Can I even trust my own judgement anymore? Lots of questions rolling around inside my head this morning.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Also, one final thought: because one person is untrustworthy doesn't mean ALL people are untrustworthy.
Ok maybe it was two final thoughts, because there's also this: You don't need to trust anyone else. You need to learn to re-trust yourself. You've been given the gift of time. How will you use it?
Does this make sense?
I struggle with this myself. Now I'm 6 years or so out and thoroughly divorced. Dated a couple of women, the last one of whom did quite the number on my ability to trust. Been alone for a bit over a year since then (well, there's the cat - but he doesn't "quite" count).
As bttrfly says though, trusting yourself and knowing who you are, what your values are and the fact that having someone in your life isn't necessary is an important step. You're still in the thick of things right now Stella - so one issue at a time. Our friend DnJ will often say - especially since it applies to his job - "Don't try to solve the problem en route" - or something like that.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I found that I was pretty angry for the whole day and felt like calling him to tell him what a complete idiot he his being. Its just hard so hard to understand the choices that the MLCer makes. I guess because it is nothing I would ever do and I have always been a open and honest person. H was my person to turn to, I guess I was not his. If he loved me as deeply as I love him, he would not be doing this. The monster I saw over the summer, so filled with anger and hate towards me.. WTF???
I have spent some time thinking back over the last few years to try and figure out when H started down this road. I am not really sure. His Dad passed away in 2009, H was only 35 then. His Dad did not have a grave marker for many years, as he was buried next to his twin sister. Someone in the family finally had a marker made, H has been visiting his grave on Fathers day since he died. Almost like he was making up for lost time with him.
H has 2 step brothers, that we don't know that well. H's Dad adopted him when he married his mom, but H always felt like a outsider. because he was adopted. I would always encourage him to seek relationships with his family, but he always kept to the out skirts, with the exception of his cousin. I know that all of this bother H over the years, we had many conversations about it.
Grandma was his rock, she past last December. Her mind started to go about a year prior to her death. Again, H and I talked alot about Grandma and her health and what she ment to him. He talked about it all of the time. I guess I can see that he started to bottle it up a little 10 to 12 months before she passed.
I guess, I just don't understand the whole A aspect of MLC. This just cuts me the deepest. H and I talked all the time, we knew couples that went through A's. We both saw the destuction and pain it caused close friends. He always believed and swore he would never do this, he never saw the point in them. We (I thought) were always on the same page on the journy of our life together. To turn so completely away from me and cut me out of his life like this, to replace me with that disgusting OW. How does a person come back from that? He says he is in love, what happen to love he felt for me?
Just kind of rambling this mornig.
My taste in men... my first long term boyfriend.. OMG, I would not give him the time of day, today. The secound one, he was a con man.. ugh thats a long story.. H and I were friends while I was dating that guy. H did not like him, and had no problem telling me. Right now I can't see past H to even think about other men, just goes against everything I believe in right now.
I guess, I just don't understand the whole A aspect of MLC. This just cuts me the deepest. H and I talked all the time, we knew couples that went through A's. We both saw the destuction and pain it caused close friends. He always believed and swore he would never do this, he never saw the point in them. We (I thought) were always on the same page on the journy of our life together. To turn so completely away from me and cut me out of his life like this, to replace me with that disgusting OW. How does a person come back from that? He says he is in love, what happen to love he felt for me?
((Stella)) One thing you will learn over time is that so many stories are so very alike. It's like bttrfly said - there must be some sort of "kit" that comes with all the lines to say.
My xW's father was a cheater and everyone knew. Her mother stuck by him but my xW knew how much it hurt her over and over and over again. She swore she would never cheat on me and bragged about how faithful she was. When acquaintances were found to have cheated she was very much "holier than thou" and said that she was disgusted by the person and their actions and generally cut them out of her life.
Once she crossed the line from what I assume was an emotional affair with OM to physical, then the cold "shark eyes" and arrogance came to the forefront. It's like in that "Men in Black" movie where there's the cockroach alien inside the "Edgar Suit"
She's still with OM all these years later and I believe tries to spin the story that she never cheated which sadly most people really don't care about and many I'm sure don't believe. I've not cared what she says to who for many years although as I'm sure you can understand it bothered me a lot at the beginning.
One thing that might perhaps be helpful to think about and I think is going to be the case in your situation, is that people with the fundamental character flaw that allows them to cheat get worse over time. My father-in-law was a charming cheerful man when I met him in his 60s. In his 70s and 80s he was just grossly creepy.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Its just hard so hard to understand the choices that the MLCer makes.
Realize these are irrational choices that are emotionally driven. H doesn’t understand them either.
Originally Posted by Stella20
I guess because it is nothing I would ever do and I have always been a open and honest person. H was my person to turn to, I guess I was not his. If he loved me as deeply as I love him, he would not be doing this. The monster I saw over the summer, so filled with anger and hate towards me.. WTF???
It’s surprising what a person will do when in ceaseless pain and torment.
Consider us LBS, we are very hurt, and at first we’d crawl on broken glass to have our spouse back. Almost anything to go back to normal and good night sleeps again. MLC is a much worse pain.
Two more caring and gentle guidances along your journey:
Do not demonize H. He is a person. He is behaving badly, not a bad person.
You will be amazed at what you would/will do. And it depends on your choices and the path you walk. For example, people are amazed that I forgive J. Many a folk have said they’d never forgive their wife if she did what XW did to me and the kids. I used to believe and think like that too. Funny thing, when you walk in the light, find compassion, and unconditional love. (You probably think I’m referring to my W/XW. Only partly, remember your path is about you. Compassion, forgiveness, and love of self must exist before one can bestow it upon another.)
Originally Posted by Stella20
I guess, I just don't understand the whole A aspect of MLC. This just cuts me the deepest. H and I talked all the time, we knew couples that went through A's. We both saw the destuction and pain it caused close friends. He always believed and swore he would never do this, he never saw the point in them. We (I thought) were always on the same page on the journy of our life together. To turn so completely away from me and cut me out of his life like this, to replace me with that disgusting OW. How does a person come back from that?
My W and I were like that as well. J hated unfaithfulness and affairs. She even ended some friendships due to them cheating on their spouse. I had complete faith and trust in her. The implosion of my world when she made her grand announcement, flaunted her affair, tossed aside the kids, and moved out, was absolutely incredulous. In less than three hours she went from Thanksgiving supper to gone.
I do understand and empathize with how much hurt the affair is causing you. Believe me, in time, their illicit tryst will have no power over you, and no longer hurt. Keep your heart soft and squishy, as counterintuitive and as wrong as that presently feels.
An affair is based upon running away from their pain; it’s not running to that person. Most often the MLCer affairs down. Both AP and MLCer are hurt and emotionally stunted; emotionally mature and healed folk do not cheat and have affairs. The affair partner is being used, and usually so is the MLCer. This not a relationship built upon respect, trust, honour, or love. For they do not have these qualities within them and therefore can bestow upon anyone. This is a relationship built upon lies, deceit, desire, and escaping.
The affair has absolutely nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with H. OW is a symptom. She was just handy. If it wasn’t her, someone else would have sufficed. That is not love or respect.
Let’s say I was the worst husband on the planet. That still doesn’t give cause for J to have an affair. Look at how hurt the LBS is, we do not find someone to ease our pain. We heal, divorce, and then perhaps look towards another R. It is so sad and common that the one being cheated on feels and believes they did something wrong.
MLCers project the cause of their pain, torment, frustration, depression, anger, etc, upon their loving spouse. The actual cause is some long ago buried trauma from a person of authority, which our once rational and loving spouse doesn’t realize is consuming them. The emotional forces within them are incredible and ceaseless. They try all manner of things to deaden the pain.
Try after try fail, all the while we the unsuspecting loving loyal spouse is living happy and blissfully unaware. Our spouse still walks, talks, and behaves like our spouse. Retirement plans are still discussed. Vacations, major purchases, life, all still happens. Yet, within our spouse rages a force they cannot realize.
Slowly their attention turns to us. So many failed tried remedies, yet we are here. They project their emotions towards us, instead of their long ago authority figure. We become emotionally that person to them. Most often the authority figure is their parent(s). With their pain and torment now incorrectly targeted upon their spouse, it reinforces their emotions and justifications, and they grow to believe it.
Eventually it all boils overs. And kaboom. Bomb drop. Our spouse goes into full running mode of their crisis. They entered their crisis many months prior to this display. By this point, everything they have been trying has failed - and it’s our fault! To them it is our fault for everything going wrong in their life. If they left, everything would be fine. And so on, and so on. It’s all justification and projection.
Tried remedies did not work. The MLCer turns to vices. Immoral, illicit, illegal, anything to feel a rush. To feel alive. To deaden their pain. To tantalize them for a while and take their attention from their inner torment. Lots spend money, often burning through a lifetime of savings. Many turn to alcohol and drugs. Risky behaviours and activities are undertaken to feel something - fast cars, fast women.
An affair is staggeringly common. These hurt folks equate sex with happiness. And they are completely looking externally, so it follows an affair partner is the answer.
Space and time. The MLCer needs it, and will take it. They must run from us, their projected cause of their torment. In time, with no interference from, no interaction with us, the MLCer might realize that they still are in torment, and we haven’t been involved for a long time. Therefore we cannot be the cause of their pain. Then, perhaps, they start to look within and discover their actual trauma and start to deal with it.
I believe most do eventually realize we are not the cause. But damage done. Plenty of LBS by then have moved on. Plenty of MLCers might realize yet will not take the necessary steps towards healing. Lots are embroiled within their affair relationship and end up living a sad and unhappy life. And others are turned onto their new path and just keep running, eventually tiring and remaining with whichever OW1,2,3,x they are with or just live alone.
Interestingly, the role of us LBS as their “parent” or authority figure to lash out to and rebel against, is thrust upon the affair partner. It’s an unhealthy relationship, where the MLCer is the child and the AP is their parent (emotionally). Hence why they affair down, and really far down. They cannot handle rejection from their authority figure.
J told me that OM let her get away with anything she wanted. She was so happy! A clear rebelling against her parent’s terrible treatment of her. And equally clear how I was in her “parent” role.
In time, if the stars align, the affair partner serves their purpose. The MLCer pushes against them. Lashing out, rebelling, yelling at the “one” who abused or tormented them so long ago. Plenty of drama, hurt feelings, and so on. This release allows the MLCer to see within themselves. If they are ready and they can remain single long enough they start a better path.
Originally Posted by Stella20
He says he is in love, what happen to love he felt for me?
H is not in love with OW. He is incapable of love. He is infatuated.
Infatuation is a short-lived desire. For most healthy people it lasts 9 to 18 months. Usually feelings, thoughts, and beliefs of love take hold during this time and then burn slower like coals in what was a blaze of passion.
Infatuation for a person in an emotional crisis can last double or triple as long. The desire poisoning them from such a long duration. Infatuation is not suppose to be forever; it is a stress upon the body. Like an addict, if the MLCer breaks up or the AP breaks up, they will need to transmute and cleanse themselves of that poison. Purge their affair from themselves.
The old love they feel for us. It is buried within them. They found indifference towards us, just as we find indifference towards them. And indifference is not forever. It does unwind. If they do their inner work, heal, grow, and such, their love will return; just as our’s does.
MLCers are running. My W is running from her life, from me, from her kids, from her friends, from her pets. All incorrectly associated and linked to her pain. As MLCers settle they reconnect in the opposite order of leaving and destruction caused. Pets, friends, kids, spouse.
A MLCer’s journey is an emotional one, and much irrational. It’s is impossible to predict anyone’s outcome, for we do not the extent of their trauma nor their upbringing. And no one can see enough to extrapolate this. Yet, there is a somewhat commonality they all do seem to follow.
Better not bitter. It’s all for you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi Andrew, Yes, I remember very well, when H crossed the line from EA to PA. Not that I knew it at the time. But when he came home from his yearly trip, he had changed. That was May 2021. He felt different, like he went inside himself and wasn't the same happy, fun loving man he had been all the years before. I asked him after he came home, if something had happened on his trip that he wanted to talk about. Someone had posted a photo of him standing next to OW in a pool, and the picture bothered me, the look on her face. In fact that was the first question I asked him was why she was hanging out with them..
Over the next month, whenever I asked what was wrong, h just said it was work, nothing was wrong. blah blah blah...after it came out I scoured the internet for books and articles on affairs. Tried to get H to read stuff, but he would tell me that all of the stuff I sent to him just made it worse, and didn't help him. He had feelings for her had fell in love. This is when the drinking exploded. All the while making me believe that he was cutting contact, but was on the fence. Oh the lies, and lies and lies. It was a living hell. He would start fights with me, we never use to fight.
But yes, they all seem to follow the same patterns after BD. I should have trusted my gut, my gut was telling me it was all a lie. I did not want to believe it. I was despertly clinging to my M. Well that didn't work, nothing I did over that 6 month period worked. I should have kicked him out in June on BD. But he lied to me and I lied to myself. I so wanted to despertly believe we would make it through his A, and it was just a bump in the road that we could work through. He check out emotionally on me, long before it turned to a PA. I see it now, not sure it would have made a difference if I would have seen it then??
Never thought that within a year from BD, that we would be D'ed. As of now final court date is set for 6-6-22, Bd was 6-11-21. Like I have said before, it just feels like it is moving too fast for me. I know I can't stop it, and need to just keep moving forward.
When I think back over this last summer, and remember how he acted, and the fights he started, then the times when he would seem to be coming back to the M only to turn away again. All just a complete mind F***.... I can see his struggle now, at the time I just thought I was losing my mind. Makes me angry, yet sad for how lost he was and is.
When I think back over this last summer, and remember how he acted, and the fights he started, then the times when he would seem to be coming back to the M only to turn away again. All just a complete mind F***.... I can see his struggle now, at the time I just thought I was losing my mind. Makes me angry, yet sad for how lost he was and is.
Reading your account of the trajectory of your marriage is so eerie Stella. I could have written it about me and XH. Emotionally checking out but then denying it when you ask about it...providing a reason that seems plausible but doesn't quite explain it. And then the anger and "hate"...when it all comes out...I remember being so confused and incredulous at his attitude towards me. In February, we'd gone to a boat show on the mainland and had looked at boats...daydreaming about which one we might buy after retirement...one month later...his running behaviour started and by the time I found out what was going on, he was so so so angry and when I looked in his eyes, I saw nothing but contempt. You would think that I was the one who had cheated on him. It was just so unbelievable. To this day, I still find it hard to believe. I was not the perfect wife, by any stretch of the imagination, but I always supported him in anything he wanted to do and I loved him unconditionally...even when he was a moody, irritable jerk and had all of us walking on egg shells. I was not oblivious...I knew he was going through something...I just thought it was chronic pain from Shingles...not chronic pain from a f'd up psyche.
Originally Posted by Andrew
One thing that might perhaps be helpful to think about and I think is going to be the case in your situation, is that people with the fundamental character flaw that allows them to cheat get worse over time. My father-in-law was a charming cheerful man when I met him in his 60s. In his 70s and 80s he was just grossly creepy.
OMG... This is my XFIL to a tee. My D14 told me on Wednesday that she was sitting with him at her dad's wedding and was talking to her aunt who is a nurse. She told her aunt she thinks she might like to be a nurse one day too and her grandfather said something to the effect that he wished he was looked after by nurses who look like them (aunt is in her mid 20's). D14 said she was totally creeped out by how he said it. Ugh...one of my biggest sources of sadness is that my kids never got to meet my dad and their only experience of a grandfather is XFIL...serial cheater and womanizer. Gross.
Thanks DnJ, I keep reading over and over what you wrote. I know that H is not in love with OW, and that it is infatuation. That the A is a sympton, but yes it hurts like He!! to know he is shacking up with her and running all over as a couple. Being so public... why do they have to be so public with there R, it is so disrespectful to everyone.
Got a email from my ATTY with a notice of retainer for H. My ATTY said that H's ATTY is a good lawyer and "appreciates the value of trying to create agreement, rather than conflict. Has worked with him in hundreds of cases over the years and that overall he thingks this is going to work out reasonably well for me given the other available options. " What does that mean???
I think he means your Hs lawyer is a reasonable guy and will try for a fair settlement quickly and easily so you won’t rack up big lawyer fees. I think he’s implying that your husband good of got a dirt bag lawyer. Truthfully in all honesty it probably means nothing. All lawyers typically look out for themselves unless you know them.
Some MLCers find lawyers that will drag out the divorce. They seeks ones who encourage conflict and keep charging up those billable hours. If your MLCer has found a good lawyer, be thankful.
It sounds like H has a L who is reasonable like your’s. This is good on many fronts. Things won’t drag out needlessly, negotiating is possible and likely, both lawyers know and realize the business situation (the salary disparity and the resultant alimony), and the deal will be accepted by the courts.
In my locale, and probably your’s, the divorce agreement has to be reviewed and ruled as acceptable by the courts. Straightforward lawyers will produce a clear agreement. The law needs to be satisfied that each party had ample and fair representation.
When my lawyer first told me of W’s lawyer and how he was a sharp and good lawyer, I was so worried. However, my L explained that W needs proper guidance and representation. If she doesn’t get proper representation the courts could toss out any agreement and impose their own. Our settlement was arrived at fairly, was properly and clearly documented, and had several other supporting documentation. It passed through the courts and was judged legally binding without any incident.
Divorce, treat it like a business deal gone sideways. Lawyers do this stuff everyday. The fact the your lawyer has worked with H’s on 100’s of cases is good. They know each other, are experienced, and have “worked with” instead of battled or fought with. This legal wisdom is why you hired an lawyer.
As things progress and when the time comes: Consider your lawyer’s advice. Read over the agreement several times. Take a day or two to mull it over. Ask your L any questions you have. And sign once you are satisfied with the agreement. That is financially satisfied, not emotionally. Remember to stay businesslike dealing with the divorce.
Take care,
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks LH & DnJ, Thats kind of what I thought he ment. Just wanted to make sure. As you know this whole D process has me on edge. I am worried about my finacial future, before this I had no worries. I know H said that I can keep the house. I think that will be worked out in the 401k splits or alimony??? Not sure which would be better?? I wanted to either talk to H or my ATTY about a life ins. policy on D, because of the alimony. Thoughts? They way H is living right know, drinking, not eating healthy or taking care of himself. Also tonight it is snowing and blowing really bad in my area. Part of the highway is shut down, multiple car pile up. OW drives them around drunk all the time, complete idiot...what a chatch...
