It sounds like there will be some big changes in your limbo moving forward due to the house. In the end it may be a good thing for you and your sanity. Your sitch seems to have been stuck for quite some time. You've made incremental progress letting him go. It doesn't sound like he has done much work on himself. I feel for you. My sitch was lightning fast, but it has allowed me to come out the other side much sooner.
It sounds like he doesn't want to - or isn't ready to - to work on your marriage. Perhaps he doesn't even want to be married.
I don't even think it's a matter of want or not want to. I read somewhere that once you say something you are going to do something out loud you are 50% more likely to do it. I am not sure how they came up with the figure, but it has a ring of truth to it. It took my H a long time to make the decision to leave (6 mths btw BD and moving out, and he was pretty dreadful the 12 months before that, so I suspect 18 months). Once he'd left it was just a case of one foot in front of the other and silencing doubts with "I can't do that to the children again". Unconsciously I suspect he is unable to come back because it goes against his narrative - we can't fix this, I am the bad one, he did everything he could - and he looks for evidence that his narrative is correct. This is why he is so quick to criticise.
Does he want to be married? A friend came around yesterday and reminded me someone had seen his profile on a dating site last year. Strangely, I had completely forgotten ?!?!? It made me sad, not for me, but for him. It doesn't matter in the greater sense of things - he can do what he likes, and I was experimenting with OLD at the time. But I know the mental gymnastics he would have had to do to rationalise being on there - because he wouldn't have been able to admit he was lonely. So does he want to be married, the answer is probably not, and definitely not to me, but I do know he wants to feel needed.
Side note: It strangely made me kind of happy too as it meant he has not found anyone. Unlike many here, there was no PA or EA in my sitch. Just a man who was desperately unhappy being encouraged (by idiots) that the grass was greener on the other side. Well it isn't. The grass is greener where you water it.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I am still finding it extremely hard to say I am 100% committed to repairing our marriage, but I don't want a divorce either.
I think this was the case with my H for a long time. One road is difficult, you have to face truths, make compromises, and even then there is still no guarantee. The other road is easier as you don't have to do anything - it has a life of its own and eventually you will find yourself D. He was not 100% committed to leaving. But he was more committed to leaving than he was to staying and really, that's all it took.
In the same way, I don't think you have to be 100% committed to repairing your M. But you have to be more committed to your M than you are to getting D.
The threats do stem from fear. His statements are illogical and stupid. I know that and (when he has quieted down) he knows and I think he hates himself for it. But, this feeds into the I can't go back narrative - I make him hate himself. I make him be the bad guy. He has been unusually nice the last few days. When he dropped the kids off yesterday, he even offered to walk and then walk our dog. Normally he would have a go at me for not washing her, make a big show of doing it, and then state he was sticking around to walk the dog. This is what he does when he knows he has stepped over the line. But, given the current tensions, I imagine there will be more threats in my near future. I need to brace myself for it.
He has from what I can tell, given the separation due thought. He has presented a number of proposals (albeit on text) for childcare and the house and a reiteration of "not speaking to solicitors". He started to question me yesterday about whether I agreed or not and when I said I was still considering it, he started on about "we need to formalise this and get a legal separation document together". I just said I would respond fully via email - I got a cold look and then he left. So, in answer to your question, "Does he want to be married", well apparently not to me. But I still don't think it's a matter of want or not want. It just is. Momentum (slow as Harvey points out) but the trajectory hasn't changed.
The blaming and snide remarks - our H's sound exactly alike. I've started to do the same as you. I also mentioned it in the counselling session but I am not sure I framed it right as it came across more like whining "You don't help when you blah blah blah". I need to work on it more.
It sounds like you have the measure of the situation, FS. That you know him, and yourself, and the situation well enough to know what the right thing to do is, and you're doing it. For something to change on this trajectory, there's going to need to be some massive introspection on his part, some taking of responsibility, some commitment to change and repair, and, like you say, there's no signs he has any interest in doing that. What you're going now is both fostering the conditions for that to happen for him - if it is what he wants - and if not, fostering the conditions for a divorce that is as positive as possible and your own healing. It is so sad.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
The blaming and snide remarks - our H's sound exactly alike. I've started to do the same as you. I also mentioned it in the counselling session but I am not sure I framed it right as it came across more like whining "You don't help when you blah blah blah". I need to work on it more.
It's really hard isn't it? Sometimes when Youngest is playing up (which is rare, actually) he'll say, 'come on now, don't mess about or I'll get it in the neck from your mother,' which is a) absolutely rubbish and b) really bad for Youngest. I challenge that 100% when it happens - but not in front of Youngest as she won't know that any conflict around that isn't her fault. I did tell him the other day that passive aggressive comments like that made him very unattractive to me (a truth dart, I believe that's called!) and I can tell by the look on his face that it stung a bit... it's true though!
here's the draft response. Any help would be appreciated:
I would like to start but saying I did not want this separation and I do not want to get divorced. I do not think you were ever 100% committed to a divorce, but at the same time, once you’d moved out, could not see any other way but forward. But these things have their own momentum and if it has come to a point where a conscious decision needs to be made. I am, as I have always been, willing to work on us. But I will not stand in your way if your mind is set.
To that end, here is my assessment
1. Children to remain at current schools
I would like D10 to stay at [her school] which constrains where I live. Once both children are in high school, I will look to move further out (where houses are cheaper),
2. Not tied into a mortgage
You have stated clearly you do not want to be tied into a mortgage deal of any sort.
3. Impact of IR25 legislation
{stuff about IR35 and difficulty getting a mortgage}
4. Fair and equitable distribution of economic burden
Both the current childcare and the mortgage places unequal economic burden on me. It is also noted you benefit from any capital repayments I have made on the house. On the balance of things, this burden has been acceptable because we have good co-parenting relationship. I bore the extra costs because of this positive co-parenting relationship.
5. Change to childcare arrangements
In regards to your proposal, I will not accept any 50/50 arrangement which does not stipulate set days.
Your proposal to take them for 1 week per month with an additional 7-8 days spread out over the remainder of the month does not alter my childcare costs. D13 is unlikely to accept any nanny but [name] and needs to be paid a minimum of x per week, whether she does the hours or not.
Note: A true 50/50 arrangement would allow me to negotiate a contract which removes a need for a nanny entirely (e.g. working extra long hours 1 week and reduced hours/WFH the other weeks) and opens the scope of the contracts I am eligible for (many contracts I’ve been shown include travel). Under this arrangement I would be willing to forfeit the bills/school fees (in lieu of child maintenance) that you currently provide.
I am not considering the change in childcare arrangements as part of the assessments below. However, it can be included in any option.
Given the above constraints I propose the following:
Option 1: Seek an interest only mortgage deal for 2 years
• Children to remain at current schools (met) • Not tied into a mortgage (not met) • Impact of IR25 legislation (as this represents a change in the terms will require a new application which will most likely get rejected) • Fair and equitable distribution of economic burden (partially met – removal of capital payments reduces my outgoings).
Assessment – unlikely application will be accepted (see point 3)
Option 2: Allow mortgage to move to variable - FS to bare costs
Note: under this option, I would continue to pay the mortgage (interest and capital) but the capital repayments, from time we move to variable, will be deducted from your share of the equity when we sell. You would still benefit from any increases in the value of the property.
• Children to remain at current schools (met) • Not tied into a mortgage (met, we can elect to sell the house at any time) • Impact of IR25 legislation (none – however, in the event that I am out of contract, then would need to seek to sell) • Fair and equitable distribution of economic burden of mortgage (met – as far as I can see, this is like my renting of the bank, and you renting your flat).
Assessment – feasible.
Option 3: Sell the house
Under this option we put the house on the market and drop to variable as and when the mortgage deal is up. I pay the variable rate until the house is sold subject to any capital repayments (from the time the variable rate kicks in) being deducted from your share of the equity.
• Children to remain at current schools (not met – potentially requiring two moves and additional disruption) • Not tied into a mortgage (met) • Impact of IR25 legislation (none) • Fair and equitable distribution of economic burden of mortgage (met)
Assessment – feasible.
Option 4: One of us buys the other out.
I have included this option for completeness. However, as neither of us (I believe) are in a position to buy the other out, it is not likely to be a feasible option.
• Children to remain at current schools (met) • Not tied into a mortgage (met – we are not tied into a mortgage together) • Impact of IR25 legislation (none if you were to buy me out, unlikely for me to get a mortgage if it were the other way around) • Fair and equitable distribution of economic burden of mortgage (met)
Assessment – not practical.
Option 5: Move to variable option, you move back in, we share costs and co-habitate
I have included this option for completeness. However, as it is unlikely you will go for this
• Children to remain at current schools (met) • Not tied into a mortgage (met) • Impact of IR25 legislation (none) • Fair and equitable distribution of economic burden of mortgage (met)
Whilst this is the most cost saving option (and probably welcome by the children) it adds certain complications, particularly as you are now accustomed to having your own space and people not knowing your comings and goings. It wouldn’t be a problem for me because I have never really had my own space.
Recommendation Option 2 and option 3 appear to be the only feasible options, and at their core, are really the same option, just option 4 requires us putting the house on the market now, and poses two negatives (cost of moving twice and unnecessary disruption to the children).
My preference is option 2 as it means we can sell at any time should we decide to go that way.
A couple of thoughts FS, to do with what you like.
Once or twice you assume his thoughts though I'm sure you're correct. I wonder if he will balk at having words put in his mouth? Instead of "However as it is unlikely you will go for this", what about letting him know your interpretation, but asking (ie an "I" statement). "I am under the impression this is not an option you would favor, but please let me know if I am mistaken"
Originally Posted by FlySolo
Whilst this is the most cost saving option (and probably welcome by the children) it adds certain complications, particularly as you are now accustomed to having your own space and people not knowing your comings and goings. It wouldn’t be a problem for me because I have never really had my own space.
I would leave the children out of this one (could be construed as you using them to advocate for this option), not assume his thoughts, and not offer yours. Maybe just
"Whilst this is the most cost saving option (and probably welcome by the children) it adds certain complications, particularly as you are now accustomed to having your own space and people not knowing your comings and goings.It wouldn’t be a problem for me because I have never really had my own space."
I'm concerned with the line, "Under this arrangement I would be willing to forfeit the bills/school fees (in lieu of child maintenance) that you currently provide." I worry about promises in writing, especially if this escalates in any way and you have mediation/solicitor involved. Perhaps even adding a caveat of "for now" or "as long as this arrangement continues to be mutually agreeable" to give yourself an out. You are willing to work together, but when it is no longer working for you it could be readdressed.
I say this because I played nice during my D with wife, as you seem to be doing. Some sitches allow for that. And for me it largely worked out, and I don't feel I was screwed over in any way (honestly, I probably got a better deal than she did in some ways as she was pretty fair and/or generous). However, there were times early on when W's anger reared its ugly head, and she became someone I didn't recognize. During those times I honestly think she had the ability to be vindictive if I had pushed. I think many sitches here show that.
So in saying that, my advice would be to continue to play nice - placate his moods if necessary - but not put anything in writing that involves you conceding more than 50-50 without strict advice from a lawyer. Give yourself flexibility to back-out of an arrangement if he changes the rules at any time. Not because you will be vindictive, but because you are protecting yourself.
I would take everything out of that email that assumes or speculates about his feelings or motivations or thought processes. And I'd also remove option 5 - it should only be an option if you'd agree to it, and I think you're worth more than that, and you shouldn't ever communicate to him that you're not. If he is going to come back, he's going to need to work on himself, and talk to you about what went wrong, not pick an option from a list you have helpfully laid out for him.
Yail - pragmatic and thoughtful as ever . I will take make the changes as you suggest. Yes, I intend to play nice. It is in the best interest of the kids. If I don't play nice, he gets petty. Right now he is doing everything he can to 'charm' me into being agreeable. He even started a lengthy email about separation with "Hey, I've been thinking about ..." (like we're just discussing arrangements to meet up for coffee and not the desolution of 15 years of marriage). I see through you, mister.
Alison - Yes you are right. I can see it now. I am going to keep option 5 but remove reference this is an option I would consider. I will end with 'not feasible'.
In the meantime, he has sent me another email (the one starting "Hey ...") requesting I go seek an interest only mortgage. He argues that this reduces my payments by around 75% freeing him up from having to pay me anything . In fact, as my repayments would be less that what it would cost him to rent a 3 bedroom house in our area, I should put the difference in a bank account for 'essential' maintenance on the house. The b***dy cheek of the man.
I have an appointment with a solicitor on Thursday and I won't be sending any response that doesn't amount to "I am still considering my options" to him until I've run it by a solicitor.
I have an appointment with a solicitor on Thursday and I won't be sending any response that doesn't amount to "I am still considering my options" to him until I've run it by a solicitor.
Perfection.
This is my biggest concern for you and most all folks here - just to make all decisions with a level, clear, and informed mind. And you always do.
You've got this. Play nice is just another way for "Do not harm. Take no $hi7". Boy, that phrase sure has been relevant.
There was a line in his lengthy email from Sunday that caught my eye " I feel we need to move forward with some sort of separation/divorce agreement. However, I say separation agreement because I am a little nervous about the CGT implications if you stay in the house 2+ years following a formal divorce " and made me dig a little further (google). For those across the pond, CGT stands for Capital Gains Tax and it is a tax (circa 20%) paid on the increase in the value of a property (purchase price vs sale price) when you sell that home and the home is not your primary residence. It normally applies to buy to buy to let properties but can also apply where you have two residences (e.g for work purposes). The rules are fairly cut and dry, if you sell a property and it is not your primary residences for 18 months prior to the sale, then the individual who has not lived in the house is liable for their share of the property value increase.
There is a change coming into effect in March which reduces the 18 months to 9 months, but he has been living away for over 2 years come March, so he is impacted under the old and new regime.
My laymans interpretation of this is:
* CGT does not care the status of a couples relationship. What is relevant is the length before sale that the property ceased to be the primary residence. * Primary residence is fairly loosely defined, but a good measure is which property you slept in most over the period (in his case less than 20 days over 2 years).
We are talking about approx £40,000 so I can appreciate why he is nervous. However, I fail to see how the status of our relationship impacts this. There are only three ways to get him out of this: 1) we play around with the dates he left (this will have implications on the requirement for 2 years separated in order to get a no fault divorce 2) he moves back in for a period and we reset the clock 3) we agree to share the liability (i.e. he pays the CGT and I gift him £20,000)
Don't know the right answer. All I do know is I am not willing to share the cost, and moving back in would be untenable for both of us. If we flex the dates (whilst it falls into the do no harm) a part of me feels that would be letting him off easy (take no sh!t).
**** Anyway, he has been unusually nice the last couple of days. No house talks at all. He is on standby this week which means our childcare schedule says "flexible". He tells me if he can pick up the kids, and then I shift the nanny around / come home early to accommodate. And before anyone thinks I am trying to nice him back, I am not. It doesn't effect me too much, the kids get to see their dad and he stays in a good mood.
He picked them up from school yesterday (nanny was not scheduled anyway so it saved me having to leave work early) and I msged him to say I would be back between 7 and 7:30 and to leave if he had to be somewhere (D13 is old enough to watch D10 for an hour or two). He was still there when I got in he had just finished giving D10 a bath. I said "Oh, I thought you'd be gone. You didn't need to hang around. But thanks for picking them up" then went into my room (my room !!!) to change. When I came out he was gone. I looked around and he had taken the washing out, washed the dogs bedding, put away the breakfast dishes which were drying on the side and washed up and put away the dinner dishes (from him and the girls). The girls had both done their homework and when I looked outside he had cut back some of the trees. I am not sure what the deal is but am guessing this has something to do with him wanting to butter me up for the CGT talk.
***** D13 has been really happy since Christmas. I was worried it would return to normal once she was back at school (school seems to be an emotional trigger for her) but she has been generally chatty and engaging. There is the odd raised voice but nothing that doesn't subside fairly quickly. Mornings have been so much easier. She gets up when I call out to her and by the time I finish getting ready, she is sitting in the kitchen, dressed for her day, school bag next to her playing on her phone. I am hopeful this isn't a glitch. I suspect she sees her dad and I getting on (we are more chatty with one another and even have conversations not about the kids - things in the news mainly) and this has lightened her mood.
*******
Solicitor tomorrow then sending email (with Yail and Alison's amendments) in the afternoon.
I I understand you right, his liability for the CGT is a direct consequence of his decision to a) live elsewhere and b) delay a formal decision on separation / divorce until this time. I think it's brilliant you're seeing a solicitor - s/he will have seen this all before - but on a personal level, detachment and treating an adult with respect doesn't involve saving them from painful consequences of their own decisions. This arrangement already costs you as you keep the nanny on retainer and that directly benefits him much more than you, right? He won't like it - and he's clearly sought his own legal advice and is buttering you up (or in other words, attempting to manipulate you) but I think acting in your children's best emotional and practical interests first, then your own best emotional and practical interests - is what you need to do going forward.
. I will take make the changes as you suggest. Yes, I intend to play nice. It is in the best interest of the kids. If I don't play nice, he gets petty. Right now he is doing everything he can to 'charm' me into being agreeable. He even started a lengthy email about separation with "Hey, I've been thinking about ..." (like we're just discussing arrangements to meet up for coffee and not the desolution of 15 years of marriage). I see through you, mister.