Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?)

[hoosjim]

So. back from vacation. W and i did discuss this issue, though not sure it is completely resolved.

When I went to pick her up from work on thursday, she is sitting on bench outside work, stifling tears. She gets in car and i can see she has been crying. I ask her what's up. She says, through tears "I've been crying on and off all day, trying to figure out for the past three days why you are shutting me out right now, and..." (And i have been, I've been curt, somewhat cold, not as responsive as usual, etc.) So, although i still had not intended on talking about it at that point, I interrupt and ask her "You can't think of any reason why?" Her answer: "Well, all I can think of is that bff and gf and I went to ____________ (OM's old bar where they used to hang out, and where i hung out from time to time with OM before the A started) for just an hour last weekend after dinner, but I didn't think it was a problem, i thought we were past that, and then i was going to tell you and then things with the kids got crazy [they did] and i didnt want to drop that on you in the middle of that..."(etc etc etc.). To which I respond: "I asked you twice what happened to you and where you went and you STILL didn't think to tell me you had gone there?" To which she kind of hems and haws about "didn't think i had asked her where she had gone" (which, after reviewing my texts, is TECHNICALLY true as i had just noted her phone being off and asked "what happened" to her. Whatever. We also discussed her being out with bff as historically being a cover for bad behavior and OM (or at least that bad behavior tended to arise around bff, and i specifically say (without yelling) "I am getting really really ***king tired of the common denominator when all these incidents happen being your bff... really getting tired of her involvement." Also that that scenario is one that is STILL one that raised painful memories for me (she said she didn't know that, thought we were past it) and that "level 2" of that dynamic is when she is out with bff and unreachable... as she was on this occasion and of which she would have been reminded when her phone came back on or came back in signal range (she claims it was on the whole time.) Level 3 (or DEFCON 1) of that dynamic would be the two foregoing factors AND she is secretly at the OM's old hangout/bar. She repeated again that she was going to tell me but just couldn't find the right time, and I asked her how she thought i felt, not knowing she had gone there and, under the circumstances (out with bff, unreachable) discovered ON MY OWN that she had gone there without telling me. She responded, through tears, "very hurt, horrible... I'm sorry.. I didn't think it would be a problem." She kept coming back to "There was nobody there, you know he lives far far away now, and nothing happened there" to which my response was "Your misunderstanding the bigger problem, which is that you should have told me. If you had told me ahead of time I would have said 'great, have fun, bring me back some wings to warm up tomorrow", but by not telling me and going there in secret you really damaged the trust i have for... it's changed the way i feel about you right now." To which her response was "I don't really think you would have been "okay" with it ahead of time".

So here is my problem with all that: either she knew it would be a problem for me ("I knew, no, wait, i FELT you might be troubled by me going there") and went anyway in secret, OR she didn't bother to think about how it might affect me which means she is being pretty carefree/callous about protecting the MR. If she knew it was problem or even might be problem for me she a) shouldn't have gone or at least b) should've talked to me first. Seems like she is trying to have it both ways. She "didn't think it would be a problem" but then "thought about telling me but didn't want to tell me during a bad time with the kids." She was also crafting her words carefully, trying to backtrack from "knowing" I'd have a problem with it to "I didn't KNOW you'd have a problem with it but i had a little bit of a feeling that you might and i should tell you." Basically, she's caught in the lie/deception.

So, IDK. I don't think anything happened other than that she went somewhere she should have told me about first, and that she probably thought "easier to ask forgiveness than ask for permission." Im sure she feels bad about it but not sure if it because she hurt me and the MR or because i pushed her away emotionally for a week and she felt isolated/alone. All that said... I am NOT over it... I brought it up again obliquely over the weekend and she said "I thought we were okay now" and I kind of let it drop... but I am not "okay." We are doing better "intimately", talking and flirting some and going out, and I am trying to re-establish that closeness with touch and holding and the like, but i am not really feeling it yet. We haven't had sex since the night after I returned home the previous week (two nights after she had been out with bff and gf and she was EXTRA affectionate when I got back. Still burns me to think about.

A new person on the board could read all your threads, and I think they would see a local place that seem to be a hot bed of temptation. I'm talking about your favorite bar. Now, you have defended it to the sky and back, but the way I see it, neither of you should be going there. As I recall, you stopped posting when the subject turned on you a female bartender that worked in this particular bar. And this was right after reconciling with your W! You thought it was kind of funny and brushed it off, and that's when you stopped posting.

So now, your W is still going to that same bar? Like, she goes there alone? I know you wrote extensively about how that was your favorite hangout, etc., etc. It just seems linked to several things that has happened during the past, and maybe currently.

Just to keep the geography straight, and because i know you follow many different people's sitches on here: There are two bars-- 1) OM's bar/hangout, where i used to go from time to time with OM, my former friend until i found out about his A with my W, and where W and bff had numerous meet-ups with OM and his friends during the course of the A, and then 2) "My bar" The patio bar somewhat near to my own neighborhood where I started going as part of my GAL and "get out and meet people" efforts and eventually became a regular there. I am still on good terms with the owner and several members of the staff. W would "drop by" and visit or temp-check me from time to time during the A and before we reconciled, but that was MY hangout, never frequented by OM. Neither me nor my W have been to OM's bar since the A ended and we reconciled, though we had discussed going there together as a "take back", and I have come close to ordering out for wings from there and going to pick them up, and have told W so, though had not yet done so. This was the first time either of us had set foot in the place since the A. MY favorite hangout had been and still to a degree is bar #2 (My Bar) which is the bar where the attractive younger woman tend bar... and Good point about that (though that was not why i stopped posting for a while, that sort of happened on it's own)-- yes, that was and has been a challenge for me. I had continued to go there, sometimes actually with W, sometimes with other friends for happy hour... and found myself getting a little too close to said bartender-- she is very friendly, very pretty, very smart (a doctoral candidate graduating at the end of the summer)--a temptation-- and while she hadn't said or done anything that might have been taken as an overture since that night a few months back, it seemed we were finding out a little too much about each other, which was pointed out by my one evening to W when i mentioned something about her "Oh, _________ was saying she's had some experience with that." Hadn't really resonated with me until then, but i realized that's exactly what happened with my W and OM-- letting someone of the opposite sex get too close. So, now, I don't go there except with W and, preferably, a whole group of friends, ideally other couples.

During the time when your W was staying for the wine down after work, she again, seemed to see nothing wrong with it. If it had continued, I think she was on her way of allowing things to really get out of hand. (Of course, this was before you reconciled). So, she has to stop taking part in these types of settings. I think we've talk before about how she sees no red flags or lives by certain boundary lines........and this gets her into trouble.

Part of the reason all of this is so disconcerting is that everything HAD been going so well, and she HAD been behaving so responsibly. She herself decided/realized that the after-work wine-downs were not an appropriate/healthy atmosphere for her to be in, so she has stopped going... the doctor plied her with a couple of "gift" bottles of wine from time to time for a few weeks after she stopped, but she just brought them home for us... So he stopped. He is somewhat colder to both of us now and I think it is pretty clear what his intentions were all along. At any rate, W doesn't go nor ask to go to those, and she includes me in all work functions that she does attend. She also had not been pining after bff. As I mentioned, she had had a "Trial visit" about three months ago with one other girl (whom I basically trust) and she showed exemplary behavior-- constantly texting me, letting me know what they were doing and where they were (i double checked all of this last week after the recent incident), didn't get drunk, and came home early and made a date for us even though the other two wanted her to stay. She continues to show me the kind of respect and affection that she almost never did before, and all seemed well. Really a head scratcher why she did this, and i hope it wasn't a "thrill" that she'll want to repeat.

So, let me ask if you and your W have been attending Church regularly? Is she getting good food for her soul? This may sound preachy, but she needs to be around sources of good influence. Make friends with people who don't go to bars to hang out.

So, this is both a positive and a potential sticking point with us. She is definitely a person of faith, definitely Christian (which is one of the reasons i ended up with her-- my former GF at the time i met W was an avowed atheist, and I have always been a person of faith even though my adherence and practitioning have waxed and waned, I always knew i believed and always had that faith and it was always important to me, so i knew it was not going to work out to a MR for me and my GF, and I heard my W say something not long after we met which made me realize she WAS a Christian, and that was one of the things i found attractive about her)... BUT also definitely Roman Catholic which, at this point, I am not. I joined the RC church (I was raised Presbyterian) primarily for the kids, but I also was somewhat attracted to the tradition and actually to the inflexibility of the doctrine (God's Word doesn't change just because societal mores do) and it became an important chapter in my spiritual journey. For a number of reasons, however, even as my Christian faith has grown and developed, particularly in the aftermath of the affair and subsequent reconcilliation, my own beliefs and practices have diverged enough from the RC church that i no longer consider myself to be "Roman Catholic" even though i still attend church there with her and the kids. During the period of the A and my own GAL/growth, i became involved, via a good friend (My W's bff's now-XH) with a nearby independent protestant church with a more evangelical bent. Won't belabor all of the specifics, but suffice it to say that the messages i'd hear there on sunday, starting from the very first time i went about two weeks after BD, seemed to speak directly to me-- in fact i am convinced that they did-- and that i was meant to be at that church. The growth and development in my faith and the understanding of some things i gained while going there were instrumental in my own journey and recovery and, ultimately, in the reconcilliation of my MR. I had tried to get my W to go there (as, interestingly, had her bff who at the time was still cohabitating with my friend her then STBXH) and she did view a couple of the Sunday services via TV, once with all four of us (before we know bff's true colors) and once just with me, but said the pastor didn't appeal to her and that he didn't seem trustworthy. Of course, her first exposure was a sermon about MR's and not giving up on them and being committed "to staying" no matter what which, at the time, flew directly in the face of her WW mindset. The church is also much less traditional than a RC church, with people calling out alot in the southern baptist tradition (We are in Virginia) and live Christian pop/folk music instead of the typical choir/organ. I thought she might open up a bit to it after we had reonciled, and i have alluded to the services without directly suggesting we go, but she hasn't bitten. I still watch the services online on Sunday evenings if i have time or, more likely, listen to the podcast of the services later in the week while i am working out. I continue to find them very helpful and inspirational but have not been able to figure out a way to share them with my W. One of the things i find so attractive about this church is that they are VERY big on service and giving back to the community, and also on small focus and prayer groups-- they are constantly doing both of these things, are pretty organized about it, and make it extremely easy to get involved, and these are two areas I have always felt i should be doing more in, particularly service. It is also a VERY positive and uplifting/forgiving atmosphere-- much the opposite of the typical Catholic Guilt Trip (apologies to the Catholics on here) which i feel would really be great for her. All that said, NOT that i have anything against the RC faith in a vacuum-- i know that prople come to God in different ways, and that that way works very well for some people... its just that i have moved past it and have found answers and opportunities i didn't have before at this new place. At any rate... I'd get involved with her at the RC church, too... but just doesn't seem like there are the same opportunities and DEFINITELY not the same level of energy in the congregation. I'd really be open to suggestions, here... and she and i have never been that great about openly discussing our faiths or even praying together outside of church. She tends to be pretty private about it, and has noted on several occasions that she is extremely uncomfortable, even borderline resentful at times at the ease with which evangelicals call out to and converse with God, particularly during extemporaneous prayer, "like it comes so natural and i just don't know how to do that". Obviously all the catholic praying is fairly prescribed, and there is not much opportunity to just "talk to God on your own terms"... and this is the way she was raised and where she is comfortable... Except, obviously, for the guilt she feels at all the "Bad things she has done" (in addition to the A, she, in desperation, had an abortion at a very young age-- freshman in college-- and has never really gotten over the grief and guilt from that). IDK.. like i said, a sticky situation in an area that should, ideally, be an area of refuge/strength for us. I pray for some resolution in this area because i know it could be the bedrock that could fully protect our MR forever... but i just don't know where to go with it. Obviously, any thoughts anyone has on this w3ould be welcome.

It's like the story of feeding the two wolves.

I love the fable of the Two Wolves. I have some Native American heritage back there, my great great Grandmother, so it speaks to me. The second tattoo i got was actually a yin/yang of two wolves, black and white, fighting.