we are the taken for granted spouse whom the MLCr counts on to be right where we were left.
That's why they get so freaked out and (in my ex's case) furious when we refuse to play that game.
you know what, it just struck me that we LBSes are not the back up plan - we are the taken for granted spouse whom the MLCr counts on to be right where we were left.
That's why they get so freaked out and (in my ex's case) furious when we refuse to play that game.
Isn’t that the definition of back up plan?
not my definition. back up plan implies if something else doesn't work out they will return. I do not think that is universally true. I can only speak for my case. I believe my exh thought he could go off and do whatever he wanted and I would be right where he left me, not because he wanted me, but because he took for granted that I would always be around. I think for him, and many others like him, they feel that time exists in parallel. We stay on course while they go off and do whatever they want, with whomever they want. they (may) have zero intention of coming back, but they still assume we will always want them back. His ego couldn't take it when he realized that wasn't happening.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
If LBS are not considered a safety net or plan B, the removal of such would not matter.
This statement was made by me on Stella's thread. Her STBXH is still trying to keep her attached by reaching out, FB likes etc. As I stated IMO most aren't. Doesn't mean they won't become it some day.
Originally Posted by DnJ
If Eagle was never a plan, why did her H return.
Her STBXH was clear his return was temporary and he as far as I can tell never wavered from it. In fact he would discuss going back to OW on walks and cuddle time.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Eagle, in my opinion, you’ve never been stuck. You have been moving forward. And quite well.
I respectfully disagree. It's just my opinion but it feels like Ground Hog's day on this thread.
you know what, it just struck me that we LBSes are not the back up plan - we are the taken for granted spouse whom the MLCr counts on to be right where we were left.
That's why they get so freaked out and (in my ex's case) furious when we refuse to play that game.
Isn’t that the definition of back up plan?
not my definition. back up plan implies if something else doesn't work out they will return. I do not think that is universally true. I can only speak for my case. I believe my exh thought he could go off and do whatever he wanted and I would be right where he left me, not because he wanted me, but because he took for granted that I would always be around. I think for him, and many others like him, they feel that time exists in parallel. We stay on course while they go off and do whatever they want, with whomever they want. they (may) have zero intention of coming back, but they still assume we will always want them back. His ego couldn't take it when he realized that wasn't happening.
I know it's Monday morning but again isn't that the definition of plan b? What am I missing lol?
I think what LH is trying to say is that most people are never plan B for the long term. In Eagles case, she was there while he needed to figure out his next step with OW. The door was open, he came home, took what he needed while he was figuring out what actual plan B was or how to get back to his current plan A which was OW. He is operating without a long term plan B.
Eagle, I know this could be incredibly painful. But I feel like now you are seeing things for what they really are and I am so happy to see you aren’t taking the emotional beating anymore and are going to protect yourself .
He may be crossing your boundary of no contact, but you can chose not to respond. Just remember that.
Sounds like you all went somewhere, like a resort. Or was it more a road trip? I’m sure it was good food, good times, and good memories crafted.