Relapse and Lost Progress Part II

[44tries2]

I will admit it is a little difficult for me to give you unbiased advice about your sitch, b/c I don't like your WW. She may have issues that originated in her childhood, IDK. She has admitted to knowing what it is and what she does wrong and stubbornly refuses to go get help b/c she doesn't want to "hear about it" in therapy. Okay, but the main thing I don't like about her is that she is a bully. She is a manipulator. Now, call me crazy.........but I have not seen a bully, manipulator, and abuser in a relationship change by having R talks. These type of people do not wish to resolve the problems within the relationship! Do you get that, 44? She is bullying you to move out of the house.

I do get it. But I need constant reminding. Remember, I have been manipulated for years. My brain does not see clearly anymore. I am not making excuses, I'm just being honest that it is extremely difficult for me to remember that she is the bad guy. That she will not respond like a normal, sensible human being. Thankfully, yesterday when she pressed me on the issue of a "plan", it took me an hour per text, BUT. I wrote all kinds of feelings, sensible arguments, expressed my rage, but every time I would edit and edit again until it was DB approved. I erased everything and went with the detached answer. I fully understand that she does not want to resolve problems. I just need to never forget it.

Why are you freaking???? You have been posting about this very possible scenario, so now it's here. And, being 44tries, you want to sit down and design a mature plan............with a very immature WW. What will you propose? More IHS until you get your degree? Which means more abuse, b/c she doesn't want you cramping her style. The more you tell her you need time to finish your course work, or more time to think about things.........the more harassment she's going to dump on you. It is your call, 44. I just don't want you go stick your head in the sand, hoping she'll do "the right thing".........b/c that is not taking action to protect yourself. You need to get a lawyer's legal advice, and I think you said you had the military policy (in writing) about marital separation, etc.

I don't know! I don't wan't to be freaking. I want to feel in control. I am certainly not going to hang everything on hoping she does the right thing. Your advice is wise and I need to seek a consultation. Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow. Which by the way, she threatened again yesterday that she would go to the courthouse then or today, and once again she has not followed through. If I stand my ground, I feel fairly confident she will back down. Maybe I am too optimistic, but she is more bark than bite. She comes home from work and goes on these rants about accountability and upholding standards, etc. She gives me all these mock lectures meant for these "crappy" people she works with. I want to turn those speeches back on her, I mean it's almost a joke. How she can go on about all these values that she is blatantly violating in her personal life. She is very passionate and good at her job. Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.

You say you wish you didn't love her so much. From the time you first joined the board, I did not sense your posts were coming from a broken-hearted man who was desperately in love with his WW. And, I mean no disrespect by saying this, 44. I think you wanted to have that bond with her. You, like most every person, wanted to be a good spouse, get your degree so that you could make a decent living, and have a happy marriage. Your W, on the other hand, had doubts from the beginning, and I think she knew in her heart that she was not committed. I think she likes the initial stage of a new relationship. The flirting, texting, maybe even having sex......IDK. As we have previously discussed, she has some type of fear of intimacy, vulnerability, or something else that prevents her from fully committing to a long term relationship. She'll move on the next OM to get the initial "rush", and the next, etc. Now, whether she has a mental/emotional problem or not...........you do not have to endure her abuse. You said it was hard to "give up" on your W. I think it is hard to give up the dream you had for this MR, which I think we all had when we M young. I simply do not see this situation getting better by you trying to hunker down on your side, b/c the problem is not you. You could be the perfect role model of a H, and I don't think it will change her behavior, now.

If I'm honest, the first part of this is a bit disturbing to me. I mean, I have worked very hard not to be "desperate" so I guess I am glad I did not come off that way. But I am not exactly sure the reason you question my love for my W. Of course, I wish it was reciprocated and that bond was whole and my marriage was happy. And yes I am a practical person and have not neglected those areas of life. But if I was basing this on practicality, I would not be here spending my time hung up on someone who does not deserve it. It is only because of you and all the others and my work here that I am able to see that she does not deserve it. If i came here with sappy sobbing, I would be hit with 2x4s. I do believe if you read my early threads, you would see some. Sure, it is hard to give up the dream I had for the MR. That is part of mourning in a D. But it is not just that. It is about accepting that my W is a crappy person. It is about giving up on the thought that maybe she is just in pain, maybe she just needs help, etc. I really believe in her. And every time I come here, everyone convinces me why I shouldn't and I just fight and fight to tell myself that you are all right.

As for the rest of what you wrote here, I think you are spot on. She clearly has some fear of vulnerability/commitment and enjoys the thrills of a new relationship, partying with friends, etc. She wants freedom and to run away from real responsibility. It is very helpful for you to reiterate that the problem is not me. I agree that no changes on my part alone could ever change her behavior. And I do not have to endure her abuse. That is the part that I can surely subscribe to. I am so angry at this point, I do believe it is stronger than whatever fears I have about pissing her off or sending her to the courthouse etc. This is why I am so angry at my detachment because I still "freak out" about that stuff, but when I go to sleep at night, ultimately I do not. I know who is right and who is wrong. I know it is not me and I am not afraid to make her angry if it means standing up for myself. I told her clearly my priority is to protect myself.

It seems to me that when you have been under pressure from her, it is hard for you to take the lead and make a firm decision that might not align with what she wants. You wait to see what she does, what she tells you, or whatever......you wait for her to call the shots. If she goes into her avoiding routine, then you fall back to the DB principle of working on yourself, etc., etc. I'm going out on a limb to say that some men with NGS, envision that particular DB principle much in the same way they use the title or label of "Christian" as a their excuse to stay with an unloving, even abusive, spouse....rather than lead with a decision or action independent of his spouse. What I'm saying is that this principle is seen as a comfort zone. It even sounds safer. However, these H's struggle enforcing boundaries b/c the lines have become so blurry living in those conditions day after day......and the wayward spouse wears them down. It's like battle fatigue! Again, I am not trying to be insulting.......really! I'm not saying that particular DB principle is wrong, and I'm not saying religion, scripture (or whatever) else is wrong. I'm saying what I've seen in this type of situation where a man who has insecurity issues, and who "freaks out" when W pressures him for immediate action. I see men who back down and settle for a bad sitch, hoping upon hope she will change.

I think this is pretty accurate and can definitely be applied to me, at least in the past. I hope I am at the point where I will no longer settle for a bad sitch. My patience has worn thin, and I cannot ignore the reality that this is happening again. She has even called me out on what you describe, waiting for her to call the shots and wait for her cue. But it is tricky in this case because she is the one who is initiating all of this. How can I take the lead? It does go against the DB principle of putting the focus on yourself and not the sitch. So what do you recommend exactly? How do I call the shots?

44, everything you've said about her signing legal contracts, etc., is true. However, we are talking about a woman who has a problem with commitment, who is totally selfish, who is in rebellion.......and don't forget, illogical. I think men are taking a huge, huge gamble when they invest into a new house with a WW. Even if she was a recovering WW who was doing the necessary work to save her MR, I think it is a mistake..........unless they have nowhere to live and buy cheaper than renting. I would tell anyone who should ask me personally, to hold off the first couple of years that WW is recovering.

I completely understand this, but I don't know what to do about it. Everyone in my life tells me, no you are not crazy, you are not the problem, everything is reasonable. The legal contracts is true, etc. But IT DOES NOT MATTER TO HER! That is the whole problem. I feel like the only thing I can do is keep playing above board, and standing up for my side of these legal contracts, and everything else that goes with them. But like you said if she is not playing by fair rules, what does it matter?? As far as investing in a new house, yes I hear you. If I was asked to put my life savings into it, I would not. She used her military benefits, which are generous in allowing you to buy a house without investing much. It is much cheaper than renting where we are. And at the time, she was all about "our" house and doing it together. What am I supposed to do when she comes back and goes back on everything when she changes her mind. It is not fair, it is not even legal. But it's the same issue, this doesn't matter. I can stand my ground and give her her own accountability speech and tell her tough luck she put herself in this position. Or I can move out, per her request. What is your suggestion? It seems that you think I should move out, but I am not totally clear.

And speaking of gambling.............. On top of everything else, she has a gambling addiction. Yes, she does. In fact, she may not be in an affair, and there may not be some OM. Her texting and sneakiness may very well be connected to something else. Here's what I'm going to suggest. I think you need to do what works for you. Would you do better if you actually had Intell about OM, or would you become more obsessive? You are currently losing your mind and don't even know for sure. Look, rebellion takes on different forms. Waywardness is begins in the heart/mind before it ever shows overtly. Most cases we have on the board does include a WW in an affair, but I have said for years that the WW can show rebellion in other ways........and become addicted to other things. I would say an affair ranks the top of the list, but gambling is not too far behind. In some cases, the WW gets into the GGW lifestyle, starts taking drugs, etc. Sometimes it's the OM that leads her off into other areas, but not always. I'm just saying that you could be looking so hard for OM that you don't see what's really going on.

I completely agree with what you are saying here. I am not yet convinced there is an actual OM. And I am clear on why it doesn't really matter. The waywardness is clear as day, and however it manifests is not ultra relevant. BUT, at the end of the day, an affair IS a bit different than gambling, drinking, etc. Simply in the severity of my response. Perhaps not if she was off the rails, spending every last dime at the casino or going drinking every night. But as it stands, it has not crossed the line to really affect me the way an affair would. And that's why I have been driving myself crazy going back and forth on it.

You said if you knew for sure there was an OM, you'd tell her to pack her stuff and leave. Okay, so get the Intell, and save your sanity. I just want you to remember a couple of things before you do it. Once you read it, you can't unread and it's there in your memory bank forever. Once you read the evidence, it takes much more self control to not look again, and again, and again........better known as "snooping". It may sound more like a play on words, but some distinguish gathering evidence or Intell apart from daily snooping. As one of the guys told you, once you have evidence, don't keep going back to see what they say the following days. It is very addictive behavior, and only you know if you can handle it.

If it is okay for me to do from a legal standpoint, yes I would tell her to leave. I run the risk of her not paying the mortgage or other bills, but she is legally obligated to do so. Part of her paycheck is designated for me and the house. And if she is committing adultery, she has no ground to stand on and I could report her and cost her everything. She knows this. Of course I doubt she believes I would ever do it. But if it came to that, I would. This is why I say she is bark over bite. Anyway, I would need some kind of evidence. From what you said, it sounds like I need to get intel. I have no concern I would be tempted to go back for more. I am only concerned with knowing one way or the other. I am all too aware that it cannot be erased from my memory. That is enough for me to keep it to the bare minimum. I cannot emphasize enough how much I do not want to allow her to cause me any more hurt than she already has.