Steve, Far be it for me to deviate from the practice of some U.S. elected officials, but I've always found it possible to maintain fruitful friendships with females without fear.
I wrote out a long explanation about how I feel the same way you do - that intellectualizing is actually a great benefit and approach, and that it is simply different. But in an effort to not hijack or start any big back-and-forth I'll say only this.
Perhaps you and I approach this differently than others on the board, but it's a path that we have chosen for ourselves. Cheers to you on your path Paco, and I hope you and your friend have many more enlightening conversations
Paco, you posted on my brief thread a while ago that our sitch's seemed quite similar and after reading more I agree 100%. I also feel our attitude towards our WAW is very much aligned.
My WAW is very "Kind" outwardly to me, bending over backwards to be friendly. It makes some of the DB rules slightly harder to apply without having motivation be driven by anger.
Yail, I'm going to read up on your sitch as it seems like we are in very similar places.
H:50 (me) W:44 M:12 T:22 BD: 08/2018 W Moved out 08/2018
Steve, that's not how I understood Sokaku's note on anger. What I understood them to be saying is that it can sometimes be harder to stay DBing when the spouse is consistently kind. Because it could potentially easier to see fake "hope" in the situation, or to pursue. When the WAS is being "angry" the DB process may make more sense to the LBS because they can physically see the need to focus on themselves and not the angry, spewing spouse.
Yail, that is why emotional detachment is so important. Don't get down over them being mean....don't get excited when they are nice. That is what detachment is....not reacting emotionally either way to what they say and do.
If you can only DB when she is angry and mean....she will manipulate you anytime she wants.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Yail, I generally have problems with simple labels, so I disagree with Steve's characterization of "intellectualization." I try to approach life holistically, as the boundaries we establish distinguishing the emotional, physical, spiritual, and intellectual don't serve me well. For example, the insight and inspiration you derive from Tolstoy strikes me as spiritual, as well as intellectual and emotional.
Bottom line: it works for you. Far be it for me to question your motives, second-guess your enthusiasms, or impose caution (unless I am invited to do so) on you or anyone else who shares of him- or herself on this board. I leave that for others who seem ready enough to do all that. I have dealt with enough such people in real life and I realize this affect relates to a subtle need for control.
Sokaku, I don't know if this will resonate with you, but I had mentioned before that my W's "niceness" is part of the issue. I will ALWAYS hold myself accountable for my behavior, but my emotions are non-negotiable. I have them. I feel joy, anger, sadness, grief, awe, envy, irritation. My W's "niceness" sometimes manifests in stress and anxiety whenever I do not emotionally respond to the world in a way she might have. And I refuse to contort myself to be her emotional clone.
How much of this is a result of waning hormones that come with middle age? I suspect a lot. I have always had a strong sense of self and have never pretended to be anyone but myself. A friend referred to estrogen as the "patience" hormone. Most of our mutual friends have variously described her walking away as "chemical" or that "something snapped." How else to explain how a deep, intimate relationship could end when it suddenly dawned on W that emotions she lived with for more than 3 decades are no longer acceptable?
So my W's case is difficult, as perhaps your W's case might be. My W did not go full "girls gone wild" and she is not in any EA or PA, despite what people who rely on easy labels might say. I think this actually makes it harder for her to come back, particularly if she continues to regard my emotional complexity as THE problem.
As hard as it has been, I am moving forward to work on a rather well-defined vision of a future, with or without her. With her would be fantastic. But not at the cost of emotional constipation.
Not sure if you mean to be condescending or not, but maybe that is a source of your marital problems? Just an observation. Hoping for the best for you paco!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Not sure if you mean to be condescending or not, but maybe that is a source of your marital problems? Just an observation. Hoping for the best for you paco!
I hope this is taken constructively. For what it's worth, I got the same vibe from paco's last post. Sometimes, our ego gets the best of us.
I will take this constructively, in the following way.
A few nights ago, I was talking to a mutual friend who has known W and me a long time. He said, "You've always reminded me of Hawkeye Pierce, from MASH: irreverent, sometimes caustic, sometimes annoying. But a heart of gold, would do anything for a friend, and very good at what you do. And now, at middle age, after all these years, it seems your W is looking for someone like Fred Rogers: someone gentle and inoffensive." So, I aspire to be more like Mr. Rogers, but I guess I'll always be Hawkeye; it's who I am and whom W fell in love with. And like everyone here, I evaluate comments from real life friends who know me and W against those from strangers on the interwebs.
Participants here are either those seeking comfort or those offering comfort. I regard originators of threads to belong to the former group, and commenters in the latter. For the latter group, in the absence of an "unfriend" option, there is always the option to "unfollow."
Meanwhile, in the real world, it has been an intense week of collaborating with others on a project bringing me closer to my soul's aspiration: to build communities in developing countries to alleviate poverty, while protecting the environment. This activity followed a pattern: in what should be a joyful time, I get hit with a wave of grief. My wise and loving sister, a trained psychologist, offered this golden, therapeutic nugget: over more than 30 years of marriage, the synapses triggering joy are so correlated with my experience of W. Just understanding the physiological basis for the pattern helps me anticipate and ride the emotional waves.
And it also helps me exercise patience with W. When W suffered from depression years ago and aborted her individual therapy sessions, an opportunity to reboot those synapses was missed. If she does regain that joy, with or without me, I will be happy for her.
