Seperated but holding on for reconciliation

[sandi2]

Sandi, as a Christian lady with perspective on the non-LBS's point of view, was there anything particular that made you turn back to your husband? Did you talk to God while you were going through everything? Did you hear from Him? If so, did it agree with what you wanted to do or did you have to explain it away?

Well, you know I can't answer with a few words.

I believe God speaks to us through His Word/Scriptures. I also believe the Holy Spirit can lead or convict the Christian......but the Spirit never contradicts the Word of God. I also believe the Christian must, first, confessed his/her sins, for God to hear the prayer. (I John 1:9) God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), which means He doesn't make exceptions for certain ones. God never contradicts His Word. He cannot agree with sin.

God did not speak to me directly, but if He had, He would not have agreed with what I wanted. How do I know? B/c God cannot fellowship with sin, and I knew I was living in disobedience. We can pray all the time, but if we are spiritually out of fellowship with God (living in disobedience to His Word), He is not going to answer or give us what we want. I knew not to ask God to bless anything that had to do with my A or breaking up my family.

I knew I was not living right, although I'd still join my H in attending church every Sunday. I remember asking God to help me, but then I would turn around and contact OM the minute I got home. God looks on the heart, and mine was a mess! After some time rocked on, I started seeing a few cracks in the OM. I was feeling so conflicted and I needed someone to talk to about my situation.....but I didn't want to talk about to someone I knew personally. So, one night I got on the computer to look for a Christian chat room. The one I tried were all joking around with each other, I felt they weren't really listening or taking me very seriously. I left that site pretty quickly and decided to search for marital help......and "just happened" to find the DB forum. I'd never been on a forum in my life (which is pretty obvious when reading my first thread). I "just happened" to get the board's best posters who talked to me straight.....which is what I wanted and needed. So, do I think it was all some random act that I found the right place and had the right posters tell me what I needed to know? No! I believe the timing was right, and I was in the right frame of mind to really hear what the posters were telling me. Just b/c we don't hear directly from God, doesn't mean He is not working through others and/or behind the scenes. Some may see this as the Holy Spirit's intervention, or not. All I know is that I'll never believe it was a random shot that I landed on the DB board..........after trying on a Christian chat room.

When I decided to do the right thing and end contact with OM, it was hard. I asked God to help me, but then I'd turn around and keep the fantasy alive by daydreaming of how "it could have been with OM". It took a while for me to come to terms with it, and realize that's why it was taking so long to get through the withdrawals. You can't keep the affair alive in your imagination. You have to kill it........even mentally.

At some point after that, I was finally praying seriously, and knew I had to dig deeper. I even asked God to help me feel remorse, b/c I had felt nothing. I laid it all out there, confessing everything and asking for God's forgiveness. I genuinely wanted my heart/spirit to be right with Him. I wanted to be free of the stubborn pride that had held me back. Finally the feelings of remorse hit me, and it was if the dam broke. It all unfolded so clearly in my head. If my H could forgive me, then why couldn't I forgive him for all his past mistakes. I didn't want to carry that resentment and disrespect for my H. I gave it all to God, and the humbleness filled my heart.

[JoeDredd]

Thanks Sandi. I've thought a lot about your post since you wrote it. Hopefully this week since I don't have the kids.

[JoeDredd]

Is there much similarity between a WW and WAW, in their behaviours and the way the LBH should respond?

(I've been reading the Sandi's Reflections thread and wondering if I am one of the "too much of a nice guy" guys described, and if the stonewalling etc from the W is the disrespect and rebellion that Sandi describes.)

[sandi2]

Is there much similarity between a WW and WAW, in their behaviours and the way the LBH should respond?

Well, you may be tired of hearing from me. These differences are described in my first WW thread, "Help for the newcomer LBH with a WW".

Here's the short version. The main differences, IMHO, can be found in her mindset. The WW has a hidden agenda (like pursuing a love affair). She can be described as having a sense of entitlement, rebellious, deceitful, disrespectful, lies when the truth would serve her better, manipulates, filled with anger/resentment, and has a cold & hardened heart, etc. etc. Put all this on steroids, and you start getting the picture.

The WAW may have just given up on the MR, or she may have a valid excuse to leave. However, she's not involved in an EA/PA/IA. She actually cares about the welfare of her children, and will make them a priority, rather than herself. She isn't out to do harm to her H.........but she is done with their M.

MWD does not separate the two in her book, Divorce Remedy. Except for a couple of things I disagree with (if she's a wayward W) the same approach can be used. The H's approach to a wayward W, is a tougher version. I explain why in the WW threads, but again, I'll try to give a shorter answer. The basic problem is the WW has lost respect and attraction for her H. The only thing she respects is strength. Therefore, he has to start there......commanding (not demanding )respect The LBH could work himself into the grave, trying to fix all her complaints about him.......and her feelings still wouldn't change. That's b/c she wasn't seeing any b@lls! He has to stop his NGS and learn how to set effective boundaries, and backup his word.

[JoeDredd]

Well, you may be tired of hearing from me.

Not at all, Sandi! I really appreciate all your help and insight. Please keep posting. I wish my wife and I could talk to you in person.

These differences are described in my first WW thread, "Help for the newcomer LBH with a WW".

Thanks. At first glance, my W definitely ticks some of the boxes but (thankfully) not all of them. Definitely these ones:

*She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you.
*You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk.
*Pursuit from her H only pushes her further away.
*She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions.

This is true too, but with the anger/resentment you mention as part of the WW definition:

The WAW may have just given up on the MR, or she may have a valid excuse to leave. However, she's not involved in an EA/PA/IA. She actually cares about the welfare of her children, and will make them a priority, rather than herself. She isn't out to do harm to her H.........but she is done with their M.

So I get to this point:

Except for a couple of things I disagree with (if she's a wayward W) the same approach can be used. The H's approach to a wayward W, is a tougher version. I explain why in the WW threads, but again, I'll try to give a shorter answer. The basic problem is the WW has lost respect and attraction for her H. The only thing she respects is strength. Therefore, he has to start there......commanding (not demanding) respect. The LBH could work himself into the grave, trying to fix all her complaints about him.......and her feelings still wouldn't change.

I'm sure I have a WAW rather than a WW, but now I'm unsure if there is disrespect to address too.
I did feel disrespected at times pre-BD and especially so when it happened in front of the children. This morning W dropped by with D12 to pick up D's umbrella on the way to school. Again, there was no greeting or anything; I was invisible until I said 'hello' a second time. I had advice earlier in the thread that I should detach. With the new information in the passage quoted above - which says "the same approach can be used" - I wonder if ignoring it will encourage disrespect, and if so if drawing a line will help our situation. Of course I don't want to go the wrong way on this and certainly don't want to bring it up if it's a minor issue and part of her healing process, etc. I'm so lost and confused. I can't read W's mind. Is the anger coming from disrespect, or does it just look like disrespect because she's angry...?

[sandi2]

I'm sure I have a WAW rather than a WW, but now I'm unsure if there is disrespect to address too.

That's odd, b/c her treatment toward you, says otherwise. She is much too angry and blames her unhappiness on you. You bent over backward trying to make things better, and then she blames you for making her lazy! She sees being out of this MR will bring her happiness, based on what she posted on SM. And, like WW's she wants to keep you as her Plan B, and that's why she will tell you she hasn't decided yet. The ring thing? It's just for show, and to keep the Pastor off her back. Sitting in church together, pretending to look like a family? Sorry, but it all aligns with hundreds of stories of WW's. BTW, the fact that you can't even tell when she is disrespectful, doesn't mean you can check off WW by her name.

Yes, you sound like a man with NGS. Instead of buying another book on MR's, I encourage you to buy the book that explains NGS. I think it could really help you with all your relationships.......but more especially, your MR.

So I get to this point:

Originally Posted by sandi2
Except for a couple of things I disagree with (if she's a wayward W) the same approach can be used.

What? Did it trip you when I said the same approach can be used, only a tougher version? Even in WW cases, the LBH still works on himself, GAL, detaches, stops going down cheeseless tunnels, drops the rope, etc.

With the new information in the passage quoted above - which says "the same approach can be used" - I wonder if ignoring it will encourage disrespect, and if so if drawing a line will help our situation. Of course I don't want to go the wrong way on this and certainly don't want to bring it up if it's a minor issue and part of her healing process, etc. I'm so lost and confused. I can't read W's mind. Is the anger coming from disrespect, or does it just look like disrespect because she's angry...?

Have you read Divorce Remedy? I don't know what you mean by "this new information".

The two of you are physically separated now, right? She didn't leave to work on the marital problems with you, right? The last thing she wants to do is work on the MR.

I had advice earlier in the thread that I should detach. With the new information in the passage quoted above - which says "the same approach can be used" - I wonder if ignoring it will encourage disrespect, and if so if drawing a line will help our situation

I'm not following what you mean. What would you ignore? Are you talking about your fear of detaching will make her disrespect you? No, that is a nice guy's fear.........and an excuse for not stepping back.

I can tell you that ignoring her bad behavior/treatment toward you will definitely encourage more disrespect. You need to stop taking her cr@p. The way she drove off without you, and how she treats you at church? That all screams disrespect.

You say you are sure she isn't wayward. I'll take a shot that you base that determination on the fact you see no evidence of her being in an affair. I hope you will brace yourself, b/c it won't be long until you hear she's "talking" to someone. She will claim they are just friends, but actually, he's been in the background. WW's have ulterior motives. She'll keep the full truth hidden from you, as long as possible.

If things don't work out for them, then she may assume she can just waltz back into the marital home on her own terms. How would you feel about it?

[JoeDredd]

Sandi, thanks for your honesty and straight talk. Your post wasn't what I was expecting at all, but I'm here for help and the truth, not to bury my head in the sand.

I have never considered my W to be anything but a WAW so your post came as a surprise to me. There's nothing in the previous responses to my thread that made me think she is actually a WW.

I have taken her words on face value, that I spent so much time at work she felt neglected, to the point where she is so unhappy that she only sees two options, misery or seperation. In some ways I'd love the cause to be something like menopause or perimenopause or MLC that she may snap out of suddenly, but none of those are the right explanation, and take responsibility away from me. We had a month, years ago, where she told me she didn't love me, but then afterwards told me she did love me, and which she would never explain. Then a few years later there was a two month period where she told me she didn't love me, but then decided it was misplaced dislike towards her stepmother. For all the years after, she told me every day that she loved me, until the day she said she wanted a divorce.

I've read 'The Divorce Remedy' but skipped most of the 'Common Dilemma' chapters as they didn't seem relevant to our situation. Likewise, I read the 'Sandi's rules' post but ignored the extra links to all the 'Newcomer LBH with a WW' threads because I didn't they were applicable either.

Of course I feel the disrespect, but I thought that was something I was meant to detach from. The rules talk about being cheerful, giving the W space, not arguing, not telling her how I feel about matters, not showing the hurt, and not believing a lot of what they say or do. Etc. It was only because you referred me to one of your WW threads that I saw the advice about standing up to disrespect. That was the 'new information' - "Huh? You mean we can address this?"

Knowing this I'll certainly tackle it with my W the next time we meet.

I'd like to know what the characteristics of a WAW are (as opposed to a WW, which you covered) so I can settle my own mind about the matter. Is there a list anywhere?

I will put my hands up to being a Nice Guy though. I'd appreciate it if you can let me know the name of the book you mentioned.

I totally agree that, whatever the case, I need to GAL, detach, stop all pursuit and drop the rope, and identify and give up on cheeseless tunnels.

I don't see that my W has any choice where to sit at church. Firstly it means we both get to sit with the kids, and she has at least been pretty 'fair' about sharing/not fighting over access. Also, practically no one else knows our situation. We're in a very Bible-believing Pentecostal church and most people there would view her behaviour in the negative. I think 'outing' her would make it so uncomfortable for her that she would leave the church, and therefore the positive influences it has. I will do everything I reasonably can to save our M, but I won't knowingly take a step that moves it towards D.

Regarding the ring, I think of the 'believe nothing they say and half of what they do' rule. Just yesterday I saw a photo from W's holiday with the kids and her mother in January, and she isn't wearing the ring. So I now know it came off when she went away and not when she came home, as I previously thought.

Without knowing more, I feel very sure that she's had more bad advice from her mother, probably along the lines of "If you're seperated you shouldn't wear your wedding ring" (just like whatever the "if you're marriage is in trouble, don't go to counselling" gem). I feel if I ask W about it, she'll be forced to take a position on it. It will crystalise in her mind and become a decision rather than just something she did, which she could change her mind about and reverse. I have seen her wearing a ring on her wedding finger several times on non-work days. I think if she were trying to fool the Pastor, she might accidentally leave it on after church, but it wouldn't be on her finger three days later. I do think wearing a different ring is some sly act of rebellion though.

Again, I appreciate the help. Rip me down anywhere I am off track.

[sandi2]

It was only because you referred me to one of your WW threads that I saw the advice about standing up to disrespect. That was the 'new information' - "Huh? You mean we can address this?"

Ok, thanks for explaining.

Knowing this I'll certainly tackle it with my W the next time we meet.

What do you mean that you'll tackle it with her?

I'd like to know what the characteristics of a WAW are (as opposed to a WW, which you covered) so I can settle my own mind about the matter. Is there a list anywhere?

IDK if there is a list on the board about the characteristics of a WAW. I don't remember making a WAW list. The main reason I talk about the WW, is b/c she not the same woman as a WAW. I'll copy part of MWD's description below:

Did you know that of the over one million marriages that will end in divorce this year, two thirds to three quarters of those divorces will be filed for by women? What is this so-called, "Walk-away Wife" syndrome all about?

In the early years of marriage, women are the relationship caretakers. They carefully monitor their relationships to make sure there is enough closeness and connection. If not, women will do what they can to try to fix things. If their husbands aren't responsive, women become extremely unhappy and start complaining about everything under the sun... things that need to get done around the house, responsibilities pertaining to the children, how free time is spent and so on. Unfortunately, when women complain, men generally retreat and the marriage deteriorates even more.

After years of trying unsuccessfully to improve things, a woman eventually surrenders and convinces herself that change isn't possible. She ends up believing there's absolutely nothing she can do because everything she's tried hasn't worked. That's when she begins to carefully map out the logistics of what she considers to be the inevitable, getting a divorce.

While she's planning her escape, she no longer tries to improve her relationship or modify her partner's behavior in any way. She resigns herself to living in silent desperation until "D Day." Unfortunately, her husband views his wife's silence as an indication that "everything is fine." After all, the "nagging" has ceased. That's why, when she finally breaks the news of the impending divorce, her shell-shocked partner replies, "I had no idea you were unhappy."

Then, even when her husband undergoes real and lasting changes, it's often too late. The same impenetrable wall that for years shielded her from pain, now prevents her from truly recognizing his genuine willingness to change. The relationship is in the danger zone.

Nowhere in the quote above mentions an affair. There is no deceit, manipulation, secret friendships, betrayal, cheating, etc. In fact, this WAW in MWD's article sounds sad that there is no hope in her husband changing, and she walks away.

There are similarities in the WAW & WW in the early years stage. However, the fork in the road, so to speak, is how her mindset is affected over time. How she responds to the unhappiness she feels due to loneliness, lack of attention, lack of intimacy, (whatever the issues in the MR). I won't get off into the cases where there are things like abuse, drug/alcohol addiction, incarceration, etc. Does she have a wall of protection around her heart, or is it filled with years of unresolved issues, unforgiveness, resentment and disrespect for her H? Will she escape the situation by leaving, or will she rebel? How does she conduct herself after she leaves? How does she treat her H when they interact?

Some WAW's leave with a broken heart and regrets. A WAW doesn't leave b/c she has a secret agenda, like pursuing a relationship with another man or to behave like Girls Gone Wild. In other words, there isn't a drastic change in how she conducts her life. She still holds the same core values, integrity, code of conduct, etc.

Now, back to tackling it when you meet with your W. There is no point in asking her if she is having an affair, or if she's looking. I have seen extremely few women who would admit to it the first time the H asked.

We're in a very Bible-believing Pentecostal church and most people there would view her behaviour in the negative. I think 'outing' her would make it so uncomfortable for her that she would leave the church, and therefore the positive influences it has.

I agree.

[JoeDredd]

Knowing this I'll certainly tackle it with my W the next time we meet.

What do you mean that you'll tackle it with her?

I meant that next time she disrespects me by acting like I'm not around, I will call out the behaviour. I will say it is unnecessary and inappropriate, and that she needs to acknowledge my presence in a timely manner. No additional conversation required, just the common courtesy of a simple hello.

[sandi2]

I meant that next time she disrespects me by acting like I'm not around, I will call out the behaviour. I will say it is unnecessary and inappropriate, and that she needs to acknowledge my presence in a timely manner. No additional conversation required, just the common courtesy of a simple hello.

Okay, and if she chooses not to acknowledge your presence? What then?