So, it's been a strange few days and I feel like I've either taken a big step back in my marriage or a big step forward in detachment. I genuinely don't know, and I'd appreciate a sanity check on this.
H had a work disappointment recently and he took is pretty hard. Generally the way he deals with stress and anxiety is to withdraw and (in my view) drink a bit too much. I could see this was happening, and it never works when I try to draw him out of his shell, and I also don't care to be around him when he's drinking, so I just gave him some space and left him to it.
On one of these nights, he came to bed while I was still awake. I put my arms around him and said 'is there anything I can do to help you or comfort you?' and he said 'no,' - pretty gruffly. I could feel he wasn't welcoming my touching him (it wasn't a sexual touch, just a hug) so I let go, said good night and turned over to go to sleep. A few minutes later he said 'you're not going to start crying and having a go at me now, are you?' - I had some headphones in so I took them out and turned around and asked him what the problem was, and he said the same thing again, but in a really beligerent manner. I said, 'I just want to go to sleep,' and he asked me again if I was sure I just wanted to go to sleep. I was baffled. By that point it was pretty clear he was slightly the worse for wear for drink and I remembered how it went the last time I gave him an inch of listening room while he was drinking - and I do have a boundary around that - so I just turned over and went to sleep.
In the morning he was quite sullen with me. I asked again if there was anything I could do to help him and he said no again, and I said, 'okay. And the way you spoke to me last night was not acceptable to me. I did nothing wrong, and it isn't okay for you to treat me that way no matter how you are feeling. You owe me an apology.' He rolled his eyes and sniggered (I haven't seen that petty and sarcastic side of him for a good while) so I left the room.
Since then - that was about three days ago - I have kept my distance. We've been perfectly cordial and communicating when necessary for the sake of practicalities and the children. We're like ships in the night anyway - working and homeschooling and relay parenting - so this wouldn't be unusual - except he won't make eye contact with me, there's no friendly or affectionate touches, he sits in a room on his own with his headphones on when he's not engaging with the children and after they've gone to bed, and that's it. It's basically like an in-house separation.
This was the kind of treatment that used to drive me to all kinds of crazy behaviour before BD. I think part of it is self preservation - I suspect he's exhausted, and he's taken his work disappointment to heart and is feeling some humiliation (he is MASSIVELY motivated by what he imagines other people think of him - he's a man that runs on shame) so much of this is nothing to do with me. I also think he's feeling controlled by my request that he apologise to me. I think I reacted in that moment as I was thinking about that night - a couple of months ago now - where he turned up to bed drunk and started tearing into me out of the blue, taking out all his self-inflicted resentments and complaints on me. It was hurtful and I was so clear it was never to happen again. I was scared it was about to happen which is why i cut off a frankly strange line of questioning from him and went to sleep, and why I was so trenchant with him the next morning - I really need him to know I will no longer take this &#*$ from him. But he probably feels told off, and he used to tell me quite often 'when you're not nice to be around, I won't be around you' and then give me days and days of stonewalling and silent treatment like this. I am struggling today to pick apart the two - how much of this is his self preservation in a time of stress - and how much of this is punishing behaviour.
What's different is that I am not being driven crazy. I am not distressed or hurt or desperately trying to placate him or cajole him into being nice to me again. I will never go back to that. I'm not doing any of the pursuer type behaviours I used to do. I also don't feel the stress or anxiety or sense of worthlessness that I used to feel. I feel a bit of pity for him, and, if I am honest, a fair bit of the old contempt - that he's still in the habit of treating his wife like this when there's something going on either in his life or in his marriage that isn't to his liking.
I am taking care of myself. The kids. Working and getting outside and doing my share in the house and seeing my friends. I am trying to take into account that he's working hard in a stressful role and has had little time to himself for weeks. I am also trying to take into account that we're different people, and while my way would be to talk things through, his way - to let things lie - isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think in the past if he'd have rejected my attempt to get close or comfort him I would have been upset or nagging or distressed and made it all about me and my feelings, and he was probably reacting to that old pattern, rather than what was actually happening. And that's on him and I won't take responsibility for it, though I can understand it.
Ideas of where to go now? I guess I've been doing DB to the letter the past few days and feeling fine, but at some point a repair or reconnection will have to happen and I have no idea how to go about it without resorting to pursuing, and I won't do that, as it feeds his distancing behaviours and rewards his punishing behaviours.
Edited to add: what would normally happen is that I'd get really upset and demand a conversation about this, where we'd talk for ages and ages, and eventually he'd give some form of apology and I'd eventually extract some empathy from him. I really don't want to go back there again: it was bad for me, bad for him and bad for our marriage. I'm also unwilling to take responsibility for the way he feels right now. Part of me just wants to leave him alone and see how long he feels like keeping this up, though that also feels immature and like a 'he started it' type of action. He did act badly, I can understand why, and I told him it wasn't acceptable. I don't think either of us know how to move on from there. There won't be an apology - he's too proud and fragile to even countenance that - and while he might want to make it my fault, I don't care to accept that and his opinions aren't of interest to me right now.
I don't know that I'd consider any of this a major setback in your R. These things will happen, there will be times of stress (and this is probably one of the most stressful times for every human being on the planet right now) where one or both of you will revert back to past behavioral patterns. It happens. I think the key is how you move forward once it does. I think you're doing a great job of not letting his behavior drive your emotions-- that is a healthy thing-- and examining the entire episode to look at how you may have contributed to the situation. All very positive things, in my view, around what you can control. I guess if I had any general suggestion it would be to do a little more sitting in your H's shoes, what he's dealing with, how he must be feeling generally, and while he isn't handling those emotions well, he is still in a difficult spot and maybe he does still need empathy from you even when he can't really do a very good job of accepting it.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I also think he's feeling controlled by my request that he apologise to me. I think I reacted in that moment as I was thinking about that night - a couple of months ago now - where he turned up to bed drunk and started tearing into me out of the blue, taking out all his self-inflicted resentments and complaints on me. It was hurtful and I was so clear it was never to happen again. I was scared it was about to happen which is why i cut off a frankly strange line of questioning from him and went to sleep, and why I was so trenchant with him the next morning - I really need him to know I will no longer take this &#*$ from him. But he probably feels told off, and he used to tell me quite often 'when you're not nice to be around, I won't be around you' and then give me days and days of stonewalling and silent treatment like this. I am struggling today to pick apart the two - how much of this is his self preservation in a time of stress - and how much of this is punishing behaviour.
I can totally relate here. My H has often felt controlled by my request for an apology. I think to him it feels like bowing to your authority made even more stinging because he knows you're probably right, you're the calm one, the mature one, etc. At least in my situation when a similar dynamic is present, I know (from conversations after the fact) that H feels trapped and angry and the one thing he can control is himself, so by NOT apologizing and NOT engaging he's demonstrating his own autonomy. It may be less about punishing you and more about feeling in control on his end.
I'm not sure that makes much of a difference, but just wanted to say that the request (usually interpreted as a demand) for an apology and my H feeling like being controlled dynamic has been present in my M too, for a long time, and something we are both working on. Me, by not asking for an apology any more, just stating how I feel and not asking/telling him to do anything about it, H by actually apologizing on his own within a relatively short window of time. He generally still needs a little time to cool off and I'll give it to him, say my piece, walk away, not sulk or be angry, just do something else-- and he'll come find me and apologize. The other thing I try to do now is actually accept the apology and not be a B about it and rub in why I deserve the apology etc. That was something I used to do that was not beneficial to either of us, and I do my best to avoid it now. I know it added to his unwillingness to apologize because he felt he'd get a further scolding, which contributed then to his feeling like I was controlling, I was infantilizing him, etc. Again, not sure this helps. Just thinking that you may need to cut him some slack on this. He's not perfect, but he's improved immeasurably. He will slip, especially in times of stress, and maybe it is OK to move forward without an apology this time.
(Now I'm seeing your edited to add portion at the bottom and see that the dynamic was pretty present in your R too... the way you describe demanding the conversation and extracting an apology is exactly where we were too. Ugh. Agreed it is a bad thing. Maybe just as you were triggered by his drinking and weird behavior, he was triggered by your turning away and then asking for an apology.)
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
What's different is that I am not being driven crazy. I am not distressed or hurt or desperately trying to placate him or cajole him into being nice to me again. I will never go back to that. I'm not doing any of the pursuer type behaviours I used to do. I also don't feel the stress or anxiety or sense of worthlessness that I used to feel. I feel a bit of pity for him, and, if I am honest, a fair bit of the old contempt - that he's still in the habit of treating his wife like this when there's something going on either in his life or in his marriage that isn't to his liking.
I think it is a good thing that you've pulled yourself out of your old habits, and you genuinely feel OK about it now. That is great.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I am taking care of myself. The kids. Working and getting outside and doing my share in the house and seeing my friends. I am trying to take into account that he's working hard in a stressful role and has had little time to himself for weeks. I am also trying to take into account that we're different people, and while my way would be to talk things through, his way - to let things lie - isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think in the past if he'd have rejected my attempt to get close or comfort him I would have been upset or nagging or distressed and made it all about me and my feelings, and he was probably reacting to that old pattern, rather than what was actually happening. And that's on him and I won't take responsibility for it, though I can understand it.
Again, all positives on your end. I especially think it is good that you're open to seeing if his way can work too-- letting it lie. I see the parallels here in what I was talking about in my own thread too-- H seeing the old patterns, or even just being afraid that the old patterns might be there, and responding to that rather than opening his eyes to what is actually happening. I like what you said on my thread, that this is his journey to move through and there isn't much you can do other than keep being consistent on your side.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Ideas of where to go now? I guess I've been doing DB to the letter the past few days and feeling fine, but at some point a repair or reconnection will have to happen and I have no idea how to go about it without resorting to pursuing, and I won't do that, as it feeds his distancing behaviours and rewards his punishing behaviours.
Here's what I think, for you to take or leave. Can you try a sideways repair, like make a joke, do something silly or fun that you know he'll enjoy? Just do something nice for him and let him find it without needing him to say thank you or responding in some way? Also-- letting go of the need for him to apologize, for him to be the first one to repair, giving him a break this time with Covid and his work troubles and just doing something kind for him without any expectations of what he does in response. And maybe you have to do that more than once. But my guess is that he'd jump at the chance to repair without having to address the exact situation right now, apologize, whatever, and maybe down the line when you're both feeling more trust and willingness to engage, you can talk it through. I think maybe a sideways repair or humor could be a good way to put out feelers without pursuit/pressure.
The stonewalling and contempt, concerns with how to repair... wondering if you haven't read Gottman recently, it might be a good time just to give you some food for thought on how to deal with these feelings on your end and behaviors on his.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Trailing on what May suggested, my gestalt is that he needs saving from himself. I can see that it may feel like you are stepping back into territory you promised yourself you wouldn’t enter any more in your M (for your own self-preservation, rightly so). But sometimes we all need a get-out-of-jail-free pass. Your H’s work stresses led to him to self-medicating with alcohol, which led to him treating you in a disrespectful way, which undoubtedly he feels bad about, even if he can’t show it. You have mentioned that he doesn’t have many close friends or outlets, which we all really need right now, especially if we are at the forefront of the pandemic. You are bearing the brunt of all of his emotions, stresses and trauma right now, for better or for worse.
I might be out of line suggesting this, but what if you forgave him? Without conditions? Just a complete do-over? What if you gave him exactly what you would want in his situation? I am envisioning a big hug with a whispered ‘we will get through this, I am on your team’ and leave it at that? That may be my own projection speaking here, so do what is authentic to you and your situation. But human nature craves acceptance and forgiveness. Especially damaged, pent-up, emotionally challenged human natures. They just don’t know how to ask for it.
Before our current situation, my H and I would intentionally acquiesce to the more ‘needy’ or ‘damaged’ of the two of us in whatever crisis we were going through. Whomever was stronger or more capable in the moment was expected to be the bigger person and reach out to the other with love and acceptance (didn’t always happen, but 95% of the time it did). Typically it included naming feelings with words like ‘come here, poppet, I can see that you are really tired and cranky right now and don’t really mean what you are saying. I love you, just come here..’ Sometimes the aggrieved party would fight it (‘I’m NOT tired, I am super angry that you did XYZ’). But with enough gentle persistence, the ‘stronger’ of the two of us never failed to bring the ‘weaker’ party to the loving bargaining table. It’s hard to bear a grudge against someone who sees and accepts you for who you are in that moment.
Keep what fits and throw away the rest of my advice!
Well, last night he came to bed very late. I was still awake, and he said 'why are you being so horrible with me?' - but in a really confrontational, argumentative tone. I wasn't sure if he'd been drinking or not (I was GAL with some friends online in another room in the evening) so I just said I wanted to go to sleep. He dropped it. This morning he was cordial enough, though still carrying on with the lack of eye contact, speaking only when needed. Once Youngest was out of the way, he said 'so I want you to guarantee that you're not going to start shouting and screaming at me.' I've been perfectly calm throughout all of this - in fact, we haven't had an argument where I've raised my voice for weeks. So I took this as him picking a fight, and made an excuse and left the room. A few minutes later he came to find me and said, quite belligerently, 'I asked you a question, why are you ignoring me?' and I said, 'I'm not ignoring you, I just don't want to have a conversation like that.' He said, 'like what?' and I said 'where you make me explain or defend myself around something that just isn't happening. I don't want to, so I'm not going to.' I was very calm and quiet through all of this. He then went on a bit of a half hearted rant, mind-reading me: 'You expect me to apologise when I've done nothing wrong, etc etc,' and I said, 'I don't expect anything. I just want to get on with my work,' then came away from him again.
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Here's what I think, for you to take or leave. Can you try a sideways repair, like make a joke, do something silly or fun that you know he'll enjoy? Just do something nice for him and let him find it without needing him to say thank you or responding in some way? Also-- letting go of the need for him to apologize, for him to be the first one to repair, giving him a break this time with Covid and his work troubles and just doing something kind for him without any expectations of what he does in response. And maybe you have to do that more than once. But my guess is that he'd jump at the chance to repair without having to address the exact situation right now, apologize, whatever, and maybe down the line when you're both feeling more trust and willingness to engage, you can talk it through. I think maybe a sideways repair or humor could be a good way to put out feelers without pursuit/pressure.
This all sounds very sensible and kind, May. I've got to be honest with you, I think that probably would work and he'd probably be relieved if I did this for him. But I don't want to. I need to examine that a bit - perhaps immaturity on my part - but this is all happening in the context that he's not only my husband, but for a long time he was my abuser. I put a lot of self development work through therapy and reading and talking to people and making changes into responding to his abuse differently. I'm nowhere near perfect in my 180s or in enacting my healthy boundaries. And I still have a ton of resentment about the way he treated me in the past. Not the EA - but the blame and the months and months of bullying and verbal abuse when it was discovered. It feels vital to me not to get into a dynamic where I am responding to his moods and sulks and fight-picking and punishing behaviours with anything like pacifying or placating. I don't know what that would look like other than just going dark and not getting into conversations where he isn't treating me with respect, and at the moment that means little to no talking. I will think about it though.
What if you gave him exactly what you would want in his situation? I am envisioning a big hug with a whispered ‘we will get through this, I am on your team’ and leave it at that? That may be my own projection speaking here, so do what is authentic to you and your situation. But human nature craves acceptance and forgiveness. Especially damaged, pent-up, emotionally challenged human natures. They just don’t know how to ask for it.
Sage - thank you for this. I can see how it might work with a different person, in a different dynamic. A few months ago (on my last thread) he was in a similar state of stress and massively over-reacted to my asking if he had put any fuel in the car. There was no 'tone' on my part - I was asking because if he hadn't done it, I would go and do it. He took it as criticism and started ranting. I tried to hug him and say 'hey, it's fine, you've got the wrong end of the stick,' and he pushed me away and said 'you come at me and I'll come back at you twice as hard,' which at the time I took as some kind of threat - not necessarily of physical abuse, but of the verbal abuse he's resorted to very often in the past. I believe he experiences me trying to comfort him in those situations as invalidating, controlling and even smothering. I think the only thing that would make him happy if for me to be very abject and apologetic and sorrowful and accept a lot of the spew he wants to throw my way. That isn't on the menu. Now when he's argumentative or unpleasant or irrational, I leave him entirely alone - he's succeeded in driving me away and losing the opportunity for comfort from his wife. You'll also see this latest bout of nonsense started when I tried to hug him and ask him what I could do for him, and the next morning before I told him he was behaving unacceptably, I also asked him if there was anything I could do to help.
I know if it was someone else writing this I'd say that they weren't telling the full story - that they must have been contributing to that dynamic. And I know in the past that I did. I pursued my socks off in really dysfunctional ways that came across to him as extremely critical and aggressive. My emotions got the better of me and I'd get nearly hysterical trying to extract some empathy from him, explaining myself or the situation, pointing out that he had a part to play, trying to educate him about his own feelings and thoughts. I cringe when I think of how I used to behave. It was all very toxic and manipulative on my part - though I also have a lot of self-compassion - I knew no other way of responding to his abuse. I know better now and those kind of behaviours aren't happening anymore, but he sometimes acts as if it they are, and when he does act like that, I can't come anywhere near him without triggering his defence mechanisms, which are generally either stonewalling and withdrawal (if I am lucky) or sarcasm, name-calling, belittling and shaming language and verbal abuse. My boundary is rock-solid around all that nonsense. I can understand the place he is in, but I really don't think it is healthy for it to be my emotional labour that gets him out of it. I changed without help or support from him - for the benefit of myself, primarily, and all my relationships. He gets to decide if he does the same, or not.
I'm actually feeling very unsettled now. This morning he's approached me twice (I am working in the home office so not in his way or getting in his business - he has a day off shift today) and said he'd bought some presents for Youngest's birthday. He told me what he'd bought and I said, 'I think she'll like those things' then he rolled his eyes and said, 'only you know, I have to be very careful that you won't go mental if you don't approve,' - I made a listening noise and went back to my work. A bit later he asked me which friend I was seeing tonight. I'd told him this this morning - when we were planning the day and who would care for Youngest in the evening - and I said, 'oh, it's Avril' and he said, 'yes, you said that this morning but you had to think about it a long time so it sounds like you're making it up.' I think he's desperate for me to defend myself so he can have the argument he's looking for, so I just made another listening noise and turned back to my work. He's on his computer now very ostentatiously looking for two bedroomed flats to rent.
I literally have NO IDEA what is going on with him, but am determined to be calm and not engage and take care of myself. I do feel very anxious about what he's going to do to escalate now it's clear he's not getting the response he either dreads or expects or wants.
It sounds as though he's really spinning and in a bad spot.
I know it is especially difficult for you since there is the history of abuse, and the last thing you want to do is placate him or get yourself wrapped back into that dynamic.
However, it also sounds to me like he's really having an incredibly difficult time and has no idea how to handle it. Is there something at all you can do to help him, even while not engaging in his craziness? Something that you can be OK with, thinking about it less in terms of allowing him to treat you in a certain way or reinforcing his behaviors with your own seeming acceptance, and more about just reaching out a hand to help him when he's so clearly in crisis?
One thought I had-- what if you wrote him a note and slipped it to him? Said you know he's really upset and you'd like to talk with him about it but you're worried he'll get angry or yell and you simply can't do that with him any more. You might say you never meant to make him feel badly and are sorry that he's having such a rough time, and to please let you know if there is anything at all you can do to help him. Anything along those lines that is true from your standpoint but also lets him know you care about him and want to know how he's doing. Then you can walk away and let him read it without responding in the moment. Maybe that is a way to defuse the situation without giving him the opening to let out his frustrations on you?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Alison, thank you for the gentle response to my suggestions. I admire how strong, brave and beautiful you are in not accepting abuse any longer. I apologize if my post was inappropriately informed.
You are in such a challenging position. Is there any way that you might be able to approach this current situation together with a MC? Therapy is available via video or calls right now where we are at, and most have more availability than usual so you might be able to find someone quickly. I have found that mentioning that you and H are in a 'crisis' tends to get a quicker response from a therapist. Maybe having a third party 'mediate' the conversation would help your H get over his crisis without causing more harm? This is all predicated on H's willingness to join in a conversation with a MC, so it may not be an option for you right now.
I also like May's suggestion of a note. Or an email or text. If you feel you can do so without breaking your own boundaries surrounding the abusive behavior.
And for a 2x4: do you really want to be married to H? Is this really working for you? If so, where can you be flexible to accommodate his crisis? And if not, what is the next step for you?
I think I am too unsettled and anxious to do anything for or with H right now and I need to take care of myself first. I notice how resistant I am to reaching out to him in anyway after my first couple of attempts were rebuffed. And the suggestions I am getting for you both are really great - they are - and I don't mean to be a dingle about it. I guess I am afraid. And I want to notice that fear and sit with it a bit. There are parts of me that are still very afraid of my husband and that is as a direct consequence of his abusive behaviour towards me. The right thing to do here is to keep myself emotionally safe, make sure the kids see no arguments or unhealthy discussions between us and let him deal with his demons on his own for the time being. That might change sometime soon, but my priority today is me.
I had GAL last night - didn't talk about H, just a socially distanced walk with a friend who I haven't seen in three months because of the lockdown. I can't say I wasn't worried about what I'd come home to - given that he'd said he didn't believe me when I said who I would be with - but I didn't explain myself and just watched some TV on my own and went to bed after I got back. This morning I got up early to take the dog out. When I got back I went back to bed for a few minutes. He was awake and I guess I was hoping just lying near him would give us a chance to reconnect. He huffed and rolled his eyes and said 'what's wrong with you?' and I said 'what do you mean?' (this was a mistake and gave him a way in) and he said 'why aren't you getting up and getting Youngest's breakfast?' He's off shift today and I'm working and we didn't have any particular arrangement about who would do what - usually I do it if he's working and he does it if he's not. I just got up and left him to it. He tried another few times with some fight-picking statements but I ignored him and now I'm tucked away in the home office. He told me to clean it this morning (it's a stand-alone building he never goes in and it is untidy, but it has no impact on him or anyone else - it's my space) and I asked him why (another mistake) and he huffed and stropped away.
Sage - you ask a good question. I was so ambivalent about H coming back - I've never in my hear really 100% committed to this marriage, because of my fear - and one of my fears was that H would keep up his changes as long as things were easy for him, but at the first sign of stress he'd go back to old habits. He's in an extraordinary position of stress right now, and he's also had this job disappointment that he's found humiliating. My first response was to try to comfort and show him some compassion, and his first response was to start trying to bait me into the old dynamic. I can resist that, and I will - but I don't think he has any self awareness on this issue at all right now and has no idea the damage he is doing to our marriage - shaky as it was. So no, I don't know if I want to be married to him. If he can come to me and take some responsibility and tell me what is going on without attacking me then I'd have hope - people are allowed to be stressed and anxious and act like Dingles now and again. But this - this I cannot tolerate.
In terms of next steps? Putting as much distance between me and him as possible to keep myself safe. We're still in lockdown and if I asked him to leave it would inflame him and I am frightened of that.
