I think working on your #2 goal-- empathy-- might really help you in a lot of ways, and I think stretching your empathy muscles will also have a positive impact on pretty much every other one of your 180s ... And I will freely share with you that I am among those offended by some of the things you've said.
OK, May, I'll take you up on your offer. Why don't you start, and tell me what you are offended by about me.
hi Tom,
Sure. Though I'm not doing this to get into a debate about whether or not it was truly offensive or I'm overreacting and screaming at you, or something along those lines. Also, I am not offended at YOU, I'm offended at some of the things you've said... there is a difference there. I hope you can just listen and understand that I was offended by your words. Here is one example, on 1hedlite's thread:
Originally Posted by tom_h
Without complaining or expecting to be acknowledged for it, change your appearance, behavior, and attitude. Start dressing really well around the house, better than just your normal baggies or sweats. Wear perfume, do your hair nicely. [Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.] Spend time making more elaborate meals. Pick up after him without complaining. Avoid the usual traps you have that lead to complaining and bickering. Stop talking about sex, and stop making overtures toward sex. Give him more of the sweet MTM kisses that you mentioned above (MTM = Mary Tyler Moore kisses, the kind of chaste sweet wifely kisses that you saw on the Dick Van Dyke Show). If you have daily or weekly routines, keep them up but maintain a positive attitude.
He will notice, of course. What you want him to finally do is, after a week or two, ask you "why are you so different?" Then you give him the truth. You love him and you didn't think you were honoring him, as a man, husband and father enough. So you decided to improve yourself a bit. And it's been fun, and I'm thrilled you noticed, you tell him.
I found this to be one of the most abhorrent and sexist things I've read on these boards (and I've read a lot). Stay at home moms tend to let things go? Honoring him as a man, husband and father enough? I had a visceral response to reading this.
Also, "let themselves go" in and of itself is offensive-- the idea that women need to live up to some standard, to be pretty and fit and dress nicely-- why? As long as they're healthy and happy, who cares? And while I don't know a ton of SAHMs, the ones I'm thinking of right now are far fitter than I am, and better dressers too.
Then, your response to Scout:
Originally Posted by tom_h
Scout, I touched a nerve and I didn't mean to set you off.
is dismissive and covertly sexist. It comes across as "whoa whoa whoa, don't get all emotional!" and plays into the idea that women are overly emotional, that she can't control herself. These kind of comments aren't far from the "it must be that time of the month" kind of comments. Maybe you didn't mean to come across that way. But you should know that comments like that make you sound sexist.
Also, the other two quotes LH called you out on as being sexist-- the "tasting of the wares" one, and the female sex drive being strongest when she wants a man or a child with a man-- are sexist and I was offended when I read both of them, though I chose not to comment. (It didn't seem worth it.) "Tasting of the wares" objectifies women, and the sex drive thing is ignorant and plays into the idea that women are out to entrap a H.
And, by the way... hearing these "quotes" from someone else does NOT absolve you of any responsibility when you repeat them yourself! That is a ridiculous excuse. It doesn't matter where you heard a sexist remark. You stated them yourself and you own them now. You can't pass off responsibility after the fact because you didn't think it up on your own. It is like repeating a sexist or a racist joke. Not okay.
So there are a few times when I felt offended by remarks you made. To me, they came across as sexist. Maybe you didn't mean them that way... okay, then great! An opportunity to improve your communication skills and edit sexist comments out of your repertoire so that folks no longer imagine you to be sexist.
Best, May
May, I just spent an hour browsing through your sich. Reading it, in light of your views above, has made me wonder.
My gut says that I should let sleeping dogs lie [whoops there I am again offending someone!], not reply to this, and just let you decide whether you want to engage anymore on my threads. However, upon reading your own threads (wow, there is a lot there and after figuring your husband out I just browsed fast to learn the milestones) I have a lot of respect for your situation and the trauma he's put you through. I also -- call me foolish -- want a chance to prove that I am not the b-stard you think I am. Why would I care? Mostly because I like people, all types of people, even the ones who disagree with me. I also enjoy a spirited discussion, although I'm not sure you necessarily do ...
Still, even if we did have this dialogue, I don't think it belongs here on DB. It would be a distraction.
