For the record, Briget, I'm here with you on the OW thing. I think for some of us, it is so completely alien to our values that it seems just unreal that people choose to behave this way and then try to justify it.
My C-- who I spent a lot of time on this subject with-- put it to me this way: that no one actually defends adultery unless they are trying to make excuses for their own behavior... and it's usually when they realize that they'd characterize it as "wrong" if they were on the other end that something begins to change. That generally speaking, it's usually a red flag when you are saying something is "wrong" when someone else does it but OK when you do it because of X or Y.
Working with my anger to turn it to compassion is as far as I have gotten on that journey. I don't have respect for the behavior of the OW, or of her constant attempts to make excuses and justifications for it. But I do have some compassion for her.
My H has been easier to have compassion for because he feels deeply the gravity of the situation and has shared a lot of that with me. He stopped trying to justify it a long time ago. So he's been lost (his words, not mine) but I think he is also keenly aware of how lost he is and what that has meant to our M. For some reason, that heals a little bit for me. I can forgive him, but he can't seem to forgive himself.
But I figure the OW has her own karma to deal with... and I have mine.
I'm so glad you were able to understand what I was trying to say!
Oh, and just to clarify, I now firmly believe that Amanda is just young/naive/ditzy. She doesn't realize how her actions LOOK.
In fact, here's a recent example.
Husband was at his Mother's house, taking care of Little Brother.
Amanda called him up there and asked him if she could crash.
He said, "That wouldn't be appropriate!" ( When he told me about this, I was so astonished and I showered him with kisses! I told him he was my hero. He was surprised that I thought it was a big deal!)
She asked why it wouldn't be appropriate.
He said, "Amanda, you are having a blond moment. First of all, I'm married...second of all, it's my Mother's House."
So, that's why I'm not mad at her...she's just clueless.
IF he and she had had an affair...you can bet I'd have been furious with her as well as him! (Well, heck, this whole time I thought I was furious with her...that is, until I had that insight on Sunday!)
You guys are discussing this topic so well, I have felt no need to chime in. How about my other shark friends? Hopefully, they can add their own words of wisdom....
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I'm trying to ignore my own life as much as possible, but figured I'd give it a go so I can work tomorrow.
Mr. W. called me this evening on his way back to the apartment. He sounded down, dejected and very tired. I asked him how his trip had been, and he said good. Hmmm. Very different answer than his tone spoke. He was calling to respond to a voicemail D10 had left after school...
I was just about to hand her the phone when he said, "Betsey, thank you for the letter you left me. It was well written. I promise to get an answer to you very soon. I realize that you and I both need this."
I said thanks and that was it. We'll see when and what answer I receive. As always, I will post his decision.
I have been praying over this. Instead of praying that I get my wish granted, I pray for acceptance. I pray that God is able to help Mr. Wonderful look deep within his own soul to answer my questions and for Mr. W's answer to reflect that divine path. I pray that we will both live happily with whatever he chooses. And I pray that he really believes in whatever answer he gives me.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hi Betsey - I've been skirting around this thread coz my 'guilt' over not properly dealing with the boundaries theme keeps looming large in my mind. I blame this over-developed conscientiousness on the nuns in the convent - I wish my parents were not that fond of Catholic education systems Looking in, and now posting, is a huge step for me, knowing I owe myself the dissertation on boundaries
BUT, the reason I am really glad I stopped by was to give you a supportive hug.
Quote: Instead of praying that I get my wish granted, I pray for acceptance.
Poignantly, this makes me want to cry. Since the end of March, I too have been praying for the courage and strength to accept whatever happens. I feel this approach has helped me detach further. Not giving up, after all, we do have dreams and wishes, but to also acknowledge that some things are beyond our control, or even influence.
I will be keeping my fingers crossed, hoping Mr. W has the courage, stamina and compassion for himself, and his family, and decides wisely. My turn to send you a big hug. Love, Slowly
I am really running late for work now... but wanted to echo this:
Quote: I will be keeping my fingers crossed, hoping Mr. W has the courage, stamina and compassion for himself, and his family, and decides wisely. My turn to send you a big hug.
Hey Bets, just one of your shark friends jumping in on the previous subject.
I am jumping in and keeping this going because I really think it is such an important topic. I think my views are in the minority, too, so I want to put them out there as food for thought.
I agree that people try very hard to make excuses for their own behavior when they know that the behavior is bad. It's so easy to point the finger at someone else rather than at yourself.
When people get cannot forgive the OP, but can forgive their H's, well, isn't that selective finger pointing also?
Both people made the mistake. NO ONE but those two people have any idea what went on, or what was said. There are lots of empty promises made, lots of words spoken that aren't really sincere.
I hear so many people saying that the OP "manipulated" their spouse in some way. A few posts above, this statement was made regarding infidelity:
Quote: I think for some of us, it is so completely alien to our values that it seems just unreal that people choose to behave this way and then try to justify it.
But, isn't blaming the OP simply a way of justifying the actions of your spouse?
Sure, you see first hand that the spouse is sorry or wants to reconcile or whatever... No one really knows what the OP is thinking in most cases. I understand that some may try to continue the relationship once they are told it is over, but I also understand that some may be just as sorry, just as embarrassed, just as regretful.
I just think that it is far healthier to blame both people equally, and to work to forgive both equally. I know that some circumstances prevent this. But, I think the majority of them fall along these lines.
I'm not pointing this post to anyone in particular. I just wanted to give the flip side to this issue.
Oh, and Bets, I know that tired and defeated voice that Mr. W used very well. When I try to talk or bring up an issue, I get not only that but also the slumped shoulders. I finally asked why that was the other day. The response? "Everytime you try to talk to me I am reminded of what a failure I am."
New plan of attack? Make H realize that he is not a failure, I am not a failure, and our relationship does not need to fail. We are simply two people that made mistakes and have learned from them.
I hope you get some of the conversation that you need.
Hola ocean buddies! Shark number two, reporting in! Yes, fish sober…
It has been a busy week around these parts, so I haven’t had a lot of posting time. It seems that the conversation was pretty sustained though!
For the OW/OM thing, like Pam, I’d just like to add that their value system isn’t quite at skewed as we like to think. They do not see the marriage, the spouse at home, and that the rip tide that is happening as a result of the affair. At worst, they can be accused of behaving selfishly by trying to pull our spouse into their life.
But they didn’t kidnap these men or women, either. I read once that OM/OW should receive 50% of the blame. To me, that is ridiculous. I’d give them maybe 5% on a good day. Our spouses are the ones who made the conscious choice to meet their needs outside of their marriage. I reiterate, if it hadn’t been this OW/OM, it would have been another. ‘Nough said. The more we focus on the symptom, the less we do about the problem. And I speak from the experience of someone who envisioned the nasty things I would say to this OW, the torture I’d love to put her through, the actions I could take to make her loose her job, etc, etc, etc. And at the end of the day? I’d have accomplished nothing. I see that now.
Bets…I truly admire you for your attitude about this. I know that you are truly ready to accept any outcome. I have been also; I just hope for your sake that you don’t receive another ‘I don’t know’. Have you asked him for a reasonable time frame in when you expect his answer? We’re all here for you, which of course you know!
"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
--Agnes Repplier, writer and historian
When I pray at night for the strength, wisdom, and courage to get me through whatever life throws at me, I also pray that I am able to forgive OW for being an adultress as well as H being an adulterer.
I think when we get caught up in the pain, we jsut want to vent our frustrations somewhere on somebody. Who better than OW? I too am guilty of thinking of some pretty nasty things to do. I realize that doing nasty things to her will not get me any closer to H.
Now, I do pray that a sense of guilt and/or shame fills the heart of OW and/or H to amke them realize that what they are doing is not right. That someone at some point says, we can not go oon like this because it is wrong.
I had an EA for 3-4 months and I felt horrible. I would get off of the phone w/OM and start crying because I felt soooo guilty. I would go out w/him and on my way home be in tears because I felt like such a betrayer and I was! I was searching for something that I was not getting at home and also angry because H had a PA prior to this. Now, from the mind of someone involved in a PA...I had every excuse in the book why I was doing it.
Excuses 1. He did it to me 2. I have been a good wife and mother for years and he screwed me 3. I never go out and he comes and goes as he pleases. 4. Yeah, I know that he is sorry, but he should have been sorry before this. 5.He never really showed remorse for what he did to me 6.He still continues to go out and party and leave me at home 7. I deserve to be happy 8.My feelings have nothing to do with OM. I am just fed up with H's behavior! 9.Am I going to be able to love him and be loved by him the way we need in a M?
Now, those are just a few of the excuses and don't get me wrong, I spent many nights crying because of guilt. I spent planty of night asking that I am able to end this addiction. My best friend said to me, F------, are you sure you are giving your M your best shot? Are you sure you are not just infatuated with this op? ( I never thought I loved him) Have you tried to talk to him about how you feel? I told her everytime I think of not talking to him it is unbearable. She said, you just have to go cold turkey for your M. Well, guess what ? When I finally decided to slowly let go that is when H left. I had decided I want my M. I want my H and he left. I asked him to stay. He said, No! I think he had already gotten entangled with someone else because of his pain. I saw him 1 time after H left and I cried and told him this is it and I love my H. This has all been a mistake! He begged and pleaded to no avail. It was not until I felt that I may not have H in anyway shape of form that I decided to end EA with OM. I say all this to say that, I totally undestand how it is to be addicted to OP! It is only an addiction. It is a hard 1 to break when unmet needs are being taken care of. I learned a valuable lesson in all of this. The scary part is I was at home and still influenced by H. He is not home so he has all of the free time in the world to talk to OW. I am not even sure what relationship is because I snooped and looked @ cell bill on internet. I only know that they talk. He says friends. Looks like Ea to me! I tried to call her, she wouldn't talk. I only called once and realized it was a mistake and never did it again!
When he told me about this, I was so astonished and I showered him with kisses! I told him he was my hero. He was surprised that I thought it was a big deal!)
Looking in, and now posting, is a huge step for me, knowing I owe myself the dissertation on boundaries