Caught between a rock and a hard place

[sandi2]

It's possible she saw OM last week. I stupidly tried to bring up the subject of her plans that night, and I think she saw right through it. Very defensive. Had a story about hanging out with a friend. Could be true, could be not. The friend is a clear enabler who barely knows me, so who knows.

She knows you well and can see through that kind of stuff. She may have been defensive b/c she could tell you were fishing, and she resented it. However, you're probably right about her seeing OM.

The next morning she texted me, suggesting we get together to talk that night. Shortly after that, she called and tried to start an argument about something kinda related to the night before. I told her I'm not arguing and she will speak to me with respect or not speak to me. She cooled her jets and we talked it through.

Good for you! Frankly, I don't see the point in meeting for a talk, until she has stopped all contact with OM and is ready to do whatever is necessary to save the MR. Do you? Whenever a WW calls/texts saying to meet up for a talk.......it's never good.

She talked about "if" we decide to fix things on some future date and expressed doubts about whether she really wants a divorce and if we could ever get over some of the hurt in our relationship. I let her know I have realized a lot of my own needs and I would expect full commitment to the marriage before I'd be willing to work on things. That right now I'm focused on continuing to build a good life for myself and my son. I told her I would not choose to split apart our family for no reason, but that I had finally realized there are things that could lead me to make that choice.

Good job!

I still don't believe her. I am just trying really hard not to let my mind go so far down that road. I'm torn between not caring and trying to find hard evidence. Is it helpful to find evidence?

I think you'd be lying to yourself to say you don't care. Some say yes to getting Intell about an affair, others don't agree. If you need to know, then do it. It's not for the faint of heart, so that choice is up to you.

Anyways after the discussion had died down and I was about to leave, she just jumps on me and starts making out with me. I let it happen. Not sure if that was the right move. I liked it, but I didn't push. She brought up the idea of sex and said she was uncertain. I said simply that I wouldn't beg for anything and left it at that. We spent some time close that night and she recounted good memories from our past. I left after that.

You spent some time close? What does that mean? Did you have sex or not?

I'm not believing anything she says and only half what she does. The confusing things lately couple with her saying she now has doubts about D (previously stated it was the only option) are hard to follow. I'm sticking with DB'ing. Sometimes I want to reach out, so I call a friend instead. It doesn't feel good to think she's toying with me, but I hold that as the most likely scenario.

Yeah, I think she is probably toying with you. Here's the thing.......the more you spend time close, and play happy family, the more you will feel confused. She's trying to appease you, without giving you what you really want......which is honesty and commitment to work on the MR.

[youngson]

Thanks again, sandi2.

I am currently torn about what I think about the potential for OM. I hold it as a real possibility, and I'm trying not to lie to myself. Still, the more I address my own insecurities and issues, I am finding that I look for evidence all the time and nothing ever changes my mind. As an example, I was able to access her gps location for a particular night. She went to a couple of bar/restaurants and came home before midnight. When I think of other details associated with the night, I can't help but think she went to someone's house and stayed until very late in the night before coming home. AND THAT'S WITH THE KNOWLEDGE SHE WAS ONLY AT RESTAURANTS AND CAME HOME BEFORE MIDNIGHT! I am becoming more and more aware that suspicion creates more suspicion and can't really be satisfied. I am keeping my mind, eyes, and ears open to the presence of an OM, but I am becoming increasingly aware of my suspicions and their potential damage to the relationship.

In other news, I am finally dealing with the pornography issue in a sustainable way. I hope this will benefit our marriage, but either way it will make me a better father.

When I said we were close I meant this: We made out a bit and had some sexual touching. After that, we just laid on the couch and watched the sunset and talked for about an hour. Like we used to. We were close and seemed to both be enjoying it, but no sex occurred. I have made it clear to her that I am open to sex, but I will not be initiating or asking for it. If we have sex, it will be because she is interested.

I am kicking porn out of my life and working on being less co-dependent. I feel bad for letting these things into my life and allowing them to effect our relationship. Still, all I can do is focus on today. Today I will not use porn and I will not act co-dependent. That is my daily mantra. Again, if you pray, please pray for healing and understanding for my wife and I. Thanks again.

[youngson]

Down time is the hardest. Especially with all of the shutdowns due to the virus. I have never been very good at working from home. I get distracted and just lose motivation.

It's during these times that I miss my wife the most. I would give anything to be waking up together on a slow day. I find myself wanting to reach out to her and tell her how much I love her. I go back over all of my mistakes and the missed chances for connection. I recall so many happy memories and moments, and I wish that beautiful girl was here with me right now.

This board has helped me be a better man and ease the tension between my W and I. When we are around each other now, things are much more pleasant. When she brings up logistical concerns about our continued separation and potential divorce, I feel the stab of pain, but I don't react. I focus on the task at hand and don't let her see that all of these little steps away from each other are killing me.

I think she is noticing some changes, but I'm trying really hard to stop trying to read her mind. It never worked well for our R, and it definitely won't work now. We have been caught in a pursuer-withdrawer dynamic for a long time, with me as the pursuer. Detaching has been terrifying and very difficult. All of the fears of abandonment remain present, and I just have to hope that stepping out of my side of the dynamic will give her the chance to step out of hers. As I have stopped initiating contact, stopped initiating physical touch, and stopped suggesting we do anything together, I have noticed that she initiates. She seems to find excuses to touch me and initiates hugs. She has started suggesting more family activities and even made vague suggestions about the two of us spending time together. I respond warmly to these actions and statements, but I don't feel desperate or needy anymore. I know that I have love and care to offer if it's desired, and I am starting to see how I so often pursued her to satisfy my own neediness. When we hug now, I feel like I am giving her a hug rather than receiving one from her. When she touches me, it feels like she gets the privilege of being close to me rather than me getting some need met. All in all, I am feeling more like the man I once was.

I have a friend who is a couples' counselor, and I recently interviewed her for an assignment. One of the things she talked about was partners who still feel love for their partner but don't feel like they can be vulnerable to the pain of the relationship anymore. I am not the only one who has contributed to the pain of my M, but I can begin to see my W's perspective a little better. She still says she loves me and adds "it's not as simple as not loving you." She has said this is very difficult for her, too, and not how she wanted our relationship to end. I have had such a difficult time understanding these words and argued with her about them in the past. Listening to understand and validating has helped me hear and see my W in ways I was missing. While I don't share her experience, I can start to wrap my head around how someone could feel the ways she expresses.

I will continue to make personal changes. Of course, I hope these changes accumulate and give my W hope for the marriage, but I know there is no timetable for this and no guarantee that it will ever happen. While I don't want to believe that our M will end in D, I know I don't want to go back to the person I was. I believe if I can make these changes while separated and dealing with a million other life stressors, they must be real. Although things seem clearer and I feel stronger, every day is a struggle. I cycle between hope and despair endlessly. The extremes have softened, and I've become more productive. Thanks to everyone who reads this. It is helpful and healing to share my experience with others who understand.

[FFHubby]

Hey Young,

My heart breaks for you, and I'm really sorry that you are going through this. You seem to have a great head on your shoulders, and I'm proud of you for putting in the work and doing much better than I did in my sitch.

I joined this site way too late and lost a short marriage. It was eye-opening to me, and allowed me to realize what I brought in due to the familiar patterns that I learned from my parents. The marriage could and should have been saved, but it's all about committment.

Just want to let you know that regardless of what happens, the changes you are making are for you. Do you want your wife and marriage to benefit from it as well? Of course!

I have a sister and BIL that are both Christian counselors. They pointed me to a book about attachment theories, and it's honestly been life changing. There are many different books about this, but the one I am reading comes from a non-spiritual perspective, focusing solely on psychology. It's called "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find-- and Keep-- Love" by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller.

Based on your responses mentioning you being the pursuer and your wife being the distancer, I would assume you have an anxious attachment and she has an avoidant attachement. I too am anxious. Part of my healing journey is working through my past with a counselor to address this, and to become more secure in life but also in romantic relationships.

I just started dating the first woman since my divorce back in December of 2018. She is an avoidant, so it makes things much more difficult, because with me being anxious, I long for emotional connection while that drives her away from me. My goal through therapy is to become more secure, to understand that she has a defense mechanism that has been programmed in her brain through a very abusive, needy and dramatic mother and it's not my fault.

Not sure if this violates the terms on this site (please remove if so), but I genuinely feel and care for you as I know this process is very difficult.

You are doing all the right things, and I commend you for that! Please take a look at this theory/book.

FF

[DaB35]

Hi Youngson

I have read most of your thread - forgive me if I've missed anything as I may have skim read some posts.

Sorry to hear what you are going through; it sounds very tough. Regarding porn, this is what broke my marriage. I kept it from my XW for almost our entire relationship (8 years). Out of shame, I kept it secret, which drives you to continue the behaivour. It's a vicious circle. Since 2017 I would 'slip up' and she would discover things - an adult channel marker that was not flicked back to normal channel, pics on my phone. She asked "is there anything else"? I lied to her face and said no. Then in 2019 she discovered that I had subscribed to a (free) site, had an account, was uploading stuff, commenting on pics, adding friends etc. on a regular basis, sometimes when she was even in the house. This then led to me contacting 2 women (online only) - we'd swap pics etc. XW found out everything, all at once, in one morning.

Within 24hrs she decided on D - yes 24hrs. She then told her entire family and friends what I did over the next 14 days. She dismissed MC. IMO she desperately needed IC herself (she has her own issued with self confidence etc. but she just doesn't seek help). Her family exasperate her own problems, but they're the ones she always runs to. Now, this is not like your sitch at all, and forgive me for the long post, but I'm just providing a bit of context for my next few paragraphs.

I can understand how relapsing happens. You think you can simply "stop", but it is not that simple. It's like telling an drug addict to simply stop and not get any help to understand why they're doing what they're doing, and simply hope for the best. I tried to quit on my own and failed. My addiction stemmed from poor self image almost to the point of self hate (I'm rubbish, so therefore I should do a rubbish thing), jealously, feeling as though I'd underachieved compared to the other men in my XW's family etc. The embarrassment and shame of the addiction meant I couldn't reach out to others without my XW's knowledge. This may well explain your relapses. This is something I learned from home life. My parents do not voice their problems. They are 'moaners' and 'mutterers'. It was only when I got into IC that things clicked into place.

Do a lot of reading. Take time out. Breathe. Do a few of your normal routine bits and bobs a bit slower.
Definitely read up on the "Dance of pursuit and distance". I found it complex at first but repeated readings help.
I'd echo what others have already said in simpy improve yourself and just let that 'new' you act naturally. Don't demonstrate your new improved actions and ask for praise from your W. Just do it. She will notice if she cares about the R. You just have to sustain it.

For me, this whole thing was like a massive reset button had been pressed. I have turned myself round; I've beaten porn so you can too. It doesn't even enter my head now; my IC helped me build my confidence to the point where I've got a new hobby, I've returned to old ones and just improved my perception of myself. I haven't seen my XW since September 2019; D was final in February. I've changed. I put work in and now I don't consciously have to do the positive stuff, it just happens. This will happen to you too.

Most importantly, I now have self respect. When you get to the point of finding that, you're well on your way to DBing!

[youngson]

Thanks, FFHubby! I will definitely check that book out when I can. I actually work in mental health and I am pretty aware of those concepts, especially the role of attachment. Counselors and psychologists have plenty of their own problems, too. As soon as emotions and true vulnerability get involved, graduate level training is meaningless! Haha

As I peel back the layers of my own "pursuer" dynamic, I'm finding more and more underneath. All kinds of ways I was pursuing that I had just internalized as normal relationship behavior. And seeing her act a little differently has alerted me to all the ways she was withdrawing. The scariest thing in the world is stopping the pursuit of someone you love moving away from you. But it's the only option, really.

DaB35, I am sorry to hear about your situation. That is such a quick turnaround from one life to the next. Thank you for sharing and for your thoughts on porn addiction. I have made some changes to my plan for sobriety that I think will make a big difference. I won't get too specific on here, because that's not really what this site's about. I am part of another online community that is very helpful in maintaining accountability and motivation.

Might as well update while I'm posting: Continued changes in W and I interactions. I won't say if they are positive or negative, because I don't know. I've stopped trying to read her mind. They're positive for me. We spent a several hours yesterday all together as a family, mostly at the park just wandering around. Conversation was easy and free. I was confident and cheerful but not pursuing. She is acting much calmer around me now, and even more feminine. She's initiating touch and hugs here and there, but nothing sexual. It was my night with our son, and after we left I got a text saying it was the best day she had had in a long time. She's going to come over later this morning to make breakfast and spend some more down time together as a family.

I'm really trying to balance some of the principles of DB-ing with pulling myself out of the "pursuer" mode. I definitely don't want to come across as eager or too accessible to her. But, I'm also realizing my way of being in the relationship in the past has left her no room to actually pursue me. Since she is the withdrawer, I want to make sure I am "rewarding" her actions that pursue me. Hopefully I've said this in a way that makes sense. I don't think DB-ing is at all out of line with what I'm saying. I think I'm asking for others thoughts on how rewarding my wife's pursuits of me fit with DB-ing.

Again, thank you all. You have no idea how many stupid phone calls, texts, emails, etc. you have helped me NOT send. Thanks for helping me get my confidence back.

[Traveler]

Hi Youngson,

re: OM and your concerns about infidelity. Reading your thread, you bounce around a bit. First, you told us you had "proof", then that your friends believe you're prone to see "proof" of infidelity when it's not so.

Qs - Do you have undeniable proof of an EA or PA? If not, how strong is your evidence?

Qs - About being prone to imagine infidelity--are your friends right, and why do you think they believe that?

Affairs are common here--just trying to better understand your specifics.

[youngson]

CWarrior,

I appreciate the questions. I do not have undeniable proof. I had what might amount to circumstantial evidence re: If you already believe an A is happening, these things confirm the suspicion. Some question marks and unclear things but nothing undeniable. Mind you, this is after gaining access (sporadically) to emails, transactions, location history, etc. Every little purchase I thought seemed strange has either turned out to just be normal stuff or be exactly what my W has told me. W is not tech illiterate, but she's nowhere near good enough to hide literally everything.

I am definitely prone to imagine it at this time. We are physically separated living in different apartments. She had a fairly 1-sided EA years back (We attended counseling, she went through necessary steps, ended it the way we agreed upon). Over the last 6-7 months or so, W's behavior has shifted to look more like a WW than a WAW. And, it's hard for me to understand how someone would leave a M with a baby without having something better they thought they were going to. Also, as much as this forum has been a blessing, I think sometimes I read others' stories and start to worry that's "what's really going on" in my M or it's something that "could happen."

All that said, yes my suspicions can become unhelpful. In the anxious state I've been in (actually coming out of it for about the last week), any little thing that could be taken as another "sign" was seen that way. One of my major suspicious pieces of "evidence" was proven to be nothing (confirmed myself not by my wife). I started to realize I take a bad situation and pour gasoline on the fire with constant suspicion and overreaction. I am now resolved to take more of a "trust but verify" approach. I won't stick my head in the sand and ignore reality, but neither I nor my W can continue down the path of constant suspicion.

Around this same time, I finally started to acknowledge what a hellish pursuit-withdrawal cycle my W and I have been caught in. Suspicion was just another form of pursuit by me. And the whole pursuit had become about me, not about my W or our M. I am relearning how to be in R with my W. I am finding that as I drop the pursuit she stops withdrawing. Don't know where it will end up, but the 3 of us just had the best weekend we've had in ages, all together. No pursuit, nothing serious. It was just relaxed and fun, the way it should have always been.

[youngson]

Update time.

Things have been going really well over the last 2 weeks. Much better communication. I have continued to improve myself and regained mental stability and confidence. Detachment and validation have been a godsend for me. I am so thankful to have all the resources this board provides. These 2 skills alone have helped me avoid jumping back in to the death spiral we have been in for a long time.

Lately, she has brought up topics of "if we can work things out". Thinking about some of the things that have made our current situation difficult and discussing potential plans for the future.

Over the last week, W has initiated time together and phone conversations regularly. She's even started to come to me for support when stressed like she used to. Yesterday, she sought me out to process a very stressful work situation. Last night, she confided in me about some very difficult things she's dealing with emotionally. We talked for about 2 hours and it was very positive.

This morning I was picking S up from her place so she could do a little work from home. She offered to make a full pot of coffee so we could all hang out for a little bit before I left with him. I woke late and arrived later than planned. She went into a rage about this. Went straight to cancelling plans for the day/weekend. Rewriting how things have been for the last month. Felt like S was rejecting her. It really felt like a setback. I apologized for being late I told her she needed to talk calmly to me, especially in front of our son and that I would not fight with her. She said bye to S, and I left. This is where detachment and validation come in. I had to fight very hard with myself to not text or call her to try and repair and get things back "how they were." I just went home and played with S. She asked for an update on him and I responded. Continued to give space. A few minutes ago, she texted me saying she was very sorry about her reaction and knew that her interpretation of my being late was wrong. She talked about some of the things she was feeling and stated she knew they were irrational. I thanked her for the apology and just validated her feelings. Whether or not our weekend plans resume, I don't know. I will see her one way or another later today when she picks up S. I'm hopeful continued detachment and validation will stop us from going back into that horrible cycle. I'm thankful to this community for giving me the skills to pull myself out of it. In the past I would have gotten drawn into a fight then pursued her to repair things. It's so difficult to stop myself from pursuing her, but it has allowed her the space to see things more clearly and move toward me.

We have a long journey ahead of us and I don't know how it will end. DB-ing has helped me stop worrying about the destination and focus on each individual footstep. I don't know how this all ends, but I can make the right decisions/actions moment to moment.

[sandi2]

Hey Youngson, glad to see you hanging in there. I wanted to respond to a couple of things in your recent posts. The first one is on the subject of pursuer and rewarding.

I'm really trying to balance some of the principles of DB-ing with pulling myself out of the "pursuer" mode. I definitely don't want to come across as eager or too accessible to her. But, I'm also realizing my way of being in the relationship in the past has left her no room to actually pursue me. Since she is the withdrawer, I want to make sure I am "rewarding" her actions that pursue me. Hopefully I've said this in a way that makes sense. I don't think DB-ing is at all out of line with what I'm saying. I think I'm asking for others thoughts on how rewarding my wife's pursuits of me fit with DB-ing.

Have you read that you should reward her when she pursues you? I know the board is quick to point out pursuing actions to LBH's.....b/c some guys don't realize they are actually pursuing.

Why do you feel you should "reward" her actions that pursue you? What pursuing actions are you talking about?

Let's try something. Instead of using the verb "pursue", let's substitute it with "pressure". Speaking from the W's point of view, she withdraws whenever she feels emotional pressure from you. The more pressure she feels from you, the further she moves. Now, unfortunately, some men have this idea that if they continue pursuing.....I mean, applying emotional pressure.....the W will eventually wear down, and he'll finally be rewarded. If that should describe you, please consider putting a fast halt to that behavior right now. I think the biggest area that this pursuing and withdrawing examples are seen in the couple's sex life.

Perhaps you chased her during your initial dating period, and you were "rewarded" by her accepting dates with you. However, the game has changed now. If you stop applying emotional pressure, how will you ever get what you desire? Isn't that what worries you? Why do you think the "withdrawer" controls the relationship? How do you stop that dynamic?

Things have been going really well over the last 2 weeks. Much better communication. I have continued to improve myself and regained mental stability and confidence. Detachment and validation have been a godsend for me. I am so thankful to have all the resources this board provides. These 2 skills alone have helped me avoid jumping back in to the death spiral we have been in for a long time.

That's great! Did you know that male confidence ranks in the top priorities that women find attractive? (That includes WW's.) I encourage you to listen to motivational tapes, give yourself pep talks, etc., to keep a healthy level of self confidence. Focus on your male confidence, instead of focusing on how to pursue your WW. Male confidence works like a natural magnet. You just need to know how to handle it.

Over the last week, W has initiated time together and phone conversations regularly. She's even started to come to me for support when stressed like she used to. Yesterday, she sought me out to process a very stressful work situation. Last night, she confided in me about some very difficult things she's dealing with emotionally. We talked for about 2 hours and it was very positive.

I want to caution you about her using you as her personal counselor. She will friend zone you, if you are available whenever she has the need to talk about her problems. The unsuspecting H thinks they are getting closer b/c she's calling often to bend his ear about poor little her. Sorry, but she doesn't have the hots for him, she's using him like a girlfriend. If that's fine with him......okay, but he needn't expect the relationship to shift to having sex.

One sign that usually indicates she's having a pity-party +1, is when the conversation is all about her. Now, should she show as much interest in you as in herself......maybe it isn't a pity-party. Is half the conversation about your personal life, and does she ask questions? Or can you tell she's quickly bored if the subject is on you instead of her?

I woke late and arrived later than planned. She went into a rage about this. Went straight to cancelling plans for the day/weekend. Rewriting how things have been for the last month.

No surprise there! WW's are filled with anger toward their H, and the minute he does something that suggests it's not all about her.....that anger blazes. So much for all those hours of listening to her pity-party!

It really felt like a setback. I apologized for being late I told her she needed to talk calmly to me, especially in front of our son and that I would not fight with her. She said bye to S, and I left. This is where detachment and validation come in. I had to fight very hard with myself to not text or call her to try and repair and get things back "how they were." I just went home and played with S.

You need to learn a lesson from this experience, and it won't be a setback. First of all, you did not intentionally try to pi$$ her off. Secondly, you apologized for being late. Thirdly, why the heck did she offer to make a pot of coffee, if you were already late in picking up S? There was no appointment she had to leave to attend. She was just going to work around the house.........or so she said. Was this your normal day to pick up S, or were you doing it so she would have time to do stuff at home? She tore into you b/c you didn't dance like she wanted you to do.

As best that I can tell, you handled it pretty well. I like that you told her to speak to you calmly in front of S. Next time, use the word "respect" (instead of calmly) you in front of S. I'm not sure what you mean by this is where validation came in. But I give you points for not calling and trying to repair things. She reacted very badly, so don't jump and try to fix things. She needs to own her bad behavior.......not have you always trying to make things nice again. That is not helping a WW, whatsoever. Are you aware that a woman knows exactly who she can shred apart with her angry reactions? It's the man who tries to soothe the situation and calm her down. She has no respect for this guy. None! She'll continue to blow up on him whenever something doesn't suit her, b/c she knows there will be no backlash.

I just went home and played with S. She asked for an update on him and I responded. Continued to give space.

She didn't need an update on him! Was he running a fever or throwing up? Does she not trust you to take care of him? No, she was temp checking you! And, you responded, so that was her signal to call.

Question.........how do you respond and give her space?

A few minutes ago, she texted me saying she was very sorry about her reaction and knew that her interpretation of my being late was wrong. She talked about some of the things she was feeling and stated she knew they were irrational.

Let me tell you a little secret. She knew at the time she was bashing you, but she was mad and knew she could get away with it. And......as usual, it's all about her.

I thanked her for the apology and just validated her feelings.

What did you say to validate her feelings?

Whether or not our weekend plans resume, I don't know. I will see her one way or another later today when she picks up S. I'm hopeful continued detachment and validation will stop us from going back into that horrible cycle. I'm thankful to this community for giving me the skills to pull myself out of it. In the past I would have gotten drawn into a fight then pursued her to repair things. It's so difficult to stop myself from pursuing her, but it has allowed her the space to see things more clearly and move toward me.

Well, the weekend is over now, so maybe I shouldn't say anything. I don't want you getting confused over what I'm saying. I am not telling you to get pulled into her drama and/or fight with her. Neither do I feel you should turn into Mr. Fix-it when she disrespects you (especially in front of your son). You are showing him how to be a man!! I don't know how long you hung around when you went to pick him up, but if you immediately left upon her angry outburst......then you did the right thing. If this ever happens again, I don't think you should be so ready to listen to her apology and another couple hours of her talking about her favorite subject......herself. I'm just saying an apology is not a license to do it again.

Next time, I suggest you be prepared to state a boundary (but only if you can back it up). Something like, "An apology has no value if the action doesn't stop. I will not continue allowing my son to witness his mother verbally disrespecting me. If it happens again, I will stay in the car and wait for S". Then you immediately leave, hang up the phone, or whatever. Don't keep talking with her. You state the boundary, firmly, and end the conversation. No negotiations!

Sorry, but you aren't detached.....and you aren't giving her enough space. You are on the phone for hours, and you are spending family time together.......so where is the space? Maybe you are better than you were, but you are a long way from being emotionally detached. You are so afraid you're going to lose her. That's why she lashes out at you, b/c she smells your fear. Stop fretting that you'll have a setback! This thinking will turn you into a wimp. You are one of these guys who is only focused on getting her back! What do you have if she comes back? Well, I'll tell you. A she-devil.......that's what you'll have.

It's so difficult to stop myself from pursuing her,

Why in this world would you pursue any person who doesn't have the same feelings as you, and who won't treat you well? Can you just explain that type of thinking to me? IDK if it is due to low self-esteem, or if it's arrogance. Maybe I give men too much credit for being the more "logical thinkers", b/c this makes no sense to me.