Yeah this is something LBS's often have to face. Their WAS can feel "bad" and even get very depressed and cry and such about the wreckage they've caused, but they still feel JUSTIFIED. They've created a narrative in their head to justify their actions. They've laid the blame on the LBS's doorstep. The LBS makes them unhappy, the LBS should have done more, the LBS drove them into the arms of another person, blah blah blah. This is why we preach detachment. Remove yourself from the equation. Be as "gone" as possible. Let him learn to miss you, and learn that YOU are not responsible for his demons, HE is. If and when he gets there, THEN the guilt will come. But it could be way down the road.
I don’t even know what kind of story H has in his mind. He’s actually never said too much about blaming things on me. He’s told me very little about his thoughts on anything since BD. This reminds me of the first time he dropped the D word 3 months ago, I asked him what’s been going through his head while I’ve given him the space he’s asked. He refused to tell me. I said you want to divorce but you can’t even tell me why?? Then he said “you took your ring off, that was the last hope I had” and “you want to move on and find another guy” (both complete bs) and nothing about his own reflections.
The lack of guilt also reminded me that this is VERY far from over.....I remember the vets saying that the end is near when the WAS starts to realize the damage that they’ve done and feel guilty about it....in my mind I was sure he was feeling guilty. So that was a shock to me.
Hesable- my H IS an alcoholic. Functioning alcoholic maybe, but I’ve decided to stop calling him that because the “functioning” part seems to be justifying the alcoholic part. And also my H is clearly of functioning. He’s still going to work fine maybe, but other than work his has blown up the rest of his life.
But one thing I think will help you to have less resentment is to have more compassion toward your H. I know it is not easy to feel that way toward somebody who’s doing all these things to destroy our family. But they are a wreck right now. They are going through something major even though we can’t understand it. What they’re doing seems so unforgivable at the moment, but sooner or later you must forgive to let go of the resentment and hate for you own good.
The lack of guilt also reminded me that this is VERY far from over.....I remember the vets saying that the end is near when the WAS starts to realize the damage that they’ve done and feel guilty about it....in my mind I was sure he was feeling guilty. So that was a shock to me.
Just a quick note on that. Something you need to worry about that others on here don't is that guilt and shame when it starts will very very likely lead to a shame spiral for your alcoholic. He will drink even more to numb the pain from the shame of blowing everything up, and then feel ashamed for drinking like that and drink more, and so on. Unfortunately for you, there's two levels of other side of this. Even if he wakes up from his crisis he HAS to address his addiction or there's no coming back from this for either of you. I'm not saying this to make you lose hope. I'm saying this so you can prepare yourself that things may get worse before they get better.
Thank you wayfarer. I’m not losing hope but I am prepared for the worst. I know R or not, he’d have to address his drinking problems first and foremost. Because I wouldn’t want him back the way that he is.
Is it weird that I’m the one who wants to say ILYBNILWY???
H came home and stayed for probably the longest period he has since BD. He spent the whole day with us. He was present and engaged throughout. Even stayed overnight. Didn’t rush to leave the next morning.
I had a plethora of mixed feelings. Relief. Happiness. Aloofness. Confusion. Anger. Resentment. Kept them all in check though.
Two notable things happened-
1. H muttered something really quick to me but I missed it. I heard something along the lines like “you don’t appreciate xxx” or “you’re unappreciative of xxx”....I said what? I can’t understand you when you mumble. He didn’t clarify further and just laughed it off and walked away. Afterwards I kept thinking about what in the world he could have possible accused me of being appreciative of.....and I got kind of mad at myself for letting that slide. I should’ve pressed it. That’s a 180 I really need to work on because I’ve always been a conflict avoider. And usually it takes awhile for a convo like that to hit me and then I think “hey! WTH was he talking about?” But by the time I have a retort it usually is too late. I wanted to say, what do you think I should be appreciative of? The fact that you walked away from our family? Or you disregarded the vows that you made? Or that you’ve become the pinnacle of everything you despise?
2. I gave S10 a scratch paper to work on math. And H saw the paper(which had old hotel booking info printed on there) and took it to me and said why am I receiving things like this about his trips. I said uh that’s really old, it’s from like two years ago. He said doesn’t matter, why am I getting this. I said because I BOOKED IT FOR YOU on my account. (He forgot he’d taken that trip) And just like above, I let it slide again!! Few mins later I was like wtf just happened? Was he trying to accuse me of keeping track of the details of his trips? Like I’m not supposed to see which hotels he’s staying at? What is he trying to hide from me??
Anyways. My conclusion is that I need to be more of a bada$$ b*tch than a make-nice conflict avoider. Hopefully I’m not just slow to be offended by things. Lol.
Wooba, I may be missing some context on your sitch, as I'm only responding to your most recent post. Feel free to let me know if I've missed something about your dynamic.
In point 1, I think you put him on the defensive. He shared a thought (very, very poorly) that was on his mind. Absolutely agree he likely did it in a passive aggressive or non-committal way. But you then bounced it back in a bit of an accusatory way instead recognizing (validating) the fact he had a thought. You blamed him for mumbling. What if you had instead simply very calmly and curiously said, "I didn't catch that?" or even, "sorry, I didn't hear you".
I often find myself saying to folks, "sorry?" when I don't hear what they say. Of course I'm not really "sorry" in an apologetic way, but it's a prompt. In this case I can sense your frustration in his mumbling, so saying "sorry" may feel like you're conceding something to him. The wording is up to you.
And on point 2, why does it matter that you let it slide? I'd say that's the right move. Let H stew in his mis-aimed frustration. He was wrong but you don't need to continue to point it out to him. He got it when you clarified. And then he was still frustrated because he was wrong.
In these two instances I would not call you conflict-avoidant. Perhaps in other areas I am not caught up on. But sometimes it's best to let them stew in their own anger and not engage or try to take ownership for it. It's not your deal.
Thank you Yail. I really appreciate your perspective.
After doing some more thinking, I kind of share the same thoughts as you. Maybe it’s not so bad that I let it slide. I think the DB way is like you said, let H stew in his own anger and for me to not engage.
The reason I’m sensitive about not avoiding conflict is because I think it contributed to the build up that lead up to BD. Not that BD could have been “avoided”, but I know on my part I held a lot of resentment and frustration back due to fear. I never wanted to start an argument. I disguised myself as if I’m in a state of zen when honestly in the back of my head I had all these unexpressed feelings. Now I know that it wasn’t healthy, so I don’t want to fall back on the same pattern again. But it kind of clashes with DB (correct me if I’m wrong??) so I’m not sure how to go about this.
So the first point- if it happens again I am not sure what I would do still. On one hand I understand the importance of validating, but I also don’t want him to victimize himself. If his truth is that he feels “unappreciated,” should I not counter with facts to rebuke him? I think it’s totally wild that he feels unappreciated because I regular express my appreciation for him. And it goes back to everything else in our relationship- he feels like I don’t show him affection enough, he feels like I don’t love him. Although I know that I definitely have things I need to work on (showing affection, touching him more), I think everything stems from his low self-esteem. And I feel like no matter what I do, I’m always coming up short. It’s never enough for him - he’d always feel like he’s not valued.
But as I am typing this, I’m realizing that I probably can’t debate his feeling. It would go back to the same loop we always had when we argued prior to BD.....
The most important thing about validating is that it is not condoning behavior and it is not agreeing. It is recognizing that the other person - as an autonomous, full being - has the right to say something and have their own thoughts.
So in asking your H "I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said" you are simply acknowledging that he has something to say. Not that you agree or disagree. But that you see him as a person with independent thought that is worthy of pause and listening.
One of the top examples of validating is saying something along the lines of "Oh, I see how you could see things that way". And that's a misleading example, because it sounds like you are saying you understand their perspective from a personal standpoint. But what is actually being said is, "I see and recognize that you have this perspective". It's a subtle difference.
****** And I completely hear you with your thoughts on not engaging vs engaging. That too is a subtle difference and is even harder to determine when you're "in it". It's much easier when you talk about someone else's sitch.
I struggled too with the fact that I avoided/hid from all conflict around the time of BD, and even some times in our R when it was good. This lead to me not saying everything on my mind during the tumultuous days. BUT I honestly don't think me speaking would have changed anything. It very likely would have only lead to fights and hurtful things said.
You said it yourself - you don't think BD could have been avoided. Remember that point, because you're right.
And there's a difference between not being an engaged partner when you're in a true partnership trying to build a life together and sitting back now post BD. Post BD so much stuff has surfaced, and most of it is your H stewing in it all. Much of it has nothing to do with you in the here and now. So in most situations, just remember all the *(&)(*^ that H is fighting isn't your fight. You don't have to roll over and play dead but it will save your sanity to not engage. Your sanity is #1.
We get a very clear picture of our shortcomings from the R post BD. I see so clearly what kind of behaviors I should have stopped years ago, and I wish I had learned these lessons earlier. But I didn't, so instead I take them with me forward. I know that applying them in the immediate aftermath of BD would have brought me nowhere - and I absolutely got the "too little, too late" speech when I did try to change myself in those early days. Just be the best Woomba in a quiet fashion, and you will move through this as gracefully as possible.
Afterwards I kept thinking about what in the world he could have possible accused me of being appreciative of.....and I got kind of mad at myself for letting that slide. I should’ve pressed it. That’s a 180 I really need to work on because I’ve always been a conflict avoider. And usually it takes awhile for a convo like that to hit me and then I think “hey! WTH was he talking about?” But by the time I have a retort it usually is too late. I wanted to say, what do you think I should be appreciative of? The fact that you walked away from our family? Or you disregarded the vows that you made? Or that you’ve become the pinnacle of everything you despise?
So.... I know Yail has already covered this but I did want to pipe in too... (a) I do think when our Hs are acting like children it is easy to treat them like children. But if my H said to me "I can't understand you when you mumble" (actually if anyone said that to me) I would feel a little annoyed. And, (b) I don't think there is ever a downside to not responding with anger in the heat of the moment. If you want to go back and talk about it later on if you missed the opportunity to validate in the moment (assuming there is an appropriate time) then, as Yail says, being truly curious about why he would feel unappreciated-- if that is indeed what he was mumbling-- would probably be the best way to address it. If you're just looking for an opportunity to get some digs in on his current behavior, I would skip it. What's the use?
Originally Posted by wooba
2. I gave S10 a scratch paper to work on math. And H saw the paper(which had old hotel booking info printed on there) and took it to me and said why am I receiving things like this about his trips. I said uh that’s really old, it’s from like two years ago. He said doesn’t matter, why am I getting this. I said because I BOOKED IT FOR YOU on my account. (He forgot he’d taken that trip) And just like above, I let it slide again!! Few mins later I was like wtf just happened? Was he trying to accuse me of keeping track of the details of his trips? Like I’m not supposed to see which hotels he’s staying at? What is he trying to hide from me??
To me, I agree that you handled this well (not knowing the tone of voice or whatever though). He acted irrationally, you responded in a rational and normal way, then you both let it drop. He probably feels a little stupid and it was nice of you not to rub it in. And yes, he probably doesn't want you to see all that stuff right now because he is hiding a $hit-ton of information from you! Right? I would just let this go about the hotels. What is the point in hammering any of this in?
Originally Posted by wooba
Anyways. My conclusion is that I need to be more of a bada$$ b*tch than a make-nice conflict avoider. Hopefully I’m not just slow to be offended by things. Lol.
I think there are lots of ways to be a bads$$ b*tch but being argumentative is not really a good or healthy way of going about it. Way better? Showing him how his craziness doesn't affect you and you're above it all. i think there is a difference between walking on eggshells-- where you're consciously trying to avoid doing or saying anything to antagonize or upset your H-- and not saying that stuff because ... who cares? It doesn't bother you. It might seem the same from the outside-- wooba let his d*ckish behavior slide-- but I do think there is a big difference when it comes from fear and when it comes from detachment. You don't need to repress your feelings, but you can say what you think without spoiling for a fight.
While I'm still a ways off from detachment, I do think I made this shift. Now if my H says something rude I either ignore it (sometimes say oh, did you say something? like kind of a joke) or I'll just tell him-- zero heat-- stop being an $ss. We don't argue about it, I don't hold onto it (that is my 180) and he'll usually offer a repair behavior or apologize (180 for him). And I know that previously I was really walking on eggshells and letting him get away with $hit I really shouldn't have... and then it would all build up and I'd lose it the next time and we'd get in a big fight. He even told me maybe 4-6 months ago he could tell I was walking on eggshells and it made him feel sad and guilty.... that is when I decided to stop. I do think it has really helped in our interactions generally, but also because I felt somehow diminished walking on eggshells. Making the shift in this space really helped ME to re-inhabit my (sort of) bad-a$$ b*tch self.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Yail- You’re right. Post BD I do have to think and behave differently now, I forget that sometimes.
I am contemplating whether to invite H out for V day weekend. Sort of want to use it as an opportunity to say my piece and just be heard. (Funny I just wrote on wayfarer’s thread and said that I’ve written these letters that would seem pointless to send to H, but now I want to say something to H’s face)
“I think you said that you felt unappreciated last time we were together. I am sorry for all the times you felt unloved, undervalued, and unappreciated. I’d like you to know that it was never my intention to make you feel that way.”
“Whatever the future holds, I want you to find peace and happiness with or without me.” (I’m 100% sure that his reaction would to laugh and dismiss the idea at he can ever obtain either)
Or maybe I should just keep my mouth shut???
And then I think about where we would go. To a bar? A nice restaurant? I’d like to have a nice glass of wine. But I should probably not invite an alcoholic to have a drink with me? But why does it matter he’s going to drink anyway.
