I have been following many of these conversations regarding "Passionate Marriage." I find the discussions about Differentiation and Validation (self-validation) quite fascinating.
Part of my initial counseling (when my wife and I started having intimacy/sexual issues) was to deal with a lot of my own need for validation. I have to say that breaking free from many of the ties that bound me to being "needy" in this was was one of the single best things I have ever done for myself. Another one of the great things that came out of this was the ability to not make myself responsible for her "issues" nor to take her reactions personally. I will be eternally grateful to my counselor as well as many of the people on this board for helping me get to where I am today.
My struggle now is where to go from here. I know where my boundaries lie and I know what I want for myself. I also know that I still have more to do with myself (hehehe) but I feel like something BIG has happened with me. And I think that something BIG needs to happen with my spouse or we just simply won't be playing in the same ball-game anymore. Obviously, I have no control over what happens for her but do I simply go out and make things happen for myself? Even if it means leaving my wife "behind" as it were? I suppose that is the very definition of differentiation but what do you guys think?
I guess I have to do what I must do and just hope that what I do will help my wife more than it will hurt her in the long run.....and then....there is still that sexual desire. That pesky desire that has nothing to do with validation, procreation, needyness, or anything else other than just wanting to BONE with the woman I love!
I am suffering from the same level of confusion. If I am able to not expect validation from sex with my H and I am able to love and accept myself for the HD woman that I am and I am able to communicate to my H that I have certain clear cut expectations for a marital relationship, where do I go from there?
If he says "I don't think I can handle that" or " I don't want to do that", do I say "Fine, I'll file the papers tomorrow." or "Let me know when you can." or what?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Guys (and gals), there's no magic here. It's a process. Getting from where we are to where we want to be takes time. It isn't just a matter of saying "here, these are my expectations... meet them!" It's opening a dialog, building on a foundation, getting to know yourself and your partner. It's a voyage of discovery. The key is to let go of the "neediness" of wanting your PARTNER to validate your SELF, and be willing to validate your OWN self. Then, when you can stand on your own emotional legs, you have more to share with your partner. The other thing is, people naturally shy away from intimacy, because it's uncomfortable to get that close to anyone or let them get that close to us. So each partner will have to go through a period of re-acclimatization, getting used to the "new air". It's a process. Eventually, it may come down to a choice between either staying married or not, but that's up to each individual situation.
Quote: Yes, but what about when it is no longer about validation or neediness? That is what I am musing about.
It's then about holding on to yourself while assert what you want out of the relationship. And by assert, I mean that you state what you specifically want in terms of ML, frequency, style etc. Let her her know she has a choice to do it or not and that you will not get pissy if she doesn't but that you will continue to evaluate the relationship according to these (excuse this word..I couldn't think of a better one) "requirements". It will really help to read PM because Shnarch makes it much more clear than any of us can. It's tricky. At one point in the book he says that your partner might think you are trying to destroy the relationship and if you hear things like that, then you are effectively differentiating. It's a scary idea because it almost sounds like you should play "chicken" with the marriage but if a lot of other support mechanisms are in place in your relationship, it won't feel so dangerous. I'm now under the impression that through this process, the "truth" about the future of your relationship will expose itself and you will find comfort in any decision that you make at that point.
-Dave (whose brain in spinning)
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I'm now under the impression that through this process, the "truth" about the future of your relationship will expose itself and you will find comfort in any decision that you make at that point.
This theory of "differentiation" reminds me of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. I understand it when I'm reading the book, but can't keep a working model of it in my mind.I guess I'll have to keep reading and re-reading.
NoMojo (who was a Physics Major for 6 monthes)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Get the book and read it. You have nothing to lose, and possibly something to gain.
As a last ditch effort, save your pennies and haul your wife out to Colorado to see Schnarch. Or, he does do Couples Retreats, which you might be interested in...
If those two things don't work, I have no CLUE what to tell you, and I will keep my mouth shut forever when it comes to your sitch. Promise.
I have already read the book twice....but that was a year ago so maybe I'll read it again (I really can't even begin to explain the difference reading that book made in my life). My wife tried to read it too but she thought it was too complicated, (I am pretty sure she was just being lazy though, she is very intelliget...she married me didn't she??). :-)
Anyway, my situation has DEFINITELY improved over what it once was. My wife (and I) has come so incredibly far since we have been together. I know there is no way to know how it will all end up.
I am no longer looking for any advice. I am still increasing my knowledge but over the past couple months (maybe I should say years) I have become certain of what I need to do for my marriage and what I need from my marriage. I know where my boundaries are and I have grown a backbone about them. The only thing I can really do is just be honest, supportive, clear, and hope that my wife will be able to come to terms with me and my boundaries before it is too late.
However, I am curious to know what you guys think about the original point though.
