I don't want a divorce II NEW THREAD Pt 21

[SteveLW]

EDIT: I also think this is why you cannot bring yourself to type the words: he is a lying cheater. I think you believe deep down, that it is fixable....... If you can put all the blame on yourself (*I drove him into the OW's arms!") then it is something that can be fixed ("I have reversed the behaviors that drove him to this!"). But to admit that he is a lying cheater is to admit that he is fundamentally flawed and therefore the hope for reconciliation is almost NIL due to that.

Peace.

I thought I referred to him several times today as a liar.... or that he has been lying.... I don't think I painted him in any kind of great light today??? I thought I said very strongly I was over his elaborate lies.

I'm not sure this changed anything I said. But I'm obviously upsetting you and that's not my goal. So I'll just bow out and leave you in the capable hands of the others posting in your thread. KC I truly pray for healing for you.

[KitCat]

EDIT: I also think this is why you cannot bring yourself to type the words: he is a lying cheater. I think you believe deep down, that it is fixable....... If you can put all the blame on yourself (*I drove him into the OW's arms!") then it is something that can be fixed ("I have reversed the behaviors that drove him to this!"). But to admit that he is a lying cheater is to admit that he is fundamentally flawed and therefore the hope for reconciliation is almost NIL due to that.

Peace.

I thought I referred to him several times today as a liar.... or that he has been lying.... I don't think I painted him in any kind of great light today??? I thought I said very strongly I was over his elaborate lies.

I'm not sure this changed anything I said. But I'm obviously upsetting you and that's not my goal. So I'll just bow out and leave you in the capable hands of the others posting in your thread. KC I truly pray for healing for you.

Steve85 -- I'm not trying to get you to change anything you said but perhaps to realize that you are judging me with the same eyes from 4 months ago.

You are telling me that I cannot bring myself to type the words lying cheater --- yet as I pointed out I clearly stated many times in the last 24hr that he is a liar and I'm tired of his elaborate lies... so wait yes I did just type those things... right there.

You give very remarkable insight to other but you are also incredibly judgemental and forceful on your personal opinions.

You state over and over and over how many of us here have H's that are lying cheaters and worthless. Not worth saving any M with a lying cheater.

Yet you are here because you had a lying cheating spouse as well.... I'll say it again - you had a lying cheating spouse as well.

You quantify it repeatedly --- well if it was a PA I was done but it was only an EA so not as big a deal. But, really??? How do you know Steve85. We can all talk big in the moment but when faced that our loved one, our family our choices become very skewed. You came here struggling to save your M like the rest of us so you cannot know what you would do if it was a PA... you can only speculate and feel that yeah your line is the sand was solid.

Wasn't she sharing pics??? EWWWW... how is that not crossing a physical barrier??? She's getting d*ck pics and he's getting crotch pics??? These things are a more permanent record - saved to the cloud for eternity perhaps.

And, didn't you state that you were a terrible H at the time? How you repaired and worked on your short comings as an H and father?

NO. Neither one of us are responsible for the choices that others make. That is there burden to carry.

But, like you I can see the ways in which I could see why my H felt neglected and rejected. I didn't realize my actions made him feel that way and how empty he was feeling. He didn't realize how much at the time I was stuck in my own head/issues. Did I force him into OW's arms? Literally of course not. Do I see the role that I played - absolutely yes, I do. Knowing that my H's love language is physical touch did I drop the ball - yup I did. No amount of housecleaning, food prepping, getting laundry done while working a full time job myself which to me said this is how much I love you was getting the job done --- it wasn't his love language.

You made choices to change your behavior. Hoped it was enough to turn your M around and for you it was --- fantastic!!!!

But, keep in mind when you toss out telling people that they should walk away from lying cheaters and how they will always lie.... remember you decided to keep your lying cheater.

I'm well aware of the changes my H would have to make for this M to become salvageable if ever. I would never just leave my front door open for him to willy nilly come home when he wanted to.

I wore my ring because I stood for my M. For better or for worse ---- I never took that lightly. Maybe one day he will be my XH - I don't know. I don't predict the future.

But, I have created more boundaries based on his behavior on Sunday. This calling and acting like he is a friend and sharing this story and that story... all while I know he is lying. That I opted to text about said lies and even then he is texting me completely not getting it, but I want no friendship with a liar.

This has been a process. I accept and acknowledge that I am not only dealing with the implosion of my M but also a big life transition as S19 leaves the home.

I'm flooded with some painful memories from the past - why did I handle that way? Could have I handled it differently? Why would I have done or said that? Was I part of the problem with my H and his kids? Did I help or make things worse? Did I hold my stepkids to the same expectations as my son? Was that the right thing to do? Was I accommodating enough for them? Sure, there is not a parent out there that doesn't question or in hindsight would have made other choices.

I'm working through all of that. I'm making progress and peace.

Right now I accept that my H wants nothing to do with me and I'm doing my best to walk away.

[LH19]

KK I understand what you are saying about Steve's hypocrisy and judgement but he really is trying to help you. It can be frustrating because you have some really good posters giving you advice and you seem to ignore. It's like you know better then Steve, AS, Ginger, Job and myself who have seen 1,000s of these play out.

For some reason you think your STBXH has no right to lie to you. You still have expectations of him. I have one expectation of my EXW. Be a good mom. (sometimes that's a stretch) Anything else leads to disappointment.

But, like you I can see the ways in which I could see why my H felt neglected and rejected. I didn't realize my actions made him feel that way and how empty he was feeling. He didn't realize how much at the time I was stuck in my own head/issues. Did I force him into OW's arms? Literally of course not. Do I see the role that I played - absolutely yes, I do. Knowing that my H's love language is physical touch did I drop the ball - yup I did. No amount of housecleaning, food prepping, getting laundry done while working a full time job myself which to me said this is how much I love you was getting the job done --- it wasn't his love language.

This is good stuff KK. Acknowledging you break down of the marriage and working on fixing it. I just wish you would consider IC. To me that's what DB is all about. Making sure it doesn't happen again in future relationships.

I wore my ring because I stood for my M. For better or for worse ---- I never took that lightly. Maybe one day he will be my XH - I don't know. I don't predict the future.

That certainly is your right.

But, I have created more boundaries based on his behavior on Sunday. This calling and acting like he is a friend and sharing this story and that story... all while I know he is lying. That I opted to text about said lies and even then he is texting me completely not getting it, but I want no friendship with a liar.

You don't want to be friends with him period.

This has been a process. I accept and acknowledge that I am not only dealing with the implosion of my M but also a big life transition as S19 leaves the home.

It is a lot to handle and I am sorry this is hitting you at once.

I'm flooded with some painful memories from the past - why did I handle that way? Could have I handled it differently? Why would I have done or said that? Was I part of the problem with my H and his kids? Did I help or make things worse? Did I hold my stepkids to the same expectations as my son? Was that the right thing to do? Was I accommodating enough for them? Sure, there is not a parent out there that doesn't question or in hindsight would have made other choices.

It's ok to visit but please do not live in the past. What happened happened and it couldn't happen any other way because it didn't.

I'm working through all of that. I'm making progress and peace.

Great!

Right now I accept that my H wants nothing to do with me and I'm doing my best to walk away.

It's a process.

[SteveLW]

EDIT: I also think this is why you cannot bring yourself to type the words: he is a lying cheater. I think you believe deep down, that it is fixable....... If you can put all the blame on yourself (*I drove him into the OW's arms!") then it is something that can be fixed ("I have reversed the behaviors that drove him to this!"). But to admit that he is a lying cheater is to admit that he is fundamentally flawed and therefore the hope for reconciliation is almost NIL due to that.

Peace.

I thought I referred to him several times today as a liar.... or that he has been lying.... I don't think I painted him in any kind of great light today??? I thought I said very strongly I was over his elaborate lies.

I'm not sure this changed anything I said. But I'm obviously upsetting you and that's not my goal. So I'll just bow out and leave you in the capable hands of the others posting in your thread. KC I truly pray for healing for you.

Steve85 -- I'm not trying to get you to change anything you said but perhaps to realize that you are judging me with the same eyes from 4 months ago.

You are telling me that I cannot bring myself to type the words lying cheater --- yet as I pointed out I clearly stated many times in the last 24hr that he is a liar and I'm tired of his elaborate lies... so wait yes I did just type those things... right there.

You give very remarkable insight to other but you are also incredibly judgemental and forceful on your personal opinions.

You state over and over and over how many of us here have H's that are lying cheaters and worthless. Not worth saving any M with a lying cheater.

Yet you are here because you had a lying cheating spouse as well.... I'll say it again - you had a lying cheating spouse as well.

You quantify it repeatedly --- well if it was a PA I was done but it was only an EA so not as big a deal. But, really??? How do you know Steve85. We can all talk big in the moment but when faced that our loved one, our family our choices become very skewed. You came here struggling to save your M like the rest of us so you cannot know what you would do if it was a PA... you can only speculate and feel that yeah your line is the sand was solid.

Wasn't she sharing pics??? EWWWW... how is that not crossing a physical barrier??? She's getting d*ck pics and he's getting crotch pics??? These things are a more permanent record - saved to the cloud for eternity perhaps.

And, didn't you state that you were a terrible H at the time? How you repaired and worked on your short comings as an H and father?

NO. Neither one of us are responsible for the choices that others make. That is there burden to carry.

But, like you I can see the ways in which I could see why my H felt neglected and rejected. I didn't realize my actions made him feel that way and how empty he was feeling. He didn't realize how much at the time I was stuck in my own head/issues. Did I force him into OW's arms? Literally of course not. Do I see the role that I played - absolutely yes, I do. Knowing that my H's love language is physical touch did I drop the ball - yup I did. No amount of housecleaning, food prepping, getting laundry done while working a full time job myself which to me said this is how much I love you was getting the job done --- it wasn't his love language.

You made choices to change your behavior. Hoped it was enough to turn your M around and for you it was --- fantastic!!!!

But, keep in mind when you toss out telling people that they should walk away from lying cheaters and how they will always lie.... remember you decided to keep your lying cheater.

I'm well aware of the changes my H would have to make for this M to become salvageable if ever. I would never just leave my front door open for him to willy nilly come home when he wanted to.

I wore my ring because I stood for my M. For better or for worse ---- I never took that lightly. Maybe one day he will be my XH - I don't know. I don't predict the future.

But, I have created more boundaries based on his behavior on Sunday. This calling and acting like he is a friend and sharing this story and that story... all while I know he is lying. That I opted to text about said lies and even then he is texting me completely not getting it, but I want no friendship with a liar.

This has been a process. I accept and acknowledge that I am not only dealing with the implosion of my M but also a big life transition as S19 leaves the home.

I'm flooded with some painful memories from the past - why did I handle that way? Could have I handled it differently? Why would I have done or said that? Was I part of the problem with my H and his kids? Did I help or make things worse? Did I hold my stepkids to the same expectations as my son? Was that the right thing to do? Was I accommodating enough for them? Sure, there is not a parent out there that doesn't question or in hindsight would have made other choices.

I'm working through all of that. I'm making progress and peace.

Right now I accept that my H wants nothing to do with me and I'm doing my best to walk away.

Wasn't going to respond anymore but since you responded to me directly:

Yes, my wife was a lying cheater. I said that at the time. I even said it to her. And yes, while she was a lying cheater (even just an EA) there was no way to reconcile. But what I did do that you aren't willing to do, was to drop the rope and move on with my life. It wasn't until I did that....FOR ME, that she had a change of heart. But even if she hadn't, I was going to be awesome and live my best life post-D.

Sorry you see me as judgmental. Yes there are differences between PAs and EAs. In PAs you should not have sex with the cheating spouse. You should kick them out of the marital bedroom. Other than that, everything else is the same. If you read my threads you'll see that 1) yes I struggled, but 2) I also got really good at GAL, 180ing AND....DETACHMENT!! The first two were meaningless without the last one. And it was after I started really doing that last one well that she started to change her mind.

You called him a liar. Good. But he is still a cheating liar. And you still get worked up over what he says (or doesn't say) and does (or doesn't do). Until you can act "as if" no matter what he says or does you will continue to struggle.

Again, I pray for nothing else but healing for you. I think you know how many of us think your best way to do that, but that is another piece of advice you dismiss.

[KitCat]

KK I understand what you are saying about Steve's hypocrisy and judgement but he really is trying to help you. It can be frustrating because you have some really good posters giving you advice and you seem to ignore. It's like you know better then Steve, AS, Ginger, Job and myself who have seen 1,000s of these play out.

I greatly appreciate EVERYONE'S advice. This has been a long arduous journey that has been far from perfect when you throw in human emotion but I have come a long way in the last 5 months.

I don't deliberately ignore advice - but I don't list a play by play like its a sport event.

Frankly, emotions are tough. Its always easier to give a friend advice because you have no emotional attachment to whatever the outcome.

I realized that I'm being driven by emotion... and I'm working on that. To get to a place where my actions are driven by emotional reaction. Its a process and it certainly isn't linear - I have good days and bad.

For some reason you think your STBXH has no right to lie to you. You still have expectations of him. I have one expectation of my EXW. Be a good mom. (sometimes that's a stretch) Anything else leads to disappointment.

I'm working on having zero exceptions of him. Its not that I'm acting like he has no right to lie to me - he can do whatever he chooses. I'm acting like I do not need to accept his behavior of lying... and I don't. I will not deal with someone lying to me --- not interested.

This is good stuff KK. Acknowledging you break down of the marriage and working on fixing it. I just wish you would consider IC. To me that's what DB is all about. Making sure it doesn't happen again in future relationships.

That's the plan. I know at times I was down right awful to him. And, frankly he was too me too ---- when you work 12's 7 days a week on end and commute 2hr a day and don't get much sleep you can be a nasty person. I tried a lot to be understanding but sometimes I just got defensive.

After BD he was burning the candle at both ends even more. He overslept for work. I got him up and helped him get ready for work by packing his cooler, etc. He was hateful and nasty.

Later I called him out on it. I told him I knew they very last thing he ever wanted was to miss work or be late for work. He agreed. I told him I understood he was stressed and exhausted but he didn't have to treat me like garbage when I was just trying to help --- he said he wasn't treating me badly... what??? When I explained that he had he apologized.

After that night he started to say things like "thank you for getting me up", etc. Sometimes I don't think he realized how he came across when he was tired and I just internalized that as criticism which led to me being defensive.

I know the changes I'm working on in myself ---- I think I expected him to read my mind and when he didn't I would become hurt. Dumb... totally dumb but there it is.

You don't want to be friends with him period.

I know.... but I also don't want to be hateful. I thought I did a decent job of just being cordial without being overly friendly during his many trips to move out. I didn't push or ask for things and was surprised when he offerred things - to the point I did not know how to react. Still confused and maybe he was too - he followed up with nothing. Weird but whatever. Not holding on to it.

It's ok to visit but please do not live in the past. What happened happened and it couldn't happen any other way because it didn't.

I realize that. These were issues I was being hit with last week. I've processed them. I had a moment in the mix of them where I wanted to ask/apologize if any thing I did made things worse with his kids. There is one thing in particular which he hated that I did. In my head I thought I was helping, truly. In his head it came across that I was looking for something to be bad. I realized why I did it --- because I did love and care for my stepkids and felt they were slipping between the cracks. But, it would have been best if I had stayed in my lane with this particular thing. If I could go back that is definitely something I would do.

I just really had this huge urge to apologize last week for that.

Maybe someday I'll get the chance. I know 100% right now he isn't in a place to hear an apology and know its truly heart felt and from a lot of self reflection.

Either way I'm just trying to pack all the emotions and drama way at least for week.... and then try to make it a second week.

I'm proud of myself that I did not get baited into texting me back when he texted me and told me "don't be bitchy because I took a ride"... I'm glad I walked away from that.

[KitCat]

You called him a liar. Good. But he is still a cheating liar. And you still get worked up over what he says (or doesn't say) and does (or doesn't do). Until you can act "as if" no matter what he says or does you will continue to struggle.

Again, I pray for nothing else but healing for you. I think you know how many of us think your best way to do that, but that is another piece of advice you dismiss.

I realize I still have a lot of emotional skin in the game for sure.

Do I need to come here and vent and get angry and get it out - absolutely. Have I taken the steps where I stop reacting to him directly --- oh yes... You may see me come here a complete basketcase and/or doing a mini rage but does he see that or know that??? No, right now he is just getting silence.

I've been silent with him before... he texts... he texts some more... then he has some stupid reason to call and I answer. But, he asked to talk to me the other day - I imagine it was because he got caught in his own lie/snooping and frankly I said "no". And, I didn't engage.

I'm making progress. Maybe not on the same timeline that you did... but I'm chugging along.

I want nothing more than to drop the rope. I'm getting there.

[Ginger1]

I would cease the phone calls. No reason for them at al whatsoever and they frankly only do you harm and no good

[mtb1981]

You need to detach
You need to go no contact
This is a haiku

[LH19]

[quote=LH19] Frankly, emotions are tough. Its always easier to give a friend advice because you have no emotional attachment to whatever the outcome.

I agree 100%. That is why there are very little recons on this board prior to D. When you can't control your emotions you act out of desperation and the WW can smell the stench of it a mile away and it just solidifies they are making the right choice.

KK I think it is ok to apologize if you are doing it without expectation and it helps easing the guilt. You'll get through this one way or another. It's up to you if you want to make things more difficult for yourself.

[SteveLW]

You need to detach
You need to go no contact
This is a haiku

This literally had my laughing out loud.......