So.... I know Yail has already covered this but I did want to pipe in too... (a) I do think when our Hs are acting like children it is easy to treat them like children. But if my H said to me "I can't understand you when you mumble" (actually if anyone said that to me) I would feel a little annoyed. And, (b) I don't think there is ever a downside to not responding with anger in the heat of the moment. If you want to go back and talk about it later on if you missed the opportunity to validate in the moment (assuming there is an appropriate time) then, as Yail says, being truly curious about why he would feel unappreciated-- if that is indeed what he was mumbling-- would probably be the best way to address it. If you're just looking for an opportunity to get some digs in on his current behavior, I would skip it. What's the use?
Oh may. You’re absolutely right. He was being childish and I was too. Eventho I was smiling and saying it jokingly, I guess my intention has a bit of meanness to it. Honestly I’ve lost so much respect for him as a man, and for him to take little jabs at me here and there and can’t even own up to it, it pisses me off sometimes. So I agree, I should not bring it up to get some digs in on his current behavior. I need to be the adult here.
Originally Posted by may22
To me, I agree that you handled this well (not knowing the tone of voice or whatever though). He acted irrationally, you responded in a rational and normal way, then you both let it drop. He probably feels a little stupid and it was nice of you not to rub it in. And yes, he probably doesn't want you to see all that stuff right now because he is hiding a $hit-ton of information from you! Right? I would just let this go about the hotels. What is the point in hammering any of this in?
Again, I need to be the adult here as well. I don’t want to be misunderstood as someone who’s trying to stalk his whereabouts, but I don’t need to prove myself on this. I do get tired of his mis-remembering things or just straight out forgetting things that have happened. Like I’m the only who’s living this reality. Ugh. I guess it goes to the WAH’s confused mind.
Originally Posted by may22
i think there is a difference between walking on eggshells-- where you're consciously trying to avoid doing or saying anything to antagonize or upset your H-- and not saying that stuff because ... who cares? It doesn't bother you. It might seem the same from the outside-- wooba let his d*ckish behavior slide-- but I do think there is a big difference when it comes from fear and when it comes from detachment. You don't need to repress your feelings, but you can say what you think without spoiling for a fight.
This is very helpful to me. Thank you for pointing out the difference. I will have to think about this over and over again. And I love how you would just tell your H to stop being an a**. Lol! I will have to learn that. That will be my focus now, distinguish the walking on eggshells vs detaching and not taking sh1t!!!
Wooba, to be honest, all this above was one of my biggest 180s. I first started to own my own responsibility for all this mess (not that I'm responsible for his A, but my piece of the SSM and our fights) back in February, and then read DR and the 7 principles in April or so. I really spent some time thinking about my own behavior and role in our arguments. I think I first went to the eggshells (and maybe that is a necessary step in all of this) but it was amazing to see how changing my own responses would change the whole scenario and avoid a giant fight.
I have *totally* been where you are. I know exactly how you feel. And I'm not really conflict avoidant so I would dish it right back and then keep holding onto my grudges for a long time. it wasn't pretty.
The only other thing I would recommend for reframing where you are... I don't think it helps, necessarily, to think of it like you need to be the adult in the situation (with the unspoken "in contrast to H"). You are an adult, full stop. So is he, no matter how he is acting, and it isn't your job to teach him a lesson or correct all his crazy reconstructions of your history. Just do the best you can to try not to let his crazy get to you.
Hang in there. On the talk... I don't have a fast answer but will think more for you. The only recommendations I would make would be that if you want to tell him the appreciation piece, I would start out by asking him how he feels and see what he says before you go there. If you really want him to feel heard, you first need to let him speak-- you don't want to jump to conclusions or put words in his mouth. Also, only say those things if you're doing it for you, not because you hope for a certain response from him. if you feel these are things you really need to get across to him right now, and future wooba will regret not being authentic in this case, then do it. But my spidey sense says that you might not hear what you want to hear if you initiate this conversation and you just need to be prepared for that. Is there a reason to do it on valentine's day weekend? or can you sit with this desire to have this talk for a bit and see how you feel in a week?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I am contemplating whether to invite H out for V day weekend. Sort of want to use it as an opportunity to say my piece and just be heard.
Pressure, pressure, pressure on a date that is all about "love" (or candy, your pick). I am still of the mind that while we all have so much we want to say in our sitch, often the best thing to do is sit tight until you have a person who is truly listening. Speaking now sounds like it might be only to make YOU feel better, not to fix anything. And that's what we are here for! So you can say all those things on your mind.
Originally Posted by wooba
“Whatever the future holds, I want you to find peace and happiness with or without me.”
I'll be blunt:
NO
Originally Posted by wooba
Or maybe I should just keep my mouth shut???
When in doubt (as we always, constantly are) this is the safest option.
Originally Posted by wooba
And then I think about where we would go. To a bar? A nice restaurant? I’d like to have a nice glass of wine. But I should probably not invite an alcoholic to have a drink with me? But why does it matter he’s going to drink anyway.
may- gosh. It still amazes me that I’m almost 6 months in and I feel like I’m still figuring out more and more about myself and our M prior to BD everyday. I really have been through tremendous growth. This sitch is terrible yet such a blessing at the same time. Thank you for the reminder that I am an adult, and I just need to let him be his version of an adult too.
Yail- Ha!! Thank you for your bluntness. I guess I’ll just have to go back to writing those letters that will never get sent out. Yes....I realized that I’d be doing this just to get things off my chest mostly. Which is not a good reason to say anything to someone who probably wouldn’t be able to really hear my message. and no, I’m not in al-anon. The group here in this country is like an hour away from me so there’s a bit of a barrier there. But I also have been putting it off honestly.
Ok. No V day planning with H no more. Scratch that idea. I am getting my hair done though so I’m really excited about that.
Another thing I was thinking about fear/walking on eggshells/detachment- I think what happened over the weekend was a good practice. I didn’t stay quiet because of fear. I was just mad at myself for not saying anything. So maybe that’s an improvement on my part. On one hand it’s my usual response where I was ruminating on my feelings again, but it wasn’t a “I wanted to say xxx but I didn’t want to create conflict.” Now I just need to work on not even being mad at him or myself anymore.
Here’s a short story I read today that I’d like to share with everyone.
It was autumn. Red foliage fluttered in the zen garden. Little monk asked Master, “These leaves are so beautiful, but why do they fall?”
Master smiled. “Winter is coming, the tree can’t hold on to so many leaves, so it must choose. The tree doesn’t give up, so it must choose to let go.”
It was winter. Little monk saw elder monks turning over the cisterns one by one. He asked Master, “There’s still good water in many of them, why must we pour the water out?
Master smiled. “Because when the water freezes, it will crack the tanks. To save them for the future, we should unload them now.”
A blizzard came, sweeping piles of thick snow onto the junipers. Master asked the little monk to help him tip the potted saplings over. The little monk was confused. “Aren’t saplings supposed to stand straight? Why lie them down?”
Master replied, “Don’t you see how the snow is weighing them down? By laying them down, we are protecting them. We give them a rest, so they may stand after the snow.”
The winter was harsh and long, and with a recession, the temple’s offering box was running empty. Even the little monk was looking to the Master anxiously.
Master said to the little monk, “Have you been eating or wearing less?” “Go see for yourself, how many clothes are there in the closet? How many piles of firewood are there in the shed? How many bags of potatoes are there in the barn? Stop thinking about what we don’t have, and think about what we do have; the hard times will pass, and spring will come. You need to let go of your worries, by being more mindful of what you have. This will calm your heart.”
Spring finally arrived, and the thawing snow made for even more blossoms than last year. Worshippers returned, and the offering box was full again. It was then that Master set off on a very long journey. Little monk ran up to him at the mountain gate. “Master! When you are gone, what are we to do?”
Master smiled and waved his hand. “You have already learned how to let go, to unload, to rest up and to calm down. Why should I not be rest assured?”
Letting go is not rejection. It’s not indulging and it’s not abandonment. it’s not giving up.
If you’ve learned to pick up, you must also learn to put down.
If you’ve learned to acquire, you must also learn to unload.
If you’ve learned to strive, you must also learn to rest.
If you’ve learned to care, you must also learn to trust.
If you’ve learned to hold on, you must also learn to let go.
Wooba, OK! You do you! As long as you are cool with it and aren't doing it out of a desire to keep connected or show your value or whatever. Do you fold it too??? And that time really, truly couldn't be better spent watching a Grey's Anatomy rerun eating chips and guacamole? On the not listening to the work rant stuff, that is harder. Does it make you feel badly when you have to listen to it? Can you identify what about that makes you feel powerless and act on those smaller things without stopping listening to him entirely?
Moving this here so I don’t hijack someone else’s thread.
I do fold it! I sometimes put it away or I just leave on his side of the bed. Oh yes I do put on Netflix while folding laundry...last night I watched a bit of the Irishman. That would be a lot of laundry folding because the movie is 3+ hrs long lol.
The work ranting doesn’t make me feel bad. It’s more like...oh here we go again. Before I would secretly blame him for not being able to change his attitude about his job. Ex it doesn’t have to be that bad if you don’t look at it that way. Why can’t you get past the little things. (I understand I cannot change how he feels about his job, so I never tell him these things) But I have told him that we will be fine if he wants to do something else that doesn’t make as much, as long as he’s not miserable. We will be fine, we don’t need that much to live a decent life. But he is prideful and doesn’t want to settle for less. Listening to him doesn’t make me feel powerless, I guess I just question whether I want to be his emotional dump. On one hand I feel for him, I might be the only person he could really talk to about all his work stuff, but I really don’t see myself as his wife anymore. I don’t know how to say it....maybe the best way to describe is that our partnership has ended. Before when we were partners, I listened and validated and would give him my opinion on his work and he valued that. But now I’m just a listener. Sometimes I validate. But mostly I just want him to go away if he’s going to insert negative energy into my life. So that’s what I struggle with, being there for him but with a slight resentment questioning why I’m doing it when he’s clearly not there for me in any way.
I do fold it! I sometimes put it away or I just leave on his side of the bed. Oh yes I do put on Netflix while folding laundry...last night I watched a bit of the Irishman. That would be a lot of laundry folding because the movie is 3+ hrs long lol.
I still do his laundry too. For a plethora of reasons. And I've been guilted about it IRL. I get the same thing about feeding him too, but since he handles at least half the dinners weekly including me in that mix I just can't be the person who only makes enough food for 3 out of spite. He spent months not eating with us. If this is who he is now I'm not getting in the way of him eating a meal with our girls for pride. But as to the laundry the fact is we have 4 adult size humans in the house it's more work for me to dig out all his things. Next I do it on Sundays. He's with us on Sundays, and he'll sit in the living room and fold with me. He also will do a load midweek or on a Friday night when I'm out and he's home. I'm not entirely sure what that's about. But it's among his many new odd behaviors. Next and this may go to May's doing something petty/childish just for poops and giggles. I know that's not on this thread but I know you saw it. I get some serious sick satisfaction out of the fact that OW is getting a whiff of that mountain spring fabric softener when she's undressing him. She's not stupid not even grown men have laundry that smells the way it does when a wife has done it. She knows d@mn well that isn't him doing that laundry. I want her to get an olfactory memory of me every single time she's that close. I want her to think about me folding those underwear he's wearing. And his clothes hanging next to mine in the closet. I have very very thick curly hair. OW has stick straight hair. I may or may not make sure my hair ends up on just about everything of his....lol.
Originally Posted by wooba
The work ranting doesn’t make me feel bad. It’s more like...oh here we go again. Before I would secretly blame him for not being able to change his attitude about his job. Ex it doesn’t have to be that bad if you don’t look at it that way. Why can’t you get past the little things. (I understand I cannot change how he feels about his job, so I never tell him these things) But I have told him that we will be fine if he wants to do something else that doesn’t make as much, as long as he’s not miserable. We will be fine, we don’t need that much to live a decent life. But he is prideful and doesn’t want to settle for less.
When I was deep in my depression I was exactly like this. H had repeatedly encouraged me to leave, but I had the good insurance, he made the money. That's how we worked it out. I couldn't leave until I could make about as much money and still have the good insurance. I had sent resumes out for a year before I got called for interviews. During the depression and while battling my grief that was a really hard pill to swallow, and I'm sure H was just as sick of hearing about it as you are even if we were in a better way then. A lot of my angst wasn't just pride it was literally being stuck and forcing myself to keep moving to be unstuck depressed and repeatedly hitting walls to get out made it seem insurmountable. I eventually got out and got in a new position with equal pay and equal benefits with a work load that feels like a vacation, but it took a lot to get me here. I say this just so you can understand that maybe it isn't all pride. Maybe he's struggling to take the steps to make the change. Not that we should feel sorry for him but maybe that can help you understand where he's coming from a little better.
Originally Posted by wooba
Listening to him doesn’t make me feel powerless, I guess I just question whether I want to be his emotional dump. On one hand I feel for him, I might be the only person he could really talk to about all his work stuff, but I really don’t see myself as his wife anymore. I don’t know how to say it....maybe the best way to describe is that our partnership has ended. Before when we were partners, I listened and validated and would give him my opinion on his work and he valued that. But now I’m just a listener. Sometimes I validate. But mostly I just want him to go away if he’s going to insert negative energy into my life. So that’s what I struggle with, being there for him but with a slight resentment questioning why I’m doing it when he’s clearly not there for me in any way.
I don't have much to offer with this. It sounds like you know where you stand on this, and maybe just haven't found the way to appropriately articulate it to your Ex. But this really gave me something to think about. And honestly leaves me confused. I wouldn't let H in on anything until my incident with D17 which ended in a weird I'm always here to listen thing from him. And he still comes to me first when something really upsets him, not OW. He's literally called me on the way to see her to dump on me. Which prior to reading this made me feel like I had a one up on her, but now I'm realizing he has to dump on me. Can't keep up the fantasy if you start bringing in real life worries, anger, and disappointment about the mundane into the bubble. And if he doesn't see me as his partner, if there's nothing left in this MR for him why should I take on that burden even if he's offering to reciprocate....hmmmm. You got me thinking wooba.
Yes....I realized that I’d be doing this just to get things off my chest mostly. Which is not a good reason to say anything to someone who probably wouldn’t be able to really hear my message. and no, I’m not in al-anon. The group here in this country is like an hour away from me so there’s a bit of a barrier there. But I also have been putting it off honestly.