By propping up, what I mean is - he doesn't have to experience the worry that you aren't there. He never needs to feel the natural consequences of him emotionally neglecting then leaving his family because you are protecting him from that. He doesn't need to learn that mean, critical, drunk workaholics end up without loving wives, because you're protecting him from that. He's alone when he desires it, and when he wants contact with you, he has it. Even if you aren't ready to go dark, perhaps letting him experience your 'no' more often and get him to feel what the consequences of his choices are might help him get a glimpse of what that 'bottom' he's being saved from might look like.
That story about your neighbour is shocking. Perhaps she really is thriving now she's away from him. We all know how terrible and draining an awful marriage can be - and I'm not sure she'd want to be anywhere near him after how he'd behaved. Her OH sounds like he's not in his right mind. I've done lots of things in life and in my marriage that I am ashamed of - I bet we all have. But generally I've also understood the reasons why I've done those things, however inexcusable they are. But texting his OW while his daughter lies in a hospital bed is beyond me. Maybe once that line is crossed - one something is truly unforgivable - then the bond just breaks and recovery is much quicker and easier. I know when I am feeling despondent sometimes I gee myself up by thinking of the worst things that H has done - and that makes it easier not to miss him. I don't think that's healthy for me though...
I hope you had a good roast dinner. We had a roast chicken after a long walk up in the hills. Got rained on and the dog was filthy and make the floors and sofa filthy and I don't care (no H here to criticise or moan about the mess, which I will attend to when I am ready) and we loved it.
Alison: I see your logic, and I feel myself getting to a stage where I'm strong enough to start saying no more often and move towards going dark. This morning I feel quite detached actually, I had a bad 10 minutes last night where someone on telly was celebrating their 25th wedding anniversary and I realised how quickly mine is looming and what I should do about it. It would be ironic to get divorced over an anniversary, particularly since for the majority we made little fuss about it and some years we completely forgot...(on me as much as on him) Anyway, dh is away next weekend and the weekend after for a long weekend so we'll barely see each other for a few weeks, then I'm away for a long weekend myself. We had a nice walk yesterday and then went to lunch with the kids, it was actually quite fun. I feel pretty relaxed around him now, which is real progress when I consider a few weeks/months ago I was walking on eggshells scared of saying the wrong thing or triggering his anger. We have started giving each other proper hugs goodbye again, I'm a very huggy sort of person so this makes me feel good no matter who is giving me the hug. I don't overinterpret it.
Yesterday he brought up this medical that he is supposed to have for work. It's a full-on investigation and a few of his colleagues have had it, some of them have gone straight from the doctors' surgery to hospital to have coronary bypasses because the results were so shocking. His profession is NOT healthy: high stress, high alcohol, long hours. Anyway dh was supposed to have this medical a couple of years ago and someone senior was telling him that it is overdue and he needs to have it. I wonder if they are worried about his alcohol consumption and the impact it might be having on his decisions. But that's speculation. Dh is resisting this medical, he has looked into the rules and it just says a 'medical', not the complete investigation. I said he could just make an appointment for a quick checkup with a GP if that was the case. He said that he suffers from white coat syndrome for his blood pressure, I said that was common and they could get round it since he has a blood pressure monitor and checks it regularly (I think he does, he had a scare a couple of years back so he seems obsessed by it). He said he didn't like going to the doctor. I said nobody did, that he was being childish, and to thank his lucky stars he's not a woman needing a smear test! Anyway, we left it at that. I pondered it a bit and then rang him last night to ask if there was anything specific he was worried about healthwise. I know he has health anxiety both for himself and for me, so I wanted to offer him the opportunity to talk if he wanted to. He said no, he just doesn't like being told what to do. I said I wasn't going to tell him to get the medical. Then he started back tracking as soon as I said that and saying maybe he might get a quick check from a GP. Sigh, it's like dealing with a toddler. I suspect what he's scared of is hearing he is harming himself with alcohol, he knows this anyway but it would be hard to get it confirmed and then carry on regardless. He needs a wakeup call though, instead of this hardcore denial. I can't give him the wakeup call though, I will just listen if he wants to talk about it.
Back to the more important topic of ME: I have some nice GAL plans this week going running with friends and a race at the weekend. I think I need a few more social plans though because I get down and needy without enough social contact. I also have LOTS of work to do so I'd better get started.
All your GAL sounds really positive, Dilly. It also sounds good that there's going to be some built in space between you and H for a while.
That conversation to do with the medical sounded hard. You must be really worried about him, and it sounds like you have good reason to be. But it also sounds like you were bossing or infantilising a bit. He will be aware of all this just as you are - he might be in denial, but he's not daft. And he will either drink and work himself to death or he won't. He'll go for his medical or he won't. You making suggestions and trying to manage him into doing it and even shaming him a bit my mentioning the smear test stuff (and I agree with you!) probably won't help - especially if he has issues with his actual mother and will probably push him further away.
I had a similar situation the other day. H was talking to me about a conversation he'd had with someone at work. His boss had told him off - mildly - for being 'shirty' with her. He described what had happened and it sounded exactly like one of our interactions - she was trying to ask him for something, he felt overwhelmed and rather than explaining what was happening or saying no or asking for a compromise, he went on the attack and started criticising her about something else. It's sheer stress on his side and I think his workplace is pretty forgiving of people acting in that sort of way because of stress, but his lack of insight into what was happening was shocking to me. He was furious about it, then had gone back to her in the afternoon and gave a kind of non-apology, 'if you think I was being shirty, then I'm sorry, but...' and it took every molecule of strength in my body to say nothing while he was telling me about it. Perhaps my H needs to hear how his attitude affects people from someone other than his wife. Maybe he won't examine his critical and defensive attitude until he gets some more consequences for it. Perhaps your H needs to hear how he is harming himself from someone other than you. Maybe losing his wife and his children won't be enough - maybe he will actually have to have a heart attack before he looks at himself. Perhaps the best thing for the two of us to do is say nothing a bit more. It doesn't come naturally to me.
Yes I agree with you actually, after the conversation (which took me by surprise) I thought a bit and realised I might have come across as a bit bossy and know it all. That's actually why I rang him last night, to listen to him instead of offer suggestions. He did relax as soon as I said 'I'm not going to tell you to take it', and I'm not. If he chooses to self-harm then I can't stop it, but I can't condone it either. Some shenanigans today concerning his weekend away (I suggested that I join them for dinner and he said 'the logistics were too hard') and he had asked to meet me somewhere after my race on Sunday and I pointed out that the logistics for that were a lot harder so I said I wouldn't meet him. I'm pondering whether to meet him for lunch on Thursday. Maybe a 3 week break without seeing him would be good for me.
Do you think there's someone at his dinner during his weekend away that he doesn't want you to meet? Perhaps not an OW as such, but a group of friends that see a side to him he knows you don't approve of? I hear a lot of not-approval in your posts - of his work habits, his drinking, the way he handles his relationships with the kids and his mother. I don't blame you - I don't approve of him much either, but then again, I don't want to be married to him. I guess the challenge for both of us is choosing to be in the corner of someone who is making choices we don't like. I don't know how to do that or even if I want to do it.
I boss my H about a bit too and I've let him know - in detail - when I don't approve of his choices. Especially when it comes to parenting. I've done - ever since I got into IC a couple of years ago - LOADS of reading about positive parenting, non-violent communication, growth mindset - all that stuff. I know for a fact that it has improved my parenting and I needed that help because I am estranged from my family and had terrible role models as parents. But it also turned me into a bit of a critic (and probably, at times, an insufferable known it all) of H and while I still think he has a lot of shortcomings as a parent, my criticisms made things worse and trashed my marriage and damaged the relationship between him and Eldest. I'm looking to do my bit in repairing that now, and my instinct (though I've asked for suggestions on my thread) is that I need to wind my neck in and STFU a lot more. A hard lesson for me to learn. Life is giving me many opportunities to practise it.
Yes, I also need to STFU and validate a lot, I agree completely! It's hard when you've read a lot and thought a lot about these issues to just have your spouse wading in and causing chaos instead of listening to you, but I can see it's not helpful. I have been trying hard to keep a lid on Expert Mode and to not offer advice. Occasionally he does take positive suggestions, like last week when dh came home before me and I suggested a few days earlier that he took the kids to play pitch and putt and they all really enjoyed it. I don't criticise his behaviour with the kids (I might have done that once), but I do feel sad that he doesn't prioritise them, he doesn't hear that from me though, I know he's doing the best he can given his work life. I don't criticise his drinking but I cannot support it. At best I can try to ignore it unless it affects me. I think that yes, he doesn't want me to sit there looking disapproving while he gets drunk with his colleagues. In the past I might have got drunk with them, so the disapproval isn't a longstanding thing, but he might take my recent moderation of alcohol as a slight on his drinking, definitely. I used to be an annoying drunk who would embarrass him sometimes (I'm talking years ago, not recently) so I can't win either way there. I do disapprove of his work habits because it's very hard not to feel like he chose work instead of his family. That's the one resentment I find it impossible to get over (for now).
Thank you for pointing that out, I have a long way to go as well. And maybe I should try being more supportive instead of actively not critical? In the meantime I will keep on validating, I wasn't doing that about the medical stuff yesterday though I did on the phone.
I agreed to meet him for lunch on Thursday after all, it just seemed like too much hassle to get out of it and too glaringly avoiding him. He also said he will join me for a race in a few weeks' time so that was a 180 for him. Don't think I will see him Sunday though unless he comes up with a better plan.
It is really hard. What helps me is a combination of humility and pragmatism. The humility because however many books I've read and however much IC I've had, I really don't know best for other people - I don't know best for myself lots of the time. And the pragmatism because it is probably a universal fact that unasked for advice and suggestions never ever ever work. Humans are like that. I need to practice the fine art of STFU more often! So hard...
When I have chosen work instead of my family - and I did, for a long time - it was because I could be successful and important at work, and I knew what to do. At home I felt unloved, excluded and like a total failure. A lot of that was in my head - due to my childhood - and it was my responsibility to process and sort out. Some of it was PND. Some of it was a kind of spiritual self pity that I am plagued with and still need to keep tabs on. And some of it was because of how H was treating me. Work became a refuge away from all those feelings of not being good enough, because at work I could be good enough pretty much all the time, and it was easy to know what to do to achieve that. Maybe he senses you disapprove of him and that's a tiny part of the picture here, but I suspect if he is anything like me (and the more you describe him, the more I can identify with him...) most of it is his own stuff.
I hope thursday goes well. A red lipstick day for you.
That insight about work gives me a lot of food for thought, thank you. I think part of his work stuff is his mother telling him throughout school that he hadn't done well enough and praising his sister for doing less well. She was super critical of him growing up, it's interesting to see how he has internalised that into himself and his relationship with me. He is better with our kids though, I think I've done a good job of setting the parental tone there. My ds2 had a little bit of self harming going on a couple of years back, and it scared the absolute crap out of me so I examined my expectations VERY hard and made sure I did not reinforce any type of perfectionism, it also meant I backed right off ds1 when he was doing GCSEs and not revising very much. He actually failed a couple of his subjects but he did well in the subjects he needed to, and I praised him for prioritising his efforts and not putting his mental health at risk. He's now working hard at college but has a balanced life with work and girlfriend and friends and hobbies, I'm exceptionally proud of him and I think dh is too.
I think you're right about feeling like work is easy to understand and achieve for my dh, no wonder he doesn't want to retire soon even though the stress is killing his life. He tells me how he is surrounded by clever, hard working people and even though his job doesn't have inherent meaning in terms of his values in life, he does get a lot of satisfaction out of doing a good job for his clients and the people who work for him. I know he feels a sense of responsibility for the people he manages, maybe even more than for his family? I think I need to validate and empathise more when he talks about work instead of getting triggered. I have been trying but maybe my resentment towards his work lately means I have been backsliding on that. I thought he would be less stressed and have more time for us after his busy period but nope, it continues to be relentless. I can't change it, but I can accept it for now.
I was listening to a podcast this morning about blame and there were lightbulbs going off in my head over and over again. I have a LOT more work to do here, seriously. I feel like I've come quite a long way in terms of emotion control over the last few months, but I have so much more to take on board in taking my share of responsibility and quitting the blame game. Your comments about me disapproving of my dh are very useful in pointing out how I'm still blaming him. I need to stop disapproving, as you say it's hard to separate the disapproval of the behaviour from disapproval of the person (the fundamental attribution error, I might get a tattoo of this). I think I will be discussing this with my IC on Wednesday, I have become more alert to my pity parties and playing victim, but I need to better recognise when my blaming or disapproving or resentful behaviour is also putting me into victim mode. Taking my share of responsibility in this dance is an ongoing project for me, and probably a lifelong one no matter what happens.
Red lipstick, yes, he has booked a nice restaurant so I will dress up
Just journalling. I'm in a funny mood today, I had really bad hay fever yesterday afternoon and evening so I ended up missing yoga last night, which was a stupid mistake because it helps balance me out (pun intended). I had a nice run with a friend at lunchtime so I had social contact but still felt lonely in the evening. Didn't work enough yesterday, need to rectify that. I moved offices so I'm considering going in regularly twice a week as there might be other people to talk to in this office unlike the last one where everyone was out most of the time. Being at home is good for flexibility and domestic necessities like boiler checks and for exercising but it's awful for social contact, and I realise more and more how much I need it more regularly now dh is gone. I will start by putting 2 office days a week in the diary. I will make an effort to go to lunch with people there and to make new connections, I really need this (especially in school holidays when my friends are busy). I also went to look at a new car on the way to the office. Had a good look round and it ticks all of my boxes and I like it and it's about the same as the slightly older car dh was talking about buying. I need quite a big car because my teens are very tall, but having an estate car will be easier for going camping. I love going camping and plan to start going again myself and possibly with ds2 this summer. We used to go camping a lot but then dh started making out like camping wasn't good enough for him (WTF? he introduced it to me!) and wanting to stay in 5 star hotels with fancy restaurants. I feel like there's room in life for both, I like a nice hotel but also love being outdoors. I really miss going camping so that's something I will reintroduce into my life even if my family have moved past it. Anyway when I get a chance I'll take this car for a test drive and buy it if it's as nice to drive as it is to sit inside. It also parks itself, this is astonishing to me! Today I'll get the old car scrubbed up ready to trade in.
That social contact is so important, isn't it? I'm working at home pretty much full time at the moment, and this is a very quiet time of year for me - so I've got to be really careful in making sure I get out and speak to someone other than my children otherwise a week could easily pass with the only conversations I have being with them or H and that is very bad for me. I make a lot more effort these days, and that makes me reflect about how much I burdened H with being the sole witness of the minutiae of my life...
I would LOVE a car that parks itself. I had to get a new car in a hurry when H went in January. It's just a banger and I will need to replace it with something better and safer at some point - perhaps later this summer if this living situation looks to be long term - and I know nothing about them. It will be a big 180 for me to deal with all that myself.
