Briget, I hate to think that I upset you! I didn't mean to.
I know that I have very strong opinions. I throw them out here to get the conversation going. It helps to enlighten me on some of my thoughts.
I understand your pain. I have been there.
You need to see that your husband isn't "trading up." He isn't going "up" at all. He is remaining in one level place, while you, on the other hand, are growing.
I know it is easier to blame the other person, as you don't want to believe that the person you love is capable of these actions on his own. Really, Briget, you need to feel sorry for both of them. They are both lacking something in their lives, and they are searching in the wrong places.
I used to HATE my H's OW too. I especially hated that she joyfully jumped into every activity he liked. "Oh you like to work on cars? I would LOVE to help you with that....I LOVE cars...."
O.K., but I have to examine why that bugged me. No, I don't like working on cars! I'm quite sure she didn't either. But, she was willing to meet him halfway in an interest of his. I wasn't. I can't blame him for wanting to be with someone who was enthusiastic about his interests. And, in her defense- who am I to say it was manipulative?
If it was, well, then I just joined the manipulative club too. I need to find those things to connect with my H, and I'm working hard to do so. When I was first dating him, I would have gladly worked on his car with him as a means of spending time together. At some point though, it became more about ME, instead of US.
I don't fault you for your feelings Briget. I just know that the sooner you can forgive her, the better off you will be with your H.
Okay, the OW/OM thing. I am terribly guilty of hating the other woman. I hated her so much that when Betsey told me that there was nothing I could do about the OW, I corrected her by saying I could tie her to the bumper of my car and ram her into the building a few times. Technically, I guess that would solve the symptom. But it wouldn’t solve the problem.
Let me say this, and it may suck and it may hurt, but I will say it anyway. If it weren’t the current OP, it would be another. The concept of “it just happened” is ridiculous. It did NOT just happen. There were reasons and feelings and pain that caused them to respond to the OP or to seek one out. Yes, the OP may be hindering the DB process and any normal human being would have jealous feelings toward the OP. It is completely natural. But that OP is not the cause, nor is s/he the cure. When you want to punch the OP into next year, just keep telling yourself that it if it wasn’t him/her, it would be someone else.
By wasting the negative anger emotions on the OP, you’re wasting time. I did it, too. I wasted a lot of time hating this woman, because it was so much easier to hate her than to hate my spouse. It was easier to convince myself that this woman (who, by the way, I have called a fair share of names in the past) was the problem rather than look at my own contributions to the situation. Those people on the “humorous” thread are still blaming the symptom. And sadly, the people on that BB where the “humor” was posted are encouraging them to do it.
Boundaries were another bafflement to me for the longest time. I’d say, “don’t be late” and H would inevitably, be late. I would say, “don’t lie to me” and H would inevitably, lie through his teeth. I’d say, “you need to contribute” and H would inevitably, do exactly what he wanted to contribute and nothing more. And I stood there going, “why won’t he let me enforce these boundaries?” and get discouraged.
Okay, the key there, as scary as it is to know you are going to piss off that spouse, is to STOP the talking and START the actions. He’s late, I leave. Period. They’ll get it. I promise. Remember the airplane? It will take off when it is scheduled to take off. It doesn’t care about traffic, or anything else. Yes, we can be more flexible, but until we get the respect along with it – we shouldn’t be! Like parenting a toddler, consistency is key. It is easy to give in once or twice, but do it and you’ve signed your own death certificate. They’ll know your weakness and capitalize on that. Believe me, with two toddlers (three if you count my H!) I’ve learned well.
"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
--Agnes Repplier, writer and historian
I didn't see the grand finale, so I can't comment on it. Actually, I gave up on Friends when Rachel was having the baby and the whole thing with Joey started up. It just got too, well, Jerry Springer for me. So now I'm not disappointed, because I hate forced and fake endings. UGH.
Mary, pass the vine this way!!! Free falling can be fun and invigorating... But I think you're on to something with the forgiveness issue. That was my recurring theme in regards to Mr. W. last year. With my D10's pointed comments and the support of my friends who have traveled this path, I took it seriously.
Then I forced myself to remember people who were bitter and angry. I decided that I didn't want to become that person. It's bad for me and brings more bad karma. I've found that when I'm angry, angry people are drawn to me. When I'm happy and full of enthusiasm, those people gravitate my way. Life is too damn short for more negativity.
Pam, I wouldn't have pegged you for a late person. You want the condensed version of what the nuns told us about habitual latecomers? Sorry, but I had this drilled in my head from a really early age... and being the oldest kid, I've always been one who really tries to please others.
They said being habitually late is an act of disrespect--for ourselves and for others. It means that we don't value our word and expectations of others.
I took it really seriously. I also work for a man who is a real stickler for punctuality, and his version is along the same lines as Meredith's: that means being 10-15 minutes early. When colleagues show up late he is less than sympathetic and quips, "You're habitually 15 minutes late for everything. Get up a half hour earlier and quit walking in my building stressed out."
So, there you have it. Sounds like Meredith's attorney put it in a word picture that Sting would understand. Sometimes it takes just that.
Ok, off to a meeting. Make it a good one!!!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: Boundaries were another bafflement to me for the longest time. I’d say, “don’t be late” and H would inevitably, be late. I would say, “don’t lie to me” and H would inevitably, lie through his teeth. I’d say, “you need to contribute” and H would inevitably, do exactly what he wanted to contribute and nothing more. And I stood there going, “why won’t he let me enforce these boundaries?” and get discouraged.
Okay, the key there, as scary as it is to know you are going to piss off that spouse, is to STOP the talking and START the actions. He’s late, I leave. Period. They’ll get it. I promise. Remember the airplane? It will take off when it is scheduled to take off. It doesn’t care about traffic, or anything else.
If I may jump in w/ a question. I do understand the ACTION of leaving if he's late. But I am curious as to what actions you took for the "don't lie to me" and "you need to contribute"?
thanks, lots of interesting stuff on this thread to ponder! -H2H
Wow, you're off to an interesting start with these topics.
As for the OW, I too am guilty... H's friends all refer to her by a derogatory name and for a while, I joined in that.
I have had brief conversations with her and read the correspondence in which she kept encouraging my H not to try to work things out with me, telling him he'd fail at it and she'd like to say otherwise, but let's face it, she couldn't see it ever working and presented herself as the alternative. Yes, I call her behavior manipulative and yes, I do feel sorry for someone who'd see that as acceptable, who would put herself in the middle of someone's marriage in the way that she has.
I don't call her anything now, but I do see her as my C suggests, a very destructive influence in my H's life. In fact, H has said the same... yet she is still around. And that is my H's choice. The OP may be a "symptom" at the outset-- but I believe that at some point, that arrangement becomes a chosen way of life -- for whatever reasons they have. I come at this a bit differently I think because of the detailed discussions my H and I have had about his A with this person, the why and how of it and the confusion and destruction it has created in his life.
Boundaries. Well. Meredith said it all very well. I have learned a lot about setting boundaries during this process. I never felt the need to set them before the bomb... my H treated me with respect and honor in nearly all things. And I've never been that shy about saying when something was a problem for me.
But setting them when you have been hurt, are being hurt, is difficult. I've had to set a lot of them during my S. And I had to go through a period of setting them aggressively and angrily and as a defensive mechanism before I learned to be able to set them with love and a brief and reasonable explanation (rather than the long drawn out defense of them). The latter works much better! I have found that my H responds well when I say simply that "this is a boundary I need to set" (for X or Y reason).
My H has done the same with me, though I think he is still working on using avoidance of a situation rather than setting boundaries within it.
And about the lateness... for me, it is all about disorganization and how much I've put on my plate. There are times when I'm not and times when I am, and when I do a little digging, I find that when I start arriving late for things as a habit, that's a sign I need to slow down and attend to my own self care a bit more.
Usually, it means I'm putting too many other things ahead of taking care of myself and so things are beginning to slip.
Another compound chemical name! Anyway, here are my boundaries on lying and contributing.
With lying, it is tough because my “new and not so improved” H can lie pretty well. But when I know he is lying (as in the other night when he insisted he was at his grandmother’s helping out, and the said grandma later mentioned she hadn’t seen him in weeks) I tell him that I am not interested in hearing his lies, and if he isn’t willing to share the truth then we may as well quit the subject. He’ll interject with, “but I am telling the truth” and I will calmly (calm is key here, because then they KNOW you know) say, “No, you are not. If you are not willing to share the truth, please move on to a different subject. I don’t need a lie for a lie”. I still don’t know where he was, but I wasn’t willing to be played the fool by accepting the ‘grandma’ answer. Do I like not knowing where he was? No. But it drives home point that I know more than he gives me credit for, and makes him think twice on what bull puckey he hands me for excuses. Plus, it leaves them confused and guessing…a good thing for a liar because they’ll dig their own grave with that shovel!
With contributing, the boundary goes more in line with a boundary for myself. I just received proof that this works the other day. Instead of leaving things open-ended, I will put a date after it. For instance, D4 needs an extra set of cheap tennis shoes to leave at school since she is constantly getting hers wet (don’t even ask me why), please pick up a pair for her by Tuesday. Then on Monday, I’ll remind him that D4 needs her shoes. If I don’t get the shoes by Tuesday, I go buy them myself. He sees them in her cubby when he picks her up, and does the mental ‘DOH!’. Yes, I still bought the shoes, but stick with me here.
The more he sees things being done, the less he sees himself doing them and the less he hears me mentioning it – the worse he feels. And, as proven to me this week, eventually he does something about it. I never in a million years thought it would work. But S1 received his new supply of Gerber Graduate meals at daycare before I even knew that he needed them.
The ultimate challenge, which actually is getting to be very easy for me, is staying detached while you want to be jumping through the roof. The more detached you are, the more curious (and worried) they become. I am telling you, it WORKS. I’d never have believed it though…
"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
--Agnes Repplier, writer and historian
I was reluctant to jump into the pool because Meredith is doing beautifully. She has a whole lot more experience across the board with this issue than I do. But since my former control freak self was responsible for pushing Mr. Wonderful into a P/A mode with me, there are a couple things that come barging through my thoughts here.
For the P/A person (and I think this is probably true with non P/A types as well), you cannot say controlling things like that without getting what you expect. Let me explain.
"Tell me the truth" and "you need to contribute" are statements that a parent might say to a child. They are demeaning and condescending, and meant to be.
This isn't to say that the sentiment is not valid. It's how you draw truths and further actions out of them that make the difference.
Meredith could tell Sting a thousand times, until her face turned blue, that he absolutely MUST pick up the kids by a certain time because of X commitment. However, true to form, he would be late. Not because he didn't want to be on time (probably quite the opposite) but because he resented her telling him what he needed to do. Instead of telling her outright, "I'll do what's right and I don't need you to tell me" (which would be assertive), he would tell her what she wanted to hear and then do the opposite.
This only made their cycle spiral downward. He would continue to feel like the admonished little boy and she would feel frustrated and angry and resentful that he wouldn't just do the right thing without playing games.
Sting, like many others, WANTS to do the right thing. He just wants to be treated like a man whose opinions and feelings are valid. On any given day, we could substitute Mr. Wonderful's name for Sting's, because Meredith and I share many things in common with this dynamic.
I was able to turn this around last summer and fall (with a lot of coaching here and off the BB). It was really tough to treat a guy who was acting like an imbecile with any modicum of respect. Frankly, his P/A antics were getting really frustrating and pissed me off.
I finally just had to quit talking and start doing. Ultimately, my buttoned lip did more for my cause than anything else. I let things go that I normally would have assumed--tasks, responsibilities, decisions, etc. Someone had to do them, and he slowly started picking them up.
He's a whole lot more attuned to doing the right thing now that I act like he's trustworthy. Fortunately, it just took awhile of ACTING AS IF I trusted him for me to really feel that way.
Otherwise, Meredith answered your question and definitely to my satisfaction!
She's had a really good week with her newfound detachment and attitude, and I don't think it's a fluke. Her H is showing some HUGE improvements. Life is good in our corner of the ocean...
BTW, I'm reading your posts, and I'm totally amazed at your growth. You keep it up and you're going to have a real success story on your hands!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
It seemed the more I snooped & confronted him w/ "the evidence", the more he lied. So, Trust became a bigger & bigger issue. Now I try to think of what I would be doing to show him I trust him: (snip)
I already know he lies, so why do I have to keep proving it? Why let him know that I know? Clearly he KNOWS when he lies, why he lies, and CHOSES to do so. What's in it for me to continue to snoop & flog him w/ the evidence?
I think what is finally getting into my head is that he already knows WHEN he is lying, WHY he is lying and he CHOSES to lie. This is his choice & it only 'affects' me when I CHOSE to listen to them.
So your action is to let him know that you know. I've done that, and it seems to drive him nuts & I think it just makes him try to be a better liar. So, aren't we encouraging the wrong behavior?
The 'lies' I'm talking about are usually about small things - but what disturbs me so, of course, is that if i can't trust him on the insignficant things, can i trust him on bigger things? What if i'm not so smart and am good at catching only the little lies and missing the BIG ones?
I think detaching definitely helps. But not quite sure yet whether it's best to confront or choose to be unaffected. Will we ever know WHY they lie? Who's skin are they saving, theirs or ours?
Betsey