Affair Fog-LRT 4

[kto626]

Still making progress. I spoke to my W about how she was in contact with him by relying to his text and telling him that she is where she wants to be, at home. I said that she shouldn't even respond to him if he reaches out. She agreed. She has given me her phone password so I can go into when I want. I looked quickly the other day and saw nothing. She continues to say she was so wrong and she was stupid to do what she did.

Yesterday she asked me if I was in contact with any of my ex's and I explained that after BD, I joined Facebook for the first time. When I did that, a lot of old friends, including ex's reached out and started messaging me. These convo's were completely innocent and were months ago. However, my W got very upset and was saying I was inappropriate. I really wasn't and offered for her to look at the messages to calm her nerves about it. She refused. I understand that she's jealous, which she as admitted, and part of me likes that. But trying to make me the bad guy because I had innocent convo's with old friends and yes, an ex, while we were separated and she was seeing the OM is absolutely irritating. I tried explaining that to her and she wanted none of it. It was our first fight since we began to R.

She's incredibly jealous and insecure. I understand that it looks bad but she had left me for the OM. Then I have innocent, hey how are you, type of convos with them and I'm the bad guy? I would NEVER do that now. At the time, was I really wrong?

Other than that things are good. We are having lunch with her parents today. I'm at the point I'm going to say she can move home but I'm waiting for our MC appointment on Wednesday to discuss with her.

[LH19]

Are you familiar with the term gaslighting?

[kto626]

Yup, This is textbook. So what do I do? How do I respond?

Btw, she just apologized for it but said it bothers her.

[LH19]

My main concern would be that she truly doesn’t understand the significance of what she did and if she doesn’t address her insecurities this will surely happen again. It’s going to take a lot of work on her part for this to work out long term.

[sandi2]

Yesterday she asked me if I was in contact with any of my ex's and I explained that after BD, I joined Facebook for the first time. When I did that, a lot of old friends, including ex's reached out and started messaging me. These convo's were completely innocent and were months ago. However, my W got very upset and was saying I was inappropriate.

I believe I gave a warning about her trying to turn the tables.

I really wasn't and offered for her to look at the messages to calm her nerves about it.

Why?.......Why?.......Why? I warned you not to let her put you on the same level as the WW. She is the one who is suppose to be transparent. And you offer to let her see your phone? Did you give her any passwords? If so, you've put yourself in a bad situation, and you better hope she doesn't discover your activity on the dating site, or read your posts on the DB board. I warned you she'd try this cr@p and you are not listening.......or else, you don't believe I know what I'm talking about. Your work is not the same tasks as her work, so stop acting as if you are a cheater, and stop getting in the boat with her. She is still very wayward. If I knew nothing more than how she questioned you about old GF's on FB, and saw her reaction of calling you "inappropriate", it's enough for me to know there hasn't been much change in her mindset. She wants to pull you over into the same boat, by making you out to be as "bad" as she. She does it to lower the heat that's on her. Pretty soon she'll start pointing her finger at you and saying you cheated, too. Do you get what I'm saying?

Please Note: A fairly good way to gauge her inner progress, is to observe her anger. Since WW's blame their H for unhappiness & pretty much anything else, she will be very challenged at hiding the anger that's simmering right under her skin (if she's faking a work in progress). Here's another thing to observe. If your WW is faking, then she's going to highly resent being transparent for more than a few days, and for having to prove herself. You see, WW's have a lot of stubborn pride, and you'll be able to detect her resentment in her attitude, and things she says under her breath (or maybe not under her breath). Frankly, I think that's one reason she was trying to find out what you'd been up to on FB, so she could accuse you. Goes to show how important deep remorse is. Also, humility takes care of the stubborn pride, resentment, etc. If you aren't seeing much humility, and she's getting all uppity about your FB activity........I suggest you hold out on the move home.

Last, but not least, the number of times she apologizes doesn't carry the real weight .......if there is no remorse. I mean, it's possible to recognize the wrong and apologize for it. It may not be a gut-wrenching apology. Some WW's are great actresses, so IDK if you are able to determine if she's remorseful. I always tell LBH's not to be impressed by a few tears, b/c most women can squeeze out a tear. Maybe she doesn't really feel much remorse, and she's simply trying to do the right thing and get on with her life. As long as she remains NC with OM, and she is showing respectful behavior and speech toward you as her H......that's a promising start, in my book. Feelings are made to respond. If she is genuinely doing the work (and not faking it), then feelings will eventually match her actions........and so will her attitude........and so will her speech.

I'm at the point I'm going to say she can move home but I'm waiting for our MC appointment on Wednesday to discuss with her.

IMHO, she is not ready to move back. She just wants her house back. You want her back. Neither of you are ready. You think so much progress has been made, and I'm telling you it hasn't. Your MC advised to take it slowly and give it more time. I'm concerned you will waste all those hard days you spent alone, by letting her come back too soon and too easily. If you let her come back too soon and too easily, neither of you will put in the hard work that's needed for a successful piecing. It's as if your eyes refuse to see anything beyond just getting her physically back into the house. IDK, maybe you don't care, just as long as she's in NC with OM......you're okay with it. Let's see, how many hours has it been since last contact?

Bottom line.......if you don't wait to hear what the board says, or talk with your MC, please don't think you have to stop posting. Just b/c I want to shake the liver out of you, doesn't mean I want you to quit posting. Even if I think you've done a no-no, .......I appreciate you being honest about it. We can't help you if we don't have the truth.

((hugs))

[Traveler]

Hi KTO, consider carefully your reasons for rushing a return home when she’s only been NC for 2-3 days. I mean, my GF and I aren’t back to our normal living routine and it’s been 4+ weeks—and we have no affairs and are still rushing. Not as much as our prior extremely rushed failed attempt, of course. Lesson learned. A 1-3 month period for her to prove changes are consistent and work on whatever led her to stray may be less satisfying in the short term, but more likely to take you where you want to wind up. A BD2 would be easier with her out than in. Wishing you the best, whatever your choice.

[kto626]

Sandi, I would agree with a lot that you said. However, my W is sincerely remorseful. She did get mad with the FB thing but was able to apologize for being angry about it. She's apologizing numerous times a day, asking how I'm feeling, trying to support me in my process of healing.

She told me more of the A today. Some if it is a little embarrassing but I'm going to throw it out there to continue being open and honest. She said it started off as physical. Basically, he was good and "adventurous" in bed. I asked why she never asked that of me. She said she resented me at that point and that's when she became more attached to him. She wants to be here with me and wants to bring that "adventure" into our lives. That's definitely a gut shot to me to take but her willingness to communicate that speaks a lot to me. I asked her if any part of her misses him or wants to be with him. She adamantly said no.

She told me she's afraid that I will be angry with her forever. I told her it will take time but her willingness to be transparent and communicate will help that process for me and her. She agreed.

Sandi, after reading over your comment about remorse, it gives me more confidence because I do believe she is truly remorseful. Her ability to take full accountability while remaining calm is something I haven't seen in my W for a very long time. I think she is an insecure person and that needs to be worked on for us to have a chance. But I also think she means what she is saying because she is able to truly look at me and say done difficult things for her to say. Talking about sex with the OM is hard for both of us but her ability to be honest and remorseful while saying it must be a good thing.

I know my W. She is truly sorry. I also know I want her home. But for now, she isn't. But I'm going to ask her back during our MC session on Wednesday. I realize it's early, but it's what I want. I've asked her a few times to see her phone and she gave it to me without question. I looked and he's deleted from all social media. I also saw a text between her and her friend where she said she wants me and our family and she wants so blind before to that fact.

There are so many good things happening and although happening fast, she is my W. As long as she continues working on herself and us I can't or won't keep her away.

I'll keep updating. I sincerely appreciate everyone on this board.

[MrBrside]

Hi KTO,

IMO you are still seeing things through rose tinted glasses.

Pretty much from day 1, your focus has been to get the WW back. Things are falling into place - BUT she is still wayward..

She told me more of the A today. Some if it is a little embarrassing but I'm going to throw it out there to continue being open and honest. She said it started off as physical. Basically, he was good and "adventurous" in bed. I asked why she never asked that of me. She said she resented me at that point and that's when she became more attached to him.

This started from a lack of respect.. What have you done to change that ? From your posts you still come across as a needy and nice guy.. WW is still calling the shots ( stroppy over FB ???? WTF ) and you are appeasing. This does nothing to gain respect - you are trying to keep the peace / keep her happy.

She's apologizing numerous times a day, asking how I'm feeling, trying to support me in my process of healing.

I'm going to go back to my sitch - after i found out about EA1 i was done. WW tried really hard for the fist week or so - appologising etc - After a week the blame started to come into it a bit more, but generally i thought we were happy - we had moved on ( hell she even said she fancied trying to another baby - sound familiar ??? ) and for 8 weeks i thought things were good - 1 argument in 8 weeks.... Looking back, NOTHING had changed.. I was still the ME she didnt respect and she was still WW.. The only difference was both of us were trying extra hard to be nice / not argue etc ( i'll liken it to that initial dating period where you tolerate more as the butterflys are worth it )... At the time i would have said we were really happy - I had done no work on myself after EA1 ( hadnt found this site yet ) and she hadnt either... A week after asking to try for another baby and 8 weeks after EA1 ended, EA2 and EA3 (then PA) popped onto the scene...

My point being, talk is cheap and your WW has done no work - and you are far from where you need to be..

OM2, OM3 etc will pop up unless she gets out of this WW mindset - maybe in 8 weeks, maybe 3 years.

I know my W. She is truly sorry. I also know I want her home.

1) You are still letting emotion rule
2) Read sandis breakdown of WWs - You are not dealing with your wife. I know you want to think you are, but she is still WW...Hence unless you really earn her respect, its probably not a case of if but when.. its probably worth noting, that she will act on emotion. So regardless of her knowing its wrong etc, she just wont be able to help herself.

KTO, i really hope this does work out for you.. But keep focusing and you - and PLEASE listen to Sandi - Her insight is priceless

[sandi2]

I know my W. She is truly sorry. I also know I want her home. But for now, she isn't. But I'm going to ask her back during our MC session on Wednesday. I realize it's early, but it's what I want. I've asked her a few times to see her phone and she gave it to me without question. I looked and he's deleted from all social media. I also saw a text between her and her friend where she said she wants me and our family and she wants so blind before to that fact.

Okay, that's your decision. I'll be here to help you through the process, by sharing my viewpoint from the other side of the street....if you want it.

This is JMHO, that the two of you not have discussions about her sexual activity with OM. You may want to hear other things about the affair, that's up to you. I just don't think it's healthy to know the details of their intimacy.

She told me she's afraid that I will be angry with her forever.

That's typical. I want to remind you that she may try to twist things around and make you think you need to prove you can trust her or that you're not mad. No, she's the one who has to bear the burden of proof. You have every right to be angry. I would be greatly concerned if you didn't have some anger. I'm not saying you should hold it over her head, but you need time to process your feelings about what she has done. In fact, you will probably go through a period where you feel more resentment after she returns home. LBH's who are so focused on just getting the WW back again, often experience a delayed anger after she's back. Hopefully, MC can help guide you.

I told her it will take time but her willingness to be transparent and communicate will help that process for me and her. She agreed.

Currently, she's expecting you to look at her phone. Does she know transparency won't stop after she goes back home? It's not quite the same when you ask to see her phone, or if she has a minute to delete whatever she doesn't want you to see. Make sense? Once she's back home, the real test begins, and after a couple of weeks pass, you should take a look when she's not aware. Transparency is simply a method of accountability. But let's keep it real.......all cheaters lie. So, her word, alone, cannot be trusted.....no matter how far in the sand you may stick your head. You've got to be smart and get verification. If she is committed to working on the MR, then this method of accountability should help her while she goes through withdrawals.

BTW, even if she's currently claiming she doesn't want to be with OM........she will still experience withdrawal affects, b/c of the addictive nature of an affair. That's another reason she needs to remain transparent, b/c the end of one affair may be the beginning of the next affair. It's not the man......it's the thrill. Do you understand what I mean? She's very vulnerable, but she can get through it.

Should I be concerned that you might stop looking at her phone when she comes back home?

There are so may good things happening and although happening fast, she is my W. As long as she continues working on herself and us I can't or won't keep her away.

What kind of good things are happening? Look, if she is being real, then I'm happy for you. She's trying harder right now, than she'll try once she's back home. She knows if she blows it now, she won't get to go back home. I am always suspicious when a WW suddenly makes a 180 degree turn, and that's why I am here trying to warn you what to watch. I don't want to see you get hurt more.

((hugs))

[Traveler]

She told me more of the A today. Basically, he was good and "adventurous" in bed. She wants to be here with me and wants to bring that "adventure" into our lives.

Eww. I offered and my GF requested zero details about who I dated while we were separated.

That's definitely a gut shot to me to take but her willingness to communicate that speaks a lot to me.

As MrBrside points out, this wasn't why she cheated--she discovered this *after* crossing the line. Beware of a dynamic where WW points out real or perceived ways OM is better (as most humans will be in some ways) and you try to compete with him in those area--maybe sex, barbecue, and home maintenance.

She told me she's afraid that I will be angry with her forever. I told her it will take time but her willingness to be transparent and communicate will help that process for me and her. I think she is an insecure person and that needs to be worked on for us to have a chance. I also know I want her home.

Well, if you were not giving her "Home" immediately you could break this into phases of 1-2 weeks (no contact) to encourage her with carrots: Phase 1: Dating, Phase 2: Sex, Phase 3: Overnights, Phase 4: Home. Let's go with your plane of Home now. What if she contacts OM1 again in an "innocent" way, stops or delays IC, or stops allowing you to access her all her devices, etc. What sticks could you apply? What if you tell her to move out and she refuses this time? It may be worth thinking through those boundaries and articulating them before move-in. Again, this seems rushed, but I'm just thinking through how you might make your plan as successful as possible assuming you actually have a good read on where she is.