If you can't beat em, cheat em (thread 2)

[sandi2]

She asked if I wanted her to move out, I told her no but I wouldn't stop her. She said she wanted to stay, wanted the marriage. I agreed and asked if she'd like to sleep in the spare bedroom in turn, she said no she doesn't want that either. She said she didn't want to make any big decisions until shes on medication, and that she didn't want to leave me with the burden of managing the house alone. I told her she has to do what she has to do.

So..........was anything resolved or accomplished by having this talk? Is she saying she wants to keep the MR as is?

I hate that I have to ride the middle ground of being a strong man that still gives her some cake right now.

Well Oops, I think you are the one who makes the decision to ride the middle ground....or get on a higher level. Frankly, I think you have a problem with the part of being a strong man. Maybe we are speaking different languages, but how do you see being a strong man feeds her cake? She's going to benefit by legally being M to you, whether she has sex or not. She's going to benefit by living in the home with you. She clearly said she didn't want to manage it alone. If you feel you want to wait it out and see if the M will survive, then that's your decision. If you want to keep evidence hushed, that is up to you, also. However, don't complain about riding the middle ground of being a strong man (not exactly sure how you define that). It may be taking all the emotional strength you have at the moment, IDK. Maybe your definition of a strong man is nothing close to your W's definition.

I am speaking as a woman and a wife when I say that we women who love our H's can handle the times he faces tragedy or something (other than his W) that causes his emotions to surface. We don't see that as "weakness". We see that as human, and we can be there by his side to offer compassion, support, and loving tenderness. If our H sheds tears at the bedside of a dying parent (for example).....we don't consider it weakness. What grates against the W is when her H continues to display a lack of emotional strength in his role as the man in the marriage/family. When he gets lazy, or whines about everything being unfair, or doesn't want to get a real job to provide for his family, or he won't stand up to a W who bullies him, or he tries to find a way to get out of fulfilling his responsibilities as the H and/or father. Things along those lines are what women define as weakness in a man. Maybe a better word for some guys would just be "sorry". Everyone knows at least one of these guys, right? Anyway, when this goes on & on and he doesn't shows signs of trying to change, improve or help himself to rise above it, and appears to wallow in in self pity.........and depends on his W to be the stronger spouse, so he can be the weaker.......then, yes, we see him as weak. That's the picture he paints of himself. That's what the W sees.

Now, if he has been going through something mentally or physically, most women I know IRL would step up to the plate. He can't help physical illness, and many women can handle her H's depression for quite a while, before it takes a toll on their MR. But I'm not talking about mental or physical strength/weakness here, and I think you know what I mean. I don't think the younger generation of women will put up with a weak H very long, b/c she isn't as dependent on him to provide, as in previous generations. Women are "empowered" these days .......but they lack a lot of what our older generation had. (Another subject at a later time.) To be brutally honest, I think a lot of women would tell a H who consistently displayed signs of weakness......"He doesn't want a wife, he wants a mother". A wife wants her H to be stronger than she is.....okay? If you guys are M to a strong woman, then you've got to be stronger than she is.......or have a less than satisfying MR.

what's hard for me at this stage is mourning the death of an ideal. I think I've realized that a woman can never love me unconditionally, or the way I want to love and be loved. I will never be allowed to be my broken, weak self around someone.

You aren't mourning for the girl you M, but the idea you won't be allowed to be your broken, weak self around someone........as in with any other woman. Well, you probably need to mourn that idea, alright, b/c you aren't going to be very attractive if you show that side of yourself very quickly into a male-female R. I suppose there are still women out there that would play the game, just to get M, but after the wedding and the real persons reveal themselves.........look out.

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I just want to go back to something you said in the talk with your W, and maybe enlighten or shock & disgust H's everywhere.

I told her I didn't disagree, but that I meant my wedding vows and had never been interested in marriage before her, and the whole point of marriage and the vows is that we admit we're flawed and that we do. not. quit.

Two things I want to touch on, b/c I see LBH's bring up the subject of the wedding vows quite often on the board. First of all, please don't shoot me for getting very real about this. As a former WW, I have a problem with H's pitching it to their WW while they are having a R talk. It doesn't impress her how serious he meant his wedding vows. It doesn't gain him security in the M, if his fidelity is not, and has not, been the problem! If she wants out of the M, or plays the game of "not knowing how she feels" and she is guilty of an A, then she doesn't care how he views his vows. Frankly, if she's not remorseful at the time of the conversation, she doesn't care how he views the vows SHE made. From her viewpoint, it sounds as if he wants to guilt her with that little punchline. As if to say, "Unlike you, I meant my wedding vows". When the H throws the punch about taking his vows seriously........it kind of makes him sound a bit self-righteous. And she hates it. Remember, he's not dealing with a logical thinking woman, and it's only going to add to the resentment she holds. So, that's number one.

The second thing is to tell you that I don't recall thinking about my actual wedding vows at any point during the A. When I came to board, someone brought it up, of course. Did I actually mean my wedding vows when I said them? Of course, I did. Maybe I was too young & immature and believed in the fairy tale version, but never in a million years did I dream I would get to the state of being a WW, and cheat on my H. I was in love when I said those vows. Of course I meant it. I promised to love, honor, and even....obey my H (that last word is usually left out by brides today). I doubt I've made over a handful of promises my entire life, b/c I just don't promise things that I am not 100% positive I can deliver. Yes, I took it seriously. Did I fail? Yes! Did I recover? Yes! Did I need anyone to remind me I had broken my vows? Nope! Some of you may be thinking, "You obviously needed reminding". No, reminding a WW of vows do not bring forth productive feelings when she's acting out in such rebellious behavior. Some H's think if they say something like this, she'll smack her forehead, and make a complete 180, b/c she "forgot" her vows. It's not like she actually lost her memory, but like most things about the M, she has developed a calloused heart ......and has rewritten history.

So, take this FWIW, guys. If your W has broken her vows, it doesn't mean she wasn't serious when she said them. (There are some exceptions, of course.) If your M reconciles, and she works through her wayward mindset and what she did to dishonor her H......then there is a lot of hope the MR will be successful. It doesn't mean she'll break her vows ever again. (There are some exceptions, of course.)