This thread is a godsend and so interesting. Some really thought provoking concepts and helpful information comes out of all the posting that goes on here. Thank you all for hosting this great contributory event on the BB!
I hope I have the opportunity to some day contribute my own thoughts on boundaries. Unfortunately right now I'm just going to deal with distancing for a while!
Have a great weekend and wonderful Mother's Day to all the mothers on this thread! Totally
I'm back... and again I give thanks to you two for helping me out with this one. Lies has been an issue that I have tried to sweep under the carpet and not admit how much it hurt me.
Quote: Well, how would you treat your teenager if you discovered an incessant path of lying?
Can't say really, I don't have kids.... (Happy Mother's Day to all you Moms on the BB)
Quote: However, the consequence for lying is that people no longer value the words that come out of their mouths.
This is what I used to say to him all the time. Tried to get him to understand how that I couldn't 'see' or 'hear' any of the good stuff he did because I was no longer clear on what was real and what was a lie.
Quote: For one, are you actively trying to catch him in lies?
Guilty as charged. But I have realized a while ago how destructive this was to me, to our R, and to him. So even though I'll admit I'm not 100% snoop-free, I no longer let him know that I know something.
A funny (perhaps more ironic) example was a time he told me he went up to the Outlet mall (an hour drive). He said he went alone, but I knew better & actually had proof. But I didn't say anything. A few days later I was at his apartment & he said he had something for me, for my birthday (a month earlier). He had already taken me out to dinner, so I didn't expect a gift. It was an absolutely gorgeous silk scarf from Ann Taylor. Before I opened it, I did calmly & quietly say 'well you wouldn't be in Ann Taylor if you had been alone' (which is absolutely true), but realized I was being a b*&^% so shut up & opened it.
It was SO me, & beautiful, and I thought, well he may have gone w/ a woman, she may be more than a friend, but he was buying me a gift. So stop worrying.
Quote: The trick is to draw him into feeling comfortable being honest with you.
Yup! This is what I am learning. And lately, it does seem he hasn't lied much. I've stopped flogging the evidence, stopped expecting to be told the minute details of his life, and responded cooly when he tells me he has plans.
Quote: Why not share with us the reasons why he would feel the need to lie instead of be truthful with you?
Well, I'm still trying to figure this part out. Especially now that he's technically free to date or do whatever he wants, why lie? But I can say that both control and fear of my reaction is probably why he lies.
I'm beginning to see how controlled he felt - how little I understood of his need for space & self-determination. He also couldn't deal with my crazymaking - I'm loud & fiery & then it passes. He's quiet & would rather ignore an issue than face it squarely. The more intense I got, the more he withdrew, and it just became easier to lie than to deal with me.
But I still don't get why he still lies now about doing things w/ other people (presumably women, or the OW?). I can only think now that he doesn't want to hurt me. He absolutely hates to see me sad or crying. So since he's free to do as he likes anyways, why add to my pain by letting me know? That doesn't sound right either, but that's all I can think of now.
What I do know is that anytime I have confronted him with his lies, it has been disasterous. So I thought I'd try backing off, accept that he knows when & why he does & that I'm pretty smart, and see what happens - does it reduce the lying? or is it the same?
This is a recent 'experiment' and first data would indicate it's less, but it's too soon to see right now.
Quote: It becomes a game of extreme patience. You must promise yourself that you won't be the one to dole out consequences. This is going to take time.
Bingo! I agree, tho' easier said than done. The bottom line is that I hated myself for snooping & busting. I hated being that type of person - it's not my nature. And I thought what could I possibly do to be that person that he would NOT (wouldn't dream of) lying to?
Which leads us back to setting boundaries and why I was curious to what Meredith DOES to set this particular one. For now I'll have to say that it's a work in progress - the trying to figure out how to set the boundary and/or eliminate the need to set the boundary in the first place!
Have a great weekend ladies! I'm headed for that glass of wine and hopefully to dull those brain cells in overdrive!
Okay, I'm back! And although I confess to having a beer (I can thank Pandamoses/Mike for a great dinner, beer and a good conversation), I'm not drunk!
So, H2H, you have literally hit a gold mine here. I'm going to tackle this until Meredith can get over here.
I see the troubles you have with his lying as being systemic: that is, he lies to you to make him feel comfortable in dealing with you.
I'm going to venture a guess here and say that I don't think he's a pathalogical liar with everyone, all the time?
Let's digest this.
Mr. Wonderful and Sting (Meredith's H) hate conflict. They avoid it at all cost (BTW, this is Mr. W's mantra). They are also married to crazymaking women who have lots of control issues and deep rooted fears. I know that my #1 fear has been being abandoned.
My fears were the driving force in nearly all our interactions. If I feared he wouldn't come home alive after being out drinking all night, I would beg/scream him to be home at a certain time. If he said no, I begged or screamed louder. I aimed an arrow at his achilles heel to make him feel guilty. And 100% of the time, to avoid conflict, he would tell me what I wanted to hear so I could go off happy.
And then he'd do exactly what he wanted anyway.
You asked:
Quote: And I thought what could I possibly do to be that person that he would NOT (wouldn't dream of) lying to?
This is going to have to work itself out over time. This dynamic is still present between the two of you, and you are going to have to be the one who lets it go so that the boat can turn around. It took months (and I'm talking a good 6 in my case) for me to make a conscious effort to stop making him aware of any consequences of his actions.
THEN I started seeing results. My words were no longer working, but my actions were speaking plenty.
I also noticed that you said your H fears you being upset. Well, Sting and Mr. Wonderful fall into that category too! They feel they can't handle any other emotion but happiness coming from us. And part of it is our own fault, because our messy displays made them feel inadequate and ill prepared to deal with them.
So it is also up to us to stop the behavior.
Setting the boundary will come in good time, H2H. But right now, you are both still new to this game and are very used to reacting to one another. When you start responding rather than reacting, you're going to be amazed at the results.
Meredith and I have both learned--the hard way, of course--that it takes a lot of willpower and self control not to point out the obvious and feel the need to address every issue at the time it presents itself. This is where we both get into trouble.
We've learned to force ourselves into a timeout of sorts--giving ourselves the time to really reflect on what we're seeing, what we're feeling and what we ultimately need to do about it.
She was a little skeptical of Underdog's Overnight Rule when I shared it with her months ago. That meant I slept on issues that bothered me. I literally forced myself to wait 24 hours before I gave myself permission to address Mr. Wonderful about the issue that was plaguing me.
IF after 24 hours I still felt the issue was important enough to address, I did it. The difference in 24 hours was stark: the issue was still present, but the emotional variable was gone, and we were able to discuss the problem easily and with a solution. FAR different than our previous interactions.
But let me comment here and say that only 5% of the time did I feel the need to address the issue du jour with him the following day. The timeout gave me some perspective and a level of understanding I never had in the heat of my emotions. I learned that time gave me wisdom.
And so did Meredith.
I'd be willing to bet you big money that if you would stop setting yourself up, he will stop lying to you. We don't know what he feels his payoff is by lying to you, especially at this part of the game. I think he is just used to acting mechanically now, though, and it's a method that has freed him from the emotional barrage when you perceive him to be lying.
One side note. After the 6 months of new responses from Mr. W. had passed, I finally felt enough courage to address a big issue of mine with him. We had been able to successfully resolve conflict, so I had time on my side.
My issue? His former unwillingness to let me express my feelings. But I will say that I had a captive audience.
I explained to him that I should be permitted to express disappointment or hurt (or any other emotion) without fearing him running away from me. I asked him if he would let me take responsibility for my emotions... letting him know that I don't want him to attempt to fix me, but just let me express myself.
He was very much apprehensive about this. But I asked him to trust me. This proved to be a really good turn of events, because when I had to address him on how I felt about his move into a bigger apartment, he let me cry and tell him how I felt. (I got flowers delivered to my office that day as well.)
What I'm trying to say is that this all takes a lot of time and effort, H2H. These dynamics took years to build, so they are going to take time to change or break. Nothing is impossible. But I promise with all my heart that if you force yourself to be patient--with yourself, him AND the process--you will see changes.
Mine were drastic. But I was absolutely determined to give this M a fighting chance. It was really hard to change, sweetie. I fought it every step of the way. But eventually, I figured out I was backed into a corner and had to do the work.
I decided to spend less time fighting the process and more time changing my behaviors. The payoff is worth it.
Now, it's time to get ready for bed!
Nighty night to all in the deep blue sea. Just keep swimming!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: They feel they can't handle any other emotion but happiness coming from us. And part of it is our own fault, because our messy displays made them feel inadequate and ill prepared to deal with them. So it is also up to us to stop the behavior.
My H is this way as well. He never (to my knowledge) lied to me before his A started. My huge and messy emotional displays at that time created huge messy emotional displays by him in return... and lots of lies cropped up to avoid the huge messy emotional displays, the conflict, and the reality that HE felt what he was doing was not acceptable behavior for a married man-- the factor of protecting himself from himself as well from conflict with me.
At one point, he flat out said to me: ask me no questions and I won't lie to you.
What I finally did to set a healthy boundaries around the lying (after the yelling at him not to lie failed miserably) was to point out that I believe dishonesty is really destructive in relationships and that I respected him enough not to lie, even when things were painful. I asked him to treat me the way that he'd been treated by me. I also made it clear that I would call him out on a lie, and the number of them dropped dramatically.
It seems he GOT that.
I have only had one slip-up messy emotional scene since then. Unfortunately it was a big one in which I did dole out the consequences. Learning how to stick responsibly to your boundaries and not react is a process we learn and sometimes we screw it up.
Quote: Meredith and I have both learned--the hard way, of course--that it takes a lot of willpower and self control not to point out the obvious and feel the need to address every issue at the time it presents itself.
This, I think, is also a process you learn over time, and one of the biggest things I needed to learn to do. It is really tough. I can say I am finally there. My H helped me get there by a few times saying "don't you think I know that!?" And then I would stop-- of course he knew what I was pointing out... he was just not responding to it in the way that seemed logical and right to me. So what was I really doing? Anyone suspect I was trying to control outcomes of the conversation? Hmmm. But I only got there by writing everything down. I started pointed things out to myself on paper and then was able to see it from different views and finally let go of it.
Quote: I decided to spend less time fighting the process and more time changing my behaviors. The payoff is worth it.
Yes! It is truly amazing how your interactions begin to change completely when you start taking this approach.
I think your post illustrates clearly Michelle's concept of "If they're not deaf, they hear you." I'm sure that your H and Mr. Wonderful heard their moms too... but that doesn't mean they have to agree with us.
But I have to say that after all this time, I like not having to be the one who has all the answers. I'm amazed that Mr. W. actually has good skills in conflict resolution! After all, he's the project manager for a really large group of people--and I always wondered how he could handle a vast quantity of petulant and petty people but not me?
I never will...
So off we go, trying to be honest with ourselves and everyone else without jamming our will into every R we have.
Have a happy Mother's Day!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
This thread is a godsend and so interesting. Some really thought provoking concepts and helpful information comes out of all the posting that goes on here. Thank you all for hosting this great contributory event on the BB!
The contributions do make this a great resource, don't they? I hope everyone keeps jumping in. We all can certainly learn from each other, can't we?
Myrrh, I know you're out there! Hope you're finding your way. I know you will.
Well, I have thought a lot about all this today, and will attempt to respond and dive deeper.
Quote: I see the troubles you have with his lying as being systemic: that is, he lies to you to make him feel comfortable in dealing with you.
Yup, he's not a pathological liar. And it would be very fair to say that dealing w/ me was not easy... Lots of control issues & fear of abandonment, failure, & rejection. I haven't figured out where this all comes from, but there they are deep w/in me.
Quote: It took months (and I'm talking a good 6 in my case) for me to make a conscious effort to stop making him aware of any consequences of his actions.
I get it. I'd say I've been at it for a little over a month since I found DR. And last weekend I think I got it when I asked him 'what's w/ the dread in your voice; my feelings aren't going to be hurt one way or the other' (the details are on my thread). He responded 'wow, i'm really impressed. you're right.' It felt so good to let go & to have him immediately acknowledge that I had changed.
But we all backslide a bit, don't we? And while I haven't done anything major, I haven't let go. I'm all wound up in his life/decisions, like a boa on it's prey! Yikes, I hate admiting that!
What I don't quite get is how you 'let go' and 'detach' and still want to reconcile. For example, I don't really care if one of my friends decides to go out w/ other friends, I'm not all wound up in their lives. But I also don't want to live w/ them or ML w/ them. They're just my friend. Won't it always matter to me where he goes & what he does? Or is the key here simply to not let him know that it matters?
Quote: ...because our messy displays made them feel inadequate and ill prepared to deal with them.
Again, guilty as charged. This was a BIG issue for him. He's one of those 'fixers' & my craziness had no fix. I now see how much he likes to do things for me - so the other weekend he really got into setting up my DVD player & changing light bulbs! (I swear I almost fell on the floor when he acted like a SuperHero w/ the ladder & bulb in his hand - never mind that I changed every bulb for the 10 years before that. )
Quote: When you start responding rather than reacting, you're going to be amazed at the results.
Stay tuned, I hope to get there! I will try the Underdog's Overnight Rule, and report back dutifully.
Quote: . But I promise with all my heart that if you force yourself to be patient--with yourself, him AND the process--you will see changes.
There simply is no other cure - I see it, get it, and wretch w/ impatience so, so often! But I have gotten better at not reacting so quickly. I've seen some changes in our sitch, and he has commented several times that he's impressed w/ my change. Which brings up the other part of the equation: Consistency. He has seen me impatient, frustrated & downright nuts so many times over the past 10 years, it will take A LOT more sane, calm & patient moments to water down the past.
If I were stand back for a moment, I think I agree w/ you that it's not quite time to 'officially' set a boundary w/ him. Like everything else, this will come w/ time... I think I need to go back over my goals, and make sure there's enough of the small steps towards the big goals to be able to notice if we're heading in the right direction.
Thanks again for sharing your experience. And particularly for asking the tough questions. I'm too good at avoiding things unless someone puts up the challenge.
Pam- You guys make me feel so warm and fuzzy - I am finding my way - inch by tiny inch. I am still fighting for my M. I don't know why, and I don't know what will happen or if I am being a complete idiot, but I am.
I am working on me. I have one heck of an anger problem to conquer - in my first session with a counselor on Friday, I realized I couldn't remember the last time I had gone through an entire day without getting angry. I'm mad all the time! More specifically, I am mad at my H all the time.
180's? Yup, I still have (quite) a few up my sleeve - I have expected to reinvent the wheel in one day, and it just doesn't work that way. I still have some stuff to learn. I have been living in cheeseless tunnels, and wondering why I am so doggone hungry all the time!
So I am still DBing ladies - I know all of you well enough to know that I will have your support and your honest guidance through whatever craziness awaits me.
Myrrh is not yet transformed!!!! I've got a long way to go, and in some ways I can see that from my H's perspective, I haven't changed at all.
Oh, and I will never again assume an exclusive commitment from the H unless we sit down and have an explicit discusssion about it - anyone remeber the Ross and Rachel "we were on a break" fight? Yeah, nuff said - anyway, I am still here - maybe someday I will even start another thread, but not yet - I'm germinating right now. And you can bet when this bean sprout pokes her head above ground again, she will have some things to share!
I love you all very, very much... Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
But I have realized a while ago how destructive this was to me, to our R, and to him. So even though I'll admit I'm not 100% snoop-free, I no longer let him know that I know something.
Betsey 
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