Fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity #2

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

That's why I'm disappointed in myself. I gave him more justification. But I also realize I don't know how to engage in a conversation that only involves business. I'm easily pulled in to trying to get him to see my true intentions...

Go easy on yourself. This is difficult and emotional stuff.

I don't understand how to negotiate, obviously, and I don't see how to move things forward if it's just me saying over and over I'm sorry you feel that way. If I asked, What do you propose? And he said I propose to give you everything but my pension and that's his only proposal, how do I respond?

To keep it business, stop trying to get him to see, or more accurately stop trying to force him to see your side. The more you push the more he will push back. Come at it sideways. You need to listen and see his side first. Negotiating doesn’t happen with neither side listening to the other. Someone has to hear first, and that will have to be you since H is all mixed up. Once he feels heard, you will know his side, you will also have (maybe) further insight into his reasons and fear for why he feels like he does. And that helps you negotiate, to find a reasonable resolution to the impasse.

I’ve had many discussions/negotiations with my team over my years. A few take always I’ll share with you are to be openminded and go in with a willingness to change. To be clear, this mindset is not negating your views, or policies, or rules, or application of law, or what you are entitled to or should get in a settlement - it is setting aside your ego so you can actively listen to the other side’s version and accept and validate it. Because it is valid! To him.

Oftentimes being heard and acknowledged is all it takes. People feel like they are getting ran over and no one cares or listens. Consider bomb drop and how you so wished H would just listen to your side as he ran off with the fairies and unicorns into his wonderful fantasy life.

It takes some control and being a bit nibble on your feet while conversing to keep the conversation from getting emotional and from getting pulled in. Keep it business and goal oriented. Clarify his position with follow up questions. Then offer your views, unless... you get a better offer.

Middle ground is a pretty awesome place. One can see all side. One is not firmly fixed on their view, and so far on their side that they cannot see the other side. It is the realm of possibilities and where hope lives. It is possible that H may offer something better than his pension amount. That may not make sense to you; it doesn’t have to, it just has to make sense to H.

If such a conversation can happen, take advantage of it. Listen. Keep mostly silent. People will talk to fill in the silence. And do not be afraid to state you need time to consider his words. He may propose something you have not even considered and you will need time to think about it.

In your present situation, it is about his pension. He has provided his paperwork or by the sounds of things you have a pretty reasonable handle of the amounts and value of the pension plan. Work out what an upfront lump sum would be needed to equal the value paid out later in life. That is only a reference point. Not what you are seeking, not what you willing to settle for, nothing of the sort - just a number. Just information. And information is power and allows one to make decisions based on something other than if it feels good or bad. On offer that is well above the calculated value has obvious merit. An offer below the calculated value can have merit as well. It is just a number. (And keep most of your side and information to yourself. Don’t go spilling the beans.)

Then, consider a few things, on both sides - lump sum or pension: You already have plenty of valid numbers and reasons to retain a pension payout, so I will address the other side. The often overlooked side.

A lump sum is available now. You will have that money in hand now and that can alleviate a lot of financial stress, having a nest egg for just in case expenses is a good thing. You can invest that money how you see fit.

A big one, you do not have to wait until H retires. I know of a few angry people who are stubbornly not retiring. They are working well passed retirement age; working until the day they die, so their ex spouse cannot start collecting pension. (Of course, there are plenty of ways to agree to spilt the pension. The angry spouse hid their nefarious loophole plan from their spouse. And once signed, well...they signed. Always have a lawyer look it over before signing.) A lump sum gets H off the books, now. His actions or inactions cannot affect money that is in your hands.

Alimony can also be consider. An upfront payout ensures a spouse who skips the country or some such as no affect on your financial security.

Consider that side. With those considerations, with the extra security, you can settle for less than the fully entitled amount as well. Or not. Or even more if H offered such a deal. It is possible, these irrational folks do strange things that defy logic and reason. My XW is living proof. And if I had argued and fought, I’d not be where I am now. As much as I hated how she was destroying me, the family, and herself; her own destructive force and speed turned on her own financial future and I just had to shut up and sign the paper. As good a deal as that was and is, it was so very hard to accept. There is a lot of letting go of certain hopeful, well actually expected, outcomes. And that is harder than negotiating with your spouse; it’s almost negotiating with yourself.

Me: I still feel strongly about X.

H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve X.

Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.

H: You don't deserve it because....

Me: [Trying in many ways to explain how I see it even as I acknowledge his perspective.] I'm sorry that's how you feel.

Yes it can get cyclic rather quickly. Especially when the other person is being manipulative and digging in their heals.

Listening is half the solution. The other half is asking them. (Takes some finesse, not just blurting out. Though at times that is exactly what is needed.)

He did lead me to the issue of the pension, after listing other things and saying he really didn't care about them. I think he wants me to accept short-term support in lieu of the retirement. He hinted that's what he would prefer. I hinted that I could entertain the opposite arrangement.

It’s right there. Follow up and listen. Hear his proposal.

How about something like:

Me: I still feel strongly about my share of your pension.

H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve my pension as I earned it.

Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.

<silence>

H: You don't deserve it because.... (lists “reasons”)

Me: Ok, let’s say I leave your pension alone. What do you propose?

H: You get the house, car, and the contents.

<small pause>

Me: Ok, I’m listening.

H: And of course alimony.

Me: Hmmm. That is an interesting idea. The house is paid for right? No debts for me?

H: Yes. Of course!

Me: That is certainly worthy of consideration.

Me: Hmmm. An upfront payment... What about the alimony being all upfront as well? Like a lump sum.

H: I would like that too. I never thought you go for something like that.


Ok. Creative liberties aside, you can see the idea. I don’t know what “not really cared about” things H is willing to give up, however they might be rather valuable. My XW gave up her kids for example. And the house. And car and... well she was rather rare. Still, it’s what H is willing to do that matters, and if that is something you can accept or not.

One last thing, the spread between his ideas and the legal default outcome may be a chasm you are not willing to accept. That’s ok. This is just a discussion. A business talk about a business arrangement gone bad (divorce). It is fine to state that his offer is just too far away from what you are willing to accept. And that you will proceed as per legal precedent.

In all, accepting or declining, ensure you are being business-like and not because of feelings. You can let your feelings out later. (And I empathize, I’ve been there too.)

D