If he is reaching out to your children with a sincere interest on how they are doing and asking about their grades this is what you want. This is 100 percent what he should be doing. As long as he is not attacking them with their responses then you should stay out of it. I can’t tell you how many women I have gone out on dates with who’s ex’s don’t even know what schools their kids go to or grades they are in.
To give you a bit of background of the past weeks. 2 weeks ago MLC H lashed out to S17 that he could not be his son with the grades he currently has. 1.5 weeks ago MLC H lashed out to S14 because of 1 bad test he made. He afterwards went upstairs, asked S17 and twin brother S14 to come out of their room and lashed out to all 3 of them that they couldn't be his sons with such grades and he even showed them the middle finger with both hands. So no, his interest is definitely not sincere, it is out of guilt.
I could not imagine my F saying to me I'm not his child because....these are very harsh words to say to a kid.
The fact he told them he doesn't want to know anything anymore about their education, exactely 1 week ago, and now asks how they are doing shows how he is cycling again.
And I really don't say this in a bitter tone, absolutely not. I feel for him but I also want to protect my children from being hurt again.
They prefer not to hear about him for now but they also don't want to not send a reply since they want to show respect. And that is indeed a nice gesture of them. They were thaught well in that aspect.
Originally Posted by LH19
I get the sense that you struggle with boundaries so feel free to run your boundaries by the board.
Spot on. I will definitely always ask for help as for me this is not easy indeed. Why does he break the boundary again? (not towards me but towards the children) We clearly agreed to have no contact for a few weeks to give the children some rest.
well, let's think about that ... they always test and push. think of a three year old running amok. that's what the average MLCr reminds me of, a three year old who is going to keep touching the stove until he finally gets burned.
Burn him.
He's using the kids to test your NC boundary.
That's my take.
He wants to get you into the mix, triangulating is a specialty of theirs. DON'T FALL FOR IT. Advise your kids on the side if you must, if they come to you for guidance, but don't allow yourself to be dragged in.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
People often say things out of frustration and anger. After time and space he had some time to think about it and is doing the right thing and IMO opinion that’s a good thing. If he becomes belligerent again then you can tell your children to not respond.
If you feel you had a no contact agreement for a few weeks and he violated your agreement then go ahead and send him a message about it. Again I’m not clear what is actually the problem with it and that is a hill you want to die on.
I get and completely understand you want no contact with him but he is their father and should continue to foster a relationship and be concerned about their grades as long as he is handling it in adult like fashion. The minute that stops then you can discuss with your kids about NC.
Teaching them how to enforce their own healthy boundaries with ex might be useful at their age.
If ex is on attack in a really inappropriate way, teach those boys how to respectfully remove themselves from a hostile abuse situation. If they start getting bombarded by texts of that nature , teach them to say “ if we can’t have a respectful non-hostile conversation, I am going to put my phone on so not disturb for a while and maybe later when you are calmer, we can have an calm constructive conversation about this” or something to that effect.
It seems as if for years to come they are going to need to have to learn to have boundaries with their father, even as grown adults. Now is a really good time to start. Respectful boundaries are such an important lesson I wish I knew more about when i was younger
My understanding Eagle is that you and exh agreed NC between each other, right?
My previous response was predicated on that belief and that you believe he's now contacting your children to try to get a rise out of you.
Agree 100% with G, it's time for the boys to start fostering their own relationship with their Dad. Since he's abusive, definitely guide them through it, but you may also want to set up counseling for them so that a neutral third party can also help guide them. The boys need to know that they have the power to decide what and how much contact they have with their father. 14 is a little young, but the older son at 17 is fast approaching an age where he will realize he has that power and start using it. The trick is teaching them to use it wisely, not vindictively, as kids sometimes do when they're first learning about how to set boundaries with toxic people.
That's another reason to get a counselor involved.
Last edited by bttrfly; 02/19/2212:34 PM.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
He wants to get you into the mix, triangulating is a specialty of theirs. DON'T FALL FOR IT. Advise your kids on the side if you must, if they come to you for guidance, but don't allow yourself to be dragged in.
Thanks Bttrfly. This is what I think as well. I have done as you stated, They asked how to respond so I gave them advice from the side for now.
Originally Posted by LH19
If you feel you had a no contact agreement for a few weeks and he violated your agreement then go ahead and send him a message about it. Again I’m not clear what is actually the problem with it and that is a hill you want to die on.
LH, I don't make a problem here, I only ask for some advice on how to handle things as I'm struggling with the fact that when boundaries are made you need to stick to them, but this is kind of a different situation.
Originally Posted by LH19
I get and completely understand you want no contact with him but he is their father and should continue to foster a relationship and be concerned about their grades as long as he is handling it in adult like fashion. The minute that stops then you can discuss with your kids about NC.
As you can see in my last response he is not handling things like a proper adult and father should. He has crossed some serious lines, not only for the past weeks he's been home, but for 3 years already. That is why we made an agreement and that was, no contact with any of us for a few weeks, yet he is breaking that boundary again.
LH, I want them to have a good R with their father, but with a F who genuinely shows interest in them, not because he wants to look good.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
My understanding Eagle is that you and exh agreed NC between each other, right?
Correct B.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Teaching them how to enforce their own healthy boundaries with ex might be useful at their age.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Agree 100% with G, it's time for the boys to start fostering their own relationship with their Dad. Since he's abusive, definitely guide them through it, but you may also want to set up counseling for them so that a neutral third party can also help guide them. The boys need to know that they have the power to decide what and how much contact they have with their father. 14 is a little young, but the older son at 17 is fast approaching an age where he will realize he has that power and start using it. The trick is teaching them to use it wisely, not vindictively, as kids sometimes do when they're first learning about how to set boundaries with toxic people.
That's another reason to get a counselor involved.
Exactly G and B. This is what I want them to teach, and since I'm in the middle it is very difficult for me to get involved in a neutral way so I decided last week to get a counselor for them. They each need a different one (no counselor is willing to see each of them, only one at a time)
Both S14 want to go, S17 is not willing to (although he would need it the most)
I have found two good counselors, so both S14 will start with therapy within 2 weeks.
Any ideas on how to convince S17 it would be a good thing for him to go?
1) you don’t have to convince S17. He just needs to know the offer is always there on the table for counseling
2) I’m going to be brutally honest here and I apologize in advance. Boundaries are going to take longer for your H to respect. Because they have been so so weak. He says the right thing, and he’s allowed to come back through the door. You allow him to cuddle with you and talk about OW. You have allowed him to be abusive towards you under the guise of having to treat lightly because he is in his alter ego. He knows he can trounce on you and you will give in with the right words without having to prove much . Your kids as well have seen this. The best way to teach your kids is to model them. And I think you can’t go dramatic on them. He will call BS.
You need to enforce boundaries where he talks about other woman or talks abusingly to you, you immediately remove yourself from the situation. Before letting him anywhere back through that door, you need to consistent long term proof of change. That the monster isn’t coming around anymore and isn’t allowed back.
Best way to teach your kids is to model it. The allow for the counselor to help guide them on having healthy boundaries with their father. Do you have a counselor for yourself to help you with the same ?
Oh my, H is certainly flipping and flopping about, and lashing out. Over these three years you have guided your boys, and been an excellent role model; they have been watching.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
Do I intervene, or is this not a boundary I can come in between?
As you wisely see and stated, this is not your boundary, and your direct actions would be intervening.
The required boundary is from sons. The needed boundary is for them and their health.
You have explained MLC to the boys before. They understand their Dad. However, they can still be hurt be such disrespectful actions and words.
Talk to your boys. Explain how over the top Dad was, how irrational it is to say poor grades equate to not being a son anymore.
Ask the boys what they want. I suspect they would like no contact; especially when Dad is off on such an emotional trek. This is not new to them. At 14 and 17 they can decide if they see or talk to Dad. Support their decision, as I know you will.
They can love Dad, and not like him. It’s ok. It’s also ok to not see him, until they want too. MLC H is behaving like a rebellious teen, again. They need to treat him as such. It’s unfortunate when our kids need to be the adult in the room. However, when dealing with a crisis parent, they need to put on their life preserver and get away from the crazy storm.
The boundary need not be stated. It could be though, perhaps something like:
Dad, I was hurt when you yelled at me over school grades and told me I am no longer your son. Such disrespectful behaviour will not be tolerated. When you speak to me like that, I will hang up the phone, leave the room, or block your number.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
1) you don’t have to convince S17. He just needs to know the offer is always there on the table for counseling
OK, He knows, so he can come to me at any time if he wants to start with it.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
2) I’m going to be brutally honest here and I apologize in advance. Boundaries are going to take longer for your H to respect. Because they have been so so weak. He says the right thing, and he’s allowed to come back through the door. You allow him to cuddle with you and talk about OW. You have allowed him to be abusive towards you under the guise of having to treat lightly because he is in his alter ego. He knows he can trounce on you and you will give in with the right words without having to prove much . Your kids as well have seen this. The best way to teach your kids is to model them. And I think you can’t go dramatic on them. He will call BS.
You need to enforce boundaries where he talks about other woman or talks abusingly to you, you immediately remove yourself from the situation. Before letting him anywhere back through that door, you need to consistent long term proof of change. That the monster isn’t coming around anymore and isn’t allowed back.
No need to apologize G. I totally agree with the fact that I've let him and his alter ego go too far in recent weeks. I'm not going to lie, it's much easier to set boundaries when you see him completely gone crazy than the constant cycling. I have been able to set up boundaries the past years in a proper way, the past weeks I failed, until you all warned me it went too far and I acted accordingly.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Best way to teach your kids is to model it. The allow for the counselor to help guide them on having healthy boundaries with their father. Do you have a counselor for yourself to help you with the same ?
This is what I'm doing again, as I used to do in the past. I too have an appointment again with a counselor I've seen shortly after BD and went about a year then.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Oh my, H is certainly flipping and flopping about, and lashing out. Over these three years you have guided your boys, and been an excellent role model; they have been watching.
I know I have done the best I could, seen the great R I have with them. Unfortunately the past 3 weeks they have seen and heard things they shouldn't have and I regret myself for letting him go too far. I had to react the first time he lashed out. I've learned my lesson.
I decided to take them out for an evening one by one. Last week I went with S14 to a Burger Bar and afterwards to the movies in 4D, fantastic experience. S14 told me 4 to 5 times what a great evening he had and that we need to do that more often, just the two us.
Yesterday it was S17's turn. S17 likes good food so we went to a nice restaurant. Afterwards we went for a walk and when we came home we listened to music together with S14's in the living room. We truly had such a great evening.
Next week it S14's turn.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Ask the boys what they want. I suspect they would like no contact; especially when Dad is off on such an emotional trek. This is not new to them. At 14 and 17 they can decide if they see or talk to Dad. Support their decision, as I know you will.
They can love Dad, and not like him. It’s ok. It’s also ok to not see him, until they want too. MLC H is behaving like a rebellious teen, again. They need to treat him as such. It’s unfortunate when our kids need to be the adult in the room. However, when dealing with a crisis parent, they need to put on their life preserver and get away from the crazy storm.
The boundary need not be stated. It could be though, perhaps something like:
Dad, I was hurt when you yelled at me over school grades and told me I am no longer your son. Such disrespectful behaviour will not be tolerated. When you speak to me like that, I will hang up the phone, leave the room, or block your number.D
This is what S14's want, no contact. S17 is not sure yet. He is thinking about it. I know S14's are afraid of him, afraid of telling him they don't want to see him for now. S14 told me he will text his F when he asks to come over, he doesn't want to tell him since he is afraid of his reaction, even over the phone. He will text he prefers not to see him for now, and he will wait until he goes to the counselor to talk about it. Then he will see from there. I said if that is what you want that is just fine.
Any ideas on how to convince S17 it would be a good thing for him to go?
I can only share what my research yielded when my son was that age: you can't.
I have a dear, close friend who is a psychologist, phd and all ... asked a second psychologist. asked a counselor. asked his guidance counselor. i think I got 5 different opinions, all saying that forcing counseling would only delay him finally getting help when he needed it later. So, I didn't. You have something that I didn't: two brothers willing to go. My hope and sense is that the younger ones will pave the way - learn some tricks and the older one, if observant, will benefit.
I strongly suggest telling your older son that if he ever changes his mind, you want him to know that resource is ALWAYS available to him and leave it at that. Continue to model the kind of behaviour you want them to learn.
xoxoxo
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
