May, the custody arrangement you mentioned sounds... stressful. If you believe it will be a scorched earth kinda divorce, consider how seeing (X)H on a daily basis might make you feel. If your interactions with him are strained, as you suggest they will be, the kids could end up living in a constant state of tension around these frequent handovers. Being unable to have their evening routine at dad’s place might also interfere with their ability to feel comfortable in what will be their other home. I have to ask, would this be an attempt to keep OW from being involved in your kids’ lives? Trust me, I COMPLETELY understand wanting to have your little chicks safe in the nest every night. I also completely understand the feeling that H doesn’t deserve to recreate the lovely family life he chose to leave. I’m just wondering what the downside would be for the kids to spend three or so nights a week with their dad if he is the fantastic father you say he is? For instance, what are your objections to a 4-4-3-3 arrangement, or some other form of 50-50 custody? Curious what H’s thoughts are about not having any weekday evenings if you’ve already discussed this with him. This is by far the worst part of S/D and I just encourage you make sure your motivations align with your principles. I’m sure you are doing that already, but I’m interested in how you came up with this unusual arrangement.
I am also going to chime in on the 50/5@ custody schedule you have outlines.
I don’t have 50/50. More like 70/30. But my daughter has been at this for 13 years. (She’s 13) and she’s been vocal about what works for her. Splitting nights is very stressful on the kids. Having to shift gears so much, not being able to settle in for the night, knowing they go from school, to one home to any other is just too much. My daughter greatly expresses the less movement, the better.
The hardest part is deciding what’s best for us, vs. what’s best for them. And making so many transitions in one day is just too much. I know of course you want as much time as you’d an have with them, and will miss them when they are at the other parents house...... but I can tell you, it won’t work for them. What’s worked for a lot that I know have 50/50 is every other weekend, one mare to gets Monday Tuesday, the other gets Wednesday Thursday .
I’m not telling you what to do, but I thought I might be able to help given I’ve been doing this for so long. The split week nights are just to much for them
This is so helpful to be able to walk through this with other people. Here's where I'm coming from:
H has said for months now that if we S/D, what he wants is for me to stay in the house with the girls. This is their home and he doesn't want that to change. He thinks the stress of going back and forth would be too much. His original idea was that he'd pay half the mortgage and half the bills, would get to keep all his cr@p in the basement (tools, surfboards, etc), have a key, stay half owner of the house, girls would live with me here full time, he'd pick them up from school (he can be done working much earlier than me), take them to soccer or whatever, and we'd have dinner together most nights as a family then he'd go home to OW. He'd still mow the lawn, take care of the house and take care of me.
I have consistently said no, this would never ever work.
He maintains he needs to see the children every day. Being a father is a major part of his identity and he doesn't want to go a day without seeing them. Also, his ideal would be that he and AP would live next door. he has said that even a 20 minute drive is too far away from them. He wants to be around the corner.
On my end, having the children sleep here and waking up with them is really important to me. We have a ritual where every weekend morning (and right now every single morning because of COVID) the girls come snuggle with me in bed and we chat and cuddle for awhile. H sometimes joins in, but he's a morning person and is usually already off working or surfing. It is our thing and I love love love it. I had told H early on, before I even knew about AP but knew he was unhappy, ILYB etc., that one of my biggest fears in being Ded was waking up to an empty house.
Also, in my state, child support depends on how many nights they sleep at your house-- so a 50/50 arrangement where they sleep half the nights at mom's and half the nights at dad's means there is no child support, unless one party makes more money than the other, in which case there is some amount based on the discrepancy that goes to the lower earning party (the idea being that they don't want the kids to live in a mansion with one parent and a $hithole with the other). I was worried, for awhile, that I might have to pay HIM because of this but this year we're actually making about the same amount of money. I looked into child support because I don't want him on the deed or the mortgage and I don't trust that he'd just "give" me half the mortgage plus bills... also, the calculated child support amount is significantly more than half the mortgage. I also don't think he has looked at any of this at all. I can't afford this mortgage without child support or I suppose major lifestyle changes.
Of the Ded families I know well enough to know their schedule-- my neighbor does 4/3/3/4, the friend with the super high conflict D splits the week and does every other weekend, the friend with the surface idyllic co-parenting has the daughter sleep with her every night, but she works really long hours and so drops the daughter off at the dad's (he lives down the hill from her) on her way into work, he walks her to school and picks her up after, and the mom grabs her from his house after work. They switch off weekends. And my final friends who used to have dinners and vacation together for the past five years-- until he met someone else, promptly got her pregnant, and she hates the exW (loooong story)-- the dad has primary custody and the mom has the kid one night during the week and every other weekend, though the mom might have more time now that the dad has a new baby and the new GF doesn't really like the older son or want him around much.
Yes, Scout, I absolutely want to keep them away from OW. I have written into the agreement (not that he has seen it yet LOL but I did it for me to be prepared) that either of us would need to see someone for a year post-separation to introduce them to the children and two years before sleeping over at the house in front of them. I don't know if he'd go for that. I've told him that I don't want her part of their lives and I don't want them ever to meet her. Obviously that would be ridiculous but I figured I'd put something out there to start negotiating from. And, I really think it isn't good for the children to have a parade of "friends" going through their lives.
Anyway, that is pretty much where this all came from-- started with him, I decided I'd be fine with the after school pick up till 5:30 since I'd usually be working then anyway so it would be extra time, basically, that we used to not have them, and it wouldn't cut into my regular time with them every day. He wants to take them on hikes and adventures anyway so he could have that time to do that kind of thing-- that is his heaven. I could pick them up (with my sunglasses on :)) or he could drop them off, I'm not imagining the need for face to face contact on a daily basis. I had originally proposed to him verbally with this that he could take them for one full weekend day and he'd said he imagined they'd stay Friday nights with him, so I penciled that all out and I think if he drops them back with me on Saturday at 5:30 pm we each get 17 waking hours over the weekend.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Trying to control your H on who he dates or when he introduces them to the kids. You could have an agreement but it would never be legally binding. You could potentially rant and rave and get yourself all upset when it does happen... what do you gain? You are potentially creating a bigger world of hurt for yourself.
You have to picture a life of D that you have no say in Hs life or what he does with the kids when he is with them... that rule goes both ways.
I feel you are just spinning your wheels trying to place rules on your H of what life will be if you D. Just as you find it ridiculous that he is going to continue to live at your home like a happy family until night time... that's how he is going to ser your rules.
If you are looking at S or D you need to limit thoughts to what you can do legally and what you truly have control of which is just yourself.
Maybe putting that focus 100% back on yourself is what you need to strive for. If you are thinking about D you are going to have to come to terms that your children will not be with you every morning. It's a terrible thought... it nearly broke me when my son was just 2... but you find a new normal. And, it does get to the point that you are ready for those breaks when they are away because you make the most if when you have them.
I'm sorry your H is so wishy washy and living in fantasy world. The back and forth of it all has to be exhausting.
May, your strength is really shining right now. I’m so pleased to read that you are standing firm with H and his behaviours, and ensuring you do what’s right for you over this trip.
I know you had a boundary around him blocking AP and deleting WhatsApp ahead of the trip, but is there anything else you want or need in order to go? (I have been trying to catch up daily but might have missed some posts). Are you wanting him to commit to the M before you agree to go? I’m just wondering what long term assurances you need before you can go - if any. Or is it simply a case of a month-long trip without her in the picture...but then what? In what capacity would you go on this trip? Mother? Wife? Friend/Co-parent?
Re the custody arrangement, I know how awful it is for your children to go and spend time in another home, leaving you alone. It’s not what you signed up to, and I totally felt resentful that H had taken away my M, my H, potentially my home and also my children. Why should HE get to live the life he wants whilst mine is in tatters? It certainly was a bitter pill to swallow, and it was painful. But I came to realise that those nights without the children were time for me. Where is May’s time in this arrangement? Hiking with friends one weekend, dinner or night out with bestie, maybe one day a date, or perhaps simply watching a film that’s not age-appropriate for your kiddos, or an indulgent bath and early night in an empty house? I’m not suggesting that this is how you are, but I found looking beyond the pain of my H taking my children from me, there were ways I could make the time alone to be a gift. You need time to GAL, right? To get out there and meet potential partners. This might be so far off your radar right now , but whilst you’re at home with the children every night, you aren’t out meeting OM. I’m not suggesting this as a manipulation technique but equally it doesn’t harm for H to know you want time to get out make new friends.
I will also admit, perhaps ashamedly, perhaps unashamedly, that I often thought about how I could make life difficult for H and I figured that any controlling on my part would make me look bitter. I’m a little worried about you exerting any 1-year/2year rule re other partners. It is an important discussion to have but perhaps it needs to be a discussion and not a condition that you set out? If H is the great father that you really see, then he will fully subscribe to the sensitivity of introducing a new woman into his children’s lives. If he does this prematurely, chances are they will gravitate towards you and may manifest behaviours about not wanting to see him in her presence. Perhaps I am projecting my own experience but my Ds were fiercely loyal and said the would not be ready for a long time to accept a new woman in their dad’s life. (It’s probably wholly irrelevant but I have been trying to figure out how your H and AP are going to build this dream life together, on his reduced spending capacity, and her needing to move interstate but not move in with him until such a time that he can introduce her to the children. I suppose that rational thinking goes out of the window in the name of true love.... ugh)
May, you are doing brilliantly and whatever the outcome you will will have been true to yourself and your children. You deserve so much happiness. I hope a-hole can pull something out of the bag before the trip, but if he can’t , one day you will know that you acted on what you deserve, which wasn’t second best. I am so rooting for you honey, tonight’s G&T will be for you and your happy life xx
Last edited by Pommy99; 07/18/2005:49 PM.
M:49 H:49 T:20 M:18 D:16 D:14
EA: Feb 2019-May 2020 Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020 H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020 EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020 Recon #2: since Nov 2020
Regarding custody arrangements: it doesn't really matter what is best for you, or for your H and his OW, or what is more convenient, or fits in better with yours and his work schedules. It only matters what is better for your kids, and that might be an arrangement that evolves. It isn't something you can work out on the back of an envelope now.
These terms are very favorable towards you in terms of him paying 100% support and the kids staying with you every night. Once he finally detaches from you there's a good chance OW will convince him to re-negotiate. My GF also have VERY favorable child support terms. She built into the agreement that they get a little less favorable every 4 years. That reduces the urge of the ex-H to fight to improve them, which obvious he can, since he's facing four more years of pain instead of twenty.
Prepare for a highly favorable planned schedule being temporary. He may want to change the terms to 50% custody and 0% support or every other weekend custody and 75% support, he may ignore the terms on when and how to introduce the OW, and that daily hand-offs might become anxious events for your kids.
Regarding custody arrangements: it doesn't really matter what is best for you, or for your H and his OW, or what is more convenient, or fits in better with yours and his work schedules. It only matters what is better for your kids, and that might be an arrangement that evolves. It isn't something you can work out on the back of an envelope now.
I am just so not prepared for this, yet. I know you're right. I'm not ready.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
These terms are very favorable towards you in terms of him paying 100% support and the kids staying with you every night. Once he finally detaches from you there's a good chance OW will convince him to re-negotiate. My GF also have VERY favorable child support terms. She built into the agreement that they get a little less favorable every 4 years. That reduces the urge of the ex-H to fight to improve them, which obvious he can, since he's facing four more years of pain instead of twenty.
Prepare for a highly favorable planned schedule being temporary. He may want to change the terms to 50% custody and 0% support or every other weekend custody and 75% support, he may ignore the terms on when and how to introduce the OW, and that daily hand-offs might become anxious events for your kids.
Yes. You're right. This is why, while I briefly flirted with the idea of moving towards D myself in order to secure more favorable terms for myself (seeing what was going on with Wooba, also), after much thought and knowing H as well as I do, I decided it was just a mirage and would never stick. He'll absolutely want to move to 50-50 even if the first round gets me what I want. The only thing that is potentially at risk is the house-- if we D a couple years down the line and he's bitter, he really loves this house. But I wouldn't cry about selling it if we had to. So preemptive filing no longer makes sense, for me, from this perspective.
KC, I hear you. I don't actually care if he thinks I'm a control freak once we split. Zero percent of what I do will be in any attempt to make him think one thing or another about me, unless I think it is important for the kids. I think this has all been a good exercise for me but I feel myself retreating back into the not wanting to D place because of it. I'm just not ready to embrace this future. If it comes, fine. I'll deal with it. I can't willingly go there right now given what it means-- and not just what is best for the children, but what it means in terms of the time I get with them and the control I have as a parent.
I have an acquaintance who Ded from her H maybe 5-6 years ago. I had drinks with her one night and she was talking about how her H was doing dumb, potentially dangerous things with their child-- not illegal, just stupid. I can't remember exactly what it was. She said if she had known how divorcing would have removed her voice in how her ex parented, she would not have done it. That she had totally underestimated how much they collaborated in parenting before and not having any say in what he did with their child when the kid was with the dad was excruciating and she felt dangerous. A year or so later, we were out for drinks with some other people and they showed up together and left together-- apparently they have gotten back together. That conversation always stuck with me and I've wondered how much that parenting factor led to their R.
Pommy... Pommy!! it is so good to hear from you. How are YOU?? We need an update, please!
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I know you had a boundary around him blocking AP and deleting WhatsApp ahead of the trip, but is there anything else you want or need in order to go? (I have been trying to catch up daily but might have missed some posts). Are you wanting him to commit to the M before you agree to go? I’m just wondering what long term assurances you need before you can go - if any. Or is it simply a case of a month-long trip without her in the picture...but then what? In what capacity would you go on this trip? Mother? Wife? Friend/Co-parent?
I'm asking that he make a commitment to remove her from his life for good, or at least go into it with that intention. So not that he won't be in contact with her for this trip, but that his intention is to not be in contact with her for good. I'd prefer that he commits to the M before the trip but I don't think that is possible right now. I don't want to vacation together worrying that AP will reach out today or tomorrow or next month and throw another bomb. I think *he* wants to have a nice family vacation as a little test run, honestly, and I just think that is stupid and impossible while you keep one foot in the door for AP. I want that door shut firmly. He says he wants me to understand him and to be open and vulnerable with him, to not shut down and put up my boundaries or default to anger when we start talking about difficult things, but I told him that is simply not possible for me to do with AP waiting in the wings. It just won't happen. If he wants to really try to see if our R could be fixed, letting her go completely is a necessary step. if he can't do that, then we shouldn't bother.
I don't think it is realistic at this point for either of us to expect that just because she's gone that our R will work out. But there is just no point to pretending to even try to work on our M while she's hovering around in the background. I think if we go it will be more as friends/co-parents.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I came to realise that those nights without the children were time for me. Where is May’s time in this arrangement? Hiking with friends one weekend, dinner or night out with bestie, maybe one day a date, or perhaps simply watching a film that’s not age-appropriate for your kiddos, or an indulgent bath and early night in an empty house? I’m not suggesting that this is how you are, but I found looking beyond the pain of my H taking my children from me, there were ways I could make the time alone to be a gift. You need time to GAL, right? To get out there and meet potential partners. This might be so far off your radar right now , but whilst you’re at home with the children every night, you aren’t out meeting OM. I’m not suggesting this as a manipulation technique but equally it doesn’t harm for H to know you want time to get out make new friends.
Yes, I've thought of this, and I do love me some me time. That is part of why my proposal had him taking the kids Friday nights, so that I could do my own thing. And, writing in first right of refusal for watching the children, because I have work events other nights sometimes and would probably want to do other things other nights, and I know I could ask him to take the kids (either at my house or his) for those times. In my head, if AP was here and living with him, he'd either not take them to the house when he had them-- spend the time outside which is what he loves anyway-- or she would have to vamoose. And they couldn't spend the night there until enough time had gone by. I know this is all unrealistic but since I truly can't even tiptoe into picturing her with my children without wanting to rip heads off of chickens, I need to stay away from that place right now, and proposing these terms was where I wanted to start. And yes, I was not thinking of it like my conditions, more like the starting point for negotiations/discussions.
I have a new gin to try and will raise a G&T to you tonight, Pommy! Much love.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May, I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, but there was zero mention of the kids’ needs in that explanation. Just a) H getting what he wants, b) May getting what she wants, c) May punishing H for leaving. In that order.
I think this is still the fantasy D; not just for your H, but for you as well. You’re enabling his entitlement, selfishness, and refusal to take responsibility with this arrangement, and allowing this because it suits you and you’re afraid of the alternatives. But this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best arrangement for the kids. His parenting time consists of daily hikes and outings, a fun sleepover once a week, and a weekend day for adventures? What about homework, meals, chores, bedtime, and the morning sh!tshow? He gets out of all that quite nicely. Your kids will very quickly understand that H is the fun parent and that Mum’s house means rules and drudgery, and they might resent you and disrespect him.
If they are out gallivanting with H on his time, they will likely just want to crash when they’re with you. They’ll be grumpy and tired and you won’t get the quality time that you deserve. But more importantly, the kids will get jack of being treated like shared toys between the two of you. You both want to play with them, but when would they get any downtime to just chill out at home, whichever home that might be? How will they feel about three hours here, three hours there once they get into high school and want to hang out with their friends or do extracurricular activities? How will they feel being shuttled between homes every day of the week? How would you feel if it were you?
Just gently pointing out that not allowing them at H’s place when OW is there could make them feel unsafe around this person who will be a large part of their lives.
I totally get wanting to maintain stability for the kids. I just don’t think this is where your H is coming from with this plan, and I think you’re going with it because you’re afraid to lose control. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong though - this is just my opinion. This is all hypothetical and and it’s meant with love
PS. As someone whose OW appears to be deeply involved in my kid’s life, let me tell you that you won’t want to rip heads off chickens forever. It’ll hurt the first time it happens. It will get easier. Then one day you’ll realise you’ve reached acceptance and you truly don’t care any more. And let me tell you, it’s a wonderful place to be.
You're right. This plan may not be the best for the children. It does allow me to afford to keep the house, which we both think is important for them to have a home rather than shuttle back and forth. I hadn't thought about them being tired and cranky and me being homework mom and him being fun dad. Honestly? This all just $UCKS.
I'm just not ready to take this step on my own. I'll figure it out if I need to, and like Alison says, it will change and the kids have to be at the center and it isn't something I can do on the back of the envelope right now. Maybe we'll get them into therapy and get assistance in figuring out what is best.
The thing is... I simply don't want this. Not for them, not for me. And the other truth is, I don't think my H does either. He talks a big game when it comes to twu wuv (I loved that BTW) and he deserves happiness and all the rest. But when his fantasy is starting to fade, between me not buying into his dream D and AP wanting more children... I really don't think he wants to go and experience all the $hitty reality of what that entails. He doesn't want to sleep in a different house from the children either. He kisses them before he goes to sleep every single night. One night a couple of weeks ago he came to bed crying after he did it at the thought that he might not get to do that every night. I really don't think he wants this any more than I do.
I'm just sticking to the course right now. He'll do whatever he does and we'll go forward from there. I think I'm done worrying about it for right now. It takes too much energy. He'll do whatever he does and I'll deal with it. He says we're going on this trip. He had an extra IC appointment this morning, came upstairs afterwards and hugged me and said this is all hard. Just gotta do the next right thing (we just watched Frozen 2 again). So. We'll see. I think I've reached the IDGAF stage.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
