Sex Tips for HDWs with semi-willing LDHs

[Tim2point0]

I told my H the other night that he will no longer be able to rely on my anger as a guage of how well (or unwell, lol) he is doing as a lover.

Wow, HP, that's really fantastic! Brilliant!

[MJontheMend]

I think the with holding is a way of being in control of something

Yes,that is quite probably true, but if my H is withholding sex from me but still MBing with pornography, it seems to me the only thing he can possibly be trying to control is me. This is what I would find unacceptable.

Maybe you should just try getting him drunk a lot. .

My H gets crazy when he's drunk but it makes him want to dance or, if extremely wasted, "moon" people, it doesn't seem to increase his sex drive.

[honeypot]

Mojo,
Could he be trying to control his own sexuality, as opposed to trying to control you? Sortof a way of saying, This belongs to ME not you, Mo.

I don't think that my H would ever withhold sex as a way to act maliciously towards me, or even out of resentment--honestly he is just not that complex, he is much more simple than that. But I do think that he, like a lot of men, reacts VERY strongly to the thought of being controlled and will withhold from me what I want if he thinks that I am being manipulative in getting it. Which I have been guilty of, more times than I could count.

Hang in there today.
Honey

[grislen]

Maybe you will get lucky and he will moon you . I think that is what he can control so he does. I do believe that is a way of controlling you. Just as you have your ways of controlling him. The way I control my W or try to any way is through my anger. I can be very passive aggressive. I think I need to get by this and start being honest with my W. I think I do a lot of what all us HDers do. We say I need this and what you are doing is unacceptable. So they say we will try harder and then you wait to see if anything changes. After waiting for 3-4 weeks. You start getting frustrated and then you blow your top. It may not even be aboout sex at the moment but if you look deep down it very well could be. This is the most irraitating thing becuase you know that you need to be patient. I think that we all need to stick to our guns and set boundries. Anyway back to subject. If he is MBing and not having sex with you then I see a huge problem. Me being HD. I could MB in the morning and at lunch be ready to ML to my W.
I think the LD is very different than this. They want time to recopirate<sp>. My W says a lot the same as the others. That it is great. But she doesn't want to do it again the next day. That I don't get in anyway shape or form. Anyway I think im just rambleing now. so I will stop.

Lee

[MJontheMend]

Could he be trying to control his own sexuality, as opposed to trying to control you? Sortof a way of saying, This belongs to ME not you, Mo

That doesn't seem quite right. I'm really not that aggressive. My style in the past has generally been to try to initiate maybe once every two weeks and then cry by myself if I'm rejected. I've only directly confronted him about it a few times a year. I don't think that line of thought would have occurred to him except maybe recently when I confronted him about the porn.

like a lot of men, reacts VERY strongly to the thought of being controlled and will withhold from me what I want if he thinks that I am being manipulative in getting it

Yes, my husband is very "oppositional"in that way too, but I think it's ridiculous if just knowing that I want more sex is causing him to almost never want to give it to me. I shouldn't have to use reverse psychology on him like a three year old.

I like your method of letting your H know that you are going to be unhappy if you don't get sex whether or not you act mad, but it still comes down to the same old thing we keep hitting our heads against on this board- What is the consequence of such behaviour?

[grislen]

Well what can the consquence be for your LDH or my LDW not ML to us. There is only one that I can think of that may or may not work. The problem is getting th guts to go through with the consequence.

I don't know what is worse though. Being alone and lonely or being married an lonely?

Lee

[eyesopened]

To be truthful, you really upset me with your initial Mrs. Roper comment. On at least one occasion in the past, I've actually said to my H " This situation is driving me crazy, you are making me feel sexually repulsive like Mrs. Roper".

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that YOU were like Mrs. Roper. BTW, I never considered Mrs. Roper to be "sexually repulsive". She was a character with a very selfish husband who leered at the young women in the building while making his own wife feel very undesirable. And, if I'd been her friend, I'd have tried to get her out of the house and away from the constant presence of her husband to develop other interests and relationships with other people who wouldn't treat her disrespectfully like her husband did. If nothing else, he wouldn't be able to avoid sex any longer by claiming that she was "nagging" him all the time.

Again, I'm sorry for offending you. It's often difficult on boards such as this to get points across accurately. In actual conversations, it's much easier to make adjustments to other people's perceptions and reactions. For example, as the LD partner in my marriage, it can be very frustrating and even insulting for me to read comments on this board that imply that ALL LD spouses, especially wives, are somehow "broken", have "issues" or "demons", hate sex, are not desirable, etc. Sometimes it sounds as though this is very black and white with HDs being good and LDs being bad. Michele and Schnarch both point out that there's some disparity in sexual desire in every marriage. Even in PM, Audrey, the woman who at first appeared to hate sex, actually loved sex but didn't respect her husband and didn't like the way her husband had sex with her.

I am comfortable and confident sexually, I enjoy sex with my husband, and I'm willing to try most things at least once as long as it isn't unhealthy, unsafe, and doesn't feel degrading, I'm the one who found and bought Lou Paget's books and suggested that we try them out, I'm the one who bought the Liberator wedges and has a nightstand drawer filled with Astroglide, silk scarves, finger cots, etc.; but I simply don't desire sex as much or as often as my husband does. If my husband became disabled, I wouldn't be climbing the walls with sexual frustration. Using Willard Harley's scale of emotional needs in His Needs, Her Needs, sex is my husband's number 1 emotional need whereas it's number 6 or 7 on my list. My sexual desire is driven more by my love for my husband and my desire to satisfy him and to meet his needs. My arousal is generally triggered by his arousal and desire for me UNLESS we're emotionally distanced. In that case, I have to either work harder to psyche myself up to "just do it" or reestablish the emotional closeness first.

I don't believe that a woman has to pretend to be LD or to become "bitchy" (in fact, the book, Why Men Love Bitches, encourages women to be strong and kind, not abrasive, and to stand on their own two feet, and to not chase men).

Again, the only advice I can offer is based on my own experience and as I wrote before, I've never been involved with a guy who was LD in the relationship. I found the book, Why Men Love Bitches, to be interesting because it explained something I'd observed in the past and that my husband once tried to explain to me. After college, I worked in a career field where my peers were mostly men who would be considered "good catches" (excellent physical condition, college educated, etc.), and they were accustomed to being pursued by women. What was surprising to me was that I was upfront at the beginning of my relationships with guys from this group (including my husband) that I didn't want to marry (no gameplaying, I truly didn't want to get married because I'd seen so many miserable marriages and I loved my independence). So what happened? The guy would propose within 3 to 6 months usually (except my husband who was as adamant as I was about not wanting to get married, it took him 1 year). I didn't really understand it because I was attractive with a good body, but not a centerfold beauty, I wasn't at all domestic and never cooked for them (except my husband), I never pursued them in any way except to subtly let them know that I was interested, and I didn't make my life revolve around them or even want to spend all my free time with them. But, looking back, what I did have was financial and emotional independence, confidence, and a "no third chances" attitude for bad behavior (I figured that most people make mistakes and that one, but only one, second chance was fair. The only person I've broken this rule for is my husband under certain circumstances, but that's because I take my wedding vows very seriously and we have children).

Again, I am sorry for writing something that upset you. My honest opinion is that somebody, male or female, who deliberately and regularly withholds sex from a spouse where she or he knows the other spouse feels hurt or rejected, and the withholding spouse offers no good reason for doing so and doesn't try to fix the situation, is behaving immaturely, selfishly, and unlovingly.

Schnarch may be a favorite on this board, but since marrying and having kids, I prefer Harry Stack Sullivan (one of America's most famous and influential non-Freudian psychiatrist) and his definition of love, which I have given to my kids to help them distinguish among love, lust, and infatuation whether they're on the "giving" or "receiving" end:

"When the satisfaction or security of another person becomes as significant to one as is one's own satisfaction or security, then the state of love exists. So far as I know, under no other circumstances is a state of love present, regardless of the popular usage of the word."
Conceptions of Psychiatry

BTW, when I realized that sex was more than scratching an itch for my husband and that one of us had to take the first step to increase emotional and physical intimacy, I specifically told my husband that I was willing to initiate and to "put myself out there", but I didn't ever want to feel like Mrs. Roper, that if I did, it would be a long, long time before I made myself vulnerable like that again. I've mentioned that my husband loves foot rubs and that I've been much more physically affectionate with him, including ML several times a week with me initiating some of the time, which he really likes. A week ago, we got into an argument about remodeling our house and how long it was taking (we're having an addition built and he's remodeling the kitchen and installing hardwood floors, and this was all supposed to be completed a year ago). In the heat of the argument, when he was getting very defensive, he zinged me with a comment about how he'd have accomplished more if I hadn't DEMANDED that he sit down with me after dinner and LET me rub his feet. BIG MISTAKE.

I'd actually prefer that he work on the house after dinner if he's not tired (actually, I'd really prefer that he hire a contractor but he's a perfectionist who often rips out the contractor's work and rebuilds it himself), and he's the one who comes into the family room and sits down on the sofa next to me instead of the second sofa where he usually sits and waits for me to offer to rub his feet while we watch TV (actually I'm more likely to watch TV while he takes a nap). I think he knew he'd crossed a boundary line because he left the room quickly. Later, after I'd thought about what happened, I wrote him a short note saying that I wasn't willing to take the initiative to satisfy physical needs and desires of his as long as he interprets my open-ended offers as demands, and that I would happily rub his feet and make love with him whenever he wants, BUT that he would have to ASK from now on. The way I see it he has 3 choices--he can simply go without, he can apologize and never make that mistake again (one second chance) and I'll go back to initiating as before, or he has to ASK for foot rubs and sex from now on.

He went on an out of town trip the day I gave him the note, and I haven't heard a peep out of him since then, and he usually calls me every night when he's gone. He's due back this weekend, and I'm not angry or upset, and I'm not going to let this one issue spill over into other areas in our marriage. I would prefer that he apologize and never do something like that again but I can live with the other options.

Anyway, the point was to show that I do understand about the Mrs. Roper thing, and I am sorry if it sounded as though I was making a negative or hurtful comment. I think that her requests and needs, even though she's a fictional character, were reasonable and legitimate, and that her husband's behavior was a good example of marital sadism; but people sometimes perceive even the most reasonable requests and offers as nagging and even demands (like my husband did), especially if they're feeling defensive, angry, pressured, mean, etc., even if they, to use a cliche, cut off their nose to spite their face (which your husband is doing by choosing 2-dimensional strangers and his hand over a warm, sexy, adventurous wife). This goes back again to Michele's advice to stop going down cheeseless tunnels (no matter how reasonable you're being and how unreasonable your husband is being). As she says in her KLA tapes, if at first you don't succeed, then try something different (which might even entail something other than coming up with new and novel positions that he feels free to critique and reject without trying or explaining why) rather than doing the same things over and over, which we all tend to do.

[Tim2point0]

Eyesopened, that is one of the most awesome posts I've read here! You are possibly one of the most "together" people here. That applause you hear is mine!

[MJontheMend]

Wow! Thanks for some great advice.

I didn't mean to imply that you offended me with the Mrs. Roper comment. I was just explaining that the Mrs. Roper thing sort of stikes a raw nerve with me and that's why I might have been unwarrantedly curt in my previous reply.

But, looking back, what I did have was financial and emotional independence, confidence, and a "no third chances" attitude for bad behavior

I think I really understand your take on things now. You sound like someone who is very smart and very "differentiated" also. You are just encouraging me to become more "differentiated" myself, not advising that I play the role of manipulative bitch to get my way. In fact, being a nice person has little to do with being a "push-over".

if at first you don't succeed, then try something different (which might even entail something other than coming up with new and novel positions that he feels free to critique and reject without trying or explaining why)

Right again. If I really prefer that he do the initiating I should make that clear and only be "over-the top" seductive if I'm in the mood to respect his preference in that regard. Besides, I know that my bedroom technique isn't really the problem. It's just easier to concentrate on that then what might really be going on.

Sometimes it sounds as though this is very black and white with HDs being good and LDs being bad.

I don't feel that way at all if I'm being rational about the matter. It's just that sometimes I let myself get spitting mad at my H about this problem and others who are unfortunately labeled LD may think this reflects on them. I always try to work with the hypothesis that LD women are basically the same as HD women when I offer advice to the HD men. I try to think of situations in which I might feel LD and what a guy could do to rectify the situation.

Really, I sincerely thank you for your input. Sometimes it's a bit like the blind leading the blind on this board and what you had to say was very relevant.

MegaMojo (soon to be JustJenny a nice woman but not a push-over, usually found wearing t-shirts and overalls with a pencil stuck in her hair, who likes books, gardening, old house renovation and swimming and really, really likes being f**ked on a Saturday night to the extent that she happily dresses up in high heels and a biker bra if that's what it takes .)

[eyesopened]

You are possibly one of the most "together" people here.

Tim, I wish. I'm still taking baby steps, and as the LD spouse my goals and baby steps are different and, in many ways, easier than MegaMojo's and yours regarding sex in our marriages. Michele's KLA (keeping love alive) tapes are very helpful for setting goals and looking for solutions (Like MM, I'm a bookworm and love reading, so I didn't expect to get much out of the tapes since I have most of Michele's books; but listening to the tapes repeatedly seems to work better for me in reinforcing changes). I've been listening to them repeatedly for several weeks now, and I've discovered that many of her ideas are finally staying "up front" in my head so that I don't simply react with the same old ineffective patterns of behavior as before.

I wish I'd been "together" enough to have realized that my allusion to Mrs. Roper in and of itself could have provoked negative emotions in MM and other wives with LD husbands (even with a HD husband, I had already told my husband that I would stop initiating if he ever did something that made me feel like TV's Mrs. Roper).

Anyway, I'm going to start my own thread so that MM's won't be hijacked.

BTW, my husband returned last night from his trip after not talking with me since leaving and didn't say anything to me until this morning. We ML this morning, but he did have to ask. It took several tries where he first kept asking if I wanted to, if I felt like it, or if it would make me feel good before he finally sighed and said "Can I f--k you?" Later, I explained that he doesn't literally have to ASK every time; he can say what HE wants, he can initiate since I respond easily and I've already promised that I won't turn him down, or he can ask. But, at this point, I won't let him put me in a position where he can later claim that I was DEMANDING since I don't trust him about that right now unless he apologizes and promises not to accuse me of making DEMANDS when I make open-ended offers to him of nonsexual and sexual physical touch.