Yes Kitkat, he has always had a problem with drinking, he is not an alcholic, he can go for days/weeks without drinking. But whenever he is 'depressed' he tends to drink a lot. Also, once he starts drinking, he doesn't stop until he is drunk - ie 2 beers turn into 5 beers. I know it makes his depression worse. He tells me he drinks to 'forget'. What he doesn't seem to realize is that it is just a temporary escape, just like his bitch.
On Friday night we went to the harry potter movie with our son. It was nice, we still do everything together as a family that we used to do. He went out with OW that night but said he wasn't going to be out all night, that he would take a cab home if he got drunk. Well, of course he didn't show up until the morning. I was mad at him, he knew that he screwed up again (he is not supposed to let our son see that he stays out all night). He apoligized and told me that he got drunk and fell asleep but came home as soon as he woke up. He was holding me and said 'please just hug your husband right now okay?" So I hugged him back and he said he wished we could hold each other all day. I said me too. (I wanted to say that if he had bothered to come home we could have hugged all night but I didn't)
He said he wished he was still in love with me. I said you and I can be in love again, you were so in love with me before, why not try again? He told me that whenever he thinks about being in love with me again he gets really angry so he doesn't want to try. I told him that he needs to find a way to let go of all the anger and resentment he has inside.
I am glad he told me this cause it confirms that he is still very angry at me inside, also that he has actually tried to think about coming back to me.
We spend the day with our son and other nephews at an amusement park. It was nice. He asked me if I had a good time at the harry potter movie, I said yes, he said me too. Saturday night our son spent the night at his cousins house and H went out with the slut again.
On Sunday, we went to take our son and nephews to the park.
He asked me for a kiss, kept hugging me. We sat together on the bench and he put his arms around me. He asked me who I think he is with when he is not home. I said with her of course, why? isn't she who you are with? He said most of the time. (not sure why he is asking, unless he wasn't with her last night???)
When we got home we took a shower together and ML. He asked me if I would still ML with him when I get a new boyfriend? I said no, that I can't be with 2 people at once. That if I was to be intimate with someone else, it would mean that we were over. He said, but aren't we over now? I said not exactly, that I still love him, and that we are still attached in many ways. He seemed upset at the idea of us not ML anymore.
His bank has been having a major computer problem and thousands of people who have automatic payroll deposit were not paid last week. He was supposed to be paid on Friday, but he wasn't. We talked about how awful it was for people who needed their paycheck not having any money for the weekend. He agreed and said he was in the same boat. I said no, that he has credit cards, and he has me too. He looked at me and said I was right, that I am still there for him, even after everything he has done. He said he knows that I haven't stopped loving him yet, that I am such a good person. He said he is so sorry for putting me through this. I said I know you are sorry. We hugged.
As I changed my clothes he commented that I have sexy clothes now, and that I would make some guy really happy. I said I know I will. He said I wouldn't dress this way for him before. I told him that I didn't have the body to dress like this until now, that I did dress nicely when I was with him but it didn't look as good.
I know that he is angry at me for making all these changes NOW, instead of before.
We went out for a cigarette, he told me that he feels sad today. I said I didn't like when he was sad. He said he is always sad anyways so today was no different. I said I know. He said he is F%#$ed up. I said I know. He looked at me and said what do I mean by saying that I know? I said I know you are F$^$^#ed up right now, I left it at that. He couldn't sleep, said he was going to watch TV on the couch and would come to the room if he got sleepy. I said okay, goodnight. He came about 1 hour later.
This morning he told me that we should stop hugging so much. I said okay and just continued getting ready for work.
I don't know how things are going with OW, I am just acting as if, and trying to DB. I can't detach properly, but at least on the surface I try to act like I am letting him go.
I think he really does want to come back to me but 2 things are stopping him:
1. The OW - she is his escape from reality, all they do is drink together, so now his drinking and his bitch go hand and hand. I know I can't do anything about OW, so I am just letting him be.
2. The anger and resentment he has towards me. I know that he alone has to deal with his feelings. But I can help him realize that he needs to address it. What reasons can I give him to show that it is important to let go of his negative feelings towards me? Is there anything I can suggest he can do to start the healing process?
I got home from work yesterday and H was working on the backyard, cutting down some trees that were touching the garage. His mom was gardening, putting in some new plants that H had bought for her. I helped him clean up, then we went to home depot to get some stuff. He asked me why I looked sad. I told him that I was watching everyone working on the house and I got sad cause we may not be able to live there anymore. My H asked me if something had changed? Did I change my mind about being separated and want a divorce instead? I said no, but that I thought he did. He said he didn't want to sell the house, that we had worked hard on it and he didn't want to disrupt our son's life by moving. He said eventually one of us will have to move out, but that he wanted to try to keep our son in the home. I said, so in other words, I will have to leave. He said no, either you or me. I told him that I don't want to sell our home either, but then I said 'how long are we going to be separated? it can't be forever. He didn't say anything, and I didn't want to argue about it. When we got home, he suggested we go to a bar for a few drinks. I said sure (it's been almost a month since the 2 of us went out alone just for fun.
At the bar we talked about lots of stuff, laughed had a good time. I didn't mention our R at all. But then H did. Here is our conversation:
H: You said you are making all these changes for you, so why didn't you do this for yourself before? Me: I am doing it now so I can feel better about myself. H: Why couldn't you do this for ME before? Me: I didn't realize how important it was to you. I did so many things for you to show you how much I love you. H: I know you did, but that is not what I needed. Me: I understand that now baby. H: I know I didn't communicate properly with you.
H: Even if OW wasn't in the picture, we would still be breaking up . Me: You don't know that, things are different now between us, we have a better understanding of each other. I don't want to go back to our old relationship, you weren't happy then. I know it would take time for us to be okay again, it will take a lot of work.
Me: Are you happy now baby? H: That's hard to say. I am happy that you finally understand how I feel and that I told you what was bothering me. I am happy when I am with her, BUT LIKE YOU SAID - IT'S NOT REAL, ALL WE DO IS HAVE FUN. (I can't believe he finally admits this!) H: I have no idea how she would react to real situations. It's like how you and I were at the beginning, no real responsibilities. We were happy too, but...... (I stayed quiet and let him continue...)
H: I am not planning anything with OW, I am not making any promises to her. I don't want to get into this situation again. I don't plan on getting married again for many years, maybe when I am in my forties. (he's 29). I don't know who I will be with then. I am so sad about this cause I really want to have children, it's my main goal in life, I wouldn't mind having one right now but I guess I never will.
Me: You and I could still have a baby right now. H: yeah right (sarcastic) (I don't know if this is cause he is mad because he blames me for waiting to have kids, or because of our current situation) Me: We already started to try a few months ago remember. (He became quiet so I dropped the subject)
H: I really need for us to be friends, I can't imagine you not being in my life. Me: But, I am still in love with you, how can we just be friends? H: I hope you let me be your friend. (I didn't say anything, we changed the subject)
Well, I think it was a good conversation, H asked many of the same questions as before, and I had better answers that validated him. I didn't pursue many of the topics that would cause us to argue. I think he is finally listening/realizing some of the things I have been telling him for the past 3 months. Now that he is starting to open his eyes I will bring up the following things for him to consider (of course only if he initiates the conversation):
1. He admits that he is in lalaland when he is with her, he doesn't know how she will be in real life. - I will ask him if he has been honest with her about our sitch yet? Doesn't he think she deserves to know the truth? I know the whole sitch and I am still here, how do you think she will react?
2. When he says he doesn't want to get married again etc... - I will ask him if he has told OW how he feels? Does she know that he won't be able to make a committment to her or any for many years? Doesn't she deserve to know what she is getting into? Is it fair for him to string her along?
3. When he tells me that he needs us to be close friends in the future. - I will explain to him that I cannot move on in my life if we are 'friends' the way we are now. I am very much in love with him and will not be able to honestly commit to another. Also, I will not be able to see him with OW, it hurts to much - I will end up hating him. That I would love to be his friend, but it wouldn't be good for either of us. (of course I just want him to realize that he can't have both me and OW)
After this conversation, I realize that I just need to continue to be patient. After the wedding (5 more weeks) we are supposed to discuss our separation and making it official....we'll see what happens from now to then.
The next night he was holding me and said that he is spoiling me because we still act like a couple - hugging kissing etc... Next time he says this, I will say that I am spoiling him by taking care of the house, family responsiblities, finances etc... as if we are still married. That he won't be able to do many of the things he likes to do if I am not here...
He also said this before we feel asleep:
H: You know we aren't going to end up together right? Me: shrugged my shoulders. H: You understand this right? Me: Yes, if that is what you want.
Loveforever, You are handling yourself so well in your sitch...I admire you. It's been a while since I responded, but I've been following your thread closely. It's so hard to hear my H tell me about his feelings for OW. I hate seeing the look on his face when I know he is missing her or thinking about her. It's very difficult to control myself when he tries to pick fights with me. I think he is looking for reasons to find imperfections in me so he can justify leaving (refresher on our sitch...he is in an apt now...has been since March but I see him often).
I thought we were making great progress recently, but I drove by his apt (first and last time) one night when I had one of my gut feelings, and I saw her truck there. He tried to call me all day the next day but I ignored his calls (as long as I could stand it). It shook him up that "old reliable" me was actually not reachable for once. He was much more attentive for a while, but it didn't last.
We spent most of last weekend together, but I could tell his mind was somewhere else. He just laid around and slept a lot. Last night he dropped our son off, and he told me he was depressed because OW was steering clear of him at work. He said she felt too bad about this sitch hurting my feelings...ya right...like she didn't think about that 2 years ago when they started this thing? Anyway, he proceeded to tell me that it really hurt her when he told her she couldn't be around my S6 anymore (he was "abiding by my wishes"). He is always raving about how smart and mature she is (even tho she is only 20) and that he has never felt this way about anyone before.
I was getting great at detaching for a while, but our conversation last night just threw me in a sinker. August 1st is dday...1 year ago...and I feel like not much has changed. His apt lease is up at the end of August, so he'll need to make a decision as to whether he is coming home or extending it/moving somewhere else. Her 21st bday is coming up next month. I don't know if that will make things worse...they could spend more time in the bars together. Guess I'll worry about that when the time comes.
You're so great at handling your H's questions. I try to follow your examples but usually end up getting mad and defensive and the conversation ends.
I'm seeing a C now, but she is not the kind Michelle recommends so I am getting a lot of "What are the benefits of you being in this relationship" and "I don't know if you are a silly woman or a saint for putting up with this situation". Guess I'll take what I can get out of the 3 free sessions and look for another one.
It seems like you are really doing well for only being 3 months into your sitch. I was a mess at that point, and it's taken me this long to get to a point where I can somewhat concentrate on the rest of my life. I really enjoy reading your updates. Best of luck to you!!
I am sorry that I haven't been posting back. I have had trouble detachiing. And I didn't want to post on your sitch until I could look at things for a better point of view. I didn't want my negative to color what I was saying.
Quote: I think he really does want to come back to me but 2 things are stopping him:
1. The OW - she is his escape from reality, all they do is drink together, so now his drinking and his bitch go hand and hand. I know I can't do anything about OW, so I am just letting him be.
2. The anger and resentment he has towards me. I know that he alone has to deal with his feelings. But I can help him realize that he needs to address it. What reasons can I give him to show that it is important to let go of his negative feelings towards me? Is there anything I can suggest he can do to start the healing process?
There is nothing you really can do beside being as suportive as you can be. Any suggustions comeing from you will be you trying to change him,(in his eyes) And that will just make Ow look more tempting. And I really don't know of a way to suggest someone else strat the healing process. But when he does just be there as much as you can.
Quote: When we got home, he suggested we go to a bar for a few drinks. I said sure (it's been almost a month since the 2 of us went out alone just for fun.
That great that yall got out and done something together. Is there anything that yall use to do when you was frist together that is not related to drinking. (maybe see if yall can strat doing that)
Quote: Well, I think it was a good conversation, H asked many of the same questions as before, and I had better answers that validated him. I didn't pursue many of the topics that would cause us to argue. I think he is finally listening/realizing some of the things I have been telling him for the past 3 months. Now that he is starting to open his eyes I will bring up the following things for him to consider (of course only if he initiates the conversation):
It is good that he is relizing that what he has with Ow is not based in realty. And you are doing a great job bitting your tonge and not pursueing the topics that would cause a fuss.
Quote: The next night he was holding me and said that he is spoiling me because we still act like a couple - hugging kissing etc... Next time he says this, I will say that I am spoiling him by taking care of the house, family responsiblities, finances etc... as if we are still married. That he won't be able to do many of the things he likes to do if I am not here...
like that you pointed out what all you take care of in a non-fussing why. (I would love to point out what all my H get by with because I am in the backgoound taking care of things. But it always sounds like I am nagging and trying to start a fight.) I think that if they see that what they have grown to be acustom to is because we are there helping, it might make theam think twice on somethings.
Keep up the great work. You are doing a great job.
thanks almost 40 and kitkat, I have more drama to report, I swear everytime I say I am going to back off, more s&*(t hits the fan....
He didn't show up until 4am, he knew he had to drive me to work for an early meeting at 7am. I still woke him up and he drove me with no complaint. I thanked him.
On thurs after work we were regrouting a table that we made for our patio. It's long and tedious work. He was being a jerk, making comments about me finding a guy etc...While we were out there his cell phone rang, he looked at it and said 'oh, I guess I can't take this call'. I said (stupidly) 'if you don't want to talk to her, I have a few things I'd like to say.' He got pissed and said that he wasn't taking the call out of respect for me. He asked me what I wanted to tell her? I said the truth about us. He said why, what difference does it make, what happens between you and me, and me and her have nothing to do with one another. I got pissed and said that was bullshit, I said you agreed with me that all you do is have fun. Maybe that's because she doesn't know that we sleep together etc... I know everything about our situation, and I am still here, what do you think she would do if she knew?
He said it doesn't matter, that even if they don't work out, he is not coming back to me. I said fine then, what are you waiting for? Go get the divorce papers! He said he was waiting for me to move on. I said bullshit, you are not just waiting for me to move on, you admitted that you are not sure what you want. That you wish that we could be happy like we were before. He said no, that he meant he wished he could be happy with HER, the way we were. I totally lost it, he KNOWS that he meant me, he has said it on more one occasion. I told him that the loser in this situation was our son. He said why cause he won't have you anymore? I said yes, but also because we are supposed to provide him with security and stability and give him an example of what a loving family is. He said that he will have 'someone else' to give him that. I screamed that his bitch will never raise my son. He said whatever. He said that he wasn't going to give me mixed messages anymore, that I would see how he would act from now on. I said oh, so you're going to be an [censored] now? Well I can be a bitch too. We continued to work on the table in silence. After I asked him if he was going out? He said no. I went inside got my purse and told him that I was going out. He came over and hugged me, he told me that he wasn't going to act like an [censored], and that he was sorry for fighting with me, and the things he said. I said me too.
He asked me if he could sleep in our bed, I said sure. I left - This was a 180, I have never gone out on a weeknight and left him at home. I came back about 2 hours later, he was sitting on the couch.
I went to the basement and saw that his laptop from work was on, I have been trying to get into that thing for months. I wanted to see if there were emails etc... between them. I wanted to figure out what their relationship is really like, and maybe what he sees in her.
Anyways he was still logged on so I snooped. I tried a few passwords that he used to use and bingo I got in!
There weren't any emails from her that I could find, however, there were emails back and forth between him and his only friend that knows whats going on. Most of them are from a few months ago. I learned a lot of stuff, I will summarize it:
1. At the beginning, he liked her, but wasn't serious. He felt really guilty about what he was doing to me. He couldn't sleep etc...
2. He didn't trust her, he was checking her emails and she was talking about other guys.
3. She keeps talking about her ex, and it pisses him off.
4. His friend was giving him good advice, telling him that he needs to decide what to do. That he shouldn't leave me for her, that if he is unhappy with me, that he should leave and be on his own for a while. Also that it sounded like they were falling for each other and that he needs to be careful.
5. She lives with her parents.
6. He asked her if she was just having fun with him, found out that she wants the whole package with him - marriage, kids etc... He told her that even if he does leave me, he will not get married to anyone again, not for a VERY long time. (at least he was honest with her about that, but I don't think she believes him)
7. She asked him if he still sleeps with me, he said yes, that I was his wife. She got mad, starting screaming and hitting him. She told him that if he wanted sex, he could get if from her anytime. ([censored] WHORE)
8. He sent her an email that I sent to him, telling him that I was having a hard time adjusting to our separation.
(he probably did this to prove to her that we are separated, but it still felt like a betrayal to me)
Although it really hurt to read his emails, it proved everything I said before is true. I warned him that she would want more than 'fun' from him. I also suspected that she would freak if she found out that we are still sleeping together etc.. He is totally lying to her.
I went upstairs and told him that I was going to sleep now. He hugged me and I told him that he was really stupid for getting involved with this girl, that I didn't appreciate him sending her my personal messages to him.
I also told him that since he can get all the sex he needs from her, I would no longer be sleeping with him. I also told him that I am an idiot for trusting him, that I won't forgive him for hurting me this way. I was angry and upset, but very matter of fact.
He couldn't believe I found out all this stuff, he asked me if I hired a private investigator. I said no, then he asked me if I talked to her? I said no, he didn't believe me, he wanted to know what we said to each other. I told him that he is so lousy at covering his tracks, that I don't need to talk to her or hire a PI. He was so freaked, I told him that i read his emails to his friend. He seemed relieved. Then he was dumbfounded at how I got into his laptop, he told me that I would make an excellent detective, he wasn't being sarcastic, more like he admired me. I actually felt proud of myself (Is this sick or what?? haha)
Anyways I told him, in a very calm detached voice, that he has dug himself into a hole and I don't know how he is going to get out. I told him that I was going to get an aids test done because she is obviously a whore, who was talking to other guys even when she was with him. I told him that I don't trust him when he says he uses protection with her, I need to take care of myself.
I told him that I hope she ends up being worth losing everything, but that I know she is not.
We went to the room and he told me that he was worried about me, that he always worries about me when I go out. He told me that he tried to sleep in our bed, but couldn't sleep there without me so he went to the couch. I asked him what he was going to do when I leave (usually I say 'if' I leave) He said he won't be able to sleep at home without me. He then made some confessions to me.
He told me that he picks fights with me because he wants me to get so mad that I leave. Then he can see if he is fooling himself believing that we are over. (great logic huh? - He can't decide that unless I am actually gone)
I told him that I have tried to leave before, but he always stops me. I told him that he will miss me when I am gone. He said he misses me now.
He said that when he is with her, he is happy, he doesn't think about anything else except for her (and our son.)When he is with me, he keeps thinking of ways to break us up. I told him that is because she is an escape from reality for him. I am the postersign for real life.
He said he is being torn apart inside, that is why he wishes he never met her. He wants to be with her but that we are so intwined together that it would be easier for him to cut off his leg then to leave me. He said he knows he is being stupid, that what he wants is unattainable
(? - it's attainable with me you idiot). He started crying, hard. I just held him. He asked me what he should do? He said he feels like dying. I told him that I read an article that I think will help him, it is about the person having the affair. He said yes, he would like to read it. I also told him that he needs to stop running away from his unhappiness, that he keeps going for the quick fixes. I told him he should read the book on depression, that he needs to understand why he isn't happy in life. He was silent on this. (he still doesn't believe depression has anything to do with our problems)
We went to bed but I couldn't sleep, I told him that I was going for a smoke, he grabbed me and asked me to please not leave him alone in the bed, even if he fell asleep. He said he didn't want to wake up and find me gone. I said okay and continued to hug him. I told him that I have had to wake up alone many times over the past few months.
In the morning, there was tension between us. I was sad, he wasn't sure how to act and neither was I. I know that I told him no more sex, but I wonder if that was a good idea? Maybe I will just let things cool off for a bit. I don't want to lose that connection with him unless I actually leave him for a while.
He was still very touch feely with me, and I was with him too.
We were working together outside again and I told him that I knew that she wanted more from him. He said it doesn't matter, that no-one is going to tell him what to do. He said he never wants to be in the position the two of us ar in again.
He asked me to sit on his lap. I went over and he started kissing me, he gave me a hickey. So I said I would return the favour - at first he resisted, then he said okay, give me one here - pointing to his upper chest as opposed to his neck. I gave him one, but it wasn't too big? (much to my dismay) Then I said "you're going to get in trouble hahahaha!" and we both laughed (WTF???)
Does this mean that he WANTS OW to see it?
Or does it mean that they won't sleep together tonight, so she won't see it anyways???
I don't know what the hell is going on, but it is the same story as the past few weeks, he is realizing that he can't let me go so easily, but keeps pulling away from me until I call his bluff. On the other hand, he keeps spending more time with OW.
He asked me to model the dress I bought for my brothers wedding. I said okay. He told me I look so beautiful and sexy. I said thank you. The dress is sleeveless and the straps wrap around my neck. It is very elegant and sexy. I have NEVER worn a sleeveless dress before.
Later he came to the room and told me that he is mad at me cause of the dress and my new 'look'. He said that I waited until 'all of this stuff' happened before I changed. He said he almost feels that I am doing it to spite him. I told him softly that I am sorry he feels that way, I said I am not doing anything to spite him.
He is so resentful and angry at me under the surface.
He is going out with her tonight. Before he left, he asked me if I wanted to go see that Michael Moore movie when it comes out? I said sure. He said remember we both really liked the other one he made? I said yes, I remember.
He said he was going to the gym tommorow night, he asked me to come along. I said yes.
I am not on a roller coaster, instead, I feel like an elastic band, almost everyday our relationship is being stretched in two different directions at the same time - one extreme to the other - then we snap back to the same position again. God give me strength, and give my H the strength to make a decision.
Well, Friday night he went out with her, on Saturday morning I left early to go shopping, I didn't call him. Around 1pm, he calls my cell. He was at home. He said he felt weird, he asked if I wanted to go to the movies with him? I said okay, but that it would take me about 45mins to get home. He got sad and said that it was too long!. He said he would go to work on his brothers place. I said okay, I'll come by there later. When I got there I helped him a bit, then we were lying on the couch and he started kissing me.
We went home and he got in the shower, I said I would be there in a minute, he said 'what for?'. So I got pissed and said 'forget it then.' He called me back but I said no, it was okay, I would shower later on my own. He kept asking me to come there, but I ignored him. Then when he came to the room, I asked him if he was going out? He said yes. I said I was too.
Then he suggested we ML. I said no, I told him that I wasn't going to ML with him knowing that he was going out with her right after. He asked me if I was ever going to ML with him again. I said I don't know. But I told him that if he was going out with me tonight instead then maybe I would have, but whatever. He asked me to sit with him and he hugged me. He told me that he really missed me this morning and that he was sad when I wasn't home cause he wanted to hold me. I told him I am sad everytime I wake up and he isn't there for me to hold. We kissed passionately and then I told him that I miss being with him, he said he misses me too. Then he said to call him if I need to talk to him, I said why, he never answers the phone anyway. He said to leave a message and he'll call right back. I said no, it's okay, I don't want to bother him. Then I told him to lock up the house cause I was leaving now. He said noooo, don't leave yet. I said why? Aren't you leaving to be with her as soon as you are ready? He said yes, so I said 'why should I wait here since you're going out anyways.' I gave him a kiss and left. He looked a bit shaken up.
Around 1am, he came home. I thought I was imagining things, he hasn't come home until morning for the past few months unless Daniel is home. More surprisingly he hadn't drinken anything. He put a 6pack of unopened beer in the fridge.
I was surprised but acted like normal. He told me that he wasn't feeling very well so he came home. I said I hope he feels better. We watched tv, then we ML and went to sleep. Sunday we woke up and we got some breakfast, then we watched the soccer game together. He didn't receive or make any personal phone calls the whole time.
I find this very strange since he bought beer, but never drank it. He came home, no calls to or from OW. He was a bit testy, I could tell he was mad. I asked him what was wrong, he said that he is mad cause I haven't let him go yet. I said okay then, what more would you like me to do? How am I stopping you from doing anything? He said that he can't make personal calls in front of me. I said that is out of respect for me, but you can go outside and call or when you are in your car. I am doing as you asked, so don't blame me for your anger. He said I was right. He told me that sometimes he really enjoys spending time with me, but then after a few days he becomes very irritated and angry with me. I told him that is because he is still mad at me under the surface.
He asked me if I love him, I said yes. Then he asked me when I was going to move on? I told him that it shouldn't matter to him, what difference did it make?
He again told me that he loves me very much and wants me to be happy. He asked if I think he is still in love with me. I said no, I realize that he is not in love with me, but that he does love me deeply. I asked him if he thought the love he had for OW was real? He surprised me and said no, he doesn't really know, but that there are definately elements of love there.
I agreed with him, but said that it takes more than 'romantic love' for a relationship to last.
He said that the 2 of us just fell out of love. I said no, that HE feel out of love with me. I asked him if he understood why?
He said there were many factors, the main one being communication. I said that is right, misunderstanding each others needs and not communicating properly caused resentment to build up inside you. Resentment kills love, and you are still full of resentment towards me. You need to let go of it.
I told him that we have many bonds between us that make our love strong. I said that the love that we used to have can be restored, but it would take hard work. I told him that I am not waiting for him to break up with her. I told him I was just letting him know what I have learned about relationships and feelings, and that things are different between us now, but that it was not irreversable, that we could develop those romantic feelings again one day, once the anger is dealt with.
We went to sleep and he was restless. Monday morning he seemed distant, but wasn't cold. He kissed me goodbye. He called me at work an hour later and was very nice. He told me that he feels bad today. I told him I do too. I told him that I wish I could hug him right now. He said no, that I would make him feel worse if I was there. I said that I was sorry he wasn't feeling well, I asked him if there was anything I could do for him? He said no. He told me that he got the credit card he applied for. I said congrats, but please be careful. He said don't worry, he has learned his lesson and he won't make the same mistake this time. (???) I kept the conversation light and then said goodbye. I forwarded him a funny email I got.
I don't know what has happened between him and OW. Maybe something, maybe nothing? I know I can't have any expectations and I just need to concentrate on me and ignore them. I need to focus on the positives - he came home to me instead of staying with her, he admitted that isn't sure about his feelings for her....
On tuesday morning he called me and told me that he was going out that night instead of wednesday. Our son was going to his cousins house for the evening. He said he told me cause he didn't want me to get upset. I said 'why, cause it's our anniversary wednesday?'. He said 'oh yeah, I forgot about that'. So he meant that he didn't want me to get upset since our son wouldn't be home anyways.
I went home and no-one was there, I felt really lonely, I went over to our cousins house, but no one was home. I called my H to see if he knew where they were. He didn't answer. But he called me back a few minutes later, he told me that they went shopping. I said thanks and goodbye.
He showed up around 1AM - earlier than usual. He had been drinking. He asked me if I stopped loving him yet? I didn't really answer, more like grunted since I was half asleep. He took my answer as a no, then he said that he wanted to tell me something, but since I don't love him anymore, he won't. I told him that I never said that. He came over and hugged me and said:
"I am going to tell you this anyways. Even though I was out with someone else tonight I couldn't stop thinking about you. I heard people laughing, and I thought of you laughing, I heard (not sure what he said), and I thought of you. I kept thinking how happy I would have been if I was out with you instead. I love you so much."
I told him I love you too. We hugged and went to sleep.
I know that he was tipsy, otherwise I don't know if he would have admitted his feelings to me. But I am very happy that he told me this, it shows me that he is starting to think about me when he is with OW, instead of being totally obsessed with her.
Today is our anniversary. I didn't say anything to him, but I bought him a card and left it in his bag. Nothing to
heavy, it's not even an anniversary card, it says that I feel so lucky to have met him, tells him I will never forget him, and thanks him for being there over the years, and creating fond memories.
He just sent me an e-card. It was a teddy bear flying through the air giving hugs. The message said one cute bear hug coming your way. He said "thank you for the card, hope you have a great day, and by the way, happy anniversary."
No I love you's, but still warm and cute, seems he tried to make it casual but acknowledge it at the same time. He followed my lead I guess.
I wonder what will happen today/tonight. I am not expecting anything, I am just glad he won't be out with her.
He called me from work, he asked me what he told me when he got home last night. I told him what he said. Then I asked him why he wanted to know? He said that he knows he tells me stuff when he is drunk and he just wanted to know what he said this time. Personally, I know that they talked to each other in the morning. They probably go into a fight about me again last night, but he doesn't remember what happened. So he is asking me how he was acting.
After I told him, he said it is true, he does think about me a lot, but he also thinks about OW a lot too. He said he is very confused, that his head is scrambled. I said yes, like scrambled eggs (trying to keep the conversation light).
He then told me that regardless of what he said, things haven't changed. He told me that he doesn't want me to wait for him, he thinks that is what I am doing. I said no, I am not waiting for him. He said he doesn't know what to do. He told me that he wishes one of us would let him go. I told him that I have already let him go, what more would he like me to do? He said he wants me to find someone else and move on. I told him that when and if I do find someone else it will be my decision, and that it shouldn't matter to him one way or the other.
He asked me if I wanted to go to dinner for our anniversary tonight. I said sure, that would be nice. He said we would talk later. Then he called me again after lunch, for no particular reason.
When I got home, our son wanted to go to the park, he asked me if I still wanted to go out? If it was important to me then we would go out. I said it was okay, that he should take our son to the park and I would make us a nice dinner at home. He said okay, we kissed and they left. The night was kind awkward, he seemed distant, not as touch feely as usual. We ML and then went to sleep.
I think he is pulling back cause of what he told me when he was drunk. I think he is trying to show me that he is not coming back to me and doesn't want me to think that anything has changed. (even though it has gotten better in my mind). I will back off, and continue to validate as much as possible. It is hard to do this cause of his constant questions and negative comments. But actions speak louder than words. And I know his true emotions come out when he is drunk or off his meds. I know that if things keep progressing the following questions will arise, how should I answer them?
-When he says he wishes one of us would let him go.
should I tell him that he is the one that needs to make the decision?
-When he asks me why I still ML with him, knowing that he is also ML with OW?
should I ask him to ask OW that question instead, that she needs to know the whole picture, that he is not being fair to her or me by keeping the truth from her? She is basing her decision to continue this affair on false pretences. (of course she wants to be with him, it's all fun and games, she doesn't know the effect she is having on our family or that he is torn up inside, or that we are still acting like man and wife - I know the truth and I am still here....)
-If he says he knows he should be with me, but doesn't want to hurt her?
Sorry I have been keeping up (I have been making myself get out of the house more often to stop thinking of SITCH all the time.) It has helped. It sounds like you have been dealing with a lot.
I don't know where to start. I guess I started with your last post. Now IMHO:-
Quote: When he says he wishes one of us would let him go.
should I tell him that he is the one that needs to make the decision?
That seems like the best answer. As for him wanting you to let go and find someone else. You can let go and not find someone else. And after the hurt you have went thru it might be a while before you want in another R if this don't work out. You might want to point out to him that. Maybe use your tack I always come across the wrong way.
Quote: When he asks me why I still ML with him, knowing that he is also ML with OW?
should I ask him to ask OW that question instead, that she needs to know the whole picture, that he is not being fair to her or me by keeping the truth from her? She is basing her decision to continue this affair on false pretences. (of course she wants to be with him, it's all fun and games, she doesn't know the effect she is having on our family or that he is torn up inside, or that we are still acting like man and wife - I know the truth and I am still here....)
Honey I seem to think that you are giving the woman more heart than she has. He has tried to break it off with her and she still pulls him back. I think she may know what she is doing to your family in some form or another. She may not get the big pic. but engough to know she is doing damge. And you knows that may be what she is after. She may already know the truth.
Quote: If he says he knows he should be with me, but doesn't want to hurt her?
Now don't take this the wrong way. What are is shoulds? You can think along the lines of shoulds but wants seem to be eaiser to go for. He should stay with you but dosen't want to hurt her. What about hurting you?
Try to pin point his shoulds and do your best to make the into wants. exp...
He should stay with your becouse of family. Start doing more fun things as a family. Then maybe the should will turn into want.
When you pinpoint theam break them down and find the first step to want. The family thing is the only thing that I could think of off the top of my head.
You keep saying that they are in la la land it is all fun and games. Maybe you should fight fire with fire. No daily dicsuions, exp.... day to day things like bills and house stuff (The day to day things that weigh us all down) When he start tjo rehash the same R topics (It seems like he ask the same stuff over just phrasees if differ.) Look at him and say, I belive we have had this talk before, I don't want to go over the same old stuff and feel bad about the same old stuff. Basicly just stop it before it gets to the point were one or both of you feel bad.
Try your best to keep things light and fun. We need to look at what is the cheeseless tunnal here. Cause it seems like yall are going over the same stuff. I might be wrong, God knows I am no expert on getting away from the cheeseless tunnal. I still wait for the cheese to be deliver I think.
On friday I went to a bridal shower, H went to the movies with our son.
On Saturday night, I put on this REALLY sexy outfit to go clubbing. But then I took it off to shave my legs. He asked me why I needed to shave my legs if I was wearing pants? I said cause there are slits in the side that show my legs. He said 'yeah sure, whatever'. Then he left to go out with OW.
Later that night I was talking to my son and I found out my H invited the OW to the movies with our son the night before. Naturally I totally lost it - he agreed not to bring her near our home or family. She was introduced to our son as a friend. I called his cell and left a very angry message
On sunday when he came home he asked if I was mad at him, I said what the [censored] do you think? I said how dare he bring that whore near our son? I said did you have a nice little family outing? I told him that if he thinks he can replace me with her in our son's eyes he is crazy. I told him that he doesn't know right from wrong anymore. I said that he wanted one of us to let him go? Well I am letting him go, I told him that we are going to be separated for real, I would no longer be there for him. He could sleep outside for all I care. I told him to be happy with his [censored] whore, that I hope she was worth losing everything for. I screamed at him for about 1 hour, normally he wouldn't take it, he would argue back. But he was quiet. When I was done I left the room.
Later he came over and said he wanted to talk to me. He apoligized for what he did. He told me he didn't think it would upset me so much. He said that it wasn't planned, that she called and he told her that they were going to watch a movie, she said she could meet them there. He said that he introduced her as a friend to our son, that they barely talked. They didn't hold hand or kiss or do anything to indicate that they were more than friends. After they left in separate cars. He told me that he wouldn't bring her out with our son again. He told me that he would never try to replace me with our son and he was sorry I felt like that is what he was doing.
He told me that he was upset yesterday when he seen that I was going out clubbing. He said he hates to think of me with someone else, but then he thinks about what he is doing with OW and he knows that it is his fault. He told me that I shouldn't wait for him while he tries to sort out his head. I said what happens if you sort it out, but it is too late (meaning I have moved on)? He said that then it would be his loss. I agreed.
He asked me if I was going out for father's day? (last week he told me he wasn't going to come with me) I told him yes, that I was meeting my family for dinner at six. He asked me if he could come along. I said sure, if you want to. So we went. It was actually pretty fun. Sometimes I forget about our true situation.
When we got home, he said he was going to sleep on the couch. I said that was a good idea. He looked hurt and said what did I mean? I just shrugged my shoulders. After he came to the room and asked if he could please sleep in our bed? I said okay, but that if we were truly separated, I wouldn't be here for him to sleep with. He said he understands that. I asked him if he really wants to be separted that we should start acting like it. He said I was right, but that it was very hard.
He said he is all torn up inside that he cares so much about 'that other one', but he can't let go of me either. I told him that he better make up his mind before it is too late.
I got really sad, he asked me what was wrong. I told him that I found out my cousin is pregnant. I said that I was sad cause I was supposed to be pregnant by this summer too. He said softly, but you didn't want to have a baby with me remember? I said that wasn't true. He said if I really did want to have a baby that we could have one now, but that our relationship wasn't very stable, did I still want to have one with him even if in the end we can't work things out? I said I don't know. He said for me to think about it....
We are both really screwed up huh? 2 weeks ago I was telling him that if he really wanted to have a baby we could have one right now. It's like we have reversed roles....
We were hugging and we ended up ML twice during the night.
Yesterday, he asked me if I wanted him to stop seeing OW and stay with me. I said yes. He said 'even if she makes me happy?" I said no then, stay with her. It really hurt to hear him say that she makes him happier than I do.
After he said that I told him that I was going to sleep now, I wasn't mean or upset, but he knew I was hurting. He hugged me and told me that he wanted to talk to me.
He told me that he has thought about coming back to me a few times, but then he gets angry. Angry about all the things in the past. He gave me the same examples as before, (most of these things happened over 2 years ago). I explained to him that I didn't understand how important those things were to him, that I asked him how he felt back then and he would always say he was okay with my decisions. How was I supposed to know how he really felt? I couldn't read his mind. He agreed that he was at fault because he never told me the truth about his feelings, he just kept everything inside. He grew angrier and angrier at me over time, and now he doesn't think he will ever stop. He says he doesn't know if he and OW will last much longer, but he can't see himself coming back to me now either.
I told him again that he needs to learn to forgive me and let go of the anger. He said how? I said I don't know.
He asked me to please try to be his friend, that when I fight with him, it just makes him angrier and drives him farther away. He said he thinks that I am telling his mom everything and that he is sick of her meddling. I told him I will tell her again to back off. He said she is making things much worse for us.
He told me that he fights with OW about me often. He said that many times they are talking and he will mention me, saying stuff like 'oh s and I went to that,' or s and I have one of those'. He said that we are so entwined together. He also said that if the situation were reversed, he would let me go and find my happiness. I told him that it was easy for him to say that cause he is not the one whose heart is broken. He told me he is hurting real bad too. He says he thinks about the pain he is causing me all the time. He says he hates hurting me, but doesn't want to spend the rest of his life miserable either. I told him that I am trying to be his friend, but that he has to act more responsibly towards our son and his spending. I reminded him that I don't bother him when he goes out with OW, only when he does something against our agreement. He agreed.
I am very confused right now, I don't know what to do.
-I know that when I back off or act like I have a life outside of him - he does react - he tells me that he misses me etc... but there is no change in sitch.
-If I am angry at him or call his bluff - he reacts by being more honest about his feelings, telling me that he doesn't know what he wants yet etc...
-Do I keep ML with him? This is a very powerful connection between us - one he admits he doesn't share with OW.
-How do I act like I am just his friend? Doesn't that send the message that I am okay with him and OW? That I don't care enough to fight for him? One of the miscommunications we had is that he thought I didn't really care that much about him.
-should I agree to one of us moving out? He said that it might be a good idea cause then he would see if he can be happy without me or if he is fooling himself?
-should we live together but I spend a LOT less time with him? Leave him alone in the room instead of sitting with him the whole time? Stop sleeping in the same bed? Stop always being there to support him? Will this make him realize what his life will be like if I am gone -without really leaving??? Won't this make me seem bitchy or uncaring?
I have so many options, and so many of them are opposite of each other. I have tried so many different things, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. In the end we are still in the same position we were at the beginning of this mess....
I am both a W and an OW at present, so I realize that in a way I'm the "enemy" and maybe you don't want my response, but apparently that is not going to stop me.
Little disclaimer: IF you are following DB rules, I want you to know that I am NOT familiar with them. I did read DB years ago, but I've forgotten most of it by now.
Loosing this prize of an H may be the best thing that ever happened to you, just like my H losing wayward me would prolly be in his best interest, too, but let's put those GLARING facts aside for now.
Okay... you are super concerned and confused about "what to do" and how to "play" all the million variables involved. What if it DOESN'T EVEN MATTER? I personally think that WHAT you do or don't do is not nearly as important as HOW you do it. You are finding this out!... you yourself just said that you have tried to play this many different ways, and the results are UNPREDICTABLE. So, guess what? No matter what you do from now on, the results are going to be unpredictable!!! So you might as well stop stressing, because this thing is not totally under your control. While you are strategizing, so is H, and (trust me!) so is OW! Believe it or not, even your son is strategizing.
So you can focus all your energy on "what to do" (strategy) which is complicated and maddening and kind of demeaning, OR you can focus all your energy on doing what seems AUTHENTIC to you.
That means BE YOURSELF. Authenticity is VERY appealing. It's like a magnet. Why does everyone love Oprah? She's authentic. She bases her words and actions on what is in her heart and soul, and she TALKS to people openly and with both strength and vulnerability, confidence or uncertainty, depending on HOW SHE REALLY FEELS. Why is she so successful in whatever she does? She's authentic, and it draws people to her causes.
The cool thing about authenticity is that you always know EXACTLY what to do. Always! Because the answer is always "I should do what's in my heart, I should do what feels right for me." Now, strategizers will say "Bad advice, you can loose the war by doing what's in your heart!" True, but you can also loose the war trying to do what you THINK will work, or by "going by the book," especially if you really can't pull it off or aren't consistent! And you can definitely loose by driving yourself crazy over how to "play" every little battle, and losing site of the war. You cannot have a normal life OR win this war, agonizing over how long to sit with H in the living room!
By contrast, just being Authentic is CENTERING, it will keep you in BALANCE. It may win or lose this war, but guess what? Either way it goes, you will be able to say to yourself "I did it MY way!" If you win, won't that be a nice feeling to know that he came back to YOU, to your authentic self, without you having to play strategy games?
I am about to enter grad school, for psychology. TRUST ME, I could play some sophisticated strategies to try to win my OM! Mind strategies AND practical strategies. It's tempting! But, I asked myself a year ago... "If I LOOSE, do I want to have to say to myself "I wonder if he would have chosen me if I had just simply come accross as MYSELF?" NO! I do not ever want to have to wonder that. So, I just keep coming across as ME, with both my H and OM, and they are both still around, go figure, without a single strategy in place.
Authenticity doesn't mean you can't strategize the DB way, or any other way. You can!! If you authentically decide you want to put your authenticity on hold while you committ to "A METHOD" of relating to your spouse, fine! Is that what you want to do?...
If so, GET YOUR GAME ON PROPERLY, at least! You do not sound like you are calmly following a prescribed game plan... you sound like you are "winging it" from situation to situation, and NO strategy is going to work unless you plan it out IN ADVANCE! So if you really want to "strategize" (and that is the kind of advice you seem to be asking for!) then I think you should read DB again. Carefully. Map out a PLAN. Stick to it. If you were doing that, these questions you have would answer themselves. If you had a plan, you would only be coming here for support for what you ALREADY KNOW TO DO, get it?
Whether or not to ML with a man is probably THE most personal decision a woman can make about her body and her emotions. And you are willing to decide whether or not to sleep with hubby based on how effective it MIGHT be as a relationship STRATEGY? And you are calling the OW a "whore?" Please. Your H is the whore, and both you and OW are sleeping with him. Except she doesn't KNOW she is sleeping with a whore, and you do.
Do you ever think maybe you have lost a little soul to the "strategy" method, when you could probably get him back just as easily by being disarmingly AUTHENTIC?
I do not ML with my H because I am in love with OM, and it would cause me too much conflict to be close to my H while having those feelings about OM. I do not ML with OM either, for lots of reasons. One, he does not wish to leave his W for me, and I love him deeply, so I do not want the pain of having to loose him after ML. It is already painful enough, without that! Two, I am having this affair openly, because I do not lie to my H, so I have caused my H enough pain, and even though OM and I have "made out" with eachother, at least I can say to my H "we did not ML and aren't going to" which is at least something.
If my H were having an affair, I would be just as upset either way, whether he kissed or ML to another woman!... but everyone is different, and my H tells me it is very important to HIM that I do not ML with OM. Third, I have selfishly taken enough from my OM's W, without ML to her H. Fourth, I do not want to increase my OM's guilt and level of betrayal by ML.
I am not saying I am good or noble because I am not ML to either man in my life right now. NO, I am a cheating "whore" whether I do that or not, I realize! BUT what I am saying is that I make my decision about ML based on my heart and soul, not based on a strategy that may or may not "work". If I knew FOR SURE that ML to OM would win him from his W, sure, I would sell out my "authenticity" in a heart beat and jump in the sack. But, I do not know that for sure, so WHY BOTHER to do something that goes against my grain?
I suspect when you ML to H you have mixed feelings about it now! Also, how do you feel to know that he must disrespect you a bit for ML to him? Even though he would deny that, isn't that what he is saying when he says "how could you ML to me knowing that I ML to her?" Sure, he is saying to himself "Wait a minute, do I really want a W who would lower herself this way? Do I really want membership in a club that would have a cad like ME as member?" Meanwhile, he respects his OW because he THINKS she would be history if she knew he was ML to you.
This is getting too long! I just wanted to say... EITHER just be authentic, or cooly strategize. Either option is fine, but PICK! You cannot be truly authentic worrying about strategy, and you cannot strategize unless you can be COOL or at least do a good job of pretending to be cool. Yelling at someone for an hour is not being cool, unless that was part of your strategy, and if it was, you need a new strategy.
EXAMPLE of what I mean:
"Do I move out or continue to live with H?"
Authenticity: Do I enjoy living with H these days? Do I still feel good about it? Does it work for my life right now? What's best for my son? How do I think I would feel, living on my own? I know my H better than anyone... What does my gut tell me about how moving out or staying here will affect my M?
Strategy: Hmmm... the research shows that couples who separate and live apart have a much smaller chance of actually getting back together than do couples who remain in the same household. I better try to keep the bastard under my roof.
And by the way... the research really DOES show that, so if you are strategizing, stay home, and keep him home, too.
