Maybe it's learning towards "finality" or an official ending, maybe it isn't. We really don't know. The benefits you outlined of it being yours alone might help to alleviate some of the tensions, because your lives would be more separate for sure. Perhaps removing tension is a good thing.
You are comfortable in this limbo, but it's not the only way to be comfortable. There are other ways you just haven't experienced yet. That's my takeaway from my own sitch - try your darndest to not fear the unknown. It's not necessarily bad or even worse - it's just different. And the fear is entirely based on it being unknown. We are afraid of making a wrong move. But you're not making a wrong move - you're just making a move. No adjectives attached.
The girls may love the house, but they can love more than one thing. We all can love more than one thing. We are not limited in our love. You may need to spin it as a "great new opportunity" for a while, but they will settle.
I'd say you should write out all of the potential positives that could come out of a move. Just to remove the fear. Look for where opportunities might be hiding, and see if that can inspire some excitement in you.
Hi FS, you sound like you're doing ok, I'm sorry you missed Prague but it's not going anywhere. I wish you luck in your job hunt. Sounds like you need to have a conversation with your H about the house stuff. The kids will adapt to whatever you need to do I think, they are old enough to understand your job situation. Maybe you could even consult with them about what they would prefer if you have to sell the house so they feel like they have a say? My ds1 is off to uni next year and I am pondering moving if it's just me and ds2, but our house is pretty modest and anything else would not be much cheaper, it has plenty of positives to it including a lot of people I know nearby. I will have to stay put I think until ds2 has finished GCSEs and then I can think about it. Houses are complicated, there is history and the hopes and dreams you put into it, so I understand your wish to stay put if possible, but there are also new possibilities. Change is hard, but we have certainly had it imposed upon us haven't we?
These situations with limbo are weird beyond belief sometimes, how do we even start to explain? Sometimes strangers ask me if I'm married and I stare at them, not knowing what to say. I'm sure eventually we will reach some sort of resolution, whether it's R or a new R with someone else, but the limbo feels like it lasts FOREVER. It won't. We are both marvellous human beings who are leading rich full lives, sometimes when people ask if I'm married I want to say 'I am not defined by my relationship with a man, or with anyone else'.
I wish we could arrange to meet up sometime, that would be cool
Hi FS. Sounds like this is a conversation that needs to happen even if it is unwanted at this point. My first thought was... “if this was me writing this, what would FS advise?” I think you probably know the answer to that question. You would say something very similar to what Yail already so eloquently wrote. We just don’t know what the future holds. All we can do is live in the here and now and make decisions with the information we have. Honestly...this might be a bit of a wake up call for your H. You’ve BOTH been living in a kind of limbo and he’s taken full advantage. He would have to give that up and I can’t help but think that is going to be very difficult for him and he may have to think about some things he has been avoiding thinking about. Regardless...you have to do what is right for you. Don’t worry too much about your girls. They will adapt. Kids are more resilient than we think. And don’t assume this will be a negative experience. Having your own place that H doesn’t feel like is also his, may be a really good move for you. Difficult, for sure, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. (((HUGS)))
You’re all correct (as usual). It is purely fear that is holding me back. I’ve spent the last three days on my own (he has had the kids) and I’ve loved it. I’ve pottered around the house, watched Netflix (Marvellous Mrs Maisel - thank you for recommendation Yail), did some YouTube yoga videos and generally enjoyed being in MY house. He did ask me to join them at his mums 60th but I decided not to go - he asked me 30 mins before he was due to pick up the kids and it made me feel like an afterthought, and he dropped round a couple of times to pick up clothes for the girls. Each time I wanted him (and the girls) to leave again so I could have the house to myself. I digress, yes - I am comfortable in my new normal, more than comfortable. I’ve faced the “I’m missing out on 50% of my children’s lives”, “I’m no longer part of the (extended) family”, “who will ever love me”, thoughts of him spending time and being intimate with someone else (I stil don’t think he is with anyone btw) and f***, Im NEVER having sex again tunnels ... and I’m fine. I’m even happy even. But acceptance of those things came over time, happened organically. There was no discussion. Just slow and steady normalisation. Evolution. This, like him leaving, is a cosmic shift (in my little, though over dramatic, mind).
I do know I’m being over dramatic. I will get through it. And the kids will get through it.
The “meeting” is scheduled for Wed eve while the kids are at footie training. I will try and make sure it’s in a public place as he is less likely to become combative (bullying) in public. He tends to the irrational which makes me I take on a school teachers tone - he just gets worse (I have known him to cover his ears and start singing). I might open with asking him what he wants (I still have no idea). I am ok if he wants to sell - we will need to put the wheels in motion quickly as it will take 3-6 months to sell, and once the variable rate kicks in he will have to help out until it’s sold. I am ok if he wants to keep it - though he will need to help out when we move to a variable rate. I can then seek a new mortgage deal when secure employment. Either way, he will need to help out.
Dilly - our separation is not a secret but we don’t talk about it. I suspect he is open about it at work and with his friends who aren’t connected to the ‘family’. I am the same. We threw a BBQ for D13s birthday last year and one of the mums husbands (I am close to the mum) asked her in the car how he should behave. She said “Pretend you don’t know.” Those close to me will ask how I am from time to time, but generally everyone is use to how we are. No-one is surpised when they come round and he is sitting in the kitchen having a cup of tea.
I have thought many times how great it would be nice to meet some of the wonderful people on here IRL. We would probably get through quite a few bottles of wine while we set the world to rights. I understand the rules though - fragile people make for easy pickings for those so inclined. The few ruin it for everyone.
Your meeting with your H is tonight. I just wanted to check in and say that I am thinking about you. It sounds like you have prepared what you wanted to say, what your boundaries are, and what kind of behaviour you will put up with, or not, from him. You've done all you can.
If your H is anything like mine, when he feels pressured by the facts of a situation (he is going to either have to contribute to the mortgage or agree to sell the house - one or the other will requite his involvement, there's no other way) he tends to blame the messenger and kick up all kinds of diversionary tactics to move the conversation onto some fault with the way the message is being delivered, the timing, the tone of voice, whose fault the situation is, etc. Anything other than just sit and say what he wants and what he is willing to do. Your H might not be like that (though I winced when you described him putting his hands over his ears and singing) but you might have a think about what your plan B) is. What do you want? What are you willing or able to do if he refuses to get involved? I guess you can get a court order to sell in the event of a divorce. That might be a nuclear option, and might be the only one you have. Could you take in a lodger or AirBandB one of your rooms? I know that having a rough plan to respond to a worst case scenario helps me stay calm in the moment of these types of conversations.
Just had the 'house' conversation with H. I am worn, frustrated but OK.
I don't think he was super keen to have the conversation at all. He hadn't mentioned the meeting at all since last week, Last night he sent me a message saying D10 had been ill during the day and he would be home tomorrow (today) if she needed to stay home from school. D10 was ill so he came around this morning to watch her. Today I got saying he would take D13 to football training and then watch D10 until I got home. I reminded him we were meeting tonight to discuss the house and I'd get the nanny to watch D10. He said "OK" and suggested a coffee shop.
The coffee shop was closed when I arrived so I messaged him and he suggested meeting in the cafe of a local supermarket.
A LOCAL SUPERMARKET CAFE TO DISCUSS FRAMEWORK FOR DIVORCE FFS
The conversation itself started calmly. I asked him what his intentions were and he responded he did not want to be tied in for another two years. He said our options were he take a charge on the house, I take a charge on the house or we sell the house. The way he explains it is the house is valued and a legal document drawn up which states that from a point in time, although he is still on the deeds, he is no longer paying the mortgage, and therefore it does not fall into his monthly living 'costs. If and when we sell it he is only entitled to the equity that was established at the time the charge was formalised. If I take out a new deal, and the charge applies, the new deal would be solely on my income (even though he is on the deeds) and he thinks I could then go on to an interest only mortgage. I am not 100% sure if this is correct and couldn't find anything online, so any info would be appreciated.
I said that my main priority was children not changing schools. I need to be in the centre of town for 2 more years (when D10 moves to high school and can take a bus) and even after the two years are up, would need to be commutable by train to the centre of town (so D13 doesn't have to change high schools).
We agreed (as he did not want to be tied in) to start the ball rolling on selling the house.
The conversation then turned to how we tell the children. "I will not be here when you tell the children ... it is YOUR choice to sell the house ... I've given you lots of options. You could continue to pay the mortgage if you wanted to ... I won't discuss this any more. I will not be there when YOU tell them" {Well, at least he didn't put his hands over his ears and start singing}
At this point I told him I had to go, asked him to speak to a couple of agents about valuing the house and left.
About 15 mins after I got home he was back. D13 had left somethings in his car and he was just dropping it off. I took the things and went to say goodbye when he said (I'm paraphrasing) "I I think you should look into the charge option because moving will destroy D13. She will shut down ... fail her GCSEs ... not get into a good university ... and will blame you".
He then said if we sell the house he is going to stop paying the bills/utilities. I told him fine but then I expect you to start paying child support (he doesn't currently). Then the sh!t really hit the fan.
H: I have the kids nearly 50% of the time so shouldn't be paying you anything. M: There is no fixed schedule. I need a fixed consistent schedule as the current flexible arrangements costs me money {I basically have the nanny on retainer} and is not looked on favourably at work {I WFH frequently and my working hours change from one day to the next}. H: I can't do a fixed schedule. M: That's not my problem. What you see as flexible, I see as inconsistent and costly. If you're making changes to the schedule/split, I would like to formalise it and get it agreed with a solicitor. H: I will go for full custody and the house and you can move out and give me money. M: Don't be ridiculous. Who will look after them when you're away. H: I'll get an au pair. Any legal document which says less than 50% means {and here is the crux of it} you could move anywhere without consulting me. If you want to go down that route then be prepared for an ugly custody battle.
Then the nanny came back with the children, we smiled and pretended nothing happened and he left.
What have I learned:
1. He does not want to be the bad guy in front of the kids 2. He does not want me to sell the house (he threw in lots and lots of guilt trip statements) 3. He knows if I speak to a solicitor I will get primary custody (he is a pilot and is away 50% of the time). 4. His go to response when he feels threatened is to threaten even if his threats are irrational and an over escalation.
and most importantly, in the face of all this, I remained calm.
Ringing around to speak to solicitors tomorrow (it's been nearly 2 years since I last spoke to one).
Oh boy. I don't know what I can say, FS, but we are here to for you to talk to. Vent to, if you don't want a 2-sided convo. Sorry this is so long.
The first thing that jumped at me was paragraph 10 about D13. He is projecting something - maybe his past? Guilt? Who knows. But he cannot read the future, and projecting something so bleak for your daughter is something you should immediately dismiss. Perhaps she would take it a bit harder than D10 (I don't know their personalities), but this in NO way ruins her life and condemns her to some future without prospects.
This reminds me of his disdain for piercings/tattoos and how he thinks one would eliminate D10 or D13 from any "serious" work or career success. I'm seeing a major hangup here for him and it irks me. If things aren't perfect than they are irrelevant? Does he feel that way? It ties in to his desire to not want to be the bad guy. And his desire for you to stay in the home, have no change, and remain in a comfy arrangement. "Picture perfect" only.
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When you say "solicitor" does that mean lawyer on this side of the pond? If so, that is wise. See if what H says about the house is accurate. Only make decisions based on real info. I think you have many questions to unearth on this topic. You're a very intelligent woman, so I'm sure you'll get a full picture of what a sale might look like with every scenario layed out.
Question: If it turns out that he is not part of the sale (because he is not entitled to the equity earned since he moved out, and he is considered a second/separate household etc. etc.) then why is he inquiring with agents to get the value? I realize it may be helping you, but if you are the one ultimately in charge of the sale (and living there) I think you should be in charge of the decisions made around selling. If it turns out the sale is on your shoulders you should be the sole one to decide what deal to take, and who you wish to work with etc etc.
Gosh, the child support thing. It didn't occur to me. But you are absolutely 100% correct to bring this up to him. I'm so sorry this is turning into such an intense and real discussion. I don't know if these points will put him at ease, but perhaps in a future conversation: 1) The solicitor's job is to assist the two of you in making a fair schedule. Your intent is not to "win" and for him to "lose", but to come up with something that WILL BE less than perfect, but will be fair. The goal is each of you have the same level of burden in inconvenience, but also the same level of joy at having the girls. Perhaps spelling it out to him that you're not after the jugular will help. 2) The documents could outline (IF you are okay with it) that you cannot move without consulting him. This is tricky. I don't want you legally in a box. But is there language that maybe outlined the next 2 years that you won't move outside of X kilometers away without additional mediation?
I don't think your H deserves to be coddled, but he clearly can't handle these real conversations. I wonder if a bit of calm rational that outlines where he is "winning" might adjust his tone.
Last question: He does not want you to sell the house. Early on in your convo it sounded like he outlined one option being that he owned the house (instead of you). Is this not feasible, not wanted? I'm guessing you wouldn't want it, but just want to be sure it's ruled out.
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In some of the older threads on this forum there were some who would advocate for the rare and well-timed "truth dart". The rare time you really put everything on the line and outline to the WAS exactly what hurt was caused. It goes against the current diatribe of "no R talks - EVER" that most speak of currently.
Anyway, what if this is the time you send a little dart? I know you both are prideful so this may not be what you'd like to do - you may be past it. But you could consider, "H, I am trying to work out logistics of a difficult but realistic decision. I was not the one who chose to leave the M. You did. And we have been living as if "almost married" for 2 years. It has been comfortable enough for both of us, but not sustainable. Me buying a new home is not something I want to do or something I am doing to spite or be vengeful of you, I am merely addressing the reality I was given by your decision. And with that, we need to work out these details regarding (Sale of house/custody/child support) as best we can. I am asking for you to work through this with me with mutual respect. Unless your heart or decisions have changed over the past two years, I do not see an alternate way forward".
Post often, FS. If you're up for it. I was thinking of you today.
Yail - thanks for the response. Yep, it was a tough conversation(s). I think (hope) I handled it OK. I didn't cry at all last night, so that's progress.
Originally Posted by Yail
projecting something so bleak for your daughter is something you should immediately dismiss ... disdain for piercings/tattoos and how he thinks one would eliminate D10 or D13 from any "serious" work or career success.
My H has some really admirable qualities (he is a darn good father, he worked his @rse off to get to where he is, and he is really really good looking) but lies, exaggerates or takes a "world is going to end if u don't agree with me view. He is also very judgemental (tattoos = no hoper / lay about, SAHM's are lazy, working mums are selfish etc etc) in order to fit in with whatever narrative he is trying to portray. It wasn't always this way - he use to respect my opinion on things, but in the 6 or so months prior to BD, I couldn't disagree with him on any topic because he would get so aggressive or him quoting random statistics at me. I use to get upset. Now, I just walk away or nod my head and change the topic.
I agree his past has something to do with this behaviour (and the BD in general). His parents D and it was nasty. There was infidelity on both sides, and once the S (and eventual D) started, there was arguments, accusations and using the children as leverage. Within a year both his parents had started new families. Both parents relied heavily on the state. The shame of having to live on hand outs drives his aspirational outlook (perfect house, perfect children, high status job). His mum (also very driven and also very loving of her children) is judgemental and has a victim like approach to things, so this feeds into his psyche as well.
Originally Posted by Yail
When you say "solicitor" does that mean lawyer on this side of the pond
Solicitor is a lawyer who doesn't get to wear the fancy white wig. He doesn't want me to speak to a solicitor because he knows if he does he is scr@wed. So he threatens ("if you speak to a solicitor I will seek full custody"). I will speak to a solicitor anyway for the very reasons you quoted.
Originally Posted by Yail
If it turns out that he is not part of the sale (because he is not entitled to the equity earned since he moved out, and he is considered a second/separate household etc. etc.) then why is he inquiring with agents to get the value
The house is in both our names and he is entitled to some of the equity. I know if I get the valuations done, and the valuations are below what he thinks the house is worth, then he will not accept them because "you picked the wrong estate agents".
Originally Posted by Yail
He does not want you to sell the house. Early on in your convo it sounded like he outlined one option being that he owned the house (instead of you). Is this not feasible, not wanted? I'm guessing you wouldn't want it, but just want to be sure it's ruled out.
His proposal is to live in the house, effectively reversing our current arrangement. This was an off the cuff, irrational argument. He is a pilot and is away at least 2-3 days per week any day of the week. He suggested getting an au pair to live with them and watch the kids while he is away. F*** that.
I get your point about truth darts. A little consequential reality to shake them out of their funk. But in my case the dart has been fired (the conversation about the house) and not just to shake him out of any type of funk. I don't know what will happen as he faces the reality of it all. Like I said, he is not the most rational thinker when challenged.
I am drafting (in my head) a response to all the points he raised during the meeting. I know some people would say we should do this face to face but with my H things in writing are more likely to be absorbed (he is not a great listener and interrupts at the best of times). I need to think carefully about the tone - co-operative and rational. He will still get angry, but at least I'll be able to put forward entire arguments instead of being shut down at the gate.
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Journalling
He sent me a number of cordial logistics type messages last night, as well as re-iterating I should seek an interest only mortgage and he will guarantee 1 straight week + 7-8 additional days per month (bringing it up to 50/50) after the summer. I responded "Thank you. I will have a think about this and get back to you.". He chased me again about the interest only mortgage today. I have not responded.
I suspect H has spoken to a solicitor already and they've advised him that given the nature of his job, and unless I agree to it, he is unlikely to get a 50/50 custody arrangement. They've probably also told him unless he gets 50/50 custody, then I can move anywhere in the UK without his consent and will likely get more in the assets split (because I am the primary carer). This is why he is so against me seeking individual advice.
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On the D13 front, we had a joint session today with her counsellor to discuss D13's progress. The counsellor said she's been doing well and is opening up more in the sessions. H and I both said she's been open and happy over the Christmas break and this may be because there was no pressure on her. The only iffy point was D13's lack of organisation and tendency to be late - for which H blames me. I told him it would be helpful if he supported me in trying to get her to take on more responsibility for her lack of organisation and lateness instead of blaming me "mummy forgot your swim cap" as this enables her playing the victim. Neither H or I mentioned the potential move during the session.
It sounds like you handled a very difficult conversation really really well. Your H wasn't as adult in it as you might have wished, but you know, I have a bit of compassion for him the way you describe it going.
It sounds like he doesn't want to - or isn't ready to - to work on your marriage. Perhaps he doesn't even want to be married. And he also doesn't want what the practical demands of divorce would involve - a regular custody agreement, a fair financial settlement, losing that absolute decision making power over his daughter's living conditions, the social stigma, perhaps, of being a divorced dad and all that might entail (even if other people's judgments are only in his head). It makes it no easier for you - and eventually it will have to be one way or the other and he will have to deal with it - but I can empathise with that as either path would involve change and pain and uncertainty, risk and vulnerability.
This holding pattern you've both been in isn't painless either, but perhaps it's delayed the difficulty of a decision and commitment to a way forward - whatever way that is - for him - and he's seeing the end to the limbo lurking and is frightened of what the future holds for him. You know my H has come back to the family home. I am still finding it extremely hard to say I am 100% committed to repairing our marriage, but I don't want a divorce either. He must find that difficult too (though I hope I'm being a bit more adult than your H is about it most of the time!). I'd love to be able to overcome my fears and indecisiveness and ambivalence and launch whole heartedly onto a way forward, but I just can't. So I can empathise if that's the position your H is in.
The threats are a fear response, aren't they - he's worried that life is going to dislodge him from the fence he's sitting on (as am I) and he's lashing out. He's probably been doing less work on himself, less reflection, less consideration and self-care than you have, so he's less able to comfort himself and deal with that fear and the pain of change, so he's taking it out on you and trying to get you to make the decision for you both so he can blame you, or delay a proper decision further.
I think you know all this and I think it's probably not that different for you either. I think you're very wise to talk to a sollicitor and refuse to be rushed on text message over this. It's also really positive he's being present and attentive in the counselling sessions for your daughter. Perhaps that is the time to talk more carefully about the future and how to do together what would benefit the kids most. He can surely see - perhaps in a calmer moment - that any arrangements going on should be about what is best for the children, and their right to have stability and a good relationship with both of you - rather than his or your rights to have what is preferable to you? If he's a good Dad, talking about it in terms of what works better for the kids might be a way forward?
My H does the blaming mummy for things that the kids fail to do and should do themselves too. It drives me up the wall. It has decreased a lot since I started challenging him about it - sometimes in front of the kids. I don't like to do that in case it provokes an argument or poor behaviour from him in front of the children, but I have to balance that against the damage to the kids in being enabled to be victims and seeing their mother made responsible for other people's business unfairly. I think it's really really bad for kids to be able to play off their parents against each other. I don't know that I get it right, but I do know my H has taken advantage of my wish not to argue in front of the kids to get in some little jabs, and challenging him seems to have made it less likely to happen. I do it firmly but calmly.
It goes like this:
Him: 'Oh, Mum's forgotten to put your school shoes in your bag again!' Me: 'No - she's nine years old and she knows she needs to put her own shoes in her own bag. She's a big girl and knows not to blame other people when she's a bit forgetful.' Him: *scowl, grumbles under breath, slinks away*
