Re: A familiar story with questions TEN

[neffer]

Of course we are. Be strong my friend. Keep moving your steps forward.

[sandi2]

As for a loving conversation, we had this conversation and I told her that I would be out by the end of this year. Yea, I know it wasn't immediate and didn't have the same impact. But W knows that I am the type that keeps his word. I may wait for the right moment and remind her.

Is this a time frame you've given her to either start having sex with you or you'll leave?

IMHO, "reminding her" sounds more like a threat. I can't see how that would cause her to feel desire for you. If you had just gone ahead and left, it might have been more effective than giving her a time frame to come across or else.

Remember me talking to you about the importance of non-sexual touch? You couldn't bring yourself to do it. From a woman's point of view I can tell you that when there are no affectionate touches outside bedroom......she's not going to be hot & ready for intimate touches behind bedroom doors. Someone compared women to slow cooking crock pots, while men were like microwaves. Well, some women don't take that long to start cooking, when they've had fairly consistent affection outside the bedroom doors. The H needs to be consistent in showing his W affectionate touching outside the bedroom, and don't wait until the evening he wants sex to start. I think a lot of men unknowingly make their mistake by waiting till nearly bedtime and then start giving his W signals. From what I have heard other women say, it is a turn-off for them, b/c he hasn't touched his W all week and suddenly wants her to get in the mood b/c he wants sex.

A problem in SSM, is one partner is waiting on the other one. First thing you know, there is no touching of any kind, No non-sexual, no affection, and certainly no intimate touching. When you reach the stage that you feel awkward to touch in a non-sexual way......someone has to break the ice, b/c this is a big problem that won't get better by just expecting your partner to "come across". You can give all the time frames in the world, but it won't be effective in producing desire.

[RR17]

Is this a time frame you've given her to either start having sex with you or you'll leave?

IMHO, "reminding her" sounds more like a threat. I can't see how that would cause her to feel desire for you. If you had just gone ahead and left, it might have been more effective than giving her a time frame to come across or else.

Well, I didn't put it that way exactly. I told her that I didn't want to remain in a sexless marriage and when she said that she never saw us going back again. I told her that I would be out by the end of the year. I wasn't in any position to leave immediately and I also felt it could be considered desertion. It was no idle threat to cause a reaction. I guess it It could be considered a warning.

Remember me talking to you about the importance of non-sexual touch? You couldn't bring yourself to do it. From a woman's point of view I can tell you that when there are no affectionate touches outside bedroom......she's not going to be hot & ready for intimate touches behind bedroom doors. Someone compared women to slow cooking crock pots, while men were like microwaves. Well, some women don't take that long to start cooking, when they've had fairly consistent affection outside the bedroom doors. The H needs to be consistent in showing his W affectionate touching outside the bedroom, and don't wait until the evening he wants sex to start. I think a lot of men unknowingly make their mistake by waiting till nearly bedtime and then start giving his W signals. From what I have heard other women say, it is a turn-off for them, b/c he hasn't touched his W all week and suddenly wants her to get in the mood b/c he wants sex.

I do remember. And I did do it. It wasn't welcomed. I was told that it wasn't welcomed. I wrote about it here.

I also understand what you are saying. Perhaps I should try again?

Now it has been so long that it would feel very awkward. Before, it was just difficult to find the opportunity.
I have reached a point where I have detached so much that I don't really care. I am tired of risking rejection and have now spent months without even thinking about it. I have really Detached from any expectation.
As for one partner waiting on the other one? I did make attempts. It was met with a negative reaction. No, it wasn't attached to the expectation that we would head straight for the sack. It just wasn't well received. I stopped.

Should I try again?

[LH19]

R,

Is your plan still to separate at the end of the year?

[AnotherStander]

I told her that I didn't want to remain in a sexless marriage and when she said that she never saw us going back again. I told her that I would be out by the end of the year. I wasn't in any position to leave immediately and I also felt it could be considered desertion. It was no idle threat to cause a reaction. I guess it It could be considered a warning.

RR, is the timeline that long because you need to do work to prepare to move out? If so then I would suggest you get busy. You're in a sexless M and you've tried to change that but she's shut you down at every turn. It sounds like you're done waiting, so by all means if you're ready to move out then move out. You told her you were going to, now SHOW her that you are serious by taking whatever actions you need to take to prepare for that.

I do remember. And I did do it. It wasn't welcomed. I was told that it wasn't welcomed. I wrote about it here.

I also understand what you are saying. Perhaps I should try again?

I will be interested to see what Sandi writes, but my attitude is you tried, it had a negative impact on your W, you've stopped and told her you are moving out, so don't suddenly go back to touch charges. I think you were consistent in your actions to save the M, but now that you've put her on notice that you are done trying then you need to be consistent with this as well.

[sandi2]

Did she tell you at the moment you gave her a non-sexual touch that she did not want you touching her at all? Was it the same day she rejected you sexually?

If she reacts whenever you barely touch her like you'd touch your grandmother.......she's got some serious issues. How does she react if someone other than you gives a non-sexual touch? That might shed some light, at least knowing if it's just you she doesn't want encounter any physical contact.

Should you try again? I'd still like to hear what you tried, how much/often, etc. It just seems a little odd that the two of you can enjoy each other's company so much, and yet she wants to keep you at an arm's length. You can't think of any emotional need she has that isn't being met? I can't remember if you said she's ever taken that test to determine her love language. Know the one I'm talking about? Words of affirmation, gifts, physical touch, or works of appreciation. We all express and receive love in different ways.

You asked a simple question. So.......unless you can tell me something that might shed more light, I would suggest you not try to touch her if she has clearly told you to keep your hands off. If it doesn't work, don't keep doing it.

[RR17]

Okay, here we go.

Did she tell you at the moment you gave her a non-sexual touch that she did not want you touching her at all? Was it the same day she rejected you sexually?

No, not the same day. No, she may have flinched because she didn't expect it, but she only said these things when I brought them up later. Her MO is never to complain but to expect me to know how it made her feel.

If she reacts whenever you barely touch her like you'd touch your grandmother.......she's got some serious issues. How does she react if someone other than you gives a non-sexual touch? That might shed some light, at least knowing if it's just you she doesn't want encounter any physical contact.

Lol, I act like a grandmother when I am barely touched. As described in past threads neither one of us were touchy-feely people. Put us together and it compounds. Do we ever hug in none sexual situations? Sure, but it is never unexpected.
How does she respond when other people touch her? I've never really paid attention. I don't think she is often in that type of situation.
It was only after all this garbage that I realized that I needed to change and that incorporating none sexual touch was something missing. She tried to hold hands early in our courtship some 20+ years ago and I wasn't very receptive. She has used this and reminded me, when I discussed physical affection.

Should you try again? I'd still like to hear what you tried, how much/often, etc. It just seems a little odd that the two of you can enjoy each other's company so much, and yet she wants to keep you at an arm's length. You can't think of any emotional need she has that isn't being met? I can't remember if you said she's ever taken that test to determine her love language. Know the one I'm talking about? Words of affirmation, gifts, physical touch, or works of appreciation. We all express and receive love in different ways.

Seems odd to me too. That's why I brought it here. Not to get too phycological, but I believe that she is using sex as some sort of "hold back". As if it is a way to somehow control the relationship. Remember I shared that at times she said that she believed that I only wanted her for sex. I do believe that she may have unhealthy beliefs regarding sex. She also said when I was rejected that when we had it, that all she got out of it was an orgasm. Apparently, that is not reason enough.
Years ago we did the whole Love Language thing. Initially, she couldn't answer the questions and only after I kind of walked her through how she seemed to like quality time and acts of service did she seem to agree. It was difficult. So that is what I have focused on giving her. She seems to like it.

You asked a simple question. So.......unless you can tell me something that might shed more light, I would suggest you not try to touch her if she has clearly told you to keep your hands off. frown If it doesn't work, don't keep doing it.

Well, she never clearly said keep your hands off.
I do understand the concept that continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results is insane. I also know that the first several dozen times I swung a golf club, it didn't have positive results either.

As for always, thanks to everyone for your continued support and responses. As for, have my plans changed? No, not as of now. I still plan to move out if I don't see movement before the end of this year.
Why such a long timeframe? Why not?
After much consideration and prayer, I decided that because I wasn't in any dire distress, that it was a time to be still,..and wait, and to focus on other things, and that's what I have done. I have no fear of allowing this to become my new permanent normal.

As I write this I am contemplating the idea that I do give a touch charge opportunity a chance tonight at early Easter church service. The timing seems appropriate. There will be no confusion about my intentions. And if she responds negatively? I am better prepared to let it pass without any expectation. Either way, I am no worse off.

[RR17]

So during the church service, W seemed moved. It was mostly music. I found an opportune time and placed my hand on her back and gently rubbed. Maybe 5 seconds. I figured better too short than over-stay. W didn't really respond either way. IMO, that was a positive.

Later I asked if the service had moved her. W's response was a quick yea, what about you? Quickly turning it back to me. IMO, this is probably a defense mechanism to avoid introspection.

Since then things are as usual. Friday W and I had dinner with D16 and her boyfriend. I took off afterward for the evening.

[RR17]

So there's this.
W has a business trip planned for the same city my daughter attends college. She has a favorite client there and upon hearing of this I can't help but wonder if there is more to it. W refused to a transparency plan after being caught in EA years ago. Says she felt it would send the wrong message that all was Okay in other parts of the MR.
While she did tell me, she hasn't brought it up much and seeing that I had committed to drive D16 to school next week I was reminded that the trip was coming up.
I asked W while making coffee this morning when she was returning. W said Sunday. Against best DB standards I remarked, "Do you have a friend up there?" Not in a condemning way, but more off the cuff.
Well, W gets immediately mad. Suddenly she is dismissive and in a hurry and I am at fault etc.. I mean how dare I have a suspicious bone, after all?

Well, I've never seen W get ready so fast and head into work. I'm so tired of this rude self-righteous and dismissive behavior.
GAL and focusing on other things can't keep one that has been screwed in the past from wondering if W is once again justifying some inappropriate R with something I did in the past. You see she wants me to forget the past and never bring it up again, while reserving the right to justify her actions with something I may have done in the past. Seems about right.

[neffer]

Sorry you feel that way RR. I know it´s hard but you need to let that mind reading go away. It´s no useful. Is it going to change anything? It may even work in detrimental of your sitch in the way it has developed.

Just keep your walk of dignity and perseverance. You need to be strong there man. Keep the GAL and the self improvement. Be there for your D and keep moving forward. You have travelled a long road dear friend, and you know it´s up to you when to turn the steering wheel.

All of us deserve a happy life RR. We don´t live on breadcrumbs.

Be strong there man!