thank you for your insight Annalise, I realize that I am analysing everything too much, I am trying to be myself, and am generally pleasant around him.
The only time I argue with H is when he crosses the line. He is having problems keeping the boundaries - which have nothing to do with him seeing OW. He is to be responsible with money - He has spent thousands of dollars going out with OW - I have been trying to reduce our debt for the past year so we could afford to have a baby - I did it all for nothing since he blew our budget in 3 months - yet he still says I didn't want to give him a child, forgetting that he agreed that we should wait till we had more money.
He also promised that our son (he is not our biological child, he is our nephew but we are his custodial parents) would not be affected by this. He has had enough turmoil in his life, being rejected by both of his natural parents.
We both agreed that until we make a decision one way or the other, we would not let it affect him - introducing OW to our son was a complete betrayal and H acknowledges that. (he is only 8, has no clue what is going on, so I doubt he is stratagizing anything...)
As for the ML, I ML with my husband because I am in love with him, I am his wife. Why should anyone feel less respect for me because of this? I am the one who has the right to be with him, not her, in God's eyes and mine. I agree my H is the one who is being a whore, but OW does know that we were still ML, except for maybe the past 2 months. She got angry and told him that he doesn't need to have sex with me, that he could get it from her anytime. I told H that he needs to be honest with OW and himself. He admits that he loves both of us, but in different ways. I am NOT using ML as a strategy to win him back. My H is not a womanizer - he has only been with me, his first deceased wife, and now OW. Sex and physical touch are very emotional connections for him, it is the way he expresses his feelings. If and when I do not feel comfortable ML with him I don't - for example if I know he is going out to see her in a few hours, I won't ML with him and I tell him why.
I agree that it is better for us to stay in our home together. I guess I am just scared that this situation will continue forever - kind of like the limbo land you are in. I don't want to waste years of my life and then in the end have nothing. I want to have a family and a child of my own - I am 33, this mess we are in will take at least a year or two to put behind me - that leaves me what - 2 years to fall in love again, get married and have kids?
I know women have babies even into their 40's now, but it gets harder to conceive after 35, also there are more health risks etc... For the first time in my life I am now hearing that biological clock ticking - it is there in the background and I know it is influencing me in a negative way, causing me to make more panicky decisions. I need to ignore it I guess if I want to concentrate on winning back my H.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my sitch. I guess I am going around in circles. You are right, I need to stay focused on my goals. I do believe that we have made a lot of progress since I started to db. This is a recap of it:
before dbing:
H said he wasn't in love with me anymore, doesn't know if he ever was, he was unhappy because of our marriage, was in love with OW. Wanted to be separated but live in the same house, said he would sleep on the couch, no more showers or ML. Told me to move on. I was begging, crying etc...
After dbing:
-continues to ML,shower, sleep with me, doesn't tell OW that we still do -admits that he is at fault for not telling me his true feelings about issues over the past year -admits that he was actually was in love with me, that he still loves me very much, but not 'in love'. -admits that he rarely ML with OW, that no-one turns him on the way I do. -admits that he has thought about coming back to me, but can't get past the anger, is scared he never will. -admits he hates thinking of me being with someone else -admits that he can't imagine life without me in it. -admits that he is very confused, wishes one of us would let him go. -admits that he picks fights with me so that I get angry and leave for a while - this may make him realize if he is just kidding himself about being with OW and not with me. -admits that he may not be 'in love' with OW, but there are elements there -admits that things may not work out with OW. -admits that all he does with OW is have fun, not based in reality. -admits he misses me all the time and hates hurting me. -when he is drunk or off his meds he tells me how much he loves me and wants to be with me. -still asks me to do stuff - go to bars, dinner, movies etc... -admits that he is being stupid, that he is fooling himself. I know that my H still has strong feelings for me, but he is scared to come back to me, he is happy when he is with OW, but he is also unhappy when he is not with me. He is very confused about which relationship to pursue.
I have tried to apply DB principles:
-be his friend -be the fun, easy-going person he fell in love with -lost 30 pounds and look the way I used to when we met -try to validate and be understanding of his feelings -don't make ultimatums or threats - no pressure -be physically closer to him -to go out with my friends and do things for myself
I believe that the above is keeping us close, but he continues to see OW. I can be the most wonderful, sexy person in the world, but if he can't forgive the past, what more can I do?
After reading Annalise perspective, it seems like I am enabling him, I am afraid of this. Do I need to be the one to force him to realize what he is doing? How do I do that? Do I take a stand? Doesn't this go against everything in DB?
Sinjin, yes when I apply some DB tecniques they work to get his attention and admit things to me, but IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE BOTTOM LINE - he is still seeing OW, still thinks we won't work out. How long do I need to keep doing the above?
When you say that ML is a powerful tool what do you mean? Are you saying that I can use this to my advantage? how? I could stop ML with him, but this was one of the problems we had before - he felt I didn't care if we ML or not. Also, won't he turn to OW more? I could continue to ML with him, but does that enable him to continue with OW?
Right now I will continue to try to DB as above, I will continue to ML with him as long as I AM comfortable with it. I will continue to be his friend, listen and validate as much as possible. Other than this I am at a loss.
I can stay home, but then he might never realize what he would be missing if I wasn't there for him. So should I stay but insist that we just act as friends - no showers, ml, sleeping together - this might have the same effect as me being gone, without actually leaving (he will realize that he needs me)
Should I just act the same - 'as if' OW doesn't exist like it says to in DB? Doesn't this send the message that I am okay with him being with OW? Doesn't this remove the guilt factor?
I can't find the right balance between 'enabling' him and 'pushing' him away.
SORRY to confuse! But you gotta admit, you were already pretty confused.
Look, I know this may be against DB... I don't know... but I do know one thing for sure... we teach people how we want to be treated in life. And then, that's pretty much the way they treat us. I would seriously question any strategy that goes against that principle.
We don't just teach people just with words. We teach people mostly with our BEHAVIOR. So... what are you are "teaching" H about how you expect to be treated as a wife? Just something to mull over.
I hope it's not against the rules to mention other web sites. Dr. Harley has a web site... it's called "Marriage Builders." VERY pro-marriage, anti-D, just like this site. But Harley advocates tons of love and kindness and support WITH setting clear limits for the wayward spouse. The website tells you EXACTLY how to go about doing that. Because you don't just want to keep H around, you want him to stop with the OW!...
Seems to me like DB is more about "preserving the M at all costs" while Marriage Builders is more about preserving the marriage while STOPPING the cheating.
Remember, these are two SEPARATE but related goals, preserving the M, and stopping the cheating. You know what I think? This is probably for sure not a DB approved statement. But, I think the MORE concerned you are about preserving the marriage at all costs, the LESS effective you will be at stopping the cheating. That just strikes me as gut level TRUE.
I am glad you did not get mad at my first note. And I am relieved you do not ML with H when you don't feel like it. Good point that you should not stop ML when he is YOUR H, not hers! It just worried me that he was QUESTIONING this, like he found it unfathomable or possibly looked down on it. That would be bad. There are SOOOO many different ways to look at things. It's CRAZY-MAKING.
That's why I still say, just being yourself without any strategy is not a bad way to go, and maybe the only way not to loose your mind!
Okay, I know I have never posted to any of you, but this discussion struck a chord with me.
I have been through the infidelity thing, and my H and I have ML all through our sep. At times, I told him I didn't want to if he was with someone else, because I thought that would stop him being with someone else. Instead, he took it as a sign that he could never win me back because he wasn't worthy of me. It's always beena weird issue, and at time the ML has been a very good thing, and at times it has made me question myself. But your answer to "ML or not to ML" doesn't have to be permanent. If it makes you feel bad, don't do it. If some night it makes you feel good and you want to, do it! Use protection (direct piece of advice from Michelle there). I wouldn't suggest you ever use ML as a tool, withholding it to produce a result or giving it to produce a result. The question is, what are YOU comfortable with? It doesn't matter what we think of your choices. What matters is how those choices make you feel about yourself.
You can't make your H stop cheating - I have been to the marriage builders site, and I agree that some of the info on there is wonderful, but it details some rules for a previously adulterous spouse - that might make your H feel like a 5-year-old.
You have to ask yourself, is this the time to ask for what I want? Because obviously you, and all of us out here, want him to stop seeing the OW. Immediately. And that is what he SHOULD do. But you have to think about what he would do if this demand came from you. He obviously isn't being quite reasonable right now, and he seems to be thinking mostly with his emotions, so a request like this would probably put him off.
So that brings me to the second question - what can you do to protect your good feelings about yourself? It is okay to say, "I don't want you to think that I am okay with the OW, but I love you, and I understand that you're struggling with some things right now." Then you decide on your own how close to him you can be and still feel okay about you.
It's time for me to leave work and pick up my son, but I will post more to you later, I think. Hugs, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
Okay, I know I have never posted to any of you, but this discussion struck a chord with me.
I have been through the infidelity thing, and my H and I have ML all through our sep. At times, I told him I didn't want to if he was with someone else, because I thought that would stop him being with someone else. Instead, he took it as a sign that he could never win me back because he wasn't worthy of me. It's always beena weird issue, and at time the ML has been a very good thing, and at times it has made me question myself. But your answer to "ML or not to ML" doesn't have to be permanent. If it makes you feel bad, don't do it. If some night it makes you feel good and you want to, do it! Use protection (direct piece of advice from Michelle there). I wouldn't suggest you ever use ML as a tool, withholding it to produce a result or giving it to produce a result. The question is, what are YOU comfortable with? It doesn't matter what we think of your choices. What matters is how those choices make you feel about yourself.
You can't make your H stop cheating - I have been to the marriage builders site, and I agree that some of the info on there is wonderful, but it details some rules for a previously adulterous spouse - that might make your H feel like a 5-year-old.
You have to ask yourself, is this the time to ask for what I want? Because obviously you, and all of us out here, want him to stop seeing the OW. Immediately. And that is what he SHOULD do. But you have to think about what he would do if this demand came from you. He obviously isn't being quite reasonable right now, and he seems to be thinking mostly with his emotions, so a request like this would probably put him off.
So that brings me to the second question - what can you do to protect your good feelings about yourself? It is okay to say, "I don't want you to think that I am okay with the OW, but I love you, and I understand that you're struggling with some things right now." Then you decide on your own how close to him you can be and still feel okay about you.
It's time for me to leave work and pick up my son, but I will post more to you later, I think. Hugs, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
Sorry I haven't posted to you for a while. (Everytime I would try something would happen) But it seems like you have had plenty of company. There are bits form each post that I would agree and disagree with. Instead of Quating each one, I will just give you my take on some of it.
1) Yes you should be yourself, but you also can come up with strategies and still be ture to yourself. I don't think coming up with a game plan or strategy as something bad like you are trying to manpulate H. But I see it as a tool for coping with everything that is going on. 2) I do agree that maybe you have to rework your goals. (But then at times everyone needs to do that.) You have already found out some things that have worked. Now work on the things that don't. 3) If H dose cross the boundies that both of you have talked about, yes you should bring it up. Maybe with less yelling but then we all are just human and doing the best we can. 4) Sex should never, NEVER be used as a way to get what we want. ML love is such a personal and spirtual thing it shouldn't be bought down as a simple tacit for getting one's way. (Anyway it would just backfire once the thruth came out that it was just to get ones way) 5) You can take a stand for yourself with out forcing anything. It is what the boundies are. And when you make H accountable for his actions. 6) If you pace to many rules and make H feel like a child it will just make Ow look that much better. 7) As much as we would like to we just can't change the bottom line. It is up to him to stop. The best you can do is to take care of you and be there when you can. 8) Keep going out and doing things that are for you. You know that it gets H to think. And it is always better being with friends and having fun than setting at home waiting for him to come home. Don't worry that if you not there it will just make him want to see or be with Ow. Do it for you not for hoping to get his attion. That goes for everything you do.
You make a good point about the Marriage Builders method being rather controlling, and how someone might resent it. It's true. Every "method" has it's pros and cons I guess.
Thank you all for your advice and opinions. It does help me to read about different perspectives cause it makes me think more objectively.
On tuesday night I heard him talking to OW on the phone, he said he was going to sleep now cause he was tired, he said ILY and good night. I didn't scream and yell at him as usual (he is not supposed to call her from our home when I am there) I told him that I found the website he was looking for. He said thanks, then he suggested we go out for drinks, I said okay. Then he asked me if something was wrong. I told him that I came to the room earlier to tell you about the website but,- but I was on the phone right? he said. I said yes quietly. Then I left the room to get ready. We didn't talk about our R at all. We just had a good time. Interesting that he told her was going to sleep, but then asked me out. (he really was tired though, I think it was more of a spontaneous thing, but I am sure he didn't tell OW about it afterwards)
We went to sleep, at about 2am he woke me up by kissing me, we ended up ML, then went back to sleep.
Last week he told my cousin that he would join his volleyball team that plays once a week at the docks. He didn't mention this to me. I think this will be a good thing - he will be spending time with my family and co-workers instead of with her. Right now he only does 2 things - spend time with me or her, he hasn't seen his friends or cousins for a long time. However, yesterday when I asked him about joining the team, he said he changed his mind. I said why? He said cause of our situation, it would be awkward. I told him no, cause no-one knows about out sitch and I won't be there either. Then I told him that my cousin already paid for him. He said he didn't realize that, and oh well, he guesses he has to play now.
This is typical from him since he started with OW, his first instinct is to do something, then later he changes his mind and doesn't go through with it. For example, he wanted to go to the movies with me to see that Jesus Christ movie - it is about doing the right thing morally etc... But when the time came to go, he changed his mind. Another time we were supposed to go to church for the last supper (the only time we go), he changed his mind on the last day. Now he wants to avoid hanging with my cousins. I think he is scared that it will affect him, that it will make him question his recent decisions. Also, my brother's stag is this saturday, he said he is going. (I wonder if he will change his mind again or if he will go meet her afterwards)
Wednesday was his night to go out with OW. He called me after work, he told me that he was at the international centre with his co=worker. He said they have a great sale there, he told me that I should go check it out. I said okay, but I can't go tonight cause I have to take his mom to the store. He said I could go the next day (thurs), he said he wanted to come with me. He was all excited about the good deals there. I said sure. Interesting how he calls me and says he wants to go with me, while he is on his way to met OW....
He came home from his night out with OW early, he wasn't drunk. No talk of us or OW. He just asked me if he could hug me, I said yes. In the morning he was quiet and a little distant. I asked him if he was going to the gym today, he said yes, asked me if I wanted to go too. I said no cause I won't get home from work in time.
When I got home from work, he had just come back from the gym. He suggested we go to the sale, take our son to the amusement center. I said sure. It was nice.
I tried on a new outfit I got in front of him, he was speechless, he said I looked so amazing, OMG. I said thank you. He then commented that I would make some guy really happy. I didn't respond, he asked if I heard him, I smiled and said yes but I am ignoring you. We both laughed.
When we were getting ready for bed we had the following conversation:
H: Do you still love me? Me: Yes H: When are you going to stop? Me: I don't know H: Do you think I am still in love with you? Me; No H: I don't love you the way I am supposed to love you. Me: I understand that. You know, that kind of love can be revived again, but you aren't trying, you're giving your heart to someone else right now.
H: Do you think I am in love with her? Me: I don't know H: I am, but I love you too.
H: I guess to make you happy, I will have to be miserable. Me: Being with me makes you miserable? H: NO, of course not, I love being with you and spending time with you. (this is opposite of what he has usually says) I mean that I will be miserable without her. Me: I am sorry. H: Well, I don't actually know how I will feel without her since I haven't tried it before. Me: That's true.
H: I don't think we will work anyways baby Me: Why do you keep saying that? H: Well, look at yesterday morning we got into a fight. (He was mad cause I took my time walking to start the car, meanwhile I was slow cause I was looking for my keys in my purse) Me: It wasn't a fight, we were both grumpy in the morning and irritated each other. That's not a reason to think we should be divorced is it? H: No, you are right it is not a reason, but it is an example - we never used to fight at the beginning. Me: Every couple has their arguments baby, no one is perfect. H: I know.
Then we went to sleep.
I know that he is still confused, but this time he mentioned that he doesn't know how he will feel without HER and opposed to without ME. This shows me that he is thinking about the consequences of leaving her instead of the usual - leaving me. Doesn't bring us any closer to a decision, but at least I know that he isn't dead set on choosing her.
I talked to him this morning, he told me that he was thinking about me in my new outfit. He said he is upset cause I didn't bother to look good when I was with him. He said he feels that I am dressing like that to spite him. That I wouldn't make that effort for him, but now I am making it to find someone else. I told him that wasn't true, I told him I wasn't looking for anyone else. I sent him the following email:
"I was thinking about what you said, and it makes me sad.
Please don't think that I am doing anything to spite you. I love you very much now and I loved you very much before.
I am sorry you feel that me not looking my best equals me not caring. That is not true. I told you that I didn't realize how important it was to you, and I didn't realize that you thought I didn't care enough about you to look good. I told you that I expressed my love for you in different ways. After we had that talk in Feb, I told you that I was going to take better care of myself, and that is what I am doing. I would never do anything to intentionally hurt you. I apoligize for hurting you in the past, and if I am hurting you now. You need to let go of the hurt and anger from the past baby,
please find a way in your heart to forgive me and let go of the pain....Just as I am trying to forgive you for what has happened. Neither of us will ever heal until we do. We need to try to be friends at least right?"
He keeps bringing this issue up, should I continue to validate and repeat what I said above? I feel that he needs reassurance about my motives and my feelings. I;ve told him this about 5 times now, but he still doesn't seem to get past it, and all the other ways I've 'hurt him' in the past.
