I've been reading many stories on here, and i've just completed yours. Wow. And do you know what, i read alot of it as if it was my W posting! This is revealing to me as i'm recognising my part in being the LBS, and the traits i've displayed in the past. Although i would hope not to the extent you have put up with. Anyway my point is, i have been reading and re-reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and so, so much resonates.
What i have gleaned from your posts is that your H is displaying a huge amount of Nice Guy Syndrome traits, which conversely aren't actually that 'Nice' at all. He has issued you with covert contracts, that in his head make sense, but you are completely unaware of. So when he reacts negatively towards you its usually because of an unmet need, that you (rather annoyingly to H) should have known about!
I would recommend you have a read, as a lot of it may make sense to you, and ultimately if your H is willing - he should definitely have a read too.
Hello Chaz! Nice to meet you on here. I 100% agree with you. I actually read NMMNG a few months ago and found it very useful for myself: I know I've used people-pleasing and pacifying behaviour to try to control my H's moods and behaviour then got resentful when it didn't work. It's where I got the insight about Acts of Service - wanting to show love in a way that is meaningful to him without using domestic work to buy affection. There's a difference and I'm still working through.
I don't doubt it would be useful to H. He considers himself a good guy, a victim in life, and any implication at all that he isn't perfect is met with the most amazingly childish behaviour. He's very very invested in that image of himself. He needs to blame so he doesn't ever have to consider changing. However, there's not a cat's chance in the hot-place that he would read this book, and that chance would decrease 100% if it was me suggesting it to him. He isn't interested in other people's points of view. He's always right. Always. It's much better for me and my marriage if I concentrate on myself and leave him to himself.
Originally Posted by Yail
Alison, on point #1 - I think I understand why you don't wish to validate. Is it because this is a behavior he has gotten away with for far too long and you wish it to stop? Because it's a poor habit of his you feel you would be validating, not an authentic emotion?
Hi Yail! Happy New Year! I'm going to take your questions point by point and answer in a bit of detail - mainly for my own sake as a kind of record - and I just wanted to say THANK YOU because they were so intensely useful and illuminating to me.
So - the blaming. It's his belief that he is pretty helpless to address any minor discomfort at all in his life, and the major problems are all someone else's fault too. This is an ingrained characteristic in him. I find it infuriating and I am working on letting that go. I guess he can feel how he likes, but the behaviour - verbalising it to me - has no positive outcome at all. It entrenches the fiction that he has no agency in his life, and it's dull and unattractive to hear. I think the emotion - he feels stuck, helpless, like the world is out to get him, that things aren't fair - is one that he genuinely feels. But I am only guessing at that emotion. He doesn't express it verbally.
Originally Posted by Yail
I guess I'm torn on this one. My first instinct is to say something along the lines of, "thank you for sharing that perspective with me" which isn't exactly validating, but it's not invalidating either. But that would likely allow his blame-game to continue unchecked. I thought of mirroring what he says so it sounds ridiculous but I do not think that would help (and would start a fight and likely sound in-validating).
On minor things, 'thanks for telling me,' or 'I hear you' or 'I get what you're saying' will sometimes be enough to head the whinging off at the pass. At other times, especially when we get onto the ways in which he thinks things are my fault, he really really needs me to agree with him. Sometimes I do, and I say, 'yes, that was difficult, and I wish I'd behaved differently. I can't fix the past. I want to do differently now and in the future,' - he almost always finds that provocative and will point out instances from distant and recent past where I have displeased him, most times twisting the truth pretty spectacularly in order to do so. My suspicion here is that he wants a contrite and obedient emotional punch bag and doesn't like the fact he doesn't have one any more. I think it's healthiest to let him suffer that on his own without much validation from me (especially as he probably wouldn't agree with that!)
Originally Posted by Yail
So saying "What do you want to do about it" is helpful to someone who has coping skills. But he doesn't, and he can't work it out in the moment of emotion. Would changing the language to "what do you think WE should do about it?" be helpful? Imply that you'll help?
Or a simple choice? "I'd love to know how I can help. Would you like me to listen, or offer solutions?" They say this is one of the primary differences in the ways men/women communicate. One learned behavior is that men offer solutions when the woman just wants someone to listen & validate. Perhaps this is what he is actually seeking?
This is really useful. Thank you. It helps me to have bit of compassion for him - to understand that he's just not mature enough. He CAN'T do these things. I may as well be angry at a toddler for not being able to balance a chequebook.
If I give an example, it might help? Last night, H brought up the fact he was concerned that Eldest doesn't see friends very much. Eldest does have some extra-curricular hobbies, but it is true, he doesn't tend to see friends at weekends and invite them back to the house.
H: expresses this concern. Me: Yes, I can see you're worried about that. H: I need to know you're going to back me up on this. Me: What action do you want to take? I want to know what you think would be best. H: Eldest needs to do X Y and Z. (This was specifics about seeing friends, getting out and about, doing activities). Me: I agree those things would be positive for him, but I'm not sure what your ideas are for what you think we as his parents should do? H: Expresses more worry and anxiety about Eldest. Me: You know, when I've had conversations about this with Eldest, he doesn't seem unhappy. Perhaps it's not as much of a problem as we thought. I'm at a loss as to how we'd encourage or make him do the things you want him to do? Maybe you could have a conversation with him about it? H: Well Eldest won't talk to me about anything. That's because you... (insert more stuff here about how I am so lenient I've made him into the bad guy... I listen to a little bit of this, and he seems to get agitated and go around in circles. He seems to have forgotten what his original point is.) H: I need you to back me up. It's no wonder he won't do what I want if you don't back me up. Me: I can't back you up until I know what it is you plan to do. Can you tell me?
We went round and round like this for a while until I got frustrated. I probably showed that in my tone and body language. I said I didn't want to talk about it any longer, but I would be open to hearing any suggestions he had. I also followed up by suggesting to Eldest, in front of H, that he might want to invite some friends around this weekend. H was playing a computer game at the time and didn't participate in the conversation at all. H has very very very few social contacts outside his work. I couldn't name one friend of his. Eldest is an introvert, I'd say, but not a loner. H suffers massive social anxiety and I believe is projecting this on Eldest and wanting me to act as his proxy in taking some action to make Eldest do the things he isn't able to do himself. I haven't shared that opinion with him at all.
This was a very very mild example of the sort of conversations we have almost daily. H raises a problem. I either don't think it's a problem, or I think if it's a problem it is down to him to make a suggestion, or I agree it is a problem and make a suggestion as to how to fix it, and nothing changes, or he loses interest in the matter almost immediately. When I have asked him what he needs from me he says he wants me to care about his feelings. Me telling him verbally I care about his feelings doesn't seem to matter. I believe he wants me to change his feelings. He seems to be under the impression I am capable of that, and of course I am not so when his bad feelings don't go away, he gets to be annoyed at me about that.
Originally Posted by Yail
Last thought: Remind me, were you in therapy for a while? Still? I'm curious if your therapist might offer you some feedback on your body language. Since the two of you are in a repetitive back-and-forth dynamic and you are changing your words I wonder if you can change your body language to match, and feedback on how you are subtly communicating may be helpful. Perhaps your husband is more in tuned to that than actual words.
I am going to ask my IC about this. I think that would be really helpful to know. I am fairly sure that in these instances, even when I am trying to verbalise willing and helpfulness and that I care, my actual thoughts, which are generally along the lines of 'this again?' seep out. I might be able to fake it better. We've generally been talking about boundaries, building up my self esteem, meeting my own emotional needs and managing my parenting better - but I can ask about this. I did see H's IC with him once before a couple of months ago - in the summer - and she suggested I either acted like a child seeking his approval, or like a parent trying to manage his childish behaviour. I think she was absolutely right. I believe he either acts like a parent - trying to get me in line to do what he wants - or like a child tantrumming because he feels bad and it's Mommy's fault. Unhealthy on both sides.
