Persistent Endurance (Part 4)

[curtis7]

Starsky309
“I know all about you and _______, and it needs to stop. It's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family.”

Starsky309
Whenever my wife would say "I don't know if my feelings for you will ever return," I would say “I understand that and I'm willing to be very patient in that regard -- it could take many, many months. But whether or not you're willing to do this short list of things that I say I need at this point, to me, isn't about feelings. It's a DECISION that you need to make, if you want to remain married to me."

PuppyDogTails
"I realize that I had my own issues that I need to work on" or -- my personal favorite -- "End your affair and come back to the marriage, and I think you will find me more than willing to work on any and all issues, including my own."

PuppyDogTails
...What helped me was to script out my 2nd, longer, "The Deceit's Gotta Stop" confrontation with my wife. Practiced it, over and over, even out loud, in my office. Rehearsed my body language, and my inflection, and my eye contact. Probably two dozen times. It left me VERY prepared, and pretty calm. A 1/2-pill of my anti-anxiety meds took care of the other half nicely. Another technique I use when nervous is to remind myself of all the ways that the OTHER person ought to really be the nervous one! And that's certainly true in your case. YOU are fighting the noble fight, and your wife is lying and fleeing and generally acting of poor character! Who said this had to be a 15-second script? I'd suggest about a 3-minute one, give or take...

Stop. We both know you're lying. If that's all you have then I have more important things to attend to. Please excuse me...
Get up to leave...

Puppies classic: I have decided I will no longer lie to cover up your infidelity and destructive behavior. When you say one thing and do other I have no choice but to protect this family by verifying your claims... Which did indeed turn out as suspected - LIES. Our marriage has problems outside of your infidelity. Your choice of response to those problems is to make them WORSE by introducing an interloper to cause a great deal of stress and damage to your reputation, my commitment, and your daughter's well being. Marital problems need to be met with solutions - not lies and cheating. Your choice - continue cheating and make things worse, or end the cheating and make things better. The ball's in your court there. Continue cheating and hurting your own children OR make a commitment to solve the problem constructively.

I now know that our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I completely accept my half of the responsibility for that and am sorry for the hurt it caused you. The other half, and your subsequent affair to aggravate those problems is all on you. OR I am willing to take ownership of my HALF of our marital problems UP TO the affair. The other 50% of the marital problem and this hurtful affair is ALL YOURS.

You have a choice to help your family, or destroy it. What you are doing to this family is selfish and irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own the consequences and myself and our daughter will be as far from it as we can get and we won't be looking back. I have things to do that are a lot more important than listening to your excuses.

PuppyDogTails
She squirmed and b*tched and moaned and screamed bloody murder at first, that I refused to sit down and talk to her. Eventually, over the course of a few weeks, as she saw that I was NOT going to be either bullied nor sweet-talked (and she tried both approaches) into sitting down and having an R talk with her, she eventually stopped trying. I confronted my wife within 24 hours of having proof she was having an affair. I exposed her affair within 24 hours to our adult daughters, and within two weeks to her family and her employer. I re-confronted her on Day 60, and laid out a "No More Deceit" boundary, telling her "either you tell our daughters and your parents the truth about your relationship with (OM), or I will." I had evidence, and I told her she had five minutes to decide. Within two hours, she had told all four of them the truth -- that she wasn't "just friends" with OM, and that Puppy hadn't been lying when I told them she was having an affair. About a week later (around Day 70), I filed for divorce, after my wife stubbornly refused to end her affair. On Day 90, she ended her affair, and asked "what will it take?" to reconcile. I laid out my short-list of non-negotiable boundaries, and we reconciled. There were several fits-and-starts after that, with the divorce initially being put on two 3-month "stays" before finally being withdrawn. We also separated for a couple of weeks about a year ago, and agreed to date other people, but that was short-lived, and after one "date" (drinks with a former co-worker) I agreed to move back in with her to work on our marriage. We did some MCing, still struggle with the SSM thing, but have remained great friends and partners ever since, and celebrated both our 25th wedding anniversary and the birth of our first granddaughter this Spring. Interestingly, when my wife tearfully asked for reconciliation (and thereafter), she told me that although she HATED me at the time, and was LIVID with me for exposing her affair, she understood why I did it, RESPECTED me for it, and THANKED ME for fighting for our marriage!

PuppyDogTails
Best to just say "I know all about you and ________, so please don't disrespect me or our family any further by continuing to lie about it." If he does (lie), then put your hand up in the "STOP" position and -- looking him straight in the eye -- say "Stop it. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful not only to me and to our marriage, but to our family. We always taught our kids the importance of honesty; I've decided that WHATEVER happens with us, I am going to insist on that in our family moving forward."And then if he persists in the lie (ex.: "we're just friends"), turn and leave the room.
I had to do this with my wife. From my personal archives:
Boundaries/”Start with the DECEIT”
I would start with the DECEIT.
Once it became apparent in my sitch that my wife wasn't going to end her affair, despite confrontation, exposure to her parents, siblings, our adult children and her employer, I decided that I couldn't stop her. But I was DAMNED sure going to stop tolerating the DECEIT. She was lying to her own parents (whom I love and respect, very much, and who have been like PARENTS to me throughout our marriage), and to our adult daughters.
So my BIG boundary was this:
"I will no longer tolerate your deceit. I will no longer stand idly by while you have an affair with a boy half your age, and then not only LIE to your parents and our children about it, but you make wild accusations about ME, that I'm 'crazy' and paranoid. Well, that's over. You either tell them the truth, or I will, and I will show them the evidence that I have. You have exactly five minutes to decide." And I was dead serious.
btw, my smaller boundaries were:
-- no calling or texting OM from inside of our marital home;
-- no calling or texting OM in front of our kids, regardless of where you are;
-- I will no longer allow our family's finances to be spend enabling your affair; you will have to get your own cellphone, and pay for your tummy tuck Visa payments, lingerie, hair-coloring and what-not.
-- If you plan on coming home after 1am, don't bother coming home.
In your case, since you're living apart, I would start with the DECEIT boundary. It's incredibly disrespectful, and there's no reason why you have to stand there and be lied to, continually.

PuppyDogTails
On “having a plan,” and “The Schmuck Factor”:
I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary. She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.
It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.
Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.
Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."

PuppyDogTails
“I should be clear with you about something. I have absolutely no intention of remaining 'best friends' with you if you choose to end our marriage this way -- by having an affair, running away, and lying to your parents and our children about it. We'll be civil, and we'll co-parent effectively, I'm sure, but we won't be friends. If you decide to end your affair now, however, and come back and work on this with me, going to marriage counseling, each of us addressing our issues, and it doesn't work out -- say after a year -- and we choose to divorce, then yes, I could see a time where eventually we could become good friends again, even though it won't be the same. But not what you're doing now, I'm sorry. This is NOT how friends treat each other, and I respect myself too much to put up with a so-called 'friend' who would do that to me."

PuppyDogTails
“Wife, you say you want space, and a formal separation agreement. And I know you have some legitimate complaints about my role in the dysfunction in our marriage. I acknowledge that, and as you know i am working on my issues, and I hope that in time you will learn to trust that my changes are for real.”
“I am willing to go to marriage counseling with you to try to save our marriage. I think we may both regret it someday if we don't do everything we can to try. But I'm not a fool, and I need to be clear with you. I cannot respect your decision to cut-and-run like this, and I damned sure can't respect your decision to involve a 3rd person in our marriage. (at this point she will try to stop you, and lie to you). Put your hand up in the "stop" position, and say "Please stop --we both know you're lying to me right now, so let me finish.
“You need to know that I will not share you with another man, and I will not be your friend if you choose to end our marriage this way. Whatever is going on with this guy, it needs to stop, but I realize that I cannot control you and I have no desire to. Just know that I will not be agreeable to a separation until such time that you've REALLY worked on our marriage with me, without the involvement of a third person. If you refuse to end that, then I will have no choice but to protect myself as much as I possibly can. I do love you, but I won't be made a fool."
And then I'd walk away.
If she tries to deny OM, say "Please stop lying to me. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage. When you're ready to speak to me honestly, we can continue the conversation. As for the legal stuff, I think that would be best if we left that to our attorneys."
That's what I would do. And then I would spend the next two weeks finding out everything I could about OM. Who he is, what he does, is he married, what it is he does that attracted my wife.
I would combine a hard legal stance and hardline confrontation/exposure, with loving detachment, GAL, 180s and working on my own issues.

[curtis7]

Squiggy
"This is new territory for me. I believe that I am giving you the space you asked for. As for open communication, I am ready to listen if you would like to talk."

Zues126
Myself, I wouldn't remain with someone that had cheated and not recommitted. I would distance myself and then explain to her that as much as I wanted the M to work she had opted out of the M and that 'not sure' was as far from a commitment as 'I want a divorce', and that I deserved a committed partner that was willing to fight for the M and to regain my trust. Since she can't provide that I am going to be taking steps towards physical separation and will be filing for divorce. This wouldn't be a bluff, I wouldn't be willing to live with that. If she changes her tune I'd listen to what she had to say, but if she blames me for ruining any chances I'd keep walking all the way to the court because that is f'd up.

Ctflor
"I will not have this. You cannot communicate with her and be with me, period. You cannot see her, cannot work with her, all of it must be cut off or that is it".

Wonka
I am going to reiterate this only once more so that my boundary is abundantly clear to you. It is inappropriate and disrespectful for a spouse to bring a third party into the M. It does not work for me to live in an open marriage. I make no apologies for attempting to protect our marriage from an interloper. If and when you decide to end things with the OM, I'd be ready and willing to work with you on rebuilding the marriage. Until then, I will be cordial with you on logistics regarding our children.

TxHubby
What turned the tide for us was first, exposure, and then I finally said I've had enough of this. You're not sure about me after 26 years of love, caring, loyalty, etc.? Well fine, I'm done. I'm moving on with my life. I don't care what you do, I'm not pursuing you any more. Have a nice life. Whatever was left of her MLC disappeared in a microsecond and all of the sudden this woman that wasn't sure about me couldn't bear to lose me and she knows she screwed up and she only wanted me, blah blah blah.

TxHubby
No problem. I've found that a lot of us need tough love in these situations. The "I can't decide" sh!t that comes out of cheaters mouths really pisses me off. We are all people of worth. You can't decide about me after 26 years of loyal, loving, caring marriage together? Well then screw you. I'll decide for you. I'm moving on with my life. I want you but I don't need you. I'll be fine and I'll meet someone great who treats me like I deserve. I took that approach and it instantly killed her MLC. Their AP's are never the better choice. Their AP's are the kind of people who get involved with married people so you're a way better person than they are right from the start. Honestly, once I removed myself as one of her choices, and even started talking to other women, that did the trick. We're still married and I love her deeply but she's now fully aware that I want her but don't need her.

TxHubby
She wants to live a fantasy. Real life isn't near as glamorous and is full of challenges. Hopefully she wises up and realizes fantasies are just that and real life is whatever you make of it. I hope she realizes that before she ruins the best thing in her life.

TxHubby
No. I took the wrong approach and went passive, so many here are doing. That was failing miserably. OMW found out and had the guts to explode the whole thing. That did the trick. Truth be told she had no interest at all in saving her marriage but it did cause her own wayward spouse to go NC with his AP's and beg and plead for her to take him back. That's the desired result for any betrayed spouse. Now I swear by exposure. I didn't have the guts or wisdom at the time to do it myself but if I ever found myself in a position like that again you better believe I'd expose to the world. Not in a mean way but in a we're having this crisis in our marriage and I need all your help in helping us get past it and heal from it as a couple. Affairs are absolutely dependent on keeping them a secret. Once they're exposed they can't survive. That is when the fog dissipates and you can work on fixing the marriage. It is not guaranteed, nothing is, but it's your best chance.

Mowgli
I realized that I had been living my life passively and letting the winds take me where they wanted. I realized that I had been letting people pull me in 20 different directions and that I had not only lost control of my own life, but that I was actually afraid of taking that control back. Once I realized what I wanted and needed for myself and from those around me, that fog lifted and it was then that I knew I was going to be ok no matter the outcome. I believe that the confidence I found within myself and the changes I had been making the 3 months prior to exposing the A led me to the outcome I experienced. I was ready and prepared for W to up and leave. I had emotionally prepared myself for that through detachment. I still held on to the hope that things might change for us and the path might turn back towards the M, but that wasn't my priority. I understood that my W had to be faced with a real sense of loss before any of that could happen, but I didn't know where that was going to come from. Ultimately, it came from me exposing the A to her, telling her that I would be talking to a Lawyer the next day, but that currently I was content with the living arrangement we currently had (her living downstairs).

Rockedworld
"I know the truth now about you and OW. I want you to know that I am devestated, but that I also love you and I am going to fight for this M. I am willing to forgive you and work through a healing and re-building process, but only if OW is out of your life completely in every way." I was very calm. I was very firm. I was very sure.

Rockedworld
In the days after confronting my H, I focused on communicating to him that I do not want a D, that I am willing to work on our issues, my own and help him with his but only if there is NC with OW. I "kept the road paved" back to the M if that is what he chose, but with the clear boundaries in place. I then backed off, took care of myself and the kids. I let the R with OW self-destruct. Which it did. When OW found out I knew everything, she thought that was her chance to push hard to get H to move out and move in with her. She showed her true colors in not caring about impact on me and kids. This was a huge wake up for H. I made myself "the better option".

[curtis7]

R2C
When you are involved with another woman while still married to me, I feel disrespected. I want all contact to stop. If you continue to contact her or lie to me I will consider all my options, including D.

Sandi2
What is the purpose of confronting her when you already know the truth? Well, I suggest it should not be to "ask" her anything! You look at her face to face (or you can stand up while addressing her) and tell her you know the truth about her affair. You do NOT reveal how much you know, nor reveal your source. If she starts asking, or arguing, or denying........hold your hand up and say, "Stop". Then you state your boundaries. For example, "I will not live in an open M. If contact with the OM does not immediately cease, I will prepare to take steps for separation/divorce". If you are too afraid to say something that strongly, then you could say, "I will not stay in a M where I am disrespected". But let me warn you, whatever you say.......you must be ready to fully enforce your words with action. She will test your words, so back them with action........not more words.

Steady9
People make their own choices, I do not own you, you are free to make your own choices, and I am letting you go now.... It was my tone or facial expression or something that caused her to "believe" me. I did not yell etc.. (I am a novice compared to others here, so just sharing what I did )

CD Bear
"Then all I have to say is this. I will not live in an open marriage. I will not hide your lies or affair. They are disrespectful. I will send you info on a few mediators I have looked into. XXX is the best choice. I will set an appointment for as early in August as possible to draw up our Separation Agreement. I should have all my banking and documentation gathered by then. You should, too. Divorce is my last option. It is clear that it is your first and easiest. What you are doing to this family is irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own it. Perhaps one day we can be friends. I have to go out. See you later."

Coach
Wishing isn't a plan. “Here is what I need in my marriage___________, ___________, _____________, and________________. If you can't respect that then I have decided that I can't be married to you." The blanks are the non-negotiable issues. "I won't share you with another man."Joint decisions on how we spend our money." You then need ways to verify these issues. Transparency: access to each others e-mail, FB, cell phone etc. Weekly discussions about your finances. Find solutions that work for you two. You steer clear of the emotions by thinking thru the issues. Calm, cool and collected. Lead on brother.

Coach
Yep agree with her. "This marriage isn't working for me either. Us in the same house isn't working for me. I don't feel it either. I have been wrong trying to get you to love me, that was selfish of me. I want you to be happy, I want myself to be happy and I want the girls to see and feel love in their home. That's why I have decided_____________________. “
You wife needs to feel you walking away not a fallback and comfortable position. if you can't do it in the same house then make sure you have everything checked off legally, financially, with the girls and you are squared away emotionally. Separation isn't the end.
It's not controlling to say to someone your behavior is causing problems and if it doesn't change it will effect our relationship. I am not trying to change them, it's their choice how they behave.
I want you but I don't need you. I'll be fine and I'll meet someone great who treats me like I deserve.

Coach
Boundaries make people feel safe. A plan followed up with action make people have confidence. Standing by doing nothing except waiting for someone else to make a decision causes unrest and fear. Lead.

Greek
to W: "While I understand and share your concerns, I have decided that time will not build a stronger partnership for us - only committing to make the necessary changes will do that. You are clearly unwilling to do that so I have decided to move forward with making a life apart from you." You could tell her in person, but don't linger. You have to be somewhere so you can't stay. Say it and go. Don't take calls, don't answer texts unless there is a question about kids or money. Do you have L? If not, get one. Start driving this bus. She doesn't think you will. She may be thinking that she has more Time. Absent a deadline, she may never know what she wants. Give her today as the drop dead date. Best case scenario - she moves in your direction. Worst case - well, what could be worse than where you are now?

Pinhead
“I've been thinking a lot lately, and I don't think what we're setting up will work for me. I now realize that I don't want to live with someone that really doesn't want to be with me. It just isn't what I want in life. So, I have decided that we should separate and work towards divorce. I think you should find another place to live as soon as possible, a little after you return from the Couples weekend. We should also tell the girls when you return. Having this linger til the Spring will do neither of us any good, nor the girls. We can work on the finances when you return, as well as figuring out what to do about the house and joint custody. I'm sorry it didn't work out between us, but I have really heard what you've said and realized that maybe this is for the best for everyone. I don't think it's productive to go to see our C in joint counseling since there's no desire on your part to reconcile. I wish that were different, and part of me will always hold on to a small piece of hope, but that's no way to live."

JinBK
Talking about histories in front of each other seems to make us argue. I'd like to do that more in our individual sessions. This week, I would like to talk about our goals and the immediate problems that we are facing. I want this to be clear: my goal for counseling is to save the marriage. I love your family and our life together. Your family is torn apart by these lies and our conflict. This is what infidelity does to people’s lives. It rips them to pieces and puts everyone through unbelievable amount of stress. The most immediate obstacle to us working as a couple is OW. She is and has been acting as a counter-productive interloper in our marriage. I am unable to move forward and discuss any other problems within our marriage until this matter is settled. No one believes for a second that you are not having an affair. I have written down a list of all the lies, the evidence that I confronted you with, and why people do not believe you. You have spent too much time alone in secret, too many messages logged and documented, and too many screw-ups at work for anyone to think this is anything other than infidelity run rampant. I am not going to argue about your involvement with her. You are too fearful to own your mistakes right now and in part I can understand your hesitancy. But make no mistake: no one believes she is "just your friend". No one. Your lies are destroying everything around you. Your career is at risk because of her distractions. Now your marriage is falling apart as well because you went to her instead of here in this office in the first place. I am offering you a chance to come clean and admit to the affair. Once you own your affair the exposure will stop. I will not go to S or anyone else in your work world to expose this ugly mistake. You will, however be honest with your family about the lies and the cheating and you will tell them with me present. If you refuse I will have to take this further into the University and your entire career is then at risk. Infidelity with your students is a serious violation of policy. Infidelity puts projects at risk; you have proven this very much to be the case. In order to feel safe communicating with you, I need you to cease all contact with OW. After today, we have our individual sessions, then come back together. If you are honest and if you cease contact with OW, we can move forward. There is no way to heal with her in the picture. I need you to tell her it is over. I need you to end it in front of me and mean it. I need you to remove her presence from your home, in particular your computer. I need you to share your text messages if I ask. I need you to allow me access to your email accounts. I will be doing likewise. I have absolutely nothing to hide. It's your turn.

Chatterbug
And yes I would tell him. I would say your daughter is having an affair. I am trying to protect my family. I ask that you support our marriage. Support your daughter but do not support ADULTRY. I wish to remain friends for you have become a father to me. Support our marriage. And then leave it at that. Speak from the heart.

GH31
I did the same thing with my own wife and completely agree with you. I meant it when I said I wanted nothing more to do with her and it did scare the crap out of her. In fact, she had run off to OM's house in England and I left her there, flew back to Australia and stopped all communication. 25 days later she (grudgingly) came back.

FightingFit
What worked on me was him telling me outright it was over and he never wanted to see or speak to me ever again as long as the affair continued. I got VERY AFRAID - remember we had kids together and he was basically saying, I will not SEE you or SPEAK to you even in relation to the kids - I will go thru someone else to get to you; I wont TOLERATE you.

TimeHeals
To me, based on my own personal experience and the experiences of a few others, there are two equally fatal mistakes that people can make when their marriage is in a serious crisis (as in basically over):
1. Adopt a fatalistic approach and say, "This is done, and it will never change, and everything happens for a reason, and this is so over and broken it can never be repaired no matter what".
2. Adopt a "bo peep" attitude of denial: "They really love me, but they are lost in a fog, and that's why they are divorcing me and screwing other people, but someday the fog will lift", and unfortunately, when you tell people there may be hope and that the future isn't written yet, they are likely to hear it as "just go into denial, and everything will be OK. After all, an alien took over my spouse, and now they are lost in a fog", but all I have to do is wait and act as if everything will be OK, and it will be.
For me, and this is personal, there was no real detaching really happening until I acknowledged the reality that my wife just didn't love me, and then I stopped waiting for something to change, stopped trying to manipulate the outcome of any of our rare interactions.

That's when it hit me that I am going to be OK, and her problems weren't my problems, and that's when I was able to let go so that it was up to her what to do, and you know what?
She decided to win me over. Who'd a thunk it, eh?

The grass is not always greener. Let me tell you that a stable home environment with a great man is way more important than any kind of great sex life!! Married life changes and the once butterflies in the stomach days are over. But you move to different phases. One of communication, commitment and unconditional love. If you have a wonderful man who loves you and your children you better hold on tight

[curtis7]

RobX
"Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something...."

RobX’s approach:
Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes. You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent. You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent. You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust. For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point? Don't ask for for full disclosure. Do the opposite. Tell her this:
“... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need. I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now. From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that. If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now. If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long. I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."

RobX
Also we will tell the kids that we are getting a divorce, and YOU not I will tell them that you are involved with another man because I will not be the bad guy in this situation, you will take responsibility for your actions and I have no issues about you feeling guilty, that is your cross to bear with them, not mine. I will be civil during this process but that is my decision, I can't go back to doing what I've been doing all this time, I can't believe I've been so stupid and foolish to allow this to continue for as long as it has. We will talk to the kids today after school."

You want to be with someone who chooses to be with you.
You don't want to be with someone who chooses to play games with you & your heart.
You want someone who would want to be committed to you by their own choice, not because they are forced to be with you.

"I get it, you haven't wanted to be in this relationship for a long time, that's why you checked out so long ago, that's why you felt it necessary to pursue another man, I get it, I really understand this now. We both did things to contribute to this mess. I just know that now I feel the same way, I finally get it and maybe you should be with the OM because I haven't been getting what I wanted from you in a very long time and I never admitted it to myself and maybe I need to admit to myself that I want to find someone new & exciting to be with, someone who is honest, shares my same values, etc. I hope you and the OM will be happy together because I don't think you really want to be with me anymore and honestly I'm thinking maybe I don't really want to be with you anymore either. My focus right now is to be a great father to my kids and maybe look to start something new with someone new."

I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.
From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.
If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.
If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.
I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."

Slow is fast, Fast is slow - tattoo this to your foreheads if you can't remember it.

I can't count how many situations I've read in these various forum posts where the LBS is making real progress, their WAS is warming up to them again, calling them, interacting, communicating, smiling, spending more time, doing things together, emailing, texting, etc. And after 1 or 2 days/weeks, the LBS figures it's time to press the WAS for marriage counselling or talking about the relationship and reconciliation. It took a few years to damage your relationship but you figure after a few weeks of peaceful interactions with your WAS that it's time to force them to make a decision about reconciling with you. You are all very "unique" in this respect. You all do this or will do this in your own "unique" ways.

Here's a novel idea.... the WAS that left you because they didn't want to be with you is suddenly spending more time with you, suddenly communicating with you more often, doing things with you, smiling with you, is comfortable with you. Keep doing what you're doing! Don't bring up relationship talk, talks of reconciling, enjoy the moment! Stop worrying about the future, you don't know what tomorrow will bring so stop worry about tomorrow, enjoy today if today is the day your WAS wants to talk with you and share a drink or a meal with you or wants to do something with you & the kids. Be humble and appreciate the time you have with them, don't hasten the process and demand that things have to change and that you need to reconcile at this moment. Consider this a form of dating even if it isn't officially labeled as such. Stop forcing your spouses to have to be with you. If you have to force someone to love you and be with you, do you really want to be with those people? If those same WAS's make moves towards you, to communicate, to spend time with you & your children, to come over, to share a meal, etc. Enjoy that time you have with them, celebrate a success internally with yourself that you were able to accomplish something of such a grand nature when this WAS originally left you and never wanted to interact with you anymore. Stop asking for more, start appreciating what you have and stop believing that you deserve more than what you have - truth be told no one deserves anything, you get what you get in life because you placed yourself on that path to get the results you received. Stop believing you are entitled to something, entitlement breeds resentment and that will lead you down a path of anger & disappointment and poor results.

RobX
"Look, you decided to get a new place and you will have to be a big girl now and figure out how to handle the expense of living on your own. I didn't make you move out. I didn't decide for you to get a new place. You made all those decisions on your own without me and you assumed that you can just demand for me to finance your new life, and you need to know that I won't be doing that for you. Since you made all those decisions, you now have to figure out how to live on your own without my help since you offered the same option to me. FYI - from now on, I will take care of myself and my children when they're with me and you will have to learn to do the same at your end when you have them. You chose all of this, now deal with the consequences."

RobX
Fear.
Fear of Loss.
Crisis.
It's the only thing that gets most people to change.
That's human nature, you can hum and haw all you want about it but that's the fact, plain and simple.
You need to create fear of loss with her.
But not in an a$$hole type way either.
"Wife I've been thinking about our discussion yesterday,
I've decided that there is no way I can live for another year or two with you in this way, it's just not a healthy way to live. I can't live in the same house with my wife while she is actively pursuing an affair with another man, because now I don't want to be with you either, I've finally woken up to this idea. You should be with him, I want you to be with him. But I can't live with you anymore and since you started this process with the other man, you need to leave and a year or two won't cut it. You need to start looking for another place to live ASAP, I'll give you a month, maybe two at the most. I'll help you pack and move over as well. Also we will tell the kids that we are getting a divorce, and YOU not I will tell them that you are involved with another man because I will not be the bad guy in this situation, you will take responsibility for your actions and I have no issues about you feeling guilty, that is your cross to bear with them, not mine. I will be civil during this process but that is my decision, I can't go back to doing what I've been doing all this time, I can't believe I've been so stupid and foolish to allow this to continue for as long as it has. We will talk to the kids today after school."
And then walk away, leave her be and don't get into an argument, let her blab away until she is blue in the face, you remain silent, maintain eye contact during her spew and then walk away, go to work, go in another room, whatever it is you need to do.
Let her deal with the consequences of her actions,
there must be consequences for actions,
otherwise we risk letting people walk all over us and my friend, that is what you have enabled up to this point and it's time for you to change the situation if you want different results.

Robx
"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.
I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.
From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.
If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.
If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.
I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."

Robx
"Look I'm not happy with the current situation, we don't spend enough time together, I have no connection with you anymore and I want it but I'm getting tired of waiting for it. If things don't change I'm going to leave you, I don't want to leave you and I don't want to break up our family but I can't live like this forever. Are you willing to work with me on this or should I just call it quits now?"

Robx
"I've decided that it's time to speak with the children, we're separating and getting a divorce, we need to let them know what to expect, that you'll be living in a different place, I'll be living here, that we still love them very much and we'll do our best to make this as easy on them as possible." Tell her to speak with her lawyer and start accelerating the process of the divorce, there is no use in putting off the inevitable and you aren't living like this anymore. If she is still in the master bedroom, have her sleep on the couch until she moves out, you will stay where you are in that bedroom. Tell her that she can have the OM, you're not the 2nd option backup plan anymore, you're going to start seeing other women and you're going to enjoy your new life without her because she isn't good enough for you anymore, you're done wasting your time, energy, effort & love on someone who isn't worth it because it's your decision to move on.

[curtis7]

AnotherStander
Tell her you know where she was (but don't disclose how you know, it doesn't matter and if you tell her she will just accuse you of snooping like you are the bad guy here). Tell her she's blown her last chance and you are done, you are not going to stay married to a lying cheater. Be ready for her to get angry, if she does then tell her there's nothing more to discuss and walk away. This may be one of the hardest things you've done but it will put you back in a position of power over your life.

The Couples Expert Podcast
There is no one else that is more important to me, my partner, the person I’ve made that commitment to, to spend my life with, to share a life...but I will not share you with another man. I will NOT live in an open marriage.

Lee Baucom
“I will no longer live in an open marriage. I am asking you to break off all contact with other men.”

P_Jam
I love you too and I wish you happiness and I really hope you find what you're looking for. I need this time/space just as much as you and I will not be in an open relationship with you, nor will I be your plan B. I do not think we should co-mingle our lives and confuse the kids. I'm not sure if I've made this crystal clear in the past but... While you are out seeing other people trying to find "Mr- Right" I will NOT BE AN OPTION FOR YOU! I'm going to focus on moving on and working on me. If things change for you and you want to talk about a future then you can let me know. (I'm not 100% sure but I think she almost started to cry here and had to hold it back)

Bustorama
In my opinion, what ultimately really turned things around or brought things to a head, were my trying to move on after all of the above -- a hard core form of last resort technique I suppose (and it wasn't a technique, it really was where I was at). I told her I respected her decision not to work on our marriage, that I would have preferred to work things out, but that I understood that is not what she wanted, and I would move on with my life accordingly. No anger, no threats, no pleading, just I accept this is what you want, I agree with you, and I will live my life accordingly, I will be putting my things into order to file for divorce. Then I said that I would only contact her in the context of emergency issues concerning the kids and I would only respond to her for same (not punitively, just because that's what I felt I needed to move on). And I went full no contact and kept living my life. For several weeks of this, there was no contact at all from her.

Bustorama
"W, this separation situation isn't working for me anymore. I enjoy spending time with you when we are together, but I want more [commitment, love, time together, investment in our M, whatever] from my W than you are giving me. I'm not ok with going on like this anymore, so I will file for D. Can you please pass on your attorney's name to me? We can be good co-parents to our S together and maybe even friends after things settle down."

This separation situation isn't working for me anymore.
I am not ok with being in a M where we aren't [connecting, commmited to each other, loving, spending time together, investing in our M, whatever] or with being outside my family home. I am also not ok with sharing my W another M while she tests the waters. If you want to carry on with him, then it is time that you move out of the family home. I will help you pack your things if that is what you want."

I ultimately told her that I had had enough of the separation, and I accepted that she didn't want to be with me. I said I didn't want to be with her either since I wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with me. I told her I wanted NO CONTACT with her except for emergency stuff about kids to make it easier for me to move on. And I held to that (fairly well) for a few months. Then I told my W I was going to file for divorce, that it was time for me to move on legally.

Unknown
"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

Unknown
I realized it was just a piece of paper and if she really loved me and wanted things to work, she would be at home with me trying to make it work instead of banging other dudes.

Unknown
I have not been living in reality, but fantasy. Marriages are hard, relationships are hard. When we take the right approaches, we can have fulfilling loving relationship. When we accept the reality of our situations we can grow. Let go of the fantasies and begin the healing process and grow.

Unknown
I feel like I don’t know you anymore. Your actions and treatment of me is so far departed from what I have to come to know that I no longer understand your ethical morals and values. I have always known you to be the kindest warm hearted person that goes out of her way for her family and those you love and care about. I feel like I am no longer in that circle of people in your life. I don’t know if you are intentionally trying to hurt me or if it’s just collateral damage because I’m still around you. I have been foolish to think that X years in a relationship actually meant something to you and that I was someone in your life that you wouldn’t lie to and betray.

Unknown
Don’t chase someone who doesn’t want to be with you...especially a spouse!

The past is history, the future is a mystery, and the present is a gift.

Unknown
I want to be your husband, your best friend, your lover, the man you want to share your life with, the man you come to for support when things aren’t going well, the man that you experience all of your greatest moments with. I want you, I’ve always wanted you. I have a great life, but it’s better with you. You are the most important person in my life and I want to heal our marriage. I know you are reluctant, and I respect your feelings. Still, I need to move forward in life. If you don’t share my desire to remain married and work on us, then I will be sad, but I will know it’s time to move on.

Unknown
I have decided that this isn’t working for me either. I have needs that aren’t being met. I want to give and receive love. I prefer that be with you. Based on everything you’ve shared over the past X months, I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been for you to be married to me. If I could do it again, I would have done things differently. I see now that I need to move forward. I wish you the best and hope you find happiness for yourself.

[MrBrside]

I am completely over this. She has had a year since the first EA started, 8 months since the first PA that I could confirm, has been involved with at least a half dozen OM. I’m done. I’ve pushed aside my morals and values for far too long. She’s had ample opportunity to end this behavior. It is now a dealbreaker for me. She can go be happy with OM and divorced BFF, I want something better and more honest and moral for myself and my kids.

Time to work on the final confrontation speech and get D paperwork prepared. Moving forward...

Curtis,

You have spent a lot of time and effort in summarizing all this... After everything she has done / her general attitude, do you honestly believe that a speech based on all these other statements will make a difference ?

You say above that you are "done"... But the fact you have spent so much time planning this "speech" in my eyes makes it look like you are very much still attached and are hoping that your one last attempt at "reason" will shake her from this fantasy or turn her thinking.. Your speech will be based on rational and logic... She is working on emotion. My personal take on this is that if you were detached, you would be spending time with the kids / GAL rather than spending time on the analysis above..

Any speech will just result in her cake eating further.. She may cry and let you what you want to hear, but if she wanted you back, she would come back to you... She is still cake eating and enjoying her new life, even if it isnt what she expected.

Again, this speech you are planning looks like a pursuit to me...

You need tough love with the ex... and on here people also need to be tough with the fellow LBS...

So applogies if this post comes across as harsh...

but

As the saying goes - "Actions speek louder than words"

or as Elvis would say

"A little less conversation, a little more action please"

Get rid of the horse !!!! and either file or at least bag any remaining clothes / items up and get her out of your daily life.. Focus on you and the kids and keep the contact about the kids.. You can do this....

[LH19]

C,

I want to expand on what HM posted. Everything in life is about timing and unfortunately you missed your timing on a grandiose speech you've been researching. What you are planning may have worked in the beginning but right now I am afraid it will completely back fire and end really badly for you. You can't go over for apps and drinks and apartment tours one day and then attempt a scripted ultimatum the next day. There is no way she will take you serious.

Again, let's start with tough love. Trigger goes. No more happy hours and pool parties. Actions that you are done with the bs. Then when your ready you file. No warning you just do it. You can always pull it in the future if you it comes to it.

[sandi2]

Curtis, you may already know that Starsky & Puppy Dog Tails are the same person. His original threads were under the user name Ole Chocolate Eyes. He admits to being a typical nice guy, but I gotta tell ya......he became a superstar in the eyes of those on the board back then, and his words continue on today. He stepped out of his NGS and found his alpha b@lls. IMHO, that's what really saved his M! I respect him a lot, and I think anyone who reads his advice would quickly learn how to approach various situations with a WW.

Of course, Coach & Greek were the lovely married couple on the board, and about the only one I remember where there was no type of affair. Coach was a great leader with simple but wise words.

Now Robx was another one of my favorites. He started off kind of weak and nice-guyish. But man, when he decided to change, he went all the way. He was tough and took no b.s. from his WW. Not everyone agrees with his style, but you either love him or hate him.

I'm just reminiscing about some folks I really liked, and find myself missing them a lot.

[curtis7]

You have spent a lot of time and effort in summarizing all this... After everything she has done / her general attitude, do you honestly believe that a speech based on all these other statements will make a difference ?

You say above that you are "done"... But the fact you have spent so much time planning this "speech" in my eyes makes it look like you are very much still attached and are hoping that your one last attempt at "reason" will shake her from this fantasy or turn her thinking.. Your speech will be based on rational and logic... She is working on emotion. My personal take on this is that if you were detached, you would be spending time with the kids / GAL rather than spending time on the analysis above..

Any speech will just result in her cake eating further.. She may cry and let you what you want to hear, but if she wanted you back, she would come back to you... She is still cake eating and enjoying her new life, even if it isnt what she expected.

You need tough love with the ex... and on here people also need to be tough with the fellow LBS...

Get rid of the horse !!!! and either file or at least bag any remaining clothes / items up and get her out of your daily life.. Focus on you and the kids and keep the contact about the kids.. You can do this....

HelpMe, I don’t know if it will make a difference. What I’ve been doing hasn’t stopped her affairs, so do something different. What I know is that I haven’t given her a choice in this manner before. I am not fully detached. However, I am at a crossroads. If she would end her affairs today, I would be willing to work on the MR. If she doesn’t end her affairs, I’m ready for D and to find someone better for myself and my kids. She has enjoyed the luxuries of extreme cake eating and has not felt any fear of loss from me. Delivering this message, giving her the choice, and following through with actions to show tough love is the next step in my plan.

Bear in mind that I gathered these snippets over the past 6+ months. I did spend an exorbitant amount of time here reading through sitch archives trying to find that magical piece of information that could turn my W back towards me. Here’s the thing, it doesn’t exist. In fact, no one knows what may ultimately work in my sitch or if she has absolutely closed the door and nothing will work. I feel this is a message that I need to deliver to start tough love, get the horse out, limit contact with her except for the kids, and move forward.

I do appreciate having a sounding board in this forum. It really helps the LBS thoroughly evaluate their thoughts and consider the possible outcome of words and actions to assess whether it will move us closer to or farther from our goals.

Everything in life is about timing and unfortunately you missed your timing on a grandiose speech you've been researching. What you are planning may have worked in the beginning but right now I am afraid it will completely back fire and end really badly for you. You can't go over for apps and drinks and apartment tours one day and then attempt a scripted ultimatum the next day. There is no way she will take you serious.

Again, let's start with tough love. Trigger goes. No more happy hours and pool parties. Actions that you are done with the bs. Then when your ready you file. No warning you just do it. You can always pull it in the future if it comes to it.

LH, I know that I waited too long. In retrospect, I would have started tough love immediately after discovering the PA in early December. I had way too much fear and shock from BD at that time. I didn’t have the proper tools or know enough about DBing. It took so many months to get to this point and muster the courage. I agree that I most likely missed the best and several other better opportunities with respect to timing. I encourage others reading my sitch to learn from my mistakes and not to take a passive approach with a WW hoping that they will wake up.

I’ve received so much great advice and support here and one reason why I continue to post is so that others may learn what might work or might not work and have a better shot at saving their marriages. I’ve resigned myself to the notion that a choice/ultimatum such as this may gain me nothing. It has seemed to be the best course of action for many others. Better late than never and knowing that I didn’t give her a direct choice. I don’t see how it could backfire, I’ve already lost her and she’s cheating, I feel I’m already living the worst ending. How much worse can it get?

[curtis7]

Curtis, you may already know that Starsky & Puppy Dog Tails are the same person. His original threads were under the user name Ole Chocolate Eyes. I respect him a lot, and I think anyone who reads his advice would quickly learn how to approach various situations with a WW.

I'm just reminiscing about some folks I really liked, and find myself missing them a lot.

Sandi, yes, I’ve been on the board long enough to know of Puppies multiple aliases. His approach and guidance has proven to be quite successful for many. I agree that Robx took it to a whole new level.

I’m sure you do miss them. Your posts are right there with them in those threads. Those of us going through this now are very fortunate that you still visit and post often to help us out. Thank you!!