KitCat, I've never seen your situation as hopeless.
Your relationship with your H seems toxic--co-dependent attempts to control each other and wishy-washy boundaries. I don't see you as the Driver of the crazy train because he seems to steer it, but as soon as you learn to stop being a Rider and he sees he's on the crazy train even without you, your chances of reconciling grow as do your chances of being happy solo or with someone else. For many of us therapy (IC) was that way forward. There are also great books on self-compassion if you hate IC, e.g. Kristin Neff.
Originally Posted by KitCat
Clear boundaries were set --
He uses printer/scanner He gets mail He leaves totes He takes bike and goes on his way
Did he convince you to drop the boundary of getting the bike's valuation before releasing it to him? That was the one the attorney recommended and job/I gave suggestions on completing.
Boundaries control your actions to protect you. "If he's disrespectful, then I will hang up." What if he doesn't follow the above? Getting angry and reasoning hasn't sounded effective so far.
Originally Posted by KitCat
I'm down 18lb (wish it was 28lb but I'll take it) I look better than the last time he saw me. Hair and make up is on point!! Well about as point as you can be in times of no hairstylists. I'm in yoga pants because he can't not look at a great butt in yoga pants. Nice snug T to accentuate the assets. Nice perfume.
I bet he will notice! It sounds like you're at your sexiest and most beautiful and he may miss that.
The most effective changes are the ones he notices without prompting.
PS - I admire you are continuing to post even your goofs. That shows a level of strength. Some people disappear for a month when they feel embarrassed. I've been tempted to stop posting when I goof, too!
He went off on how he can't stand to be in a car with me for any length of time. He had a ride and she would drop him off (he didn't mean to drop the word she... he had been trying to say friend). I made it clear that SHE will NOT be coming to my house. He tried to play off it was a female friend and I didn't know her name.... WHATEVER. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday.
That's a boundary you can't enforce. Stick to boundaries you can enforce. If you set a boundary like that and he violates it anyway, then it just makes you look weak and powerless to him. Don't show him your jealous side. Your attitude should be the Pope or Miss America can drop him off for all you care, it's all the same to you.
You are right. I had to think long AND hard what were my true motivations??? I really didn't want anyone outside of H involved in this with me - its a privacy thing. BUT - I think there was some part of me that wanted to show H I could let go of control. Being in the car with me could be a positive thing and not something to loathe.
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He went on to state his parents were going to help and they were hurt when he told them I did not want them here. I told H I had nothing against his parents. It did not feel cool to have his parents there helping to move my H out of our marital home.
See this would have been a good time to validate. "I'm sorry they were upset." "So they can come over?" "No, given our current situation I think it would be best that they not. It's just not appropriate right now."
Yeah I tried to say something along those lines but it didn't come off as smooth as the above ^^^.
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He got upset said I was being difficult and controlling. I asked that he see my perspective and working in my comfort zone.
Again, good time to validate. "I hear you saying you think I'm being difficult, that must be very frustrating for you." What you did was the opposite of validating, you basically told him you don't care what he thinks/ feels, HE needs to see it from YOUR point of view.
Now I did do that. I stated "I'm sorry you think I'm being difficult" BUT it seems to p*ss him off. This has happened before when I think I'm really doing a great job of validating. He responds "thats because you are being that way". Is this a normal thing for them to do after validating??? It seems to escalate his anger rather than diffuse often times. That's when I stumble.
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AND, I did a major DB no no. I told him I was dealing with a lot of hurt.
Well you are for sure and I do feel bad for you, this stuff is no fun for sure! But don't share that or any other feelings with him. If he shares with you then fine, validate. But don't share anything back. Because he doesn't care one bit, and to him it just sounds like you are selfish and make every convo about you.[/quote]
Yes --- I really wish I had read this before seeing him today.. I have to remember my feelings are not to be shared with him... I must only be open for validation of his feelings.
I really appreciate the help AS. Its been baby steps forward in my emotional well being and lots of miss steps in interacting with H. I'm terrified once all the stuff is gone we will be separate - no contact. no need for any interaction... and that does terrify me.
I want nothing more than to turn this big honkin' cruise ship around... but like the current states of cruise ships right now mine is also stuck/restricted to port.
Last edited by job; 04/08/2008:31 PM. Reason: edited language
[quote=KitCat]He has checked out and isn't coming back.
KitCat, I've never seen your situation as hopeless.
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Your one of the few. Both of my bff's - one male and one female said its so completely over for him. He is not coming back.
Most of the reading I'm doing is that people give up too soon and if they just hung in a little longer things would turn around.
I don't want to give up too soon. But, frankly at times it feels I'm being buried alive.
Originally Posted by KitCat
I'm down 18lb (wish it was 28lb but I'll take it) I look better than the last time he saw me. Hair and make up is on point!! Well about as point as you can be in times of no hairstylists. I'm in yoga pants because he can't not look at a great butt in yoga pants. Nice snug T to accentuate the assets. Nice perfume.
I bet he will notice! It sounds like you're at your sexiest and most beautiful and he may miss that.
[quote]The most effective changes are the ones he notices without prompting.
I sure hope so!!!! I didn't say a word about it. I've been working soooo hard on myself. I hate exercising. I always procrastinate but the minute I've done it for the day I'm so happy and proud of myself... but I hate the process.
I am doing this for myself - when my weight is down I FEEL BETTER. I will smile more. I'm more outgoing. I feel confident in my own skin.
But I sooooo want to be noticed. I get it that being detached is not caring what he thinks. BUT we haven't laid eyes on each other in over 3 weeks. I certainly noticed him. Surely he noticed me???
Now I did do that. I stated "I'm sorry you think I'm being difficult" BUT it seems to p*ss him off. This has happened before when I think I'm really doing a great job of validating. He responds "thats because you are being that way". Is this a normal thing for them to do after validating??? It seems to escalate his anger rather than diffuse often times. That's when I stumble.
Hi KitCat, when we talk validation here, we're usually talking about feelings. In AnotherStander's examples he mentioned "frustration". He may also have felt "anger" or "disappointment". To validate feelings you usually need to have some idea where there's coming from. Validation is often disarming.
If you have 3 minutes, Google "Brene Brown Empathy" for a good intro to validation. If you have 30 minutes, there's a great thread on here. If you have more time I read "The Art of Listening". Full disclosure--Validation was not a magic bullet that saved my relationship but it defanged our most heated arguments.
Thank you to everyone who has been helping me get moving in the right direction - even those who just stop by to read and then can't even come up with the words for this freak show. Thank you to everyone.
It goes without saying when you haven't seen someone for 3 weeks its a little nerve wracking. This is a drop in the bucket for whats to come. After he is moved out it could be months if ever we see each other.
He was scruffy looking. Of course no one can get their hair done and I'm sure its driving him nuts. He is military and likes a high and tight. I love his longer hair (and ladies its not that long). I used to run my fingers through it touching his head. He soooo loved that. I was surprised he hadn't shaved his head because he doesn't like when his hair is long enough to need a comb.
He hadn't shave recently either. He smelled heavy of cigarette smoke. I hated the fact that he smoked. Nagged him to quit. Ignored it to get him to quit. Realized over time I wasn't kissing him as much - I think that was the combo of the smoking and the beard he was growing. Sadly he noticed that I wasn't kissing him either. I objected to the smell. He never smoked around me and it was years before he even smoked outside the house on occasion. I know he wanted to quit and he would cut back but when you work where he does you are around it all the time.
Why today??? Why today did I find the heavy cigarette smoke lingering on him sooo comforting? I really did.
I hoped he notice me... 18lb lighter... on point hair and make up... yoga pants showing off my butt and snug t-shirt highlighting my favorite feature of his. I'm sure he also noticed my wedding ring still on. I never caught him directly looking but its still there on my finger.
I had jumped into the passenger seat. I let him drive. He is an aggressive driver - likes to go fast, pass, he gets impatient. I started doing all the driving trying to avoid the him whipping in and out of traffic. My H knows how to handle a car to get the best performance. We once test drove challengers and he ripped up the road with that thing.
We had gotten into a terrible rut. He would complain about my driving... I would remind him he had a wreck with my car (some time ago - but I never let it go??? why??? I think I was defensive of his criticism.) I complained about his driving. We just got in that terrible habit of bickering. To the point that you just don't notice it anymore... its your new norm. It was terrible of us. I had the ability to change my behavior but we just kept doing the same song and dance.
I let him drive. I relaxed. I didn't let his speeding and passing affect me. Frankly I was distracted talking to him.
The very first words out of his mouth "which dog was sick?" Now the night before I was trying to get off the phone because I was tired after being up all night with a sick dog. He responded he didn't care - I always had excuses.
So the turn around took my breath away a minute. I said both. First puppy for 3 days then dog. He then asked what was wrong. Puppy probably ate something he shouldn't and the dog was probably a new treat I had picked up didn't sit well with him.
We talked the entire hour on the way back to my house.
He asked about the affidavit. I stated that I had already been in touch with my atty twice today and was waiting to hear back. And, I would resolve what I needed as soon as I had her input. He seemed comfortable with that.
I asked about work knowing he is laid off. He stated that they are being told to file for unemployment next week.. He will be alright - this actually costs his employer more so it won't be for long.
I asked what he was doing to stay busy. He said going to his parents and helping there. Walking on trails and running... running I asked? H said yes.
He said he hadn't been online gaming at all. Oh... I should have said more but that was a burn that I had no first aid cream for. He had been spending more and more time over the years on FB gaming. He stated it was his chill out time because of his long working hours and long commute. He gamed everyday... and longer on weekends. We just got into a rut where I would go off and knit and he would online game. He has convinced himself that the online gaming was an escape from our M for him. He was so miserable he needed an escape. So hearing that he wasn't gaming is a positive but then he is also stating that it was a negative of our M. He obviously felt the need to bring it up. I should have validated??? It hurt so I felt I was doing great maintaining composure period.
Talked about his family - and extended family. Talked about my SS20 who is deployed but was supposed to be home before now.
Talked a ton about the virus... a lot all aspects. He was not aware of the minor issues of other species coming down with illness so it was an interesting talk for him. He asked about my work and why we are so busy - just trying to wrap his head around with people out of work how am I so busy. We will be affected but not for 12-24months later.
He again asked about the affidavit like we hadn't already covered it. That confused me but I was kind and just explained to him again what I had just told him earlier. He stated as soon as he has that he should be able to close on his loan next Mon... I said okay.
He states how he is becoming a chef. He cooks for them every night. H has a huge passion for food and cooking. He used to cook a frequently for me. He has mad knife skills. Over the years I just ended up doing more of the cooking and he rarely cooked though we watched cooking shows - huge Alton B fan. I asked what types of things he was cooking... he said he was getting creative with hamburger... oh really??? Such as? He comments mac and cheese with hamburger (he hates mac and cheese). He stated he made queso and we have queso and chips every other night... YES - in my head, WE= H + OW. Trying NOT to say one word. He goes on to talk grocery shopping. I haven't gotten to do much seafood as THEY don't like seafood much.
Okay THEY is not WE. Must be male friend R and wife/daughter. Who am I kidding OW probably also joins them. They are ALL high school friends.
OK -AS I stupidly put foot in mouth again. I said I had hoped some nights that he would have gotten up and cooked dinner for me when I got home but he was always sleeping. It was my job to get home and cook dinner, get him up. Make sure he had food for lunches at work. My job had gotten so busy that I wasn't getting home in time to cook dinner... and he commented that I was slacking on my job. I felt bad but he could have gotten up and cooked. He didn't say anything to my comment.
H started mentioning this friend /that friend. He is reconnecting with other HS friends. I just feel so bad that he felt so isolated with me in my town and driving to work in another town and having a good social circle here. He had to have been so lonely especially when he felt I was rejecting him.
Male friend, R I was originally told was LCSW but today H used the word the psychiatrist in referring to him... maybe he meant psychologist?? H has been using him for IC. I doubt this mans integrity because due to their friendship he should be referring him to someone else. The sad part of this is BOTH male friend, R and his wife have posted testimonials to OW FB page after their declaration of love on how they were both so glad to be witnesses to this beautiful thing..... HE'S MARRIED PEOPLE.
I didn't bring up OW or anything negative.
We go to the house and he pulled car into garage and he noticed how big the puppy was (its been 3 weeks since he last saw him and he is 60lb now). He got the puppy out and greeted the puppy who then ran right for me.
I went in the house first. H was tinkering with the bike. He eventually came in and went right into our bedroom... ok. Used our bathroom. I guess old habits die hard. He brought out some trays that were kept on his nightstand and started going through them looking for the second key fob for the bike. He literally only took the key fob and put everything else back on the nightstand - including the boat key.
I left him to go the computer alone. I was staying busy with the dogs and not hovering. He did ask me to help him with the scanner as he couldn't remember what to click. I helped him and then left him to finish his email. After his email he made a phone call to make sure his email and document got there. I was in the other room. I could HEAR his smile. We had been cordial all day but he hadn't smiled for me.
He went back out to the bike and then asked if he could have something to wipe it down with - went and retrieved. He grabbed his boots from the boot tray and packed up. As he was wiping down the bike I asked if he was in a hurry - he stated he expected that I was in a hurry to get him out of here.
I thought of Sandi's rules - where its okay to ask if they want to do something with you as long as it doesn't affect you and you are okay if they don't go... well I'm sure AS will slap my hand for what I did....
I asked if he could take me for a ride (OMG... NO I DIDN'T??? OH YES I DID). He didn't look up and there was some background noise and he has hearing issues. Did he even hear me??? I went back in the house. Came out as he was finishing up the bike. I said 'I wasn't sure if you herd me'. Again, not looking up and taking 30seconds before saying "I have to get back to X as I still have to get someone to take me to my truck". I said Ok... and went back in the house.
I sat on the couch keeping to myself so I would not hover. I heard him start up the lawn mower... turn off and start up again.. and then a third time. I stayed on the couch. He came back in the house and went back to the bathroom and bedroom. I didn't follow him --- not hovering. He kind of moved around I think looking to see where I was. He found me and looked right at me. We talked about the lawn mower.
Somehow we ended out in the garage. I asked if the trimmer started - I've never used and he never taught S18 to use. He said it should but its temperamental. I said well since its just me I'll just get an electric one. Maybe you should take that. He said he was just getting an electric one too because the yard was small.
He starts talking about how big his garage is and how he could live in it. The house and yard are small but very nice. He said if I let him take the puppy (heart dropping) he would have to walk him everyday but he is super close to walking trail. I said that sounds nice.
He asks if he wants me to bring in the totes from the SUV - no I'll get later. He then said Sunday? I said yes. I went into the house and he was in the garage for another 10min before I heard that big beautiful bike pull away.
I didn't cry. I'm sad but didn't cry at the big empty space in the garage.
There was NOTHING negative... unlike our texts/calls.
I have NO expectations (ok I'd like too but that is dumb).
Male BFF states - that he believes it meant nothing to him. For him this is a stress release because he is getting his stuff and he is seeing an end in sight.
^^^He is probably 100% right.
Not 3hr after he left H texted: Can I get that letter?
Gee thanks... we talked multiple times as soon as I hear I will tell you. But, no I shouldn't be surprised because H is all about being selfish.
Well and there you have it ladies and gents... my day after not seeing H for 3 weeks.
You stated that S often use pets to stay in touch with LBS.
I'm afraid that if H takes puppy that I will be the one trying to maintain contact over puppy. One of the reasons I thought about keeping puppy is so that I don't have that excuse.
I think puppy would be good for H.
Puppy's are my job... literally... for real. I am bonded and will wonder and wish to inquire and I know when he leaves with dog I cannot contact him over it.
Now I did do that. I stated "I'm sorry you think I'm being difficult" BUT it seems to p*ss him off. This has happened before when I think I'm really doing a great job of validating. He responds "thats because you are being that way". Is this a normal thing for them to do after validating??? It seems to escalate his anger rather than diffuse often times. That's when I stumble.
Hi KitCat, when we talk validation here, we're usually talking about feelings. In AnotherStander's examples he mentioned "frustration". He may also have felt "anger" or "disappointment". To validate feelings you usually need to have some idea where there's coming from. Validation is often disarming.
If you have 3 minutes, Google "Brene Brown Empathy" for a good intro to validation. If you have 30 minutes, there's a great thread on here. If you have more time I read "The Art of Listening". Full disclosure--Validation was not a magic bullet that saved my relationship but it defanged our most heated arguments.
Ok - so I should have said - "I'm sorry you are angry about me being difficult"???
That would have diffused and not make him angry like "I'm sorry you think I'm being difficult"?
He went on to state his parents were going to help and they were hurt when he told them I did not want them here.
"It must have been hard delivering that news and seeing them hurting."
Originally Posted by KitCat
I told H I had nothing against his parents. It did not feel cool to have his parents there helping to move my H out of our marital home. He got upset said I was being difficult and controlling.
Ok - so I should have said - "I'm sorry you are angry about me being difficult"???
"I get you're frustrated you believe I'm controlling many details of the move-out."
I would not justify your policy, apologize for his feelings, or accept his view that you're difficult and controlling. Again, it's also certainly fine to NOT validate when someone complains about you. Validation is about showing you get and empathize with their feelings, not that you agree with them.
He went on to state his parents were going to help and they were hurt when he told them I did not want them here.
"It must have been hard delivering that news and seeing them hurting."
Originally Posted by KitCat
I told H I had nothing against his parents. It did not feel cool to have his parents there helping to move my H out of our marital home. He got upset said I was being difficult and controlling.
Ok - so I should have said - "I'm sorry you are angry about me being difficult"???
"I get you're frustrated you believe I'm controlling many details of the move-out."
I would not justify your policy, apologize for his feelings, or accept his view that you're difficult and controlling. Again, it's also certainly fine to NOT validate when someone complains about you. Validation is about showing you get and empathize with their feelings, not that you agree with them.
Ok those are gold... why is it so hard when someone is venting at you to come up with such magic on your own!
