I have a question about Sandi's rule number 15. If your spouse is in a talkative mood, should you really not engage fully in the conversation and instead just be short but pleasant?
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15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
Destroyd, I am not sure where you read "not engage fully". The reason sandi's rule #15 is a good one is because it teaches you how to listen. Rule #15 is essentially another take on "listen and validate".
You see, we dudes are fixers. So when W comes to us and starts telling us of a harrowing encounter on the freeway "Guy sped up behind me! Was right on my bumper. I couldn't get over, but was already going 5 over the speed limit. Finally got past traffic and got over, he flipped me the bird as he went by and then cut me off!" We dudes go into action mode "You should have got his license plate number! Called the police! Done this or that." She doesn't want you to fix it.....she wants you to understand how she feels. As fixers we are terrible at empathy. Empathy is the opposite of fixing. Fixing says "I don't care how it made you feel, you could have corrected it by doing A, B and/or C!" She doesn't want that, she wants empathy, understanding, and an ear.
So when she is in a talkative mood, go full bore on Sandi rule #15! Listen. Validate. Engage but shutup and listen! This rule worked wonders in my sitch. My W thought I had been possessed by another being! And she did ask me "what's wrong?" a lot as she was trying to sort out what was different. A huge smile, and "nothing" worked wonders.
So shut-up. Listen. Validate occasionally. Don't buck it because it feels counter-intuitive....that is DBing!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve85, As you know I have been reading through your situation threads, and I came across many posts about you focusing on self-differentiation. Would you mind sharing with me what you have read and done in this area throughout your journey? I really feel like I have lost my identity as an individual throughout my marriage. Once we moved in together, she became my life whenever I wasn't at work. Then once we had kids, my identity became a husband and a family man. Now after the BD, I feel like I have lost my identity. I think that understanding the work you or others here have done to work on self-differentiation would really help me.
FIrst, I would highly recommend doing some googling on "self-differentiation in marriage". There are many free resources online that discuss the concept. But in general you have the overall concept: it is remaining an individual in your relationships. As a husband. As a father. As an employee. Etc......
Losing your own identity is not a healthy way to live. And it will cause your relationships to breakdown. The people in our lives cannot withstand the pressure of having to support the identities of others. Codependency is an AWFUL burden to thrust on another human-being. Your W might be able to handle for a long time, but eventually the weight of codependency will cause her to collapse. And then she will go into survival mode. I believe that a good chunk of the sitches that occur here are due to codependency. Women naturally lose their identity. They get married and take a man's name. They have kids and become a mom. They live from the time they are married until the kids leave the house for others. One day many women wake up and have no idea who they are and that is danger time. And if their husband is codependent, and not self-differentiate, they will rebel against it. It is too much to bear at some point.
Another anti-divorce author (not MWD) told me to read a book by David Schnarch called Passionate Marriage. I couldn't find that in print, but my library had another of his books called Intimacy and Desire. I will warn you, it is NOT a Christian book. It talks frankly about sexual things. As someone that won't even watch an R rated movie, it was a tough read. But he goes into great detail about the need to be self-differentiated to be a good spouse and have a good marriage. That was the basis of my discovering the concept. It was eye-opening...and life changing. And I believe self-differentiation was a huge key to my sitch turning around.
Do some research on the topic. Put some of the concepts to work. You need to be an individual to be part of a relationship.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I have a question about Sandi's rule number 15. If your spouse is in a talkative mood, should you really not engage fully in the conversation and instead just be short but pleasant?
Quote
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
Destroyd, I am not sure where you read "not engage fully". The reason sandi's rule #15 is a good one is because it teaches you how to listen. Rule #15 is essentially another take on "listen and validate".
You see, we dudes are fixers. So when W comes to us and starts telling us of a harrowing encounter on the freeway "Guy sped up behind me! Was right on my bumper. I couldn't get over, but was already going 5 over the speed limit. Finally got past traffic and got over, he flipped me the bird as he went by and then cut me off!" We dudes go into action mode "You should have got his license plate number! Called the police! Done this or that." She doesn't want you to fix it.....she wants you to understand how she feels. As fixers we are terrible at empathy. Empathy is the opposite of fixing. Fixing says "I don't care how it made you feel, you could have corrected it by doing A, B and/or C!" She doesn't want that, she wants empathy, understanding, and an ear.
So when she is in a talkative mood, go full bore on Sandi rule #15! Listen. Validate. Engage but shutup and listen! This rule worked wonders in my sitch. My W thought I had been possessed by another being! And she did ask me "what's wrong?" a lot as she was trying to sort out what was different. A huge smile, and "nothing" worked wonders.
So shut-up. Listen. Validate occasionally. Don't buck it because it feels counter-intuitive....that is DBing!
Okay, thank you for the explanation. That makes complete sense now.
Steve85, As you know I have been reading through your situation threads, and I came across many posts about you focusing on self-differentiation. Would you mind sharing with me what you have read and done in this area throughout your journey? I really feel like I have lost my identity as an individual throughout my marriage. Once we moved in together, she became my life whenever I wasn't at work. Then once we had kids, my identity became a husband and a family man. Now after the BD, I feel like I have lost my identity. I think that understanding the work you or others here have done to work on self-differentiation would really help me.
FIrst, I would highly recommend doing some googling on "self-differentiation in marriage". There are many free resources online that discuss the concept. But in general you have the overall concept: it is remaining an individual in your relationships. As a husband. As a father. As an employee. Etc......
Losing your own identity is not a healthy way to live. And it will cause your relationships to breakdown. The people in our lives cannot withstand the pressure of having to support the identities of others. Codependency is an AWFUL burden to thrust on another human-being. Your W might be able to handle for a long time, but eventually the weight of codependency will cause her to collapse. And then she will go into survival mode. I believe that a good chunk of the sitches that occur here are due to codependency. Women naturally lose their identity. They get married and take a man's name. They have kids and become a mom. They live from the time they are married until the kids leave the house for others. One day many women wake up and have no idea who they are and that is danger time. And if their husband is codependent, and not self-differentiate, they will rebel against it. It is too much to bear at some point.
Another anti-divorce author (not MWD) told me to read a book by David Schnarch called Passionate Marriage. I couldn't find that in print, but my library had another of his books called Intimacy and Desire. I will warn you, it is NOT a Christian book. It talks frankly about sexual things. As someone that won't even watch an R rated movie, it was a tough read. But he goes into great detail about the need to be self-differentiated to be a good spouse and have a good marriage. That was the basis of my discovering the concept. It was eye-opening...and life changing. And I believe self-differentiation was a huge key to my sitch turning around.
Do some research on the topic. Put some of the concepts to work. You need to be an individual to be part of a relationship.
Wow - Steve you should really have your own separate thread here for newbies. A "required reading" as it were. I've learned so much in the short time I've been reading your posts, its remarkable.
I had no idea I was codependent until W said it in a big blowup in December. I didnt even understand what it meant or how I had gotten that way. No wonder my R crashed.
Sobering stuff.
Des - I've been working on it too since March. It's an entire upbringing and adult lifetime that needs and is changing. I am committed to doing it. I hope you have committed too.
Life is so strange in my house. My wife is almost always pleasant to me, but sometimes distant. Except for sleeping on the far edge of the bed, no hard holding/touching, and very few I love yous, our daily life isn't much different. She is generally pleasant to be around. She seems interested in my day and caring. She wants to watch TV with me at night.
Having said all of that, the loneliness in the house kills me. I can't stand being around her knowing that she probably doesn't love me anymore. It eats me up.
I am trying to get a life. I have been working out and playing sports a ton. I am going to go out with some guys this week. But, boy I just want my old life/wife back. I am sure that is how most feel here.
I have really been trying not to put any pressure on her, while at the same time being a loving husband. I think this is loving detachment.
Life is so strange in my house. My wife is almost always pleasant to me, but sometimes distant. Except for sleeping on the far edge of the bed, no hard holding/touching, and very few I love yous, our daily life isn't much different. She is generally pleasant to be around. She seems interested in my day and caring. She wants to watch TV with me at night.
Destroyd, this describes my sitch to a tee once we got past the initial shock and awe of BD. To me this is a good sign that you have a chance to have your W reattracted to you. I just went back and reread your OP. BD was over a year ago?
Destroyd, there are some positive signs here, and a lot of time has passed.
Have I mentioned talk and touch charges to you before? Google them. I think they could make strides in your sitch. You are in unique circumstances since so much time has past since BD. We get newbies here that just got BD'd that are trying all sorts of pursuit and pressure. I think your sitch calls for some potential tests since you have a lot of good signs going on here. She's pleasant. She seems interested in your day. You guys are in MC (does she do the MC homework?). She wants to watch TV with you at night.
Here were some things that helped my sitch:
1) Talk charges. Communication is the key to connected. Think about how you communicated when you were dating (I know, many moons ago!). It was frequent. It was often fun and light. Sometimes it was deep and meaningful.
2) Touch charges. Small at first. Hand on small of bank as you pass behind her. Things like that. Touch is very important, but you have to start small or run the risk of pushing her away. However, you should continue them as long as she is receptive. I eventually moved up to pulling her over to me in bed to lay her head on my chest for a few minutes before she had to get up in the morning, after I was ready for work.
3) Ask her to lunch. Or dinner. Not necessarily a date. I work from home on Fridays during non-summer months. I made it a standing date that we go to lunch on Friday. This has morphed into a more traditional date night over time, but in the thick of our sitch this worked for helping reconnect.
Destroyd, go slow. Have zero expectations. Try to remember to keep things fun and light. Avoid R talks (except where mandated by your MC.)
You've got this!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Destroyd, this describes my sitch to a tee once we got past the initial shock and awe of BD. To me this is a good sign that you have a chance to have your W reattracted to you. I just went back and reread your OP. BD was over a year ago?
Steve, a year ago she told me that she was unhappy with our relationship, but the BD of ILYBNILWY came about 7 months ago. Does this change your opinion?
Originally Posted by Steve85
Destroyd, there are some positive signs here, and a lot of time has passed.
Steve, I so hope you are right that there are some positive signs. My pastor keeps telling me that there are a lot of positive signs, and that I need to keep my head up because God could be slowly doing his healing work with her and I don't know about it.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Have I mentioned talk and touch charges to you before? Google them. I think they could make strides in your sitch. You are in unique circumstances since so much time has past since BD. We get newbies here that just got BD'd that are trying all sorts of pursuit and pressure. I think your sitch calls for some potential tests since you have a lot of good signs going on here. She's pleasant. She seems interested in your day. You guys are in MC (does she do the MC homework?). She wants to watch TV with you at night.
Do you think I should still try these charges even though it has only been 7 months since BD? With respect to the MC, I have slowed it down. I asked for us to take June and July off. We will go back in August. I wasn't seeing any progress. We would go into the counseling sessions, she wouldn't have an agenda of what she would like to discuss and then after prompting from the MC she would (a) reiterate the same old complaints we have been talking about this whole time or (b) focus on how she hates the pressure that I put on her since the BD (ILYs, family trips, modest touching).
She has told me that she is working to fix the relationship. But, I am not convinced. In between counseling sessions, I feel like we make progress, but then in counseling she says nothing has changed. In our last session in May she even said, "I just feel like I am done."
I think that she is struggling with tearing apart the family, and I think she knows that she is suffering from depression. I think that it would be a great sign if she is finally acknowledging that she is depressed, but I am scared that she is going to just blame our marriage problems for causing the depression whereas I feel that the depression is causing the marriage problems.
Do you think I should still try the talk and touch charges? No matter what, I will read up on them. Thank you!!
