Seperated but holding on for reconciliation

[JoeDredd]

It's fine if you don't want to agree with me. I'm concerned, and I think you choose to define waywardness as being only those who are having an affair. Google the word, wayward, and read the definition.

Hi Sandi, it's not that I don't agree with you. I am just trying to get my head around it. But you are right, I needed to look up the definition of 'wayward' to understand what you were saying. As you said, I mistook WW as meaning 'wants (or has) another man', and that thought was difficult and scary.

You aren't the first H who doesn't want to accept that his W has a wayward heart/mindset, and you won't be the last.

I don't doubt it. In fact, every time I've read something here and thought "But...", my very next thought has been "I bet every H says the same thing to themselves at this point." There is nothing new under the sun.

You did not read the parts of DR that you thought didn't apply to you. You threw out the rules you didn't think applied.

You are right about the DR book. I did bypass some chapters. But what rules did I throw out? (Not to argue the point, just so I understand what I might have missed.)

And, you are still skipping around and throwing out the parts you don't like.

What am I skipping around?

I hope you will recognize when you are being disrespected by your W. It really concerned me when you asked how to know if she was being disrespectful.

Oh, I know when she is being disrespectful. My problem was not identifying it, but understanding that it is okay to address it. I thought I had to put up with it for various reasons, e.g. rule 26 - Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).

Like many newcomers, you are confused by some of the DB terms. It's okay, you'll learn.

Thanks Sandi. Yes, you are right.

I hope she gets treatment for her hormones, and for whatever else troubles her.

Me too. Before moving out, W said that seeing a counsellor was part of her plan, but that hasn't happened either.

I think by hormones she just meant her normal cycle. I don't think she is investigating anything or getting any treatment in that regard.

You do a good job taking care of your children by yourself. Be sure to take care of yourself, too.

((hugs))

Thanks Sandi. I appreciate your honest & direct approach, and all your help.

[sandi2]

You are right about the DR book. I did bypass some chapters. But what rules did I throw out? (Not to argue the point, just so I understand what I might have missed.)

I thought you said something about it. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Originally Posted by sandi2
And, you are still skipping around and throwing out the parts you don't like.

What am I skipping around?

It was my understanding that you only read the parts (book chapters, threads, link, etc.) you thought applied to your situation. Now that you see what I mean by "wayward" wife, you may need to read some of those topics you previously shut out.

Oh, I know when she is being disrespectful. My problem was not identifying it, but understanding that it is okay to address it. I thought I had to put up with it for various reasons, e.g. rule 26 - Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).

Oh wow, I never thought about someone linking rule 26 to not standing up to disrespect. I've thought several times about revising that list, but then I'd have second thoughts. Anyway, to answer your question, rule 26 is directed for those times the LBS is getting baited into a R talk, argument, or is tempted to try and "reason" with the other spouse. Most LBS's want to solve things by talking about it, but after the bomb drop......talk is not going to be heard.

I'm glad you pointed that out to me.

[JoeDredd]

I mean it is a good sign, that she's still open to intimate moments with you. Just don't attach a bunch of expectations to it and pressure her for a relationship. She'll let you know if/ when she's ready for that.

Definitely! I take encouragement from these moments, as they do show the door is still open on her side too, to some degree. These moments have always happened after I've prayed for a respite, which shows me God is working on things too. I think of each one as an oasis on this long, hard journey. It really is like having a rest, when my W's attitude becomes so much sunnier and more favourable towards me. One of the afternoons we had a lovely long cuddle and W fell asleep in my arms for ages (until D13 rang on every phone wondering why I was taking so long at the other house!) I read of someone else's journey here on the forums, where the WW said the OM had ED issues or some such, and had the attitude "Come and give me what you're good at." It's definitely more than just "I need you in bed, now get lost", but I'm certainly not running around arranging marriage renewal vows or anything!

The last thing you want to do is pressure or pursue her though.

I think I've been doing okay lately. When we had the good patch a couple of weeks ago, I did say that I'd love to take her out to dinner. W replied with a smile, "You would ask me when all the restaurants are shut, wouldn't you?" or something jokey like that. We both chuckled a bit and that was that.

D13 has her birthday soon so I've had to be in touch to discuss that. I think W was nonplussed that D13 wants to have her birthday here at home, and not the other house where W is. I'm not sure she understands how much S15 and D13 are hurting over this situation (and how much they dislike the other place). They both tell me how they feel, but when I ask "Have you told your Mum this?", they always say "No." I don't want them to miss out on seeing W, or W to miss out on seeing them but I feel like I'm taking the other side when I have to get them to go over and they say "Do we have to go?" and "I don't want to be there" etc. A couple of times I've told D13 she has to go so she can see W, and D13 says "But I saw her on Facetime!"

Just keep up with your DB'ing. Do you know the feeding-the-squirrel analogy?

No, please fill me in!

it seems to me to be the real her coming out when when she is warm and loving like this. But W says the real her is the cold one that wants nothing to do with me.

They are both the real her. Just accept that and understand that you don't only get one or the other!

That's actually a very encouraging thought. Thank you.

She didn't greet me when we arrived. I leant forward to give her a kiss and she said "Let's not go there."

Let HER do the pursuing. You play it cool. ALWAYS.

It's always hard to tell when these oasis breaks end. W never says "By the way, it's all flipped back again." During these times she's always receptive to kisses, so I greet her that way each day to test what her mood is (just leaning in; I'm not lunging at her or seizing her in a passionate embrace or anything). She either meets me the rest of the way, or lets me know she's no longer receptive. As soon as I know that line is back, I don't cross it.

[sandi2]

D13 has her birthday soon so I've had to be in touch to discuss that. I think W was nonplussed that D13 wants to have her birthday here at home, and not the other house where W is. I'm not sure she understands how much S15 and D13 are hurting over this situation (and how much they dislike the other place).

It's very possible. Her mindset is so twisted, she doesn't understand why the kids wouldn't want whatever makes her happy.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Just keep up with your DB'ing. Do you know the feeding-the-squirrel analogy?

No, please fill me in!

I'm pretty sure it is in one of those sections you skipped over in Divorce Remedy.

It's always hard to tell when these oasis breaks end. W never says "By the way, it's all flipped back again." During these times she's always receptive to kisses, so I greet her that way each day to test what her mood is (just leaning in; I'm not lunging at her or seizing her in a passionate embrace or anything). She either meets me the rest of the way, or lets me know she's no longer receptive. As soon as I know that line is back, I don't cross it.

Must be tough molding yourself to fit the mood of your spouse.

[JoeDredd]

Must be tough molding yourself to fit the mood of your spouse.

Since October, she's been stand-offish 99% of the time. It's only when these short interludes come along that I have the hope that today will be as good as yesterday was, that the season will persist, and by some miracle become the predominant mood. I guess I could ask "Are we still good today?" but that seems clinical and unromantic. Checking if she is open to a kiss seems a better way to test the waters.

W also tells me things during these times. Not great slabs of information, but letting me know what I did wrong in the past. I don't know if these are just regrets or signs she is processing stuff and may be able to forgive me and get past it to a better us. I try to validate and I take note of everything so I can do better in future.

I also use the opportunity to show I'm keeping the door open; not talking a lot but I keep trying to be that lighthouse.

It often feels hopeless but I am sure I need to wait, perservere and prepare the field. The love of God can do incredible things.

[sandi2]

How are things going, Joe?

[JoeDredd]

It's been another two weeks and the kids are still with me. Normally the system has been a weekly swap-over with W. W hasn't said anything to me about taking the kids, other than one time when she said she'd like to have them, if only for the weekend. The kids weren't keen to go, for several reasons. (It was their two week break between school terms and there's not much for them to do at the other house, plus S15 has (very mild) concerns about covid 19. He won't let us hug him at the moment, especially not W who still goes into her workplace in the city once a week, and travels there by train.) W is working from home most days and says she is extremely busy. I'm sure she misses the kids but I think she may also see avoiding their interruptions as a positive, given her workload. After the kids turned her down she said "If the kids aren't keen on coming over I won't push them. It's a very stressful time."

Work has also been extremely hectic for me, but it's been great fun having the kids here constantly. It's almost an adventure! W's absense is noticeable. I've been struck several times how the house actually seems smaller without her.

D13 has spoken very negatively of W over the last fortnight, even saying "I hate Mum" at various times, though sounding more frustrated than angry. Sometimes the causes seem quite superficial ("Mum hasn't read my text messages yet!"). Far from hating W, I'm sure D13 wants her around and is actually feeling neglected. I've had a particularly good time with D13, though with a few dips. A couple of times she has got upset with me over nothing particular, then she is straight on the phone to W to tell her how bad or stupid I am. (D13 was born cross. She was a fussy baby and gets mad quickly.) I take the "I hate Mum" comments with a grain of salt knowing how quickly they can flip around or fizzle out.

W's father texted W, encouraging her to work on our relationship. W was not happy with what he said. W has a strained relationship with her dad. W is still talking to her mother regularly.

W has dropped over a couple of times during the last fortnight. She's now parking on my side of the driveway and avoiding putting her handbag in the usual spot where she always kept it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it seems to be an intentional way of saying, "I don't live here, so there is no 'my' spot to park in, no 'my' spot to put my handbag."

W invited us for dinner a couple of Sundays ago. W set my place next to hers again, which feels much nicer than in the past when she'd seat one of the kids between us as a barrier. After dinner, the kids disappeared to their own entertainments. W wouldn't let me wash up but told me about work and things. She actually looked at me a few times while speaking to me! Afterwards she played two songs for me that she's been practising on her keyboard, and she sang too. (W is very musical. D13 has W's talents. Sadly S15 inherited my musical abilities.) We watched a movie together (with S15 sitting next to W). I made a cup of tea and asked W if she wanted one. She said yes so I made hers too.

A few days later it was D13's birthday. (Now she really is D13.) W came over in the morning to see presents being opened, went to 'work', then came back at 4pm with her keyboard and the birthday cake she'd made. D13's main present was a ukulele. W and D13 played their instruments. D13 got me to film it with my phone. No objections from W, which was also positive as she no longer allows me to take photos etc of her.

We ordered pizzas for dinner, per D13's wishes. W had parked on my side of the driveway again but wouldn't give me her keys, so I had no way to take her car or move it out of the way of my side of the garage. "You're not driving my car," said W. W drove me to get the pizza instead. I ran in and got it. After dinner we got the cake ready. W calls up lots of her family on shared facetime to sing Happy Birthday to D13. W's phone looks like the titles to the Brady Bunch. I am visible behind W and D13 but no one says hello to me. (though BIL sends a text later "Great to see you there.") D13 tells me later she didn't want all these people at her birthday, and that she felt embarassed and W had 'taken over'.

A few days later I get a text from W: "Do you know why D13 is sending me messages saying she'll never talk to me again?" Me: "No..."

It must've got resolved because that night we all play a sort-of on line pictionary game called scribbl.io. The kids and me at home on our devices, with W joining us on line from the other house. The mood was good (and silly). We all had fun. W was complimentary of my drawings, laughed at my jokes, and wrote my name in a comment. It felt positive.

On Monday this week W dropped in during the morning to take D13 on a quick clothes shopping mission. W is wearing a ring on her wedding finger (but it's not her wedding band or any ring from me). W had told me she is so used to wearing a ring there her finger feels bare without it. W & D13 weren't gone for very long. After W dropped off D13 and left, D13 started with the "I hate Mum" again.

I haven't seen or spoken to W for the last three days. A couple of days ago I realised I was feeling indifferent about what W ultimately decides to do, but it didn't last long. Since then I have wanted to call her, text her, drive around and see her, check she is okay, check she is not working herself to death, check she is eating okay, check if she needs help. I haven't done any of those things but the impulse is there.

Otherwise on the 'me' front, I need to get to bed earlier (it is 12.24am here now.) I keep aiming to go to bed by 11pm at the latest, but keep ending up being awake until 1am - 2am. Partly because it is such a hectic time at work, and with home being the workplace at the moment, it is too easy to try and get one more thing done. Moreso however because D13 is having trouble sleeping (has just been out of bed again to see me), partly because of her anxieties but also (I think) because she is not getting out enough to use up her energy, due to the lockdown on schools. The downside for me is that if I don't get up early, I can't fit in my exercise routine. Our Year End work has been so busy, I feel like I've been glued to the desk. I really need to get into a better sleep routine and re-establish my exercise habits. Now it's almost 1am. Stopping now, work in the morning.

[KitCat]

I don't have much to add but I like your update. I like the positive interactions and the fact that you are going with the flow and just focusing on you.

I get that you get antsy during those 3 days but good for you not going on those impulses!!!!!

I need to follow your strong self control.

[JoeDredd]

Thanks KitCat. I hope you are going okay.

I don't think my self control is that great. I've just seen my W this morning. She's looking amazing and my heart went right out to her. I just wanted to burst out with the I love yous and sweep her up in my arms and all that sort of stuff. I didn't, but I really, really wanted to. I wandered up to the door after she'd got in her car, had a look at her getting in, before making myself step back.

[JoeDredd]

My W used to tell me I was being controlling at certain times. I always disagreed. I've never been able to recognise or detect this behaviour in myself, and I still don't see it. I've always given my view on things, and expressed a preference, but I've never said "You can't do x" or "You must do y".

Given this is the time to work on myself, perhaps this is one of the things I need to work on, but I don't know how to address it or even identify if it is something that needs addressing.

I did a quick google and found several lists - 'Signs you are controlling', that sort of thing. I know you shouldn't use the internet as a 'doctor' but I thought it might provide some indications. Going through the lists I couldn't see anything that really chimed. I never dictated what my wife could/should wear, I've never insisted I made all the key decisions, I haven't been a 'my way is the only way' person, etc.

Any suggestions? I guess this is the sort of thing I'd go to an IC for, but it seems a bit odd to start with 'Do I have this behaviour?' rather than 'I have this behaviour, help me address it.'