1st Anniversary of Limbo, Indecisive WAH (part 2)

[belleva]

My heart hurts for you. My heart hurts for everyone here. The pain is palpable. I am very new to all of this and still spinning so I am in no position to give advice. I just want to say my heart hurts for you. For a really long time I've felt like some alien took over my husband's body. This past week I've read stories on here from all of you and I see now that there must be a whole planet of these aliens out there because your H and mine and so many on here seem to have a similar script on perpetual replay. The ambivalence, the back and forth, one minute in and the next out. It totally messes with our minds and hearts doesn't it? You are strong and graceful and your head is held high. That comes through clearly in your posts. You are a goddess. (I wake up every day and say "be strong. be graceful. be the bigger person." Then I fail and fall and try to dust myself off and get up.) If he does go through with the rental it might give you both some space and time. And it might make everything a lot more real for him.

[Pommy99]

Oh Pommy, this is all so very, very difficult. And to have to work from home with him must be unbearable. Can you go to a coffee shop or something?

I chose to WFH because he was also home...I know that was not a great move perhaps! But thing is, we are fine in each other’s company. He’s fine because he’s emotionally detached and I’m fine because I’m not emotionally detached and enjoy being in the house together ! :-)

Here are my thoughts-- no matter what decision he makes, trial separation, real separation, stay-- it has GOT to be his decision. He can't outsource it to you or feel like you're forcing him into anything. Can you lock it up for the next week and give him the space he needs to make this decision? Meaning, probably not inviting him into the MBR tonight (I'm right that he leaves tomorrow?) and then just being as dark as possible on the phone this week-- nice and friendly when he reaches out but not initiating anything yourself-- all the rules Steve has laid out in any number of our threads?

ugh he did stay in MBR last night. He was hesitant because he said it complicates things and he doesn’t want to give me the wrong message. I said it was better as he was up at 5am and if he stayed in other room and used other bathroom he’d wake the kids. I agreed that I wouldn’t read anything into it. So we went to bed, he squeezed my hand and we said night, little kiss. I went back to my side and he pulled me over and wrapped his arms round me. And that’s how we fell asleep. Ugh. Ugh. It means nothing, right?

And then today he started texting about 11am, asking how I was, what time I got up etc.

I saw my IC tonight. She has asked me when am I going to accept that he doesn’t want to be in the M. How many times does he need to tell me? It’s been going on for a year. She says he offers nothing that a H should offer-no physical connection, no emotional support, he just a good friend. I can’t argue with that, but I am questioning whether she is right about me not accepting that he wants to leave. She says he has both feet out of the door but is hanging on with his little finger. I don’t know whether I am truly blind or in denial about this, or whether he is genuinely unsure.

That said, I am inclined to treat separation as an end to the M and not a trial. IC says with a trial sep we should be looking at counselling, ways to find out what’s workable, whereas he is not interested in any of that. She says I need to make the ground rules for separation, not him.

I’m really confused tbh. Or am I just in denial? As always, I’m trying to save this M so calling out a full separation with a view to D is not sitting well with me.

[may22]

Hi Pommy,

I was just skimming through my old posts from December-ish, when I was pretty sure he was on his way out the door, I asked him to wait until after Christmas. Through that whole month I went from panicky to finally ready to set all my boundaries and pretty sure his choice would be to MO, and/or encourage that (though I was really struggling as I didn't want to be the one to make that decision). And then we had the R talk where I assumed the outcome would be he was MO and instead had BD#3.

But the reason I bring it up is that I think I felt so similarly to how you feel right now-- panicky, not ready, not really accepting of what was going on. The posters here really, really helped me to get clarity on this and move out of denial and more into acceptance of what was really happening (H in love with someone else and wanted to be with her). I do think that was an important step for me, listening to what he was saying and realizing I can't just pretend or will it away. It TOTALLY $ucked, but it wasn't until I got this level of acceptance that I was able to start to detach and focus on what I can do and I can control, not on him.

(And FWIW, it was that night that he dropped BD#3 and I told him to go-- looked him in the eyes and for the first time meant it... and he said no. And the next morning was when he decided that my continued friendship and the girls were the two most important things to him, that whatever decision we made was one we had to make together, and that he wanted to see a MC together (I suggested the DC). None of this to suggest my M is on its way to success in any way, but I do think that my ability to drop the rope and tell him to go was one factor in where we are now.).

All that to say... I can't emphasize enough how important it is, I think, for you to listen to what he is telling you and do whatever you can in yourself to be able to accept that truth. It doesn't mean his feelings won't change. It doesn't mean logic won't prevail. It doesn't mean he will actually MO or S or D... and even if any of those things happen, it doesn't mean it is the end of your story together. But I don't think you'll be in a place to really assess the situation and be able to act without letting your emotions dictate until you can detach, at least to some level (and I don't think you're there yet).

I saw my IC tonight. She has asked me when am I going to accept that he doesn’t want to be in the M. How many times does he need to tell me? It’s been going on for a year. She says he offers nothing that a H should offer-no physical connection, no emotional support, he just a good friend. I can’t argue with that, but I am questioning whether she is right about me not accepting that he wants to leave. [b] She says he has both feet out of the door but is hanging on with his little finger. I don’t know whether I am truly blind or in denial about this, or whether he is genuinely unsure.[\b]

I'm not sure how you can't both be right here-- he has both feet out the door and is hanging on with his little finger, AND is unsure. If he wasn't unsure, he'd be gone-- both feet and all his fingers. Is your resistance to this illustration that you think he's hanging on with more than just a little finger? Can you explain more?

The hugging you to sleep doesn't necessarily mean he wants to recommit to the MR. It simply shows that he's a confused soul... and by pursuing him, sticking around the house when you could work elsewhere, telling him to sleep in the MBR... all of that may in fact be contributing to him moving away from you, not towards.

Last few questions:

What are your ground rules for a trial separation? Do you want that? Why are you inclined to treat S as an end to the M-- in your heart of hearts do you think it would stop him from going?

Have you re-read DR lately? Isn't there a section on trial Ses? I know that some experts do recommend regular counselling etc during a trial S, but IIRC MWD is more like regular contact is a positive and a set end date also to reassess (and ground rules for dating, etc), but doesn't necessarily dictate that you're in counselling.

And most importantly: Can you focus on what YOU want? what is best for Pommy that isn't reliant on any choice your H does or does not make?

(((POMMY))) You are going to be OK no matter what happens.

[wayfarer]

I have only two things to address on this mess of yours since my mess gets murkier and murkier every day, I'm feeling less wise and more confused as time goes on.

This interaction first:

I saw my IC tonight. She has asked me when am I going to accept that he doesn’t want to be in the M. How many times does he need to tell me? It’s been going on for a year. She says he offers nothing that a H should offer-no physical connection, no emotional support, he just a good friend. I can’t argue with that, but I am questioning whether she is right about me not accepting that he wants to leave. She says he has both feet out of the door but is hanging on with his little finger. I don’t know whether I am truly blind or in denial about this, or whether he is genuinely unsure.

I'm not sure how you can't both be right here-- he has both feet out the door and is hanging on with his little finger, AND is unsure. If he wasn't unsure, he'd be gone-- both feet and all his fingers. Is your resistance to this illustration that you think he's hanging on with more than just a little finger? Can you explain more?

I left my IC when she couldn't get on board with my goals, make sure you take some time to look back at recent past session and see if she has your interests in mind and not her own bias. The way I see it is your H hasn't remarried. He hasn't moved out of the country or disappeared with NC for a month. I find it odd that your IC would hear what you want and what's going on in the home and interpret that as you need to let go because he already has. I'm not saying she's wrong. I think you do need to let go. But not why she stated. IMO you need to let go because you need to let go. Whether he told you he wants out. Whether he's gone. Whether he's saying he needs a few more months to figure things out. You just need to let go. Prepare for the worst hope for the best. Dropping the rope has merit to it. It's freeing as h3ll to just accept that this is the direction things are going and what will be will be. Honestly you need to let go because it's what's best for your mental health, and for both you and H to move forward in this stand off.

The other thing I want to address that May said, is he's in there with a little finger. If he wasn't still hanging on by a thread he wouldn't be there. There is also merit to if they want to be gone they'd be gone. It's so true. My bff's H told me that the day my H said he was going. They went through this twice once as a full blown PA in their early 20s and an EA when they were expecting their very unexpected 5th child. They are one of the strongest couples I know now. And he's been so open and honest with me through this. He told me if our marriage was so bad, if I was so awful, if he truly saw no other option than to run from me and us he'd already be gone. That I have been and will continue to be an option no matter what is coming out of his mouth as long as he's still sleeping under the same roof. Actions vs words is huge at this time in our lives. I trust what my H does far more than I trust what he's saying. It's right in Sandi's rules.

You and IC can both be right here like May said. But you need to sort through YOUR truth here and act on that. As an IC she's gotta challenge you a bit especially if you look like you need it. But in the end all of this has to be for you and if you aren't ready to let go of the marriage that's perfectly fine. But you have to get to a place to be ready to let him go because if you keep trying to cling to what ever scraps of himself he's willing to offer you you are just going to remain in this kind of pain and he's going to keep running.

I'm also going to piggy back on what May said here about being secure in just letting him physically leave. Things with us took a small turn the day he told me he was going to go, and I barely reacted thanks to Steve85's help. Things took a huge turn when we had that lovely little heart to heart and talked about what this future he wants looked like. When he brought up that OW was likely moving in in June I simply said makes sense. We moved on. And before that part of the conversation got too far away I interrupted him and asked him if I should start bringing boxes home from work or if he is going to. He knows I've worked out the expenses hence our huge fight about money. He knows I'm ready. You wanna go, go. Like May I'm not saying we're on our way to recovery here. Far, far from it. He still hasn't even said he's chosen the MR or me, or our family or our life. He's only said he's unsure. But 2 months ago he said he didn't love me any more and there was nothing left in the MR for him. Something with these WS just seems to click when you aren't afraid any more. Its like they smell fear. The power shifts in these little moments and those are the baby steps to walking out of this whole a person and maybe even whole as a couple. You have to let go of the fear, my dear Pommy. No matter what you will still be amazing Pommy in the end.

[cardinal]

(((Pommy))) My H is not giving the kind of seemingly mixed messages yours is, but I feel like I'm near the same place as you, in that I'm having a hard time with next-level detaching/dropping the rope, even though I know it's the right thing to do for me, and I want to do it. May and WF's advice here seems spot on to me, and I'm taking it to heart myself, trying to move in that direction, even though I don't feel like I'm making much progress right now. This -->

All that to say... I can't emphasize enough how important it is, I think, for you to listen to what he is telling you and do whatever you can in yourself to be able to accept that truth. It doesn't mean his feelings won't change. It doesn't mean logic won't prevail. It doesn't mean he will actually MO or S or D... and even if any of those things happen, it doesn't mean it is the end of your story together. But I don't think you'll be in a place to really assess the situation and be able to act without letting your emotions dictate until you can detach, at least to some level (and I don't think you're there yet).

This comment seems more about me now, and I'm rambling. Sorry! I don't know what I'm saying, Pommy. Just that I empathize with you and also only have a sliver of an idea how hard it is in your particular sitch. I do think it could help to work elsewhere sometimes, both for your own progress toward detaching and for giving your H space. I sometimes go back and forth between wanting to be home because I want to be there, period, regardless of where H is, but I also feel myself thinking sometimes if he's around, oh, he's here and he's in a good mood, I don't want to miss this. And I sometimes make myself go out anyway. Whatever you feel is helping YOU the most, I suppose. It's all hard.

[Pommy99]

Oh Pommy. I hate this kind of pain. You are basically a yoyo on a roller coaster. Too many ups and downs. I hope you can re-center yourself. This is just the worst though. My husband is planning on exiting also and it is also painful.

For me, the constant rejection hurt so much. And then after a while, I got tired of it. I got tired of my feelings depending on whether he wanted me or not. I just let it start bouncing off me. I still hurt. I'm still sad. But I keep putting his problems back on him.

What can we do to support you?

OG thank you. I know you are going through the same pains as me. I am impressed by how strong and focused you are being. The rejection does hurt but I know I am worth far more than what he values me at. I just forget to tell myself that sometimes!

This past week I've read stories on here from all of you and I see now that there must be a whole planet of these aliens out there because your H and mine and so many on here seem to have a similar script on perpetual replay. The ambivalence, the back and forth, one minute in and the next out. It totally messes with our minds and hearts doesn't it?

Hi Belleva , I’m so sorry you are going through a bad time. I like your reference to a ‘script on perpetual replay’. It’ is like a piece of computer code stuck in a loop. Their behaviour is random and unpredictable but in a logical and scriptable way. I’m wondering if they are robots more than aliens!

I'm not sure how you can't both be right here-- he has both feet out the door and is hanging on with his little finger, AND is unsure. If he wasn't unsure, he'd be gone-- both feet and all his fingers. Is your resistance to this illustration that you think he's hanging on with more than just a little finger? Can you explain more?

yes I think my resistance was that I felt he was clinging by more than just a finger. But maybe a good analogy would be someone who is about to do their first parachute jump out of a plane. They peer over the edge a little, then step back. Then they lean out a little further, and step back. And bit by bit they get closer to making the jump, until finally they drop their arms and out they go. I think he is that parachutist, and he is peering over edge, but he’s still filled with fear and doubt that this is a safe thing to do. Maybe IC sees him as being closer to the jump than I can see or admit.


I am sooo tired tonight that I will reply to your other Qs May, and Wayfarers comments tomorrow.

I will just finish off by saying how AWESOME you all are at keeping me grounded, teaching me not to overthink, or over analyse, and reminding me of the things I should be doing (and not doing). It’s like having my own personal multi-pack of ICs :-)) ....and I love that, so thank you everyone xx

[Pommy99]

What are your ground rules for a trial separation? Do you want that? Why are you inclined to treat S as an end to the M-- in your heart of hearts do you think it would stop him from going?

I don't know if I want a trial S - it's more limbo. Do I want more limbo? Should my mindset be that this is S with the expectation that it might end in D, to keep detaching, and see what happens? I *think* my ground rules would be no dating. If he's dating then he's not looking in towards the marriage, but rather that he's looking to see if he can make it on his own. To me a trial would be "let's take a step back and re-evaluate how we really feel about the M and if we want to make it work". From what he says, this is where his head is at too. The question is whether I believe him, or whether he is using trial S to soften the blow/have a safety net. He believes that he is too close to the problem, and that he wont know if he wants me or misses me until he's stepped away from it, and that maybe all it will take is the reality of me not being there to realise what he's losing, and what he wants.

I see S as an end to the M because it creates more distance - as if there wasn't enough already! I feel S - and not trial S - might help me draw a line under it.

I left my IC when she couldn't get on board with my goals, make sure you take some time to look back at recent past session and see if she has your interests in mind and not her own bias. I find it odd that your IC would hear what you want and what's going on in the home and interpret that as you need to let go because he already has. I'm not saying she's wrong. I think you do need to let go. But not why she stated. IMO you need to let go because you need to let go.

IC sees all my focus being on H, what H wants, never what I want. I think she is trying to challenge me with the thought that he doesn't want to be in the M, that he doesn't want to act like a H, and it's been going on for a year. That Pommy needs to identify what Pommy wants and take steps to get it. In this case, it's not coming from inside the marriage, so move on, work on myself and look towards achieving my goals without relying on him to be part of the plan. She is telling me to use the time of S to work on this, so, not so much closing the door on him and filing for D, but to work on me, without the expectation that he will come back.

I'm also going to piggy back on what May said here about being secure in just letting him physically leave.

I have been insecure about him leaving but I do know now that it needs to happen and I'm not so afraid. I've not spoken to him since he left Tues 6am (it's now Thursday luinchtime) and this hasn't bothered me so much, but he has sent me texts morning, noon and night. I haven't initiated any contact or texts - only replying to the ones he sent. And none of them are critical or logistical in nature - it's things like how's your day, did you have a nice time last night, it's snowing in the city, etc etc. This really frustrates me - I want him to stop this and I think it will be easier once he moves out - this will need to be a S boundary. I find it hard to let go when he's there every couple of hours with a text msg. I guess these are the "scraps of himself" that he keeps offering, and it's not good enough anymore

[Pommy99]

A fine start to the weekend...H told the children last night that he is moving out. This is all so real now. I feel physically sick. They took it remarkably well, although he was VERY vague and made it sound like he was just having time out for a couple of weeks and would then be back. He then suggested we all have a family day out today. WTF!!! I just pulled a face at him to let him know he was a hideous jerk of the highest order.

[KitCat]

A fine start to the weekend...H told the children last night that he is moving out. This is all so real now. I feel physically sick. They took it remarkably well, although he was VERY vague and made it sound like he was just having time out for a couple of weeks and would then be back. He then suggested we all have a family day out today. WTF!!! I just pulled a face at him to let him know he was a hideous jerk of the highest order.

Well that is certainly pulling the rug out from someone... I can see your struggle to act as if while spending the day with him as a family unit.

I like what you wrote about your IC statements about what Pommy wants/needs. Maybe if YOU need him to text less. Then just don't respond unless they are relevant to an urgent matter or the kids. Let him tell you about his day and the snow... and just let it go? Unless you are doing that already? Stop replying when it isn't important and I think he will notice. Now be prepped for anger but I learned in my sitch long ago that the anger they come back with is to cover their confusion.

I hope for you a very nice day.

[may22]

Hi Pommy,

Just wanted to send you good vibes and I'm thinking of you. I'm so sorry... I hope you are doing okay. Remember, you were saying you thought it was a good thing for him to MO so that you both could have some space to get some clarity... take this for what it is and try to focus on all the positives for you personally that this could bring. Space, clarity, time... anything else? I made a whole long list of all the good things that would come out of H moving out or into the basement and kept focusing on them all of December/January... I think it really helped me and maybe it could help you too?

Did you end up having a family day? remember, you are under no obligation to do anything. If you'd prefer the time to yourself to go get a mani/pedi or just be alone... do it. You don't need to assuage his guilt in any way.

Anyway, I hope you doing OK. You are strong and amazing and don't need him to be happy or whole... he is the one who is f**ed up and has to get his $hit together. Hopefully this helps him to do so.

xx M