Interesting stuff this weekend. My W and I have been getting along better, especially since I am a little more than a month into the “no pressure” campaign. We went to a wedding Saturday night and even had a babysitter. We were having a great time.
At the reception, W went to bathroom or somewhere, and I ended up talking with my Mom. Some background: my father died about seven years ago, and my Mom has not remarried. Also, she was pretty drunk, so the conversation flowed. The conversation went from classical music, to how my mom and dad would listen to classical music during sex (Bolero!), to the fact that my father lost the ability to have an erection in 1977 due to a disease that ended up killing him ten years later (schleroderma); to the fact that he loved sex and so did my mom. I asked her, out of curiosity, how often they would make love, and she said about once a week. About this time, W got back and my Mom said to her, “you’ve missed an interesting conversation. Your H asked me how often I used to have sex with F.” Well, you all know what happened then. A dark cloud covered W’s face, and she went from fun-loving W to quiet, pissed-off W.
On the ride home, I asked her if she’d had a good time, and she said, “yes, up to a point.” She berated me for asking my mom about sex-frequency, and asked me why I had done that. I told her that it was just part of a much bigger conversation with her about my dad and sex, which my Mom had initiated, but my W said that she didn’t trust me anymore. Most of the rest of the ride was in silence. She brought it up in bed, later, and I tried again to explain that it was just a logical progression of the conversation, but she didn’t believe me. She said it made her sad, and that she went from happy with me, to “repulsed” by me, in a second. I decided to stop arguing with her, and just play dead, so that it would give her time to cool down.
This morning, she confronted me again, and finally got a chance to tell her the basics of the conversation, but she still questioned why I had asked my mother about sexual frequency, rejecting my “flow of the conversation” explanation. I finally asked her why SHE thought I had asked my mom, and W said, “because you want further proof of how ‘abnormal’ our sex life is.” I assured her that was not the case, that I realized that, even according to TSSM, about 40 percent of couples were in our same boat, and that I had stopped trying to “prove my case” by numbers long ago, knowing that it didn’t make a difference to our personal situation. She said that I continued to pressure her (WHAT?), by not “letting go” of proving that our marriage was abnormal, as evidenced by me asking my Mom that question. She said that she had to know that I was all right with her saying “no” to me asking her for sex. Well, I haven’t asked for sex for months, I told her, because I was trying to give her room to work out whatever she needed to work out in order to feel comfortable with moving our physical relationship to the next level. But I assured her that, if she said no to one of my advances, that would be fine. She said that she hadn’t seen me doing anything that would make her believe this, and I reminded her that I had been listening to a lot of works by the Dalai Lama (thanks Dave) and reading some Epictetus and some other stuff (e.g. Schnarch), and that I thought I was achieving a particularly high level of “inner peace” about the whole physical intimacy thing.
She then started this whole academic discussion, saying that equating sex with love was a fairly recent phenomenon in human evolution, that she didn’t necessarily need to have a physical relationship with me to feel loved, but that she was “working on” getting to the point where she could provide it to me willingly so that our marriage would be better, at least in my eyes. I agreed with her on the whole academic thing, but said that I, personally, have equated sex with love, at least in the context of a committed relationship, and, while I thought we had a great relationship, I would, personally, feel much closer to her if we could get to the point where we felt comfortable with each other’s naked body, and with sex, again. She said she wanted me to get to the point where I didn’t “need” sex anymore. I told her to stop worrying about what I needed or didn’t need. I also said, “I only ‘need’ sex to the extent that you are willing to have it with me.” She said, “Well, that not really ‘need.’” And I said, “I know.”
Time was getting late, so I tried to wind it up, saying, “we’re doing better than we were 20 minutes, ago, right?” She agreed, albeit somewhat reluctantly, so I said good bye. For good measure, as I stood up I said, “could you give me a kiss?” (I know, I’m supposed to just do it, but her face was turned, and I wanted some lips). She said, “no.” I cheerfully responded, “Okay. Have a great day!” and told myself, “Her loss. See, I’m okay with her saying ‘no,’” I know that it’s about her, not about me.
Hairdog, I really think it's about time you turned the tables on her, and let her know exactly what YOU need, and what YOU will or won't put up with. So far SHE has all the power, and she is not doing good things with it. You need to set your OWN boundaries, and let her know that you expect them to be observed, and that YOU will be making choices based on the choices you see HER making. You will not progress with her until you do this. So far all you have is a power struggle, with HER on the "winning" side (which I put in quotes, since you BOTH lose with this arrangement).
I believe some people make up their minds what they will or will not do and stick to that regardless of what else is going on in their lives, and also refuse to look at things objectively or look at their own demons. Its real hard to look at yourself and face it, especially if its not all good. On that same note I know some people that will read everything they can get their hands on and be very knowledgeable in a subject, figure out whats wrong but have no idea how to go about changing it, nor do they want to change it.
I tend to agree with Tim, you have been doing this for 2-3 ish months and it doesn't seem to have changed anything in the R. It seems to me that the more you sit back the more she builds her wall that everything you are doing is wrong.
Why does it have to be a struggle that if you get what you want she loses something. Because that is the way that it sounds from what you have written. Seems to me that it is a marriage not a war.
Sorry to hear your story, but I think this (the "I feel PRESSURE!") is a consistency theme among LDs. My wife always complains about "everyone relying on her," and "feeling everyone wanting things from me," and "everyone is 'at' me," etc. When I went to my no-pressure/"he-who-cares-the-least" thing a few years ago, and just backed off, I would point out to her "I hope you don't feel that from ME? When have I pressured you?"
Her response?
"Even when you DON'T pressure me, you are pressuring me. Just knowing you like I do, and knowing that you really want it, pressures me and reminds me of what a bad wife I am."
I'm paraphrasing, but not by much. Pretty amazing stuff, how if you pressure an LD, it is pressure, and if you DON'T pressure them, it is STILL pressure, because they know you really want it anyway.
Just goes to show, they pressure themselves. You cannot remove that pressure, they will keep doing it to themselves. The only way to move the situation forward is to hold onto yourself, set a clear boundary, and create a two-choice dilemma they cannot bypass except by making a choice...
Quote: Even when you DON'T pressure me, you are pressuring me. Just knowing you like I do, and knowing that you really want it, pressures me and reminds me of what a bad wife I am."
This is almost verbatim what my W tells me. She says that she knows what is going on in my head, and that my behavior, in not touching her, does not reflect my true feelings. WTF? When I told her to stop worrying about what I was feeling or thinking and to worry about herself, she kind of dismissed it, but I sure hope I at least planted a seed.
I think, all in all, I handled the situation okay. I wish my mom hadn't said what she did, but bygones.... Given her statement, and my W's reaction, I did what I thought was best: I waited until I thought she had cooled down; I tried to clue her in on the whole story; I considered her views, but ultimately dismissed them and I stuck to my viewpoint of things.
As for breaking down the wall, I don't think it's going to happen as the result of an argument. I think it will just have to crumble on its own. It will, as she realizes what a great guy I am, and how I'm not being unreasonable.
Hairdog - whose brain and mind and thoughts are his own.
Even when you DON'T pressure me, you are pressuring me. Just knowing you like I do, and knowing that you really want it, pressures me and reminds me of what a bad wife I am."
This is almost verbatim what my W tells me. She says that she knows what is going on in my head, and that my behavior, in not touching her, does not reflect my true feelings. WTF? ------------------------------------------------ What movie is that line from, where the guy says "You want to know the mind of a woman? Just take the mind of a man, and remove all traces of logic!"
I haven't really been following your situation for long, but from what you say, a lot HAS changed in the past 2-3 months. What is different is you. I don't think she's gaining "power." It sounds like she's frustrated about her own lack of power, that she doesn't have a sex drive and it bothers her. She also can't help but see that you've made real changes. She just can't admit it. She's trapped and doesn't know what to do.
You, Dog, are getting stronger. This is REAL good! But, I'm sure you would use that strength to reach down to her and raise her up if you could. It sounds like she can't accept that yet so you just need to get stronger and better inside your own skin. This is one journey she needs to take by herself for a while. It sounds lonely for both of you. While she's doing that, you're using your time wisely. I think you're on the right track.
Thanks, Tom. I definitely feel like I'm a better person. Part of it is the PM reading and discussion. Part of it is reading the Buddhist literature, and some of the other literature; attitude adjustments I've made; this Executive Leadership Seminar I took; realizing I love her so very much and do not want to have an affair. The self-soothing of saying things to myself like, "your loss" and "what's she going to do, cut me off?"
I'm ready for a physical/emotional relationship. She'll figure it out, and I'll help her to the extent I can.
