1st Anniversary of Limbo, Indecisive WAH (part 2)

[may22]

Hi Pommy,

Yesterday I lay in bed for a while after he had got up, and he came back into the room, sat on the bed and we started to talk. He then removed most of his clothes and got into bed with me. This is the bit I don’t get. He pulls me close, runs his hands all over me, strokes my skin in such a loving way, and that’s as far as it goes, and I’m not pushing it to go further as I don’t want to pressure him.

This is strange, I agree. My best guess is that in his mind he's "trying", seeing how he feels, and also trying to do something for you. A lot of similarities with my H a few months ago... I pulled your comment over from my thread to address it here.

^^^ This. I see exactly this in my sitch. My H has said he wants to turn those feelings back on but doesn’t know how. He has a psychological blockage to being intimate with me, and he doesn’t know how to overcome it. Of course he *could* do it but it feels wrong and emotionless. So he chooses not to. And I know he struggles with how I could flick a switch that so instantaneously propelled me from not wanting him near me, to wanting him morning, noon and night. The pain of rejection has been very real to him, and he also dealt with it for years before the EA. It sent him into a depression, he had no idea how to unlock me or reach me, and I had no idea why I felt like I did: ILYB... I think he feels this huge injustice that I chose to reject him, and then I clicked my fingers 12 months ago and expected him to be there to meet my every need.he feels that I controlled everything in that department for so long, and now I’m trying to control it again and it’s an issue for him.

Yes. 100% my H (or at least what he's said to me, I am not actually so sure what is real and what is the justification/excuse for the A that he's built up in his mind). But I do understand now after reading a lot that there is real pain in sexual rejection and especially for someone whose #1 LL is physical touch by a mile... I am sure it was much harder for him than I had imagined at the time. The controlling part too resonates with me. My coach said he can't just hop to it when I suddenly snap my fingers after all these years, his ego won't let him. Maybe the same with your H? And I do also think that we can't force these things, especially if control or perceived control is an issue in your R. He's scared that you're just doing this to lure him back and once he's firmly back in his pen, things will just go back to the way it was before. (My H has said as much to me. I think it is only recently that he's coming to understand that I have fundamentally changed my feelings about sex. I have said to him multiple times during R talks that I simply refuse to go back to the way things were. I am not that person anymore and my life is going to be different.)

Are you trying to get intimate with him or letting him lead the way? I’ve tried both approaches. I’ve completely left him alone and I’ve also let him know that I want him. I can’t say either has been successful. I really need some guidance here, but with him leaving within the next 2 weeks I feel like my time has run out.

I don't know if you've read my whole thread but about a year ago we went away for a weekend and I had a breakthrough in how I understood my role in the SSM and also was the first time I felt sexy and wanted sex in years. We did it but he felt really bad about it (now I know why!!) and said he wasn't ready, he didn't feel attracted to me like that, etc. I also fully apologized and took responsibility (for the first time) for the SSM. Then we went through about nine months of him saying he wasn't attracted to me and could never imagine having sex with me, but randomly in the middle of the night would wake me up for sex. it was always slam-bam-thank you maam (like 5 minutes or less) and afterwards he felt bad, I think because he felt guilty either for "cheating" on AP or me not knowing he was in a PA or what. He said at the time he felt bad because he didn't like feeling out of control and he would start it in a dreaming state and wasn't sure what was going on. At the time I thought maybe his subconscious had forgiven me for the SSM (he was saying it was something he could never, ever get over), but now who knows. I kind of went back and forth between welcoming these approaches and pretending to be asleep, especially as the fall progressed and we got closer to the last BD we always ended up with an R talk afterwards that wasn't positive, so I just tried to avoid it. We had one time where he initiated, I stopped him and asked if it was what he really wanted, he said yes, and then in the inevitable R talk the next day he said it "hadn't done much for my cause" because he didn't feel any major emotional connection during it. I asked him why he even wanted to? And he said because he was trying, and he also knew it was something I wanted. Maybe your H is along those same lines with the physical contact?

OK. Here's the other thing. Six months ago, after BD2 (disclosure of the A but only EA and lying about the length of time) I told him in an R talk that I had been thinking and reading a lot about sexual desire in women and I wanted to have a full and passionate sex life in my future, whether with him or someone else. At the time I said that I really thought it would get a reaction out of him and it didn't. He barely even responded. And I was honestly a little embarrassed I even said it and kind of wished I hadn't. Then the night of the final BD, he brought this up. He said he was really impressed that I had said that to him, especially the part about even if it was with someone else. (This is after he had told me about the full A, I'd asked him to leave, he refused, we had talked for several hours and it was all about our likely S/D.) I said to him that I wasn't satisfied with these random middle of the night encounters because they were unfulfilling for me sexually and that isn't what I wanted in a sexual relationship. And for whatever reason that made him turn some crazy corner, he said OK he could make it satisfying for me, I was totally taken aback and thought he was bluffing and so called his bluff and he wasn't bluffing. Then afterwards we ended up having this long talk where I shared a lot of stuff about my sexual desire and history that he didn't know and apparently floored him (he kept saying I was like a different person). And this (the information I'd shared with him, plus I'm sure the sex though he didn't say it) was one of the reasons he gave me the next day for putting the brakes on MO and wanting to go to MC and work together on whatever happened next between us.

Since then, we have been sleeping together off and on. I was very, very clear with him in the beginning that sleeping together didn't mean I had forgiven him or that I even wanted to R with him, but that I was interested in exploring my own sexuality and he was a convenient person to do this with. At first it was very hot and heavy and since then has quieted down somewhat. He still feels this disconnect that it isn't staring-into-each-others-eyes passionate ML, and I've said I don't imagine it would be because he's in love with someone else... while for me I'm not taking it as anything but me honestly better understanding myself in this arena. Plus it is fun (and hadn't been for a long time since I had lost my mojo) and so I'm enjoying that for what it is. I haven't ever really initiated though I can say/do things that I know will spark his interest and I'd say 75% of the time I do that it works.

Just interested to know if you have spoken about that period of your marriage and if you have apologised, or shown remorse (if that is how you feel) or validated how it made him feel? Whilst H and I have discussed how we both needed to feel during that time in our marriage, and what we didn’t feel and why, I don’t feel that I have really validated and apologised for my behaviours and perhaps I need to. I was reflecting in the gym last night that I have been so focused on his behaviours over the last 12 months, about his failings and reluctance to step back into the marriage, that perhaps I hadn’t given enough consideration for how I pushed him away from the marriage. What do I need to do to ask for his forgiveness?

Here's what I think on this-- I do think it is important that he understand you accept your own responsibilities for the issues in your R. I don't think you need to overdo it or beat yourself up about it too much. You did the best you could at the time and now you have a better understanding of yourself and your H. He may be resistant to hearing this because it is part of his narrative on why he disconnected or started the EA or whatever (that is very much the case with my H) and you can't force him to listen or understand or anything. So as long as you've apologized, I think that is enough. I'm on the fence about what it might do at this point if you haven't yet apologized, but if you feel you need to then I'd do it (maybe others will disagree). If you do, though, I'd keep it really focused on you-- how you've changed, etc-- and totally stay away from any words that could be interpreted as pursuit, like wanting to try again or whatever.

In the end-- you can't make him forgive you, or want to stay with you, or sleep with you. If detachment is your goal, then I would do whatever it takes to help you get there-- and yes, maybe kicking him out of the MBR is one of those things, and/or not letting him get so physically close. If doing that is him "trying" and he ends up through it feeling like well, I tried, I went back into the MBR, I cuddled her or whatever and I still didn't feel anything-- it is just another way for him to alleviate his guilt and get more secure in his decision. You might also think about Ester Perel and how she talks about desire-- we desire that which we do not have-- and the situation you're describing doesn't have a lot of those elements in there for him (you're telling him you want skin to skin contact, etc).

I guess if you ARE detached enough that it doesn't matter to you, then I agree there is no harm in the physical closeness. But I don't get that sense from you. The difference with where I was mentally when we started sleeping together again was that I didn't care about the emotional part-- the one night stand feeling was with me, too-- I was using him just as much as he might have been using me and that is all OK with me for right now. I told him it was all for educational purposes only and that was true. But just the fact that you declined because you didn't want to feel like a one night stand-- good for declining, BTW, sounds like the right call-- says to me that you are not in a place where sex would be healthy and I might also say that the other stuff is not healthy for you right now either. I worry a little that you're thinking if he only really understood that you're different now, you want him, it could all be fixed if only he'd get over this little hump of thinking he doesn't want to-- everything will be back on track. (I say this because I thought this, six months ago. Like the day I told him I wanted a passionate sex life no matter who it was with, in the back of my head I thought that might turn the corner for him. And maybe it did... but it wasn't until four months later.) This stuff all takes time. I have no idea if we are going to end up R or not in the end, and how long it will take to get there. But I do want to point out that in my sitch, it has been a year since I fully took responsibility for my part in the SSM and apologized wholeheartedly/and have validated about it consistently since. And I think he is only really understanding that I've changed in this area now. And also... I changed for ME, not for him. This is a big major shift in how I see myself and I'm really so, so grateful that I'm where I am now in this arena and it is 100% for me. No matter what happens with H, I'm so glad that this major thing has changed for me. Otherwise I very well could have gone the rest of my life without tapping back into the woman side of me rather than just seeing myself as a mom.

Also, the idea that you're running out of time... no, you're not. He might be MO but that doesn't mean anything in the long run. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't force anything and by thinking maybe if you just did X or Y in the next two week window he might change his mind... I just don't see how any good comes out of that. He is on his own timeline and it is outside of your control. I worry that anything you do now will be out of panic and fear that he's saying he's going, and will only be interpreted as pursuit and set you back. Can you just possibly let it all be?

(((POMMY))) you can do this. I know you can.