thanks for the advice kitkat, we didn't actually end up having the talk. H's mom didn't come home till very late, so we had to stay with our son and couldn't be alone.
He seemed less angry yesterday and it was almost like old times (almost).
Anyways, this talk we are supposed to have is to decide what we are going to do now. Originally we said we would separate (still live in the same house), but we would pretend to everyone else that all was okay. Until after my brothers wedding. Then we were supposed to tell everyone we were separated and make some more decisions - ie, maybe changing our living or financial arrangements. During that time we were not supposed to sleep together or ML or do any 'couple' things. H had also mentioned that 'anything' could happen during those months, although he didn't want to get my hopes up.
Well the wedding was a month ago, and H has been stalling on the talk. I am not pushing it cause as far as I am concerned I am not moving out or changing anything. If he wants us to actually live separately then HE can leave. Also, the 'separation rules' were never enforced. He still wanted to ML, sleep with me, and we went out many many times for dinner, drinks etc...The day after the wedding he asked me if I was going to tell my family, I said no because of my mother's health, but that he could go ahead and tell his side. He never did....
I am not getting my hopes up for this talk, actually the opposite. I am preparing myself for the chance that he may actually decide to move out, or that we stop all physical contact etc... I know this will be hard for me, but I just need to remind myself that it might be a good thing too. It might force H to realize what life without me as his wife would be....
We haven't said when we will talk, but maybe tonight. I will keep you updated...
Well, yesterday we went out after our son went to sleep.
We started off good, planning our son's birthday next week.
Then I asked him what he wanted to talk about regarding us.
He mumbled something and shrugged. I said that 2 days ago he said that we needed to talk, it sounded like he had something specific on his mind so tell me what it was. He said he wanted to know if the rules we decided on before still apply. IE...taking son out with OW and OW coming by the house to drop him off etc...
Of course these are both very sore subjects with me so I started to backslide. I told him that if I ever see her outside our home I will strangle her, as will his mom and brother. As for our son, no way is it okay for him to go out with them. I reminded him that he told me he would never bring OW near our home, or expose our son to this situation. I asked him why did he want OW to spend time with our son? What was he trying to accomplish? He said he wasn't planning anything, that he was just missing spending time with our son and was thinking once and awhile he could bring him out with them, he would treat OW just like one of his friends in front of our son. I told him that our son was smarter than that, he would question why I wasn't there etc.... H said that he wouldn't do it often, maybe once every couple of months. I told him that he would just confuse our son.
I asked him if that was all he wanted to talk about. He said no, he said that we really need to start acting more like a separated couple. He shouldn't be hugging and kissing me, or ML or sleeping in our bed etc... I said fine. NO more hugging, kissing etc... You can sleep on the couch from now on. We don't need to spend any time together except for our son. H looked shocked, I guess he expected me to argue and plead with him or something. Then he got really sad. I quickly changed the subject so that our night wouldn't spiral down into a fight.
After a while, H started to talk about us again. He said that even if we get back together, we won't work out anyways. That I would never forget what he has done. I told him that it is true that I won't forget, BUT I will forgive and put it behind me. He said knows I won't be able to do that. I asked him why he keeps saying that? He said cause he talked to 2 of his friends (2 female friends) and they said that they were never able to get over their boyfriends cheating on them, so I wouldn't be able to forgive him either. I told him that his friends don't even know me. That I am not them, I know myself and know what I am capable of. I told him that millions of couples go through this and come out stronger afterwards.
H said that I am the strongest person he knows, that he actually admires me, that he doesn't think anyone else would be able to do what I am doing. I responded by saying 'I know' with a smile. H laughed and commented on my confidence. He said he is sorry for hurting me, that he is hurting too. He told me that he misses me so very much, that he can't believe how much he missed me, that at the beginning of this he was so sure that he didn't love me anymore and didn't think it would bother him to lose me.
He said that he loves coming home from work and seeing me at home. (wow - dbing does work). He said he thinks I am so beautiful, that after he drops me off in the morning he watches me in the rear view mirrow. He said that I could have any guy I want. I replied that the only guy I want is my husband. He told me that he realizes now that he was infatuated with OW in the beginning, that he wasn't really in love with her then, BUT HE IS IN LOVE WITH HER NOW. He said he does love me too but not the same.
He then brought up all the things that bothered him over the years and told me how hurt he was. I told him that I never meant to hurt him, that if I had known how he really felt I would have stopped it. He asked me why I have made all these changes now, why didn't I do it before? I told him that always listened to what he had to say, but I never really HEARD what he was saying. I apologized. (total validation). I didn't defend myself as usual or try to point out my side of things - he has heard my side before. I just let him get everything out.) H told me that he tried to break up with OW many times, but that she really loves him, and breaks down (um, what about me?) and he does care about her so much so he stops trying to break it off.
He told me he was so surprised by my reaction to the whole situation, he truly believed that I didn't really love him anymore either...and that I would have told him to get lost a long time ago. He said my actions in the past made him think that I stopped loving him. (I really misread his lovelanguages)
He told me that last night he wasn't with OW (he usually goes with her on Wed's) He said he went to a bar by himself and was drinking and thinking about us. He said he went to the bathroom and cried a few times while he was there. I told him that I thought he had went out with her, that I was sad too.
He said that I am perfect, the ideal woman. He said that he is sad that we won't work out. And that he is sad that he won't get to see what our biological children would look like, that he knows they would be beautiful. I stayed quiet even though I was struggling not to say anything.
I asked him if he still wanted to go to the movies with me Friday night. He looked surprised and said he thought I said no more doing stuff together. I replied that I only said that because that is what HE wanted. He said that he didn't WANT to stop being with me, but that he SHOULD stop being with me. I told him that I wasn't sure what he wanted me to do, but I do still want to see the movie with him. He said okay.
I asked him if we are both going to still live at home for now? He quietly said yes. So I told him we need to discuss the responsibilities of the house cause we seem to be fighting over small things because we have different expectations. I told him that over the years we both assumed things about our roles and we needed to actually sit down and spell it out.
We had good talk and cleared the air about a few issues. I think we both felt better about things.
I wanted to tell him that we both still have strong feelings for each other, that we can make things work. That I can get over the affair, that we will lose so much if we split. That he can't truly be in love with OW if he is cheating on her with me and still has such strong feelings etc... That he has the power to fix this mess, that it is not a done deal... BUT I held back. I didn't want to push anything. I think dbing is working slowly, but I don't know if he has the strength, or confidence in us, to give her up and try again. Time will tell I guess....
I see so many positives, but not sure what to do next....
On Friday night H said he would come with me to get an oil change, but the shop was closed. Then I told him we needed to go to the bowling alley to pay the deposit for our son's b-day party. He said we could go right now, and we could even stay and play a few games ourselves. I said sure. We had a lot of fun, I kicked his butt. After we went home and he said he was going out now. I said okay goodbye and he left. The next day when he came late in the afternoon, he told me that he had a dream about us bowling last night. (he was with OW, but dreaming about me).
He cautiously asked me if I wanted him to move out, I said no, why would I want you to leave? Then I asked him if he wanted me to move out? He answered with a resounding NO. I said okay. Before he used to answer saying he thinks one of us should move out.
Then he said he had to go to his brothers to do some work. I asked him if he was going out at night again. He said maybe, I told him to tell me yes or no? He said yes, I said fine, then I guess I won't see you till tommorow. He said that's not true, that he would come back home when he finished at his brothers. I said why? You mean you will just come home to get ready to go out right? Well I am not going to be here so I guess I will see you tommorow. He looked a bit upset, then left. I wasn't going to wait around to spend 10 minutes with him while he got ready to go out with OW. So I went out. He called me later on my cell and said that he would spend Sunday afternoon with me, and that he would be home early. I said sure.
On Sunday, he was late. I was pissed, but I tried not to yell at him. He was very apologetic, said he slept in, as soon as he got up he left and was worried about me being angry. We spent a really nice day together, he told me that everytime he is with me, he is so torn inside. We spend the whole evening together too, it was nice. He said he was thinking about ML with me all night. (he was with OW, but thinking of ML with me)
I feel like we are so much closer now, he doesn't seem like he is desperate to leave our R anymore.
Positives
He is starting to realize that he does have strong feelings for me, that he won't be happy if we are apart - this took him by surprise. He is thinking about me when he is with her. He says he loves coming home from work to me. He says that I look so amazing and I am the 'ideal woman'.
negatives
He still goes out with OW, constantly talks to her. He is still indecisive about us. He still mentions me moving on.
I think the scales have tipped more in my favour. I know that if I had told him to move out a few months ago, he wouldn't have gotten the chance to see how fun and good things could be with me. He wouldn't be questioning his decision to leave me for OW like he is now.
I think I will continue to DB for a few more weeks. Hopefully he will continue to get closer to me. Once I see more improvements, should I tell him that he needs to make a decision - that he can't continue to cake eat?? I know that if things continue to improve, he will most likely choose me if he is forced to make a decision. However, I don't want him to resent me, so I don't want to rush things, and make him decide before he is ready. But I don't want this limbo to go on forever either...
Of course I wouldn't phrase it like an ultimatum or anything, I would just say that I can't continue to be with him as a wife while he is continuing to see OW. That it is too painful for me etc... I will be changing my behaviour, not telling him to change his. This will of course lead to him having to live without me as his wife and could force him to make a decision. What do you think????
Sorry to hear of your troubles. I think you've come to the place (and we all come to it many times in the DB process) where you have to sit back, take some deep breaths, and decide how much is too much for you to take any more.
Your making the decision to pursue a D may force your H to have an "ah ha" moment and he may come to his senses. He also may get angry and see it as proof that he's right to have chosen the OW for now. You really have to think about what feels right to YOU and move accordingly. You have to decide whether you are ready to accept whatever outcome may result here.
I'm in a similar sitch, like we seem to get along fine and we can have some fun together, do the house logistics, and care for the boys but then when it's time for romance, love and all that other good stuff it's the OM that gets it and I've decided I've had enough. I told my W as much last night and I will move onto the D process now. I don't think it will change her mind about OM but I can't take the pain anymore and I don't want to wait for her to make up her mind anymore. She makes up her mind every day when she chooses him over me, when she arranges her work and life schedule so that they can have long weekend romantic getaways instead of spending her free time with me and our sons 4, & 6. I told her she's made her decision as far as I'm concerned and that I'm done.
It's not an ultimatum; if she chooses later to try to work on our R I can think about it. You can always make the same decision w/ your H. Divorce doesn't have to be forever; I mean aren't we all here because when we said forever and for better or worse we actually meant it?
So go with your gut, your heart and your mind (if you can get them to line up, I know mine hardly ever do). Do what will work best for you right now, your H is doing just fine taking care of himself. Keep coming here to vent and let us know how you're doing.
Thanks for your advice Jcarlos, I know that I am still strong enough to continue this with him living at home. Even though I am starting to get more angry and more sad whenever he stays with her...
He asked me the other day if I think about what he is doing when he is with OW. I said yes, sometimes. He hugged me close and said softly that he doesn't want me to think about that stuff. I didn't respond, although I wanted to say WTF does he think I think about when he is with her? How am I supposed to NOT think about them? But I didn't say anything, I just hugged him.
He went out with OW last night, around midnight he sent me a text message, it said 'I miss U'. It really made me feel so much better, (so much for detaching). He was out on a date with OW, but texting me? I luv it, it's like I am the OW....I can't send text on my phone so I couldn't write him back.
In the morning he called me and said he wasn't feeling well,
(he has been sicky this week). He said he was going to call in sick at work for the morning. (he was still at OW's) I said okay, I didn't ask if he was going to spend the whole morning with OW or come home. I went to work.
I then sent him a text message through email, I said 'I hope u feel better, I got your message, I missed u too, luv S'.
I hate that he is with her when he should be with me, or at least at home resting instead.
But then around lunch time I got a phone call, it was H, he said he was wondering if I would meet him for lunch. Except for the first year we met, he NEVER offers to come meet me for lunch (I work downtown - very busy, no parking etc...). I said sure. We had a nice lunch, no R talk. He then ran some errands with me (something he usually hates doing). It was weird, kinda like we just met and were dating? At least that's how I felt. He was very loving towards me. Afterwards I kissed him and thanked him for having lunch with me.
That evening we were lying on the couch watching TV. H asked me the following:
H: you want me to fall in love with you again?
Me: Yes,
H: Why?
Me: I think that it would be wonderful and a lot of fun if we could.
H: Will you take care of me if I am hurting?
Me: Of course baby, I will always take care of you.
H: I don't know baby, I'm not sure...
Me: I know.
We hugged and then he asked me if why I don't try to find someone else, that I could get over him like I did my previous relationships. I said, no, that I never loved anyone the way I love him, that we can't compare other relationships to ours. H asked me if I start dating someone else will I still ML with him? I said no, that I can't do that. H said in a quiet voice 'no, you can't stop being with me....' I just hugged him.
We went to bed, H told me that he feels like he is cheating on OW with me, I said don't you think that is crazy? He said yes...
I don't know what the hell is going on, but he and I are enjoying each others company so much more, it's like the way we were in the beginning, yet the OW is still in the picture!! I wish she would leave the country or something. I am grateful that she no longer works with H. It will make their separation much easier...I hope that is where this is heading.. But I know I need to keep my expectations down... don't want to blow it now...
Hi Love, i have never posted on your thread before and I am kind of new to this but I did read most of your thread and I just had to say something to you and I hope that you do not take offense to this at all.
This is just my opinion but I think that you should stop ML with your H. He needs to see what eh will really be missing out on if he decides to continue with OW and leave you. Right now he has nothing to lose, just as my H has nothing to lose. He gets to come and go as he pleases, does not have any household responsibilities, does not have to tell you where he is or who he is with or when he will come home and he can get jealous thinking that you might be with another man and get mad. Then he can come home to you and be sweet and loving and kiss and hg you and ML to you. Why would he want to leave and be the one to end it? He has the best of both worlds right now.
He continuosly asks you the same questions over and over again, I personally would get tired of them and as kitkat said I would start telling him that you have already had these discussions with him and answered these questions and all of yor answers still remain the same.
You need to start doing more for you. Go out and have a good time where you know he will not be, don't come home a couple of nights and when he asks where you are say something like Oh I was with friends and I wasn't up to coming home. Make him wonder.
As far as the depression goes, I 100% believe that this has a part if not a big part in how he is feeling, my H is the same way. One of the signs of depression is indecisiveness, not being able to make up your mind and I see that in my H and in yours not to mention you are not giving him any reason at all to make a decision on what he wants. YOu can read my current sitch at, if this link does not work I in Newcomers under He wants to leave but now what. My current sitch
Thanks for your advice kjcrampton, I do not take offense at your suggestion. It is something that I question quite often. I know that right now he is cake-eating. But I also know that physical closeness is something that is very important to H, it is also one of the problems he stated we had. I feel comfortable ML with H, but on the occasion that I don't feel comfortable - I won't ML. The argument I have to continue is that it keeps us closer together, he is lying to OW about it, it fulfils one of his emotional needs that he felt I didn't meet before. He honestly felt like I didn't find him attractive etc...
As for going out, I do go out and have fun with my friends, however I will never hint that I have met someone else or be TOO mysterious because this is another area that we had problems with - he has trust issues, (ironic I know). I know that he doesn't trust OW (I read it in the email). So I don't want him to think that I am cheating on him so to speak. I did tell him that if I happen to meet someone else, and I decide to see them, it will change the way I interact with H. Basically, I will consider our R over.
H does continually ask me the same questions, but he has always been that way. He has seems to need reassurance or he doesn't understand my reasoning/logic at first. He does however move on from those questions - very slowly though. If he does ask me questions that I know will lead to a fight, I do as kitkat suggested and tell him that we already discussed it.
What I am doing now seems to be working, but ever so slowly, He is spending less time with OW, and WAY more time doing stuff with me. Lately he has been thinking of me when he is with her AND telling me about it. He is suggesting more things that we can do that involve the future. He has become less angry about our issues. He has told me that he didn't realize how much it would hurt him to be without me. He is changing towards us because of the changes I have made to myself - WITHOUT one of us having to move out or stop physical contact. But I guess that I might need to do something more drastic if I want to get some more decisive results...
I know that this can't go on forever, he needs to make a decision. He is already starting to miss me a lot - and I am still here!! I know that if I leave might force him to decide, but I don't think he will choose me yet... he is still very nervous about trusting us - he is not sure that I won't hold this over his head forever, he is not sure that the changes I have made are real, he is not sure that he can be happy with me. HOWEVER, he is definately starting to open his eyes to this - hence the new questions...
3 months ago he was very angry at me, wanted a divorce, said we could never be happy, barely spent time with me, things are so much better now, but he is still undecided. The affair has reached the 6 month mark now, supposedly this is when they start to go bad (not always the case). I think she will start to pressure him, I would rather the push comes from her as opposed to me.
However if nothing happens in the next few weeks, I know the next move could be for me to stop physical contact with him..or for him to move out...
thanks for taking the time to read my thread, I appreciate it and I will consider all the advice given...
It sounds like things are goin well for you..of course not the exact way you want them, but like you said, slowly...
I too ML with my H, in a way to keep him close to me and usually its me making the moves, but last time, it was more him...I also, in my case since she is many many miles away, figure at least he is getting his physical needs met my me and not OW. And like you, I know he is not telling OW that we are ML
hey 2much, nice to hear from you. I've been reading your thread too. As long as you are comfortable with it and it is bringing you closer to your goals - go for it.
I am going to tell my H next time HE brings it up that he should be honest with OW. That she deserves to know the truth about our ML and his feelings. Let's see what he says...either way, it's beneficial to me - if she knows she will freak out (she has in the past - that's why he stopped telling her). If he doesn't tell her, then that is one more secret he is keeping from her.....
I have told my H that I ML with him cause I love him and it feels natural to me. However, I don't ever start it, I let him initiate it. He is constantly telling me that we 'should' stop physical contact, even though he doesn't 'want' to. I just say 'okay'. But then he always starts it. This way he can't say that I am the one keeping it going. He is driving himself crazy I think.....that makes two of us I guess hahaha
Well this weekend was pretty good compared to the usual.
On Friday night, he said he wasn't going out since it was our son's b-day party the next afternoon and he didn't want to oversleep or be late. He suggested we have some wine, so I went and got a bottle and we drank it and watched the olympic ceremonies. It was nice. The next day we had the b-day party and we all had a good time. I caught H looking at me and smiling a few times.
That night we were driving home in separate cars. I called his cell and asked him if he was going out at night (with OW). He said he didn't know yet. I suggested we go for dinner at a restaurant. He said no at first said I should just pick up some take out and not worry about him. I was upset, but said okay. Then a few minutes later he called me back and asked if I still wanted to go. I said sure. I am not sure if he couldn't get a hold of OW, or if he told her that he couldn't meet her yet, but would meet her later. We went to a nice restaurant in our neighbourhood and had seafood and wine. When we got home he told me that he was going to go out (It was 11pm) I said okay. He hugged me and said please don't be sad. I smiled and said it was hard not to be.
He left and came home early the next day. I was surprised, I thought he would have stayed with OW all afternoon since he didn't see her the day before at all. Anyways he told me about a co-workers b-day party and asked me if I wanted to go with him. While we were there OW kept calling his cell, I knew it was her cause I saw her name on the display. H seemed annoyed and didn't answer it. We had a fun time at the party.
Then in the evening we left to go to his brother's house. When we got there he told me that he would be back in a few minutes. He asked me for my lighter which meant he was going to have a cigarette. He usually only smokes when he is stressed out. I know he went to call OW since he took his cell with him. He came back about 20mins later and came over and hugged me. I asked him if he was okay, he shook his head no. I said what's wrong, he said he was mad. I said why? He said don't worry about it and just hugged me.
That night we went home and watched tv and also went through the bills we had to pay. H seemed depressed at the amount he owed and said he needed to get a part-time job. I wanted to tell him that if he stopped wasting money on OW, then he wouldn't need to. But I didn't say anything.
We also had the following conversation:
H: When are you going to get over me and move on? Me: Do you really want me to move on? H: I think you would be better off. Me: You don't want to be with me anymore huh? H: It's not a simple answer or a simple question. (when this question came up before he used to answer by saying 'no'.) Me: You know that if we divorce your whole life will change. H: Maybe it would be better if I move out. Me: If you think that is what you need to do. H: Do you want me to leave? I think me being here is making it harder for both of us. (he meant for us to get over each other) Me: No, I don't want you to move out, but.... H: I don't want to leave either. Me: But you are the one who wants to be separated. H: I know.
We changed the subject for a while, then as we were getting ready for bed, H started another conversation.
H: When you said that my whole life would change, what did you mean? What will change? Me: Well, I won't be here for you to hug anymore. H: I won't like that. (whispers) Me: We will have to sell the house, so you will have to move to an apartment. H: I won't like that either. (whispers) Me: I don't know what will happen with our son, we won't be a family anymore. H: I don't want that to happen. Okay baby that's enough talking for now. Let's get some sleep.
He then snuggled up to me and we went to sleep.
I am going to come up with a list of specific things that will happen if we are divorced. The next time it comes up I will be ready to answer him. I think that he is finally thinking about the consequences. Also, I know he got into a fight with OW. It's been at least a month since I seen any evidence of then fighting. I wonder why now? Maybe because he hardly spent any time with her this weekend? I hope she is pressuring him. If he gets another job, he will have even less free time to spend with us or her. I hope it's her time that gets sacrificed as opposed to our family's time.
