I suggest you do nothing at all today. Maybe nothing until you've talked it over with your IC?
I think if you confront him, he's unlikely to tell you the truth anyway. He's so evasive and defensive, isn't he?
It is possible - perhaps even likely - that he's been unfaithful at some point or is being now. But until or unless he's willing to talk to you about that freely, take responsibility and come closer to you, it doesn't change anything about what is going on with you and him today. He isn't willing to do any of those things whether or not there's someone in the picture.
The other phone thing sounds extremely suspicious. I don't believe the Whatsapp excuse for one second. Unless he's in a profession where he needs a dedicated work phone he strictly isn't allowed to use for personal reasons, it fails the sniff test as an excuse for me. If that was true, he's have needed it before BD too. You not being able to go to his flat is also suspicious. Unless you've been violent towards him in the past and he has excellent reason to want to have that boundary and haven. then keeping it secret after all this time while still wanting to sleep in the family home now and again.
I don't think you're going to get the truth out of him, even if the truth is something other than infidelity. But I think you can use this information - he is closed and very possibly deceitful and keeps his life secret and isn't interested in offering you access to his heart - and use it to recast your own boundaries.
But maybe not today. Today is just for caring for yourself.
And other than attempt to frighten and hurt and manipulate you into being quiet and accepting the status quo by telling you he doesn't want to be married anymore (though he quite likes having a wife when it suits him, doesn't he) did he give any reasonable explanation for his second phone, you not being allowed in his flat, etc? Did you get any new information, or did he just push you away again?
Perhaps a good boundary going forward would be to mirror the levels of intimacy and self-disclosure and closeness he s offering to the relationship. To allow him no closer to you and your home than he allows you to him. To have a private life he is excluded from. Maybe that is a boundary that will help you feel more equal with him.
I didn't bring up the flat or the phone, I just said that he gave me lots of reasons not to trust him and not many reasons to trust him. He can work the details out for himself. I asked him to put himself in my shoes. He gave me no new information other than saying this stuff was between the two of us with nobody else involved.
I am considering changing the locks.
I texted him to say that I couldn't make any demands about earning my trust because he's an adult and makes his own decisions. I wished him a good holiday. Several texts already.
I thought I was doing the right thing by not applying pressure to see his flat. Yet there has been little movement towards any intimacy or self disclosure by him. The temperature has warmed up, we have been getting along fine, I have applied no pressure for ages now. I'm getting to the stage where I care less now, I just want to get movement in the right direction. I'm not waiting forever.
I think you are doing the right thing by not applying pressure. I also understand why, as the distancer, you'd not want to go dark on him. But all that means is that he gets to do whatever he's doing while seeing you when he wants, having you facilitate his relationship with his children, do his wife-admin, and be available for lunches and holidays when he feels like it. Perhaps you're not yet ready but I think the choice here is between the status quo or you going very dark, very suddenly. Let him feel abandoned.
Several phone calls with lots of R talks, none of them very productive. He thinks he wants a D, he doesn't want both of us to be 'desperately unhappy'. I said I'm not desperately unhappy (I'm really not, I feel frustrated but not unhappy). I validated which is not easy when he just blurts something out and then goes silent. My validation 'I can see how you'd feel that way' was dismissed as something out of Cosmo. Clearly not very good validation. I apologised for getting jealous if it turned out it wasn't warranted, but pointed out that he doesn't give me much to work on. He said trust wasn't the issue. He said we're different people and have nothing in common. Blah blah usual stuff which I hate.
I knew I shouldn't have started this, but I still don't regret it. I'm not putting up with this status quo. Every time we get on a bit better he shoves me back, I cannot keep going like this. If it ends up with one of us going for D then maybe it's the right move. He just texted me to say that relationships should make you happy and he just feels sad. I rang him and said I was sorry he was sad. I said I thought we both enjoyed spending time together but he seems to have rewritten that yet again. He is clearly confused. But then, so am I.
It doesn't sound like all this contact is doing you much good. He is confused. And he seems to want you to provide the answer to him. He's frustrated when you validate him because validation acknowledges and respects his feelings, but it doesn't make them your problem. You are leaving him, as well as you can, to navigate his own mid life crisis and he doesn't like it.
Half of me wants to tell you to disappear for a while. To go and get your own flat - or at least take a holiday for a couple of weeks - and leave him to care for his own children and deal with normal family life without you. I think he needs some kind of reality check and all this current situation is achieving is allowing him to wallow in his own self inflicted misery and blame you for it.
You know, if you are going to confront him and have these conversations, it might be more productive to make them specific rather than general and about the concrete rather than the abstract. I know my H responds much better to details and facts rather than emotions and concepts (perhaps a Mars Venus thing? I work in the arts, he's in medicine...). So you could say, 'why am I not allowed to see your flat?' or 'why do you have a second phone' rather than talking about trust and earning trust and feeling mistrustful. And if he gives you flannel, you could just again, tell him the truth in a very low key and factual way. 'I don't believe you and that means I need to go away now and consider my options' or something like that?
I am a talker. I go round the houses. I process by thinking aloud. I find I have better results if I do all that in my own time and go to my H with something clearer and more concise.
Yes, I agree, so much blame was coming at me this morning. He 'can't see a way back', usual stuff like that. Oh well, I can't make him forgive me for my part in our M, I can't make him stop resenting past hurts, that's all on him. If he genuinely thinks he would be happier on his own, then maybe I need to leave him to it.
If I left the kids are old enough to fend for themselves, he wouldn't come back to deal with it, I know that well. His own mother did that to him when he was 15 or 16 and visited once a week with food. If I moved out then he would file for D immediately, no question. And my kids would suffer even more. I'm not re-enacting his adolescence for him. I could go away and am going in June for a long weekend. I think he does need to feel the loss of me, I felt like all our interactions meant we were moving towards something more positive for the future but having suffered another R talk perhaps I'm just kidding myself and he's cake eating and I'm just baking for him.
I agree that he's wallowing in his own misery. I feel like I've picked myself up, looked hard at myself and started making changes. I've forgiven him a lot, I've got over an awful lot of resentments. If he can't do that work himself then I can't make him. He's hiding behind work and alcohol just as I feared he might. He's made some changes in how he behaves towards me, less critical and demanding, but maybe that was through fear of losing me instead of because he's examined his own behaviour and decided to change. I can't make him have hope for the future. I need to detach more. I feel so frustrated at the lack of progress, how much of my life do I have to waste with this stuff? I'm genuinely stronger and happier now than I have been at any time since BD, I feel like maybe I should just go ahead and let him go. If he comes back, then fine. But I will be ok on my own, I have been so far.
You know, if you are going to confront him and have these conversations, it might be more productive to make them specific rather than general and about the concrete rather than the abstract. I know my H responds much better to details and facts rather than emotions and concepts (perhaps a Mars Venus thing? I work in the arts, he's in medicine...). So you could say, 'why am I not allowed to see your flat?' or 'why do you have a second phone' rather than talking about trust and earning trust and feeling mistrustful. And if he gives you flannel, you could just again, tell him the truth in a very low key and factual way. 'I don't believe you and that means I need to go away now and consider my options' or something like that?
I am a talker. I go round the houses. I process by thinking aloud. I find I have better results if I do all that in my own time and go to my H with something clearer and more concise.
Hmm, that's a good point. I've never asked why about the flat. I suspect he doesn't even know himself. I have told him a few times I want a quick visit and he has refused. And then headed straight for a D talk. His phone I've asked him about and he gave me the Whatsapp excuse, which is dodgy I agree. And yep, I'm a talker.
Sigh, maybe I was wrong to confront him this morning, poor timing and just ended up with us both feeling hurt and confused. Maybe I need to control myself better, particularly on Monday mornings which are my weak time. Although I don't know how somehow I ended up being accused, blamed and ultimately apologising when actually it was a reasonable thing to ask, whether a woman he's spending more time with than me over these 2 weeks is single. He has not done enough to make me trust him, I know it's a choice and something I have spent a lot of time doing, but he hasn't actually now offered for me to see his flat, or to show me his phone, or any other form of evidence which would earn him this trust, he's just said that I have to trust him and maybe he needs to accept my lack of trust. Hmmm.
You sound like you're having a horrible morning, Dilly. I wonder if a break from your H and this situation and let it all lie, unsolved, for the time being, is the better move. See if you can recover and get yourself into your calm and positive headspace before you make a decision.
And you can make a decision. I think you have had some clear information from him these past few weeks - since your Easter holiday. Maybe you need to hunker down, process that information and use it to make your next move forward.
And it will be a move forward. You are getting healthier and happier and stronger. Being close and connected to your H means sitting in the mess of blame and self pity where he is. Leaving all that energy behind means leaving him behind, and that hurts. But drowning with him will hurt more. You can move forward. He can come, or not. But you are going to be absolutely fine.
I can see how he is using reminders or even threats of divorce to keep you in line. To make you afraid of leaving your kids in his hands for a week (if you wanted to do that, that is) and to punish you every time you demand some honesty from him. Looking at who he is and how he is treating you - the reality of today, rather than whatever you might hope for for the future - the threat of divorce is his only playing card and I think if you get rid of your fear of that his power over you and your moves forward will evaporate.
so much of what is being said and done here is exactly how my situation played out. The difference being that I knew about OW by then. The phone and the flat are huge red flags. OW or not doesn't really matter at the moment. To me, he's being deceitful.
My gut instinct is that he is being a coward. He wants you to end the M and make the final cut. When he keeps saying he wants a D and doesn't know if he wants to be married, he wants you to say 'well eff off then'
But Dilly you are tormenting yourself. Picking at a scab.
It's a while since I read DB fully but I do think that MWD advises the LRT if Divorce has been filed or one partner has moved out. Are you LRT?
You're still dancing. Trying to make everything right and he's not playing. You're still worrying about what he's doing and saying. He knows 100% that you will do whatever and forgive whatever.
Take a deep breath and a massive step back. He's an intelligent man. If he really wants to look he can see that you have made changes. But he doesn't want to see. He's got his blinkers on.
If and when the blinkers come off then he may show you that he intends to work on a new M. And I mean really show you.
I think you need to stop communicating except for essentials. Give him some space (that also means he doesn't get to rely on you when it suits) and more importantly give yourself some space.
Do whatever it takes to get him out of your head today and then tomorrow and so on.
