My Story P2...Acceptance of the MLC Madness

[DnJ]

Hello Elbereth (and Eagle)

I was running behind this morning while reading, typing, and eating my toast. Perhaps, I wasn’t as eloquent as I was shooting for.

The choice for Eagle, or anyone, to engage in sex, or not, is up to them. Always.

Yes, H could just lie, and probably would. The word of a person in crisis is pretty unreliable. H has been hiding his OW2 for quite some time and it is only really coming to light as their relationship is disintegrating.

My advice does presumes Eagle’s desire for sexual interaction. As stated she’s been involved, unwittingly albeit, during H’s latest affair. I may be wrong, however I believe Eagle was ok and enjoyed the time with H. If he had continued to show improvement I’d suspect things would have progress in this area as well.

My less generic version is purposefully pointed to illicit a response from H. I will not have sex with you since you did this. That’s a big 180 and H will probably not be expecting that. I’d be very surprised if a guy so down and depressed, who is remaining in bed during his trip with his kids, could think fast enough to and lie and cover up very well.

“I am not feeling comfortable with intimacy right now with the current way our relationship is going” does not get to the fact of what the boundary is for. It’s not about being uncomfortable with intimacy, although that is true. It is about being disrespected! That’s at the root of things.

H’s behaviour is disrespectful. He controls that. E tells him she doesn’t appreciate his disrespect. When H does things like that, she enforces her boundary which she can control. That’s the general blueprint for a boundary.

My favourite line. Which I may someday even get to use. Lol.

J, if you’re with OM, you’re not with me.

Eagle, maybe you want to use that. H, if you’re with OW2, you’re are not with me.

Feel free to try it on for size. Take it for a test drive in your mind. See if it resonates with you.

It’s pretty short and simple so the Swiss cheese minded MLCer can absorb it. Lol. And it provides very little room for one to try to manipulate things.

D

[kml]

And if he says it’s over with OW2, he can prove his good intentions by going to the doctor, getting tested for stds, and bringing you the results.

[Eagle3]

Thank you, DnJ, El and kml for your advice.

Had some food for thought again.

I know you’re feeling rather low. (((Hugs))) D

Actually, I don't feel low or bad at all. Yes, the only thing I could say is that I believe too much in the good of people but really this is just who I am and I don't want to change that.
Yes, I was under the impression that no one can lie so badly, lie so that they believe it themselves.
How will this hurt if he ever comes to realize what he has done, and if he never comes to realize, well, the future will tell.
I simply did it out of love, I can't blame myself on that level.

As for my behavior towards H in the next week he will be home. At first I will keep in mind the party of S17. this has to be the first priority. I want everything to go well for him.
Do I have such an urge to make things clear to him? I don't even have that anymore.

Butterfly worded it perfectly on DnJ's thread, I can completely separate H from MLC H.
These are 2 different people, I can base my actions upon that now, but taking into account that we can't argue with someone in MLC.

Furthermore, I will also base my actions depending on how H behaves.

If it really is the case that his relationship with OW2 is coming to an end or has effectively ended, he will already show overtly depressive behavior again and he will not make any attempt to be intimate.
If he does try, I will indeed respond in a straithforward way.

I thought I made it clear that I had two specific boundaries:
1st of all, if you are with OW, you’re not with me, so this means no intimacy between us. This is very disrespectful towards the both of us. (should I mention her name or should I simply use the term another women?)
And 2nd I’ve always said you are welcome in our home if there was no OW. Therefore, I prefer you to find another place to sleep at, next time when you are coming over.

DnJ, or too long again, since the Swiss cheese minded MLCer will not be able to absorb it anymore?

And if he says he broke up with her I don’t know yet what I will say because it can be a lie again…

[bttrfly]

keep it simple.
1. not while you're boffing others
2. not while you're boffing others

less words are better. xoxo

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

I’d use her name.

In my thought experiment speech it goes something like (name changed to protect the guilty. Lol):

J, if you are with Fred, then you aren’t with me. In fact, if you are with anyone, you are not with me.

I like the idea of identifying OM. Making it real and leading. And also addressing and heading off any future vagueness. “But DnJ, you only said if I wasn’t with Fred. You never mentioned Sam, of Bob, or Dave, or…”

Less words are better. It is because more usually overly complicates the underlying message for such an addled mind. In your case, what you’ve proposed is good. Yes, it is of length, yet is needs to be. It fully gets the message out there in as clear and straightforward as possible.

If H rebuttals and refutes, keep your follow up very short. Like bttrfly’s example. Not while you’re boffing others. And then end that conversation. Boundaries need to be rock solid.

And if he says it’s over between him and OW. Ok. That doesn’t mean you will just fall into bed with him. Follow kml’ s wise advice and push him to demonstrate his good intentions and his changed ways by going for STD testing. Any baulking at such an idea illustrates something else. Someone who is willing to repent and change and reform, will show much remorse and be willing to do whatever it takes to make amends. Of course, that process takes time so he cannot display such right away. Still, he should be moving in that direction.

No matter what is currently his real situation. I think he is sleeping alone during this upcoming week. Or should be. If you cannot believe him, have an instinct that he is lying, you don’t sleep with him.

D

[Rita]

How about --

Eaglette: "It's time to set up another place to stay when you are in town. You can't stay here anymore, sorry."

H: WHAT?! BLAH BLAH BLAH YOUR FAULT BLAH YOU ARE TERRIBLE BLAH THIS IS WHY I NEVER BLAH BLAH

Adorable Yet Powerful Eagle: "Sorry you feel that way. I'm no longer comfortable with this arrangement, and it is not good for the kids to have this limbo. They can visit with you all day and sleep here if you can't work out a big enough place for them to stay over."

H: BUT BLAH AND BLAH AND MY LIFE IS BLAH BLAH BLAH I NEVER GET BLAH BLAH WHAT ABOUT BLAH BLAH BLAH I PROVIDE AND NO ONE BLAH BLAH

Soaring Eagle of the Mountains and Sunlit Lands Beyond: "I can't offer you a place to stay. It's time for you to get a place of your own."

H: SPUTTER BLAH BLAH RAGE BLAH BLAH LOVED ONCE BLAH NO OW BLAH YES OW BLAH

Elegant Spectacular Talented Kind Nurturing Strong Eagle: "I have to get to work. Bye."

It's all blah blah, Eagle. It doesn't matter what blah blah blah comes out of his mouth until he is himself again.

It's not complicated. Don't get sucked into thinking it's complicated.

You don't want to do this anymore and that's it.

He knows there is an OW and he knows he isn't willing to be in the family in a real way. You don't have to explain anything to him.

And even if there isn't an OW, trust me, these arrangements do not bring them back. I know you have read my story. I had an arrangement like that for six years. Except he never tried to be with me in any way. That I think makes it even more painful and confusing.

Oh and don't worry about the outcome -- e.g., if he refuses and shows up anyway. Have a plan -- I see you were not able to respect my wishes for this visit. I will stay with (friend, roman, countryman, sister) for a few days. Next time I will not be able to do that, so please make arrangements.

You can't control what he does but you can keep trying to stand up for your boundaries and your dignity as a human being who is worthy worthy worthy.

P.S. I know it hurts like a mo. ((((Eagle))))) You are worthy worthy worthy and beautiful.

[Eagle3]

I’d use her name. D

Thx. Had exactly the same opinion.

If H rebuttals and refutes, keep your follow up very short. Like bttrfly’s example. Not while you’re boffing others. And then end that conversation. Boundaries need to be rock solid. D

Right on again. I’ll use that and walk away.

No matter what is currently his real situation. I think he is sleeping alone during this upcoming week. Or should be. If you cannot believe him, have an instinct that he is lying, you don’t sleep with him.D

I couldn’t help laughing whilst reading this part.
Yesterday I was comfortably sitting on my terras enjoying my last evening all by myself with a gin & tonic, some appetizers and a good book. I decided to check DB and read your feedback.
Man, did I laugh so much with it. You are correct. He will be sleeping alone for sure this week.

And sweet sweet Gerda,
Your words are so kind and out of the words you wrote I can see your pain coming back of what you have been through. But I’m way beyond that. He can’t hurt me anymore. The only thing that still happens is the time he still consumes in my mind, maybe a little too much than I would like to but my wall has been built so high that he can’t cross it anymore.
He knows this as well.

I guess my story is different then yours because he doesn’t want to loose me and he wants to keep me in a manipulative MLC-minded way when he start losing his grip on me. Is this confusing, no, not anymore because I fully understand the MLC mind now.

Your H does everything in his power to destroy you, in a way I have never seen before, this is much more painful I believe because this is the man you loved for such a long time. And you are afraid that others here on the site will go through the same you had to go through. (and still not finished)

But believe me, the day he puts even one thing in my way or starts to give me a hard time, the divorce will be pushed through, and that's something he knows too. As said before, I live in a country where everything is not made too difficult in that area.

In my whole live I always had the feeling of being worthy, he can never take that away from me.

In know I’m fine, and will be fine in the future as well. Regardless of what happens in the future.
I simply show him all the time how to love, have compassion, be forgiving. Will he learn from it, no one knows, but I have chosen this path and will continue to follow it, because it works for me.

So thank you Gerda, thank you for having such a big heart.

Have a wonderful weekend everyone!

[Eagle3]

I just want to tell quickly what happened yesterday.
It just needs to get out of the way with people who understand me.

Yesterday H arrived with the kids. I went to pick them up at the airport.
Again noticing different behavior than the last time.
More distant, little emotion.

However, last night, after the children were in bed, we had a long talk. Also started talking about our relationship, this for the first time in 2.5 years.

In the beginning this was quite difficult. He told me that he planned to return closer to home, not yet with certainty as employer has not yet given a definitive go, but that this would the intention because he would like to spend more time with his children, that he has come to realize that he only has 4 more years with the kids until they go to college.

He then asked if he there was a possibility to switch to week-week custody and he asked me if I thought if he was ready for that. I answered honestly that I think this is something that he should first discuss with the children if they are open to it, but he really wanted an answer from me. I then said that I suspect that this would still be difficult, as he has not yet reached the point where he can be his true self again and that this is still clearly noticeable. He told me he thinks this will help him to reach this point.

One thing led to another and I asked him (by name and surname) if he has a relationship with this woman. He wasn't expecting this. He replied that there is something between them, but that it is very difficult because he no longer has faith in anything or anyone, that is why he continuously pushes away the people he likes, that this started during his relationship with OW1. He never had this during our relationship, he says. He just said we lost each other. Or he me.

He doesn't know if he wants to be with OW2. (didn't tell me anything about the fact they defriended each other on social media last week.)
I didn't tell him I knew either.

He knows that he gets very angry when he experiences stress or when he feels pushed into a corner, and that he does this because he is actually angry at himself but then projects it onto people.

He says that he has started to read a lot about this, is drinking less now and that he is doing better and better as a result. He did say, however, that he has held a rope in his hands twice in the last year to put an end to it.

He also said that things can't get better between us, that way too much has happened the past years. Yes, he loves me and I will probably always be the woman of his life, but the wounds are too deep for him to heal. He also does not think, after 2 years, that his feeling how he used to love me can return.

I did answer him that he never took the opportunity to work on our relationship. That he pushed me away without even giving us a chance. He said I was right about this.

I also asked why he was intimitate with me the last time and why he told me i will always be the one for him. He said plain and simple "I was drunk" (which wasn't the case)

I honestly told him that I am not giving up on our marriage yet, that it has been too beautiful for that and that you have to work hard on a relationship. He said he was under the impression that I had given up on him since I told him last time not to sell the house because then he would still have a chance to buy it.

I have finished repeating this again. That I'm not giving up yet, and that I don't want a response to that for the time being.

I have the feeling that he means it, that he no longer believes in us.

Or are these more lies? I can't see through this, really, I can't. it's like he means all what he says and also tells the truth.

[Rita]

Hi, Eagle -- Just reading over what you wrote back to me and this new update.

This may all sound better to you because it seems to be "real," but it's not.

Nothing is real until it lasts.

It's great that he is starting to be aware of his own anger and other issues.

You'll be the last thing he can open up to.

He may never open back up to anyone and keep running. But if he stops running, he will open back up to you when he decides, and from what I have read, you'll be the last one he returns to. It's out of your control. I think it's fine to say once that the door is always open if he wants to return, that you believe in your family and the love you shared before, but I would not plead the case for your marriage. If you have to convince him of that, he is not done running. When he is done running, he will want to convince YOU to come back to him. Your only job is to periodically indicate that the door is open.

But boundaries are part of keeping the door open -- they are the door frame.

I would keep using the phrase, "That sounds difficult/interesting/good start/hopeful/big news -- let's see how it goes." That's for custody and everything else. Just an adjective that describes what he is saying without providing an action for either of you to take.

And about what you said -- I am not hurt anymore, Eagle, and I don't see him as a man or even a person anymore -- I just want to be free -- but you are right that I want to protect you and everyone else here because I can see some of the ways you twist your thoughts to suit his complicated world view. We all have more perspective on each other's posts than each of us have on our own posts. If you had a daughter, would you tell her it's okay to sleep with a man who treats her the way your H is treating you? Rejoice has a whole thing on sleeping with the prodigal, and I don't totally disagree with it, it is maybe nonsensical to say, "I am still your wife" and then refuse intimacy. But you don't seem to have a clear vision about intimacy -- you were even thinking of dating someone else a short time ago. You aren't a horse in a field, either. You are a sacred being with a soul. Sex can be only physical, as it is (I assume!) for animals, but I don't think that's its highest use. So I think it's important to ask yourself if you are offering that because you want it to be clear you are still his wife or because you are being driven by physical urges or because you want to be close to him. The latter two I do not think are good reasons to surrender your boundary or your protection of yourself -- physical urges are never a good reason to sleep with someone and being close to him is impossible right now and will only hurt you when he re-drifts. That's all I meant by that. I think you can do it but I don't think you are clear on why you are doing it, and if the reason is "complicated," I would not do it.

The main thing is to take a lot of deep breaths and keep reminding yourself that words without actions don't mean anything. It's hard to do in the moment, esp when they are finally speaking their feelings, but it will take a couple of years for him to return, if he really is going to do that, if this conversation is indicating the beginning of that journey, but it might be a false start, you have no way of knowing, so there is no point in giving too much weight to any single conversation and pleading your case is most definitely not going to be effective for your mission as lighthouse. The Lighthouse doesn't plead or go to the ships, it just keeps patiently spinning that light into the darkness, and the ships come near the lighthouse or crash or drift into oblivion even as the lighthouse keeps beaming those rays.

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

Yesterday H arrived with the kids. I went to pick them up at the airport.
Again noticing different behavior than the last time.
More distant, little emotion.

Good you noticed he is behaving differently. More distant. Less emotion. Lets keep that in mind while we discuss.

He then asked if he there was a possibility to switch to week-week custody and he asked me if I thought if he was ready for that.

Do not switch! He is not ready.

He is more distant and displaying less emotions. No need to alter the current arrangements.

It is good that you brought up speaking with the kids about a possible change in living arrangement. However, H asked you, sees you as the official guardian, do not let go of that. You speak with the kids first. You have no idea what he will say to coerce them.

One thing led to another and I asked him (by name and surname) if he has a relationship with this woman. He wasn't expecting this.

I bet he was surprised.

H says there is still something between them. But still has emotional difficulty and pushes people away. (Note: Your kids do not need more of that from him. Especially every second week.) And in no big surprise he didn’t come clean about him and OW2’s relationship - the possible breakup.

He also said that things can't get better between us, that way too much has happened the past years. Yes, he loves me and I will probably always be the woman of his life, but the wounds are too deep for him to heal. He also does not think, after 2 years, that his feeling how he used to love me can return.

Yep, pretty standard stuff. Folks in emotional turmoil see most things as negative, and absolutes. As in my bad feelings will never change.

I honestly told him that I am not giving up on our marriage yet, that it has been too beautiful for that and that you have to work hard on a relationship.

Alert. Alert. Too much pressure.

Give time and space. Any pressure, relationship talks, even those that he starts, and he will bolt.

He is not in a place where he see your marriage as beautiful. Sorry, he just ain’t.

And he does not want to hear about your feelings. Not one bit. Again, sorry to be so blunt.

People in crisis are focused on their feelings. They are driven by them. Their emotions are cranked to eleven. They cannot handle their own feelings never mind anyone else’s.

And the last thing he is looking for is hard work. Especially on a relationship he feels he cannot ever feel for again.

He said he was under the impression that I had given up on him since I told him last time not to sell the house because then he would still have a chance to buy it.

I have finished repeating this again. That I'm not giving up yet, and that I don't want a response to that for the time being.

Nicely done.

Yes, you have not given up in him. Keep things about him. Not the marriage. It is good to show a bit of support to him the person. Not so much that it looks like supporting OW2 and such. More supporting his personal growth rather than his lifestyle.

I have the feeling that he means it, that he no longer believes in us.

I would say that is accurate. Yes he no longer believes in you two. Which is most likely him not believing in himself. Remember this never had that much to do with you; his path was about him.

Now, beliefs are slow to change. It takes time to alter a belief, even when they do not serve or are incorrect. Only he can alter his view. He controls himself. You can influence. You can shine, and give time and space.

Or are these more lies? I can't see through this, really, I can't. it's like he means all what he says and also tells the truth.

H is driven by his feelings. And feelings change all the time.

H means things he says. As he says it. And sometimes he outright lies.

His confusion is evident. Within the same conversation he states different points of view regarding his feelings. And all of them are valid.

Validate. Don’t argue. Give no pressure.

I would place H at a few possible junctures. One of them, the troublesome one, the one you need to consider and therefore be more prepared for is:

H is planning a move towards a divorce. His asking for half and half custody is not from some parental concern, it is from a financial manipulative move. He has stated he has given up on the marriage. He is looking for a way out.

At the same time he is making progress as well. So, of course he is confused and feeling very weird about his life. He is much still on the verge of some serious running; no need to give him a push.

You do not need to see through all his words. Do not believe any of what they say, and only half of what they do.

If H is serious about wanting the kids half time, he will step up and display it.

If H is serious about not believing in you and him, and I mean really serious, he will take action. His half hearted attempt is to get you to give up and do the dirty work. It’s to get you to do heavy lifting. He doesn’t want to look or feel like the bad guy.

H is getting to the place where he sees that you are not the source of his bad feelings. To the place he realizes that he might be the source. Sees that he needs to look inward.

He also said that things can't get better between us, that way too much has happened the past years. Yes, he loves me and I will probably always be the woman of his life, but the wounds are too deep for him to heal. He also does not think, after 2 years, that his feeling how he used to love me can return.

You know his feelings can change. You know he is battling something within.

Give him the time and space to be wrong. To prove himself wrong.

How?

“H, I’m sorry you feel that way.” And then leave it alone. Let him consider that.


My dear Eagle, some hard to hear advice. You need to let your beautiful marriage go. The memories are true and alive. The marriage is dead. This doesn’t mean you need a divorce. A divorce is just a piece of paper. The relationship between you and H is not what it once was. Let it go. You, and H, both need that to move forward on your paths.

For H, he needs to feel the loss of you and his relationship. To feel the consequences of his actions and decisions. This doesn’t necessitate you actively pursuing any particular action. Rather, it’s more not reinforcing his safety net.

For you, let go. Realize that if you and H were to ever reconcile it would be a new relationship. The old one is gone, burnt to the ground. Once the ashes are swept clear, any new relationship will be built upon the foundation of your values. You cannot revive your old marriage, it must be new.

Stand for you. Not your marriage. Not for H. Stand for you.

From one lighthouse to another. You are doing fine. Let your light shine.

D